Chiropractic Student Listener Success Story 1 Geronimo69 Minutes - May 8, 2019
Recently I asked if some student listeners would be willing to share their experiences of how they use the information they learn on this podcast within their schooling.
I posted the request on Instagram and had a flood of people ask to be on the show to share.
So, I thought it would be interesting to spend some time over a few months on learning what the listeners are saying!
I learned a few things along the way :)
Hopefully this interview is empowering for you as well.
Thank you Geronimo https://www.instagram.com/geronimo10/
“ ... with every single one, you\'re going to take some nuggets. I think more importantly what I got from this is here’s this doctor who has been out 10 years who seems like someone who runs a very successful practice who gets to talk to all of these big names we will call them, and he is still learning at all times. You can be Sebastian.”
Sebastian: Interesting, I would not have thought you would have said that.
We’re having an extra special guest on today and this is going to be a student. I will let him tell you all about himself, but this is someone who has been listening to about 90% of the podcasts I have released, almost 140 podcasts; he’s listened to a ton of them, so what I’m interested in is how has this improved his schooling experience or how he is going to practice in any shape, form, or fashion.
My goal is to get improve how they practice sooner than I did. I did not improve my practice in regards to improving my patient outcomes significantly until about 5 years out of practice. There’s a lot of things that I know now that I wished I would have known while I was in school. I am hoping to share all that stuff and if you have listened to a lot of the podcasts, I’ve showed a ton already, so now I kind of want to see how things are going and how’s it been improving things on the other side. So, I’m having a series where I am going to start interviewing some students (chiros, PTs, athletic training) and just see how things go, and see if I can improve my services to you guys and see where I need to improve my content as it gets to you guys in the upcoming episodes.
I think I’m going to have one on roughly every month, roughly every second week of the month on Wednesdays. I already have a few lined up by the way.
I’m going to pitch this again just because I know it will change your practice career ... if you\'re a student and want to know how to use corrective exercise or how to use loading or resistance training, or where to patch things in someone’s care like when they need tissue work, adjustments, or when do they need pain triggering reduction, when they need first aid. I’m going to go through all this stuff that I have learned through people I have interviewed, as well as all the workshops I have been to. I’m going to do a workshop of my own. It’s my very first one. It’s June 8th and 9th in Huntington Beach at my own clinic. There’s only 20 spots and I think as of right now, there’s probably 1 left. I don\'t really do good bookkeeping on this, but for the most part, there’s not a lot left. So if you\'re interested, direct message me on Instagram, performancehb, or just email me at email@example.com.
To be honest, this whole workshop was not my idea. I had some of my classmates mentioned “hey let’s all get together and do some CEs, by the way, why don\'t you put them on?” So I said, “Hey, that’s a good idea.” They\'re like, “Why don\'t we do at Draft Picks over in Whittier where we all used to go to the bar after going to school” and I said, “Well we can\'t do it at a bar, but we could do it at my office and we can have steaks and beer after.” So I put it all together and only had a couple of my classmates sign up and I realized that I think the listeners would like it. So this is how it started. There was scaled pricing in there and extra early bird and so on. I realized the top level was $500 at the door; I just want it to be a party honestly, hang out and learn from all of you as well, so I didn\'t really want to charge much at all, but when I started learning what all the CE cost to actually put on and it becoming a thing and I had to present also what I present to you guys, it became work is the point.
If I do this workshop again and I don\'t know if I will do it again, it’s going to cost more. So if you\'re looking to save money and learn shit that’s going to change your way of practicing from me and all the stuff I’ve learned from all the people on the podcast, please attend. I really want to shape the profession and this is probably the easiest way. Honestly, a lot of the students who have shadowed me, they want to learn all of these things but they\'re learning it in bits and chunks in like a 4-hour shadowing session. If you don\'t crash course, just come. I would love more students than clinicians come to this, but it’s going to be a good time. We’re going to have Tomahawk steaks, beer and whiskey, or whatever afterwards.
Every time I share a little bit about my personal story or rant, so I’m going to share that right now. Back in the day growing up, I did not have a ton of money; we were not poor or anything and we definitely had money to survive, but I never asked my parents for a lot of money. I was not taken care of that way; although, my dad might tell you different, he was like, “they were spoiled brats” but I didn\'t really ask him for money; I didn\'t say “Dad, give me two hundred bucks” or that type of thing. So I grew up kind of frugal, so there was one time that I bought a card for somebody and I took a piece of paper and I wrote on the paper and stuck it in the envelope and didn\'t seal the envelope and put it in the card.
When they got the card, they read the piece of paper, and the card was blank and I said, “here’s the gift that keeps on giving. You can just return that and get about five bucks back,” so ... it’s kind of like you know, it served its purpose, but you don\'t really need to write on the card; I was not going to keep the card and they were not going to either, so it was just going to be a toss-and-throw-away, so ...
Also back in the day, I used to draw cards; me and a friend actually used to draw on them. I remember I think it was his birthday or Christmas, I forget, but you would do a rap in the card. Again, I used to draw my own card, do it on paper because I like drawing as you have seen, so anyway, we’d do these raps, so if I can find one I will actually do it on air; he might have some but I thought they were pretty clever. They were like 30-second raps, real cool. Okay, now onto the content.
Sebastian Gonzales: How’s it going?
Student (Geronimo): How are you? I just got out of the wet lab with the cadavers.
Sebastian: I was going to say, wet lab? Sounds messy.
Student (Geronimo): Yep ... cadavers.
Sebastian: Are you still wearing your smock and jacket too?
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, it’s like a white coat sort of thing, but we didn\'t really touch anything today. I’m only in the third week, so it was just the professor showing us stuff.
Sebastian: Really? I remember just reeking like formaldehyde.
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, it does smell in here.
Sebastian: Oh you\'re at school in a little room over there?
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I’m in a study room. I think it’s the best way to keep quiet at school.
Sebastian: So what’s up?
Student (Geronimo): I’m real excited as it was good to see you and meet.
Sebastian: It’s an impressive number, 90% listened. I don\'t think I have heard 90% of my own.
Student (Geronimo): Yes, I have definitely gone through everything in 2018 and 2019 and since 2017 most mornings, but you didn\'t put them out early enough.
Sebastian: It goes 4:00 Pacific.
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, school starts at 7:30 and I live an hour away from the school, so it gave me an allotted time to listen to podcasts.
Sebastian: Maybe I should start doing them at 3:00.
Student (Geronimo): (Laughs) That was one of the things I wanted to mention on the podcast was just to communicate with you because I like your podcasts so much because when you start off with the stories and stuff like that, it makes me feel like I know you, and that automatically makes the podcast like I need more to use for patients and stuff like that.
Sebastian: Thanks. I have wondered, as I’m sure you have heard over the course of the years that I have done them in a different style, but I remember in one I sent the interviewers one for review and they were like, “Why did you put that in? No one cares about that,” and I said, “I don\'t know. It feels right.”
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I think it’s really cool. I mean there’s one like you\'re singing and stuff like that.
Sebastian: That was an old one (laughs).
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, but like if I’m on another podcast, I have an ad reader and because you can do a 30-second skip, but with yours I don\'t do that and I didn\'t think about it until you wanted to do this podcast and I started thinking about the different things about it and I was like I really like him because it was like I was listening to a conversation instead of somebody just speaking to me I guess. It’s so different than like an audiobook or something like that. I like your audiobooks too or like a 5-hour long podcast or whatever it was.
Sebastian: Man, I tell you ... I think that audiobook was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
Student (Geronimo): Was it just one take?
Sebastian: No. With these podcasts, I don\'t really edit much. I mean there was a couple I clipped out a little bit because it was like an ongoing something else, but that one was ... do you remember PopCorn in school ... do you have PopCorn?
Student (Geronimo): Yeah.
Sebastian: You can\'t change the story at will, so it was kind of like it had to follow. As I started to read it, I realized I could have written it better because it was not full time, so I had to ad lib a little bit. So that one I had to actually send it to a professional audio person and he took out the clip points, but he did a good job, and it was cheap too by the way in case you ever want to do that.
So actually I did not tell you, we’re recording already.
Student (Geronimo): Okay.
Sebastian: I have found in the past when I’m actually speaking to people like you, some of the really good stuff is in the pre-recording, so I was going to give you the opportunity to cut it out, but I think the communication was good so I am going to leave it if that’s good?
Student (Geronimo): No that’s good. It was one of the things I wanted to talk about anyway. I just think that’s probably one of the most important things we do, just being able to communicate it. It can lead to so much buy-in and lead the patient into wanting to do the at-home stuff. If you don\'t communicate correctly, it’s so hard. That’s why I heard the recommendation when I was an undergrad was not go straight into grad school and go work at a clinic because one you don\'t have to put in $100,000 minimum, so you can make sure you like it, and two, just to kind of feel more comfortable. I think the biggest thing I got from it was I was in the rehab portion so when the patients came into the clinic, I was working 30 minutes with them, so I was running 30 minutes with them. I got so good at communicating, no matter how good I was at doing the actual rehab stuff it was iffy, but the communication with me--I have no problem talking to somebody and explaining to them and especially because it was graduate school stuff, it’s not like I had this big terminology of all the medical stuff. It was just attempting to speak in my own terms and layman’s terms, and I’ve learned it, and I think that was the best part about it and that’s why I really recommend it to students, or even if you\'re in grad school with shadow, you should try and get as much time in front of people that are not your peers. If you\'re out of work, go and do a case where you\'re bringing people in and telling them you\'re going to speak about low back pain or go to a PT that works at a CrossFit gym who does low back pain and it’s usually people in his class. When I signed up it’s like $10 and I go and learn and listen to what he’s saying, but he’s speaking it in layman’s terms, and I think that’s the part you don\'t get in school because it’s a lot different. That’s the hardest thing I think is getting from school to getting out.
Sebastian: I do too actually. I will come back to this one in a second. Tell everyone your name and a little bit about yourself.
Student (Geronimo): My name is Geronimo. I’m a quarter one student at Palmer, Florida. I initially was going to do PT, but I was told to get a job to make sure before I went and invested all this money and I ended up getting hired by a chiropractic clinic that was doing a lot of rehab, but it was a lot of cookie cutter rehab. Unfortunately for me and the patients, I did not get a lot of tutoring or showing what to do or anything like that, but fortunately for me, I got in and I joined a bunch of clubs on Facebook, I listened to your podcasts, I read McGill’s book and lots of other stuff, and I just got better. I think that was one of the biggest things for me, how much better I saw myself get with patients in speaking to them, so that’s kind of sets me apart at school and why I’m a little more advanced with certain things and have a little more biases with certain things, especially when you\'re in chiropractics school and how much straight, subluxation, and professor biases you can get which is a little different. As you probably remember.
Sebastian: Yeah, that does not seem like that long ago. That was 10 years ago for me. So you got all that stuff and started doing all this before school then?
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I was probably doing it a month or two before. The more you listen, especially with your podcasts because you had so many people on ... I don\'t know if I heard of Stuart McGill from you or if I had heard it prior and this is what led me to it, because I essentially went and searched McGill on the podcast and I had just listened to every podcast that he has been on. I actually did that.
I don\'t know if I heard it on this podcast or somewhere else, but I did that for Stuart McGill, and I did that for Craig Liebenson, and then lately a lot of the pain science guys like Peter O’Sullivan and Greg Lehman and that part is fascinating to me as well .. the pain science guys.
Sebastian: Stu does a really good job. He interviews really well. He asked me, “Sebastian, why do you want me to call you?” He will call you by whatever you ask and he will call you by name frequently throughout. I think there’s a bit of ... I don\'t want to say coaching with that, but it’s just like for working with people, they resonate well when you say their name a lot. I think those people on those podcasts, the more noteworthy ones, whether they\'re good or bad, they\'re really good at communication.
Student (Geronimo): That was one thing. I recently listened to your Dan John one (#61) and you spent the first 30 minutes talking about communication. Almost every single one of them, whether it’s McGill or any of them, you guys at some point talk on communication and I think that’s so important, especially with all of the ... I would say “lies” being told or things I guess are not a lie, if the doctor does not know any better, but trying to create this independency and I think that’s the hardest part when you come out and have all these loans and it’s hard to remember and you wrote this on the checklist thing, The Things You Wished You Knew In School, ... with all these loans, don\'t forget you\'re doing this for the patient and don\'t try to do these long-care plans and different things like that, and that’s a big part of the communication part is making sure they understand and is something they can buy into, something they can do for themselves and create independent people and independent patients and I think that’s somebody’s part, especially coming out of school, is knowing the communication. Everything else is something you will learn.
Sebastian: I don\'t know if you have experienced it yet, but as you\'re speaking about that, it reminded me and I don\'t know when this became a thing, but I feel like people started to distrust their doctor and their recommendations and I don\'t know if it’s just chiropractics, PT, or whatever, but like whatever you\'re recommending it’s like there’s this unsaid thing in their head and they\'re like, “Hmmm ... my mom told me this guy’s gonna say that and I shouldn’t do it.” But your recommendation should be so pure that it’s like why is this person not compliant?
Student (Geronimo): Exactly. I actually think it’s a good thing for people to be skeptical though, both as students to your professors and to the doctors you\'re listening to. I don\'t think you should take anybody’s words at 100%, especially with the way research works because we’re getting closer to the truth but we’re never going to get to the truth, so it’s just about being less wrong.
Like the stuff you put out now is great, but when you look back 5 years ago, you\'re probably going to look back on some of the stuff you said and be like “Oh, this is completely wrong,” and it’s the truth for you now, and you\'re staying up to date with things, and I think that’s the perfect way, but I think people should be skeptical of anything. I think that’s the best way to learn and the best way to make sure they\'re hearing the correct information.
I am so skeptical with some of the stuff I’m learning now and I don\'t try to make a fool out of myself in school, but I also try to ask questions like where do you get this research from? Where are getting that from? Especially with chiro school, there’s a lot of stuff that’s great and a lot of stuff that’s been around ... and that’s one of those things that I manage to know so much by podcasts and reading before coming into school so that kind of let’s me have a source of skepticism, but also a little bit of bias towards the rehab portion or the independence portion.
Sebastian: Is there anything in school that changed your mind about the preconceived notion was about that one topic?
Student (Geronimo): Not really. It’s just a lot of it right now ... Well, one thing I did find that there are people who are going to come to you a lot and need you, but I also think those people need help. I don\'t think it’s wrong for people who just need you that they won\'t do things outside of the office, sometimes no matter how much you communicate it. I would rather them come to me and me continue to try and grow that independence than go next door to the guy that’s going to sell them 3 times a week for the next 3 months and then 1 time a month for the rest of your life, sort of deal.
Sebastian: I would agree to that. I think in the past I give patients a little more credit to be able to do what’s asked of them, but I think at least the people who come see us, sometimes they get that way for a reason. I do have some that come to me weekly, not a ton of them. I think the last podcast that came out on resistance training as an exit plan of care, like I tend to get them out of the treatment and corrective exercises as quick as I can and then get them into load, and then it just looks like a personal training session with someone who knows your condition or what the condition was, but they enjoy it.
I attempted to tell some of these people to go to a different gym and then in my personal experience, some of the coaches and trainers know what I’m asking for or the program I would like for them, and other ones don\'t. It’s kind of like I can choose to keep this person in office to help them go through the plan that I have laid out for them, or I can choose to educate the other person where it’s like do I want to do that? It might take longer than it’s worth. But I guess that’s going with the referral searches of those who do the job you want to be done.
Student (Geronimo): Exactly. I’ve heard a lot about this and it’s funny because I used to NOT think like this about 2 years ago, that’s all of your doctors, no matter what they are ... chiros, PT, or whatever, that you\'re going to ... it’s not that they should be gym rats, but they should at least know their way around a gym. When I first heard it, I was not actually into going to the gym. I played soccer, but I was more going up the scale, not so much a “good athlete” but I played a lot of it, so I never needed to hit the gym or anything like that, so I didn\'t know my way around a gym so I had this bias to where I was like I can\'t be a PT or chiro without ever doing a deadlift.
Then I got into the job and I wanted to get them to move and I was like how am I going to teach a deadlift if I have never done one myself? Or cue all these things? Even like the McGill 3, which are simple movements, but if you don\'t know what to do or never have done them, it’s really hard to cue them, so I started doing them myself and I realized Hey, I’m not so good at something so simple as doing the McGill McThree or anything like that. I had to go somewhere for somebody to cue me. Sometimes you just need to be cued.
It’s just like when you said you went to Cody when you had the low back pain. Sometimes you just need someone there to tell you and you need to listen and you learn so much from working out on your own body, you learned all that, and this is just not stuff you see in school, at least not in college school. It’s more like “you should be going to the rehab center, it’s free here.” I mean we have a great rehab center and there’s a lot of students who will go through their entire schooling but never even go to the rehab center or never get adjusted or anything like that. I think you can learn so much by being treated.
Sebastian: That’s a good point actually. So when we went through school, we would go to the clinic to help out the clinician you were assigned to in order to get the credits, but it really was not about us. That’s a good point though ... if you go to the clinic at school, you\'re not only giving them some credits, but also you\'re learning the patient experience.
So your school has a rehab area and weightlifting center too now?
Student (Geronimo): Yeah. What happens is the clinic itself is what everybody has to go through their last 9-10 quarters, for us it’s 13 quarters total, the last 10, 11, and 12 quarters you are in the clinic treatment for what I imagine is a very low cost around here, but people can come in and they just know that they\'re getting a student doctor, so I imagine it’s very low cost; I don\'t know what the actual cost is, but anyway, even your significant others and family all can go in for free if you want to be treated. That’s how it works here. There’s a whole rehab side and you have a rehab doctor who is great. I met him on the FDCA webpage and stuff like that and he is an SFMA trainer. It’s one of those things like with you, with him, you\'re always learning and going to tell you fix your own back and stuff, and now you\'re doing a lot of stuff with neurodynamics and you\'re 10 years out of practice and you\'re still learning, and I think that’s how some people get caught up in opening up their own business and forget that, it’s continued learning at ALL times.
Sebastian: It’s hard to juggle both, I know that. Are you going to open your own clinic you think?
Student (Geronimo): It’s funny because at first I was like no way, this is so much work! Then I realized it was one of those things it seems like a lot of work so you don\'t do it because you get scared about doing it. With us, it’s just the way I want to treat, a lot like how you do it ... you know you spend one-on-one time. I just feel like if you\'re going to ask somebody to pay for something, you need to be the one doing it. I don\'t like the idea of a CA, even though I was one, doing that stuff ... you paying x amount of money and you don\'t even get to see the doctor.
So the idea is to open up your own and with a lot of what you talk about, renting a room, and honestly, I didn\'t even know that was a thing until you. It’s just not the stuff they tell you in school.
Sebastian: Damn. I feel like it’s the simplest thing. It would make the best sense to me and I don\'t know if I wrote in that little manual or not or talked about it, but some docs want a piece of your pie. Like I’m of the thought that you just rent a flat-rate room and don\'t touch my business, don\'t screw with me, and if you\'re in with an established doc, like if your buddies just allow the guidance of the business, but some of them are like “No, I’m not going to do flat rate. I want a percentage of your income style thing.” I would just steer clear of those. There’s some dude around who has just a room sitting around.
Student (Geronimo): A lot of the CrossFit gyms, I know because I follow a couple on Instagram, they call them PT, but this guy I know he is out of a gym and he has his own little space out of LA Fitness and then there is a guy that I go to in Winter Park which is out of a CrossFit gym, and he just has his own little space, his own table, and he has access to everything for just a flat rate and eventually I imagine the plan is to open your own little business or whatever, and I know a lot of people, especially in the chiropractics, who gives you so much business; I feel we get a lot of entrepreneurs on this side between chiro and PT because it’s so hard to get an associate job. A lot of the people “tend to eat our young” is what they say, and it’s just low paying, so it just forces you to be an entrepreneur compared to a PT because they come out making double as much and they have such secure jobs like in hospitals or big stuff like that. I think it’s really important to understand that side of it and that’s something we do not get in school at all.
Sebastian: I agree on all points. I think the PTs have more availability to them and they think they are more accepted. They have probably still have insurance coverage clinics and so on, but yeah, if the listeners don\'t know the reality yet ... if you get out of chiropractics school and you think you\'re going to make a living and you think you\'re going to get a job, you better think twice. Because even people who practice like me, I am not hiring anybody. I have interns and I’m not going to hire you. You can rent a room if you want, but I’m not going to hire you.
The high-volume clinics will probably do it, but is that your style of practice or not? But you\'re kind of forced into it and if you\'re not learning to run your own business or at least market yourself, it’s challenging.
You guys probably have it there, we had it at SCU, but I think the school’s rough style is getting you to realize that you have to bring people in. They would say you had to bring two patients in the clinic so you would pay your mom or sister to do it.
I was actually thinking with any of the people that shadow me, and I don\'t want them to think I’m trying to generate money off them, but in order for them to come see me, I want them to refer somebody. I want to see that they\'re willing to work. Because that’s the hardest part ... getting someone to come into your office with your communication and how much trust you have and then collecting money from them on top of that.
Student (Geronimo): It is very hard and so very different because it’s taking money for something you deserve, and that’s the hard part, but at the same time, it’s like I’m not a salesman and I don\'t want to do this, blah-blah-blah, but after a while you have to pay the bills, you have to live, and you deserve money for your expertise.
Student (Geronimo): But if it’s something learned, and what I did learn was Toastmasters. Go to Toastmasters, communicate, and then from there on outside, just go and get in front of as many people as possible and make sure, especially in your community, your name is known in your community. Now, in a bigger city, that might be easier or way hard, like Orlando, there’s a lot of things going on, but you\'re competing with a lot of people because there’s a lot of people in Orlando. That’s one of the hardest things is getting people to believe in you, especially coming right out of school, especially 27 or 28 years old.
Sebastian: Yeah, just grow a massive beard and put grey in it.
Student (Geronimo): That’s one thing you could do (laughs).
Sebastian: So you\'re thinking about doing your own business then?
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, the plan is to talk to as many people as possible honestly. There’s a big associate job coming out of at least Palmer, but I’m not sure if it’s anything else, but they will work at the VA, so that’s in the hospital. It’s very well paid coming out of school, and if you work at the VA long term, you get all the federal benefits, so they would pay for your student loans, but those are extremely hard to get.
So I think I want to work my way towards that, but if that does not happen, it would be definitely renting a room I think for myself, but it just depends on what further options I have coming out of school, but that’s what it’s looking like ... if I could get that VA job, that would be awesome. Besides that, there’s no reason for you to go make 20% of what you could make in one visit and make it all day, especially with how little associate jobs are paid here.
Sebastian: I have had some friends who were associates for like 3 or 4 years and I feel like after they finally ventured out of that, they started business and they were kind of like where I was ... at square one. It was just a delayed process for the safety net of having a little bit of income.
Then you have to practice with the style your doc wants and you don\'t have the freedom with it.
At this point in time, how much would you pay for a session with yourself if you had sciatica?
Student (Geronimo): Oh wow! (hesitates)
Student (Geronimo): It’s funny because are paying technically to see me, and I don\'t know if I felt I was worth it. I definitely say I would be worth coming to see in the first initial consult because I can talk someone through what they should expect. Like last night, I got a call from my mom because she has a coworker with low back pain and she went to a chiropractor and got adjusted but she kept having low back pain and then she went to an MD and he read an MRI on her and she has L4-5 disk herniations and the MD told her she should stop working because my parents clean houses for a living, so she should stop working because she has disk herniations and that job is too labor intensive for her age or whatever and she freaked out, did bed rest, all that stuff. My mom called me to ask me and I had to explain this because my parents don\'t anything about my thing and I called her and explained not only did she probably have those disk herniations for years and she just now probably started having low back pain, but I also explained to her about being independent and finding somebody who is going to find her different things that she can do to get out of that pain immediately, thus control her pain immediately. I explained to her about like in Dan John’s book on his last day alive he wants to be able to go to the mailbox. I took it a little bit further and I said I want to be able to go to the grocery store, get my groceries and carry them inside and put them away on whatever my last day is, and I feel like that should be everybody’s end goal, whether they have short-term goals or not, and that can be a little more aesthetic, but I think your end goal should be that ... you should be wanting to be independent of anybody else taking care of you for as long as possible, and you can\'t do that without exercise, nutrition, and proper sleep stuff.
I think that I could do. I could talk in the initial consult and explain to them and communicate all those things, but to actual treatment, I don\'t think I could decide ... what? I don\'t know ... maybe $100?
Sebastian: Okay, so let’s go down this track a little bit because you might change your mind ... what is your mom doing now? Did she listen to you or did she do what she was advised?
Student (Geronimo): So it was mom’s coworker but she got out, felt better, got more under control, and she thanked me because I sent her the McGill link Back Mechanic and I told her whoever she went to see, let me know how that first consult was and I would tell her if she was headed in the right direction or not, depending on the different things they did in that first consult. Does she feel better? I think so. Whether or not I think she still needs to go out and see somebody?
Sebastian: Does she have a plan of attack? Do you feel like she knows what to do?
Student (Geronimo): Yes, definitely.
Sebastian: And do you feel like she’s going to do it?
Student (Geronimo): I do. She told me herself if she was in Palmer because my parents are about 2 hours away, that if I was there, she said, “I would pay you to work on me right now.”
Sebastian: Well, I bet you\'re like, “Well I can\'t do that, I’m in school, but ... ” I’m going to get to a point on this in a couple of minutes, but what would you think would have happened to her if you did not get to speak with her?
Student (Geronimo): I think she would have ended up with chronic pain. They gave her steroids and told her the next option was surgery, so potentially surgery.
Sebastian: Roughly how old is she?
Student (Geronimo): Around 60 I guess.
Sebastian: We talked about Dan John going to the mailbox on his last day, so if that were to happen and this is just speculating, how many more years would she have been able to go to the mailbox?
Student (Geronimo): Not long at all.
Sebastian: Then how long would she live?
Student (Geronimo): You mean actually live and not just be alive?
Sebastian: Right ... the reason I’m kind of going down this rabbit hole is I had an intern who is now a doctor, Dr. Jeremy Dinkens ...
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I actually messaged him and he’s awesome.
Sebastian: Yeah, Jeremy is fun. Sometimes I have to talk him off the ledge with things, and I’m sure he’s listening, so I do this just to help everyone else out Jeremy, but we were texting a little bit about insurance or no insurance and I was like, “Dude, it’s all about value,” and he was talking about someone who had a back condition or at least maybe I thought it was a back condition, and I’m like “Dude, sometimes they literally cannot have sex with back issues.” They can\'t do so many things they value in life and the price is not a barrier anymore, I don\'t think. From my expertise anyway ... the one that came out today was the podcast which was sports hernia and so I talked about spinal versus hip hinge in L2-L3, basically radiculopathy into the groin area, simulation of groin pain or sports hernia, and so I have had such good success with these types of cases and they literally come in not knowing what to do and they go through the route of the sports hernia and they\'re like, “There’s nothing to do,” and surprisingly on that side too ... so the surgical which they claim is the way to go for a lot of cases, the surgery is actually not covered by insurance.
One guy emailed me and he was like, “Dude, I’m a teacher. I don\'t have $10,000,” and so that rabbit hole of crap they got to go through ... I would easily, if I were them, if I knew what was on the other side, I would pay $500 to $1000 easily for like an hour of time.
By the way, everyone who is listening for pricing for business it’s like this ... You are worth what you are saving that person from.
Student (Geronimo): One hundred percent. I think that’s the main thing, but I think it’s easier said than done. I think everybody ends up doing it, but when you\'re looking at how much your rent might be or when you\'re looking at all these things and have no patients because you just started, it’s so much easier to do the insurance, but I think that’s the same thing as Oh, I have to be an associate coming out. You just have to face your fears and if you really believe in yourself and you should, then you can charge what you feel you are worth and it’s usually that you\'re worth more than you charge in our profession.
Sebastian: Probably. I would strongly agree. What’s the average chiropractic exam over there like for a new patient in Florida?
Student (Geronimo): You tell me ... are we talking about the chiropractic who is going to take an x-ray the first time and then you have your day 1 or day 2 type of chiropractor?
Sebastian: I think we have to consider what is the patient seeing? When they go to a chiropractor and they say the exam is x amount and that is their perception of what is the norm, so I guess let me reform my question ... what do you think the patients think an exam typically is?
Student (Geronimo): I don\'t know, but what I call a lot of these “group-on” doctors where you can actually go and group on and get what they would call an exam and it looks at an exam, x-ray, review of the x-ray, for $40 here on groupon.
Sebastian: 40 bucks?
Student (Geronimo): But the thing is, you never get touched, never treated, and what they don\'t know is on the other side of those $40 is a $4,000 care plan.
Sebastian: Good salesmen aren’t they?
Student (Geronimo): Definitely.
Sebastian: I don\'t know what they have people do in school in regard to history, but timeframe I book an hour and a half, but I take a hour and 15 based on the patient’s questions. I have had Justin Dean on before and we were talking and he was like, “What the hell do you do for 1-1/2 hours? Why do you take so long?” I’m like, “I’m building rapport.” It’s like the first day is not about implementation really, I’m much more on building rapport. I want to give them a chance to get to the end goal and don\'t want them to think I did not take the time, so I allocate the time.
In school, how quick are your exams supposed to be?
Student (Geronimo): I’m pretty sure, there’s an actual fourth test you have to pass to actually get your license ... I don\'t know if you had to this, it’s supposed to be 12 minutes.
Sebastian: Just 12 minutes? Just for regional?
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, so I honestly have not taken it yet, but in order to get your license, you\'re supposed to be able to do the history and everything within 12 minutes.
Sebastian: Oh man, but you don\'t have to write it?
Student (Geronimo): I’m not sure if you have to do like actual notes, I’m not sure.
Sebastian: You better hold it for tests (laughs).
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I know. So but like I went to the clinic and I’m friends with an upper quarter in the clinic and he is completely patient centered and stuff like that and he is someone I really look up to and I went to the clinic and he had to do an entire history on me and I was in there a good hour and 15 minutes, and I would say I’m fairly not in pain ... ever. But it still took 1 hour 15 minutes and I just started blurting out stuff that I didn\'t even think about when I was driving that I didn\'t even think about ever telling him and he was just really good at listening and now out of nowhere, I was talking about this back pain, and the next thing I know 30 minutes had passed. He figured it out immediately and I kind of already knew what it was and stuff like that, but he immediately figured it out, but it took a good hour.
Sebastian: There are a couple of incidences when I had a later shift at the student clinic and if someone is in for a foot problem, but they talk about their thyroid, now all of a sudden you have to chase that for a little bit, so there were a couple of people who had about 10 carrots to chase and they really took a lot of diligence on that family and personal history. Holy shit, I think I was there for 3 hours (laughs).
Student (Geronimo): Really? But that’s the thing ... sometimes you just need to listen and people will feel better, especially when you get into the psychosocial aspect. A lot of the problems you see now is some people just need to be able to be listened to and it’s funny, I saw Tiger Woods winning the Masters and he was talking about the four back surgeries he had four back-to-back years and he said that he actually wishes he had not of had them even though he is playing well now. I saw one of the doctors commented on some of it, he said, “It’s funny all of these years and nobody noticed that his back problems started around the time his life was falling apart, you know with the whole cheating scandal and everything like that, and he had all these things that nobody ever talks about. Like what if his stuff, he just needed someone to talk to him like a human being and not like Tiger Woods, The Cheater, and everything else like that. Like maybe some of these surgeries were unwarranted; I mean he had four back to back.”
Sebastian: Yeah, I’m sure it was a challenging time, so ... I hope he had a therapist at least too.
Student (Geronimo): I hope so.
Sebastian: Man, I would put that therapist on lockdown, like gag order.
Student (Geronimo): I grew up in Palm Beach where Tiger Woods and PJ and all that stuff. When he got arrested, I could not believe that a year ago from being on what they first said was DUI, but then later came out that he was on pain medication from his back surgery. I could not believe the police actually took him in and arrested him, especially in such a small beach town. I was like, “Why don\'t you just drop him back him off again?” I guess not everybody is the whole lockdown and he’s just like a normal person, and I think that’s crazy.
Sebastian: We’re not going to close just yet, but there were a couple of things I wanted to ask you and make sure I fit them in here ... #1 The reason I wanted to do the interviews with the students and I’m going to do a whole series here, I wanted to see how my purpose is with the podcasts. I’m not intending on stopping any time soon, but also I need validation that something is occuring. I wanted to see from listening to this many podcasts, is there anything that was actually helpful to you as you are going through school, and tell me what it is, and the effect, if there was anything at all.
Student (Geronimo): I think the biggest thing I definitely get is that communication part of how you make it seem like I’m just standing in front of you talking while I’m listening to you or I’m listening to you and whoever the interviewer is talking with, the fact that I want to listen to so much, and when I don\'t want to listen to an audiobook after school because I’m tired, I go to your podcasts instead of music because I can just hang out with you just listening and learning at the same time. There’s hundreds of nuggets that I have gotten from it.
Recently off the top of my head is the Dan John one. Another one that I got from you is the Tom Michaud interview with the anterior fall and envelope and different things. In every single one, you\'re going to take some nuggets, but I think more importantly what I have gotten from this is here’s this doctor who has been out 10 years, who seems like he runs a very successful practice, who gets to talk to all of these big names we’ll call them, and he is still learning at all times. You can be Sebastian.
Sebastian: Oh that’s interesting. I would not have thought you would have said that.
Student (Geronimo): You just have to continue to learn and be just like you, and I listen to you and from the hour to 1-1/2 hour interview you will do with somebody like Dan John or Tom Michaud, you\'re going to get a nugget or two, but you\'re also going to be like ... I would never have even read Dan John if I didn\'t listen to this podcast.
Sebastian: I’m so glad you\'re into them.
Student (Geronimo): (Laughs) I would never or maybe eventually met or introduced to Stu McGill; there’s so many different people that you can go after that and I will read their books or listen to all their podcasts, but you just give me a 1-1/2 hour summary of what they\'re doing and how you use it, and then I can go explore everything they have to offer. I think that’s the biggest thing ... taking something from everybody and then creating your own.
I think I took from Stuart McGill is “Mastery is a journey. It’s not a destination.” You should be on a journey to mastery and the only way to do that is fall in love with the process and knowing more about the things you offer, whether it’s solely low back pain or anything else, I can tell you have fallen in love with the human body and you love learning more, and I’m the same way, so I just use this as a “hey, this is what he’s talking about now in his podcast,” or “this is what he’s learned and I’m going to go explore,” and it’s a good gateway to be able to understand and learn a lot more and I love it. I hope you never stop.
Sebastian: I think one of my favorite shows was Married with Children and I think they went 15 years and stopped and I was depressed. There is a stopping point.
Student (Geronimo): I think eventually you might retire, but stay in Huntington Beach though.
Sebastian: Yeah, I don\'t know where I would go. I know at least one of my goals for travel would be to make enough in life to where I feel like I could fly 5 hours or less and stay there for 3 or 4 days and then continue, not only because I don\'t like long flights, but also because I want to acclimate to the time zones.
Student (Geronimo): Fair enough. I don\'t know if you have read Why We Sleep, but I think between that and Don John’s book, those were the biggest best life-changing books that I’ve read. I have to get 8 hours of sleep now. If anybody is listening to this and wants to read to the book and does not want to spend the 15 hours on audio, Joe Rogan has a podcast with the guy that wrote Why We Sleep. He’s a sleep doctor I think that teaches out of UC Berkley now, but out of Harvard. It’s a 2-hour podcast and pretty much summarizes everything, but after reading it, you will honestly not sleep less than 8 hours a night. It’s so important.
Sebastian: I will have to listen to the 15-hour book on tape route. Nice. Good for you. It’s not what I expected you to say at all, so that was helpful.
The next question is if I were to change, improve, or add anything to the podcast in the next upcoming 50 episodes, what do you think I should do?
Student (Geronimo): Oh wow. I don\'t know if I would change anything. If anything, I would say release them a little faster than once a week.
Sebastian: That would be horrible for me (laughs).
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I know, it’s crazy because I know these are like an hour long, so I’m sure this takes up a lot of your days.
Sebastian: I do them in bulk actually. This one actually I’m going to slide right in the middle of a bunch that are already produced, so it’s going to release on May 8th. I’m about 6 to 8 weeks ahead on most things, and it makes me feel very good knowing that I can just take my time and set up a good time to work with people and interview people and so on, but honestly, I feel like I’m running out of things to share.
Student (Geronimo): You’re always learning more things though and I think that’s another thing, there’s more people to interview, more things to talk about at all times. I mean I’m not the one talking for an hour every week, but that’s just me, but I feel like you\'re always coming up with other things.
Sebastian: Who suggested this? It wasn\'t you. You didn\'t suggest the student interviews, right?
Student (Geronimo): No, it was not me.
Sebastian: Okay, I think someone else did then and I was like “that’s a great idea, let’s do student interviews” and you guys are going to chew up a good week a month.
Student (Geronimo): What about patient interviews?
Sebastian: I have thought about it and I have done some here and there, but honestly and this will sound bad, but if I interviewed the patients I’m working with currently, I feel like I’m not going to be able to relay all the details of their case accurately because I want to forget something because I tend to not read the notes and go off of what I tend to recall. So I might forget all the details like with this lady, she came in after being gone for 2 weeks, and she tends to come in for resistance training and so on, so she went out of town and I knew she went out of town. Well, we were talking about where and it was Portugal and she came back the other day and I’m like, “You must be rested, we’re like almost in the same time zone,” and she was like, “That’s like 8 hours away,” and I’m like, “Wait ... what? Where’s Portugal at?” and I feel like an idiot when sometimes I don\'t have all the details, so I feel like if there was a new person to interview, a new patient, it would be probably easier done for me, but I still tend to screw up when interns come in and they\'re like, “What’s the history of this case?” I’m like ... I can\'t remember anything.
Student (Geronimo): I think one of the markets you have not tapped into is the pain science people. I have not heard them, but a lot of them are in Australia so I know that would be harder, but maybe even like Greg Layman or Annie O’Connor because I have heard some of their stuff on mechanical care on podcasts.
Sebastian: I’m supposed to link up with mechanical care pretty soon here. Also, we have not done it yet, but Greg is scheduled for release in about a month and a half.
Student (Geronimo): Oh cool, that’s awesome. I enjoy hearing him talk and I don\'t know if you follow him on Twitter, but he definitely likes putting stuff out there and being devil’s advocate for a lot of stuff, so it’s entertaining to see.
Sebastian: I will probably let him lead the conversation a little bit on that. I don\'t know if I mentioned it, but we have an online con ed program coming on, so the next 5 weeks, I think right after you, we’re going through the accreditation on stuff and California is being really challenging, but Greg’s in there and he does 2 hours of pain science within that whole module on flexion intolerant backs.
Student (Geronimo): Oh wow, that’s awesome. You mentioned it to me, but I was not sure when I emailed you if you were talking about low back pain, the book you put out, the part two with the videos and stuff like that you could purchase and I didn\'t know if that’s what you were talking about or something else, so now I guess it is something else.
Sebastian: Yeah, we get into a couple of things. With the book, it’s the history, but we created this online course which was (you have not had to experience it yet) but when students get out, you end up like Michael Shacklock, neurodynamics, there’s no CEs. So you spend $1200 going to a 4-day course and then you don\'t get your credentialing, but you have to have in most states, like 24 hours a year, and you get half of them online and half in person, but the ones online are not very good; they\'re old stuff. So anyway, we created a better one and that was the goal on that one.
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, that’s awesome. At this point, students and doctors will be on both sides of this, but I am totally for the moment you get into school taking as much as continuing education as you feel possible while still doing your school load. Some people say wait until the later years. I’ve told you that I would be at Phillip Snell’s Fix Your Own Back Pain this summer.
Sebastian: You\'re going to love it, love it. It’s great.
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I’m excited, but there’s a lot of free information out there too. That’s another thing for anybody who is listening, they can message me if they need guidance on where to go look. I have tons and tons of free information whether it’s your YouTube videos, Greg Layman’s stuff is almost all free, his blogs and stuff like that and I feel you should read everything he puts out--he puts out so much stuff, there’s just so much free stuff out there. That’s what I like to do is get through all the free stuff, but also don\'t worry so much about the price, you\'re just investing in yourself, whether it’s CEs or not. I’m definitely going to take neurodynamics, whether I take that with or without CEs that does not really matter to me, it’s just part of being a better clinician, knowing more because there’s always more to know.
Sebastian: Do you want people to email you or Instagram?
Student (Geronimo):They can Instagram me, or message me @geronimo10 if you have any questions if you\'re a student and you want to know more because I can definitely lead you the way. Another thing I’ve really found out is that all of these doctors you think are these big names and stuff like that ... like celebrities ... they are all awesome and they all email back whether some in a hour or some a couple of days, but I have messaged you for instance and you gave me all of your information. Greg Layman emails back the same day. I’ve heard Stu McGill is awesome at replying. It’s just send an email. The worst case scenario is that people don\'t reply, but ask all the questions you can. Most people love talking about this and don\'t get a chance to.
I love talking about all these things. In school, you get to talk about it, but everybody has their own biases and my friends don\'t want to hear me talk about low back pain.
Sebastian: That’s a fair point (laughs).
Student (Geronimo): I think a lot of people you need to be able to bounce ideas of each other just like you said when Cody was living over there and you guys would just hang out and talk about that stuff. Some people don\'t have that. I mean people are not on an island with different clinicians, so join clubs, email, all these doctors you want to know more about, but the worst case scenario is they don\'t reply, but most of them do.
Sebastian: I agree. I think most of them do replay. Dan John at presentations he gives out his cell phone number and if you call him he will pick up. I think a lot of them are very humble about that kind of stuff. You\'re right about getting together. Do you know Ben Ramos?
Student (Geronimo): Yes, well I don\'t know him, but I have heard of him, especially from your podcasts.
Sebastian: So Ben’s about an hour and a half away from me and so we took neurodynamics together and there’s no one around for about an hour that knows it and I have forgotten some, so we’re going to get together next week and hang out, eat a Tomahawk, and practice. So like you guys gotta get together and practice with each other because the skills go away and you don\'t get to really break down all the technical aspects of it to get better if you\'re with patients because nobody likes to pull out a book when they\'re working with a patient.
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, I would say join clubs, Facebook groups and stuff like that. There’s more people around than you know. From your podcasts, I saw Grant Elliott on Instagram (he was on here talking about Instagram and stuff like that) and he ended up posting he was moving to Tampa, so I messaged him because Tampa is only about an hour away and we were going to get together once he gets all settled in to his job as an associate down here, and I’m going to soak up all the information I can from him, especially because there is a ReActive Performance Club here in Palmer, Florida, and he was the president of ReActive Performance of the whole entire thing actually, and I mean he’s got so much information, and hey practice on me, let’s talk, hang out, and he was totally for it. He was like, “Yeah, anytime, let’s do this.” Especially because he’s not going to know anybody in Tampa besides the people he works for.
That’s another drive for me. Don\'t let an hour drive or being scared to send an email or maybe spending a little more on con ed stuff. I see people not wanting to spend the money for a seminar and then going and taking out more student loans to buy a car or something. I’m like really? Did you need that new car? It just depends, everybody is a little different.
Sebastian: But you look good. You look good with the top down. Yeah, but he is moving there. If people don\'t follow Rehab Fix, please follow them. Circling back, Grant is really good at communication. He’s been so successful on Instagram. If you look at how he presents ideas that can be complex, he makes them very simple and very actionable for patient. I don\'t know if you have heard the term “the money is where the eyes are” and so he currently has like 50,000 eyes, so he’s going to have a very successful practice once he’s not an associate doctor and he will be perfectly fine. If you don\'t want to communicate, you will never get the chance.
So anything you want to ask me before we close up? Or do you want to take the mic?
Student (Geronimo): No, we talked a lot. I got to know you and I guess I would like to thank you for the opportunity and thank you for this podcast, it’s awesome. I hope to be able to get out to the next time you do something else out at your office, but that’s mid exam week for me, so I’m definitely not going to be out there, but that’s another thing, if you\'re in school, I would say plan your vacations around different things you could do. Like I’m going to Fix Your Own Back Pain in Portland and I’m in Florida, so I’m going to do an extra day and see Portland, but I’m going to spend most of the time just learning and then that night I can go see Portland. Anything I plan on doing for the next 3 years is going to be planned around all that stuff, so the next you do it, I will probably be going to see southern California because I’ve never seen it.
Sebastian: Well thanks. I don\'t know if I will ever do it again, but we will see what happens, but as I’m finding writing it, it is taking more time than I thought. I don\'t know how I’m going to speak for 12 hours.
You have hit a couple of things in here I’m going to reference: you mentioned the write up, where was that write up The Things I Wish I Knew in School?
Student (Geronimo): It’s on your website.
Sebastian: Just type up “things I wish I knew when I was in school” in the search bar.
Student (Geronimo): It’s on the show notes of one of your podcasts by the way, but I can\'t really remember.
Sebastian: Everybody should get that, it’s free. Just go in. I was drunk on a plane and wrote it. If you find any spelling errors in it, tell me. In addition to, you mentioned Fix Your Own Back and I don\'t get any money for mentioning this, but if you literally want to have the best confidence and you can communicate really well with patients when you are confident and know what the hell you\'re talking about and so when you go to Fix Your Own Back; although, it’s centered around one certain type of pathology, you\'re really damn good at it, and you would be surprised at how far a flexion intolerant back can create a symptom like hamstring tightness, or IT band issues, or even flank pain, even sports hernias have a correlation there with the spinal hinge. If you want to be good at that kind of stuff, which probably people would look for you as a chiropractor for, go to that, it’s cheaper than most seminars you would go to and it’s really damn good.
The other half, I know you have not gone to neurodynamics yet, Michael Shacklock, it’s the other part basically. It will change your practice, and so much confidence will come from both of those.
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, and the only thing I think I would add to that is don\'t forget to go to the ones that have the core of like neurodynamics, Mckenzie, all of those are really good to know, but you go to the ones where they put it all together; I think that’s something. Like Greg Layman’s course, I have not been to it, but from what I understand, it’s not so much learning, but learning how to put all of these different things together and I think that’s really important because I know a lot of people say they come out of Mckenzie’s course and all they can do is Mckenzie or neurodynamics. Then all they want to do is neurodynamics. So go to courses that kind of put it all together and just talk to people.
Sebastian: I would agree. That’s actually one reason why the workshop is happening (the one I’m doing) is putting things together. I know people like going to seminars because their friends go and they like hanging out after.
I think that’s all the questions I have unless you have anything else you want to say.
Student (Geronimo): Yeah, that’s it for me.
Sebastian: What would be on your grave stone?
Student (Geronimo): (Laughs) What would be on my grave stone? Gosh, I don\'t know ... Um, disk herniations don\'t cause low back pain alone ... something like that.
Sebastian: Wow, they\'re going to be like this guy is an orthopedic.
Student (Geronimo): What would be on your gravestone?
Sebastian: Hmm, under promise, over deliver.
Student (Geronimo): Oh, you have thought about that.
Sebastian: (Laughs) No I didn\'t think about it.
Student (Geronimo): (Laughs) I would not have anything great like that.
Sebastian: After doing as many rants as I have, I have a couple of default stories just sitting in the chamber (laughs).
Okay, that was Geronimo. Thanks for being on. Like he said, you would be surprised how many people respond back, so if you\'re looking to improve yourself as a student clinician, he sounds like he’s got a lot of stuff figured out and a lot of free stuff. Check him out. I will put a link in the show notes to his Instagram handle.
If you\'re a student who thinks you have a unique thing to share about your experience about how you think the podcast has changed your influence in school or the way you might practice out, I would love to hear about it and I would love to hear feedback about how I’m doing. I don\'t know how many times I will do a student interview, but if there is a popular response, I will probably do them a lot more, but I learn more all the time, especially because I had no idea he was going to say that, but for the most part, whatever you say, I will take it to heart, and let’s see if we can improve this podcast together.
If you\'re dating, date an Eagle Scout and leave people better than how you found them. See ya next week.
Spending 3 Days A Patient In My Home
I had a friend come stay with me for a few days for an low back evaluation and stay in treatment for...
Mistakes Using Exercises As Rehabilitation Part 3
PREMIUM PODCAST LINK (for Clinicians only) In this week's podcast I discuss the second batch of the ...
Olivia Recovered From A Shoulder Labrum Repair
Olivia's Blog Post on the 5 stages Olivia reached out to me on Instagram and said.... "Hey man, you...
5 Simple Modifications For Lower Back Pain While Weightlifting
PREMIUM PODCAST LINK (for Clinicians only) In this week's podcast I discuss some simple plug-in modi...
Chiropractic Student Listener Success Story 1 Geronimo
Recently I asked if some student listeners would be willing to share their experiences of how they u...
Off Loading MSK Pathology 1st Hour
Recently I was asked to record the first hour of Theory of the Off-loading Chiropractic continuing e...
Hitting A Mental Roadblock In Creation Of Content
I recently hit a small road block in creation of my workshop (Off-loading MSK Pathology) and had to ...