Corrective exercise for knee pain beyond resistance bands

This is session number 74 of the Performance Place Sports Care Podcast. You gotta get a little mud on the tires. Welcome to the Performance Place Sports Care Podcast, where you can learn about sports injury theory, rehab, diagnosis, and how to understand the doctor lingo you didn't understand at your appointment. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey everybody, thanks for joining in again. This is going to be an awesome podcast. I'm Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, and I'm going to have on a great guest. His name is Dr. Scott Dunaway at ChiroStrength.com, and he is the living embodied version of anything but Brad.

He's not Brad Paisley, but he looks like Brad Paisley. And I know some of my friends will tell me I look like Brad Paisley, but he looks like Brad Paisley. So, I thought it would be a very fitting introduction to do a little mud on the tires right there. So, Dr. Scott Dunaway is actually in, he's groundbreaking, I think, when it comes to social media in regards to chiropractic as well as sports medicine. I hate to just pigeonhole this chiropractic. So, what he does is, he does a very awesome job with his videos, and he seemed to really figure out how to get a good audience on Instagram. So, it's at ChiroStrength on Instagram.

And his videos are amazing. They're great. They're short. They're subtitled. They're good. So, when I reached out to him, I thought, hey, what would you like to talk about? Because you have a lot of great content here. Let's just see what you have for the audience that you think would be helpful. What do you think would be a really good thing to talk about? And we kind of brainstormed back and forth. He's a very nice dude. And we actually text a lot now. So, I think I got a good friend out of this, and that's always a bonus of doing podcasting. So, we actually came to the conclusion that, since this is knee month, that we should do a little bit of knee stuff.

And it's kind of hard to narrow down, as you're going to see over the course of the month, to actually talk about only knee stuff. Because the knee is very correlated to the hip, the ankle, the foot, the core, stacking patterns, and so on. But we thought that, since it's really common for people to get band, resistance band, theraband, stuff for the knee, that we should call this one beyond the band. And it's not that there's not a use for the bands, but we're going to be brainstorming a little bit about going back and forth on what's beyond the band. What is the next step? Because a lot of times, people will stop their rehab at the band.

Now, you're going to learn, in this podcast, how to be careful with coconut oil. In case you didn't know, there's a really big thing you should not do with coconut oil. And before we actually go into it, I'm thinking about his story. It was a good story. So, you should hang in there for that part. Before we actually go into this, I want to make sure to remind everybody that you need to go to the review section, if you can, for me to enter the t-shirt contest. You get a t-shirt, if you do a review on this podcast, tell me what you like, what you don't like, what you want to hear about, if it's changed your life, if it's helped your patients, and so on.

And just shoot a screenshot, send it to info at p2sportscare.com, and I will put you in the monthly drawing for that. Next is, also, too, if you're a new clinician, since I know a lot of clinicians, sports docs, strength coaches listen to this, if you're interested in some of the educational tools. Like, I did have someone from my graduating class actually text me this morning. They said, hey, you know what, can I use your podcast with Dr. Stuart McGill, number 67, as part of my email, monthly email to my patients. I said, yeah, great, cool. Do you want a direct URL? You know, what else do you want?

So, I have a bunch of videos, posters, podcasts, and much, much more that you can use to educate your patients. To find the posters, they're info at p2sportscare.com slash shop. There are going to be some promotional things I'm going to be doing throughout the next couple months to actually give away some for everybody, because I want everyone's feedback to make sure that I'm making the right stuff, because I'm making them for you guys to share with your patients. So, I need to hear your voice about what you need. I know what I need. I know the way I practice, but I don't know everyone else's tips and tricks.

Like, I did learn something the other day that actually people wanted to see a head on the seated how-do-you-sit graphic that we did for the wall. So, got no problem with that. I put an ear on it, put a plumb bra right through the shoulder, right through the hip, and that's the end of it. So, if it's going to help you guys out with your patients, I want to make sure that you guys are giving some feedback for it. So, let's talk to Dr. Scott Dunaway and learn what he has to say about going beyond the band with knee rehab. Okay, everyone, I have an interview on with Dr. Scott Dunaway. Hey, how's it going?

It's going good, Doc. How are you doing? Excellent. Thanks for joining. I know you're going to... Where are you going again? You're going to St. Louis? I have a wedding to go to, yeah, in St. Louis, Missouri. So, that's about a five-hour trek north of Nashville because we're stopping off at the parents' house and drop off the dogs. Oh, yeah? It's... Yeah. I never realized... So, it's actually St. Louis in... There's another St. Louis, right? There's an east and west St. Louis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, St. Louis is in Missouri and it's just right on the border of Illinois. So, when you go over into east St. Louis, you're in a very different city.

That's what I think. But there's that riverboat casino that is like... That is on the other... Technically in Illinois, yeah. Okay, that's the Illinois site. I remember when we crossed over, I thought, like, this is... Like, I feel like I'm in a desolate area now all of a sudden. I thought this was St. Louis. Well, we... I'm from Cape Girardeau, Missouri. We have that same kind of thing. We're right on the Mississippi right there. So, you have Cape Girardeau, you have east Cape Girardeau. And pretty much what happens in east Cape Girardeau, east St. Louis is, again, a very different atmosphere than what happens actually in the city.

But it's a cool city. It's really cool. Yeah, I went to chiropractic school in St. Louis. So, that's where I spent 2009 to 2012. So, Cardinals won a World Series at that point. So, it was awesome to be in that environment up there. So, you're a Cards fan now. What team is close to actually Tennessee or Nashville? Is there? You know, there's not a lot of... We have a AAA team here, I think. It used to be the Brewers AAA. Now, it's the A's AAA. But as far as teams, people are either Cardinals fans, Braves fans, or Cubs fans. You got that kind of... It's in the middle of Atlanta and St. Louis and Chicago.

Mm-hmm. A lot of National League. Actually, the Cards are National. National League. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A whole lot of National League. So, the reason I wanted to have you on today was because we were talking about knee rehab. Specifically, I know we can take this in many different ways. So, don't be afraid to go to different joints. But we were talking about kind of going beyond the band as in regards to rehab. Because you got a lot of good stuff on Instagram. Appreciate that. Yeah. So, I will put a link to that, by the way. So, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, but also let everyone know kind of how you started to practice a little bit beyond the band?

Awesome. Yeah. So, my practice was kind of just formed by me learning lessons the hard way. Because I went through chiropractic school really interested in just in general how the body works and more specifically kind of why it breaks. And so, I took a different approach than just the skeleton. So, general chiropractics, general chiropractically speaking, we had took a lot of x-rays of the spine. And then from the standpoint of doing adjustments to the spine, I was never really in that model. I was full body certified in active release techniques before I ever graduated chiropractic school. So, I was always doing a lot of soft tissue work as opposed to just the adjusting.

And then just by doing more soft tissue work, more shoulders and knees and stuff like that tend to come into play that traditional chiropractic doesn't treat as thoroughly. And so, based on the need to do that, I just kind of started going down the rabbit hole of corrective exercise. And whether it was through Greg Cook or whether it was through Perry Nicholson or through some other kind of active therapy style practitioners, whether it's PT, chiropractic, strength, conditioning coaches, it kind of molded into what chiro strength was well before I opened chiro strength. And so, I spent first three years of my practice in traditional chiropractic practice as an independent contractor trying to shove that square peg into this round hole.

And it just never worked. So, under the same billing scheme as they were doing, I was doing 20, 30-minute visits as the guy was doing four visits in 20 minutes. And so, it just – I learned lessons the hard way. So, it took me about six months to realize that wasn't going to work. But then I kind of worked through my contract to just get a little guidance because from a business standpoint, he was a good mentor to have. So, I think in 2016, January 2016, I had a grand opening chiro strength. So, I kind of developed a model that wasn't around me at the time, developed a model that I could practice like that in an environment that would allow me to mesh that soft tissue work with chiropractic and corrective exercise.

So, that's kind of how it came to be. So, when you – then when you started your own, is it because you saw that there was a void of people practicing this way and treating patients this way? Or is it that you wanted to kind of venture out on your own? I'm – yeah. It was a little bit of both. So, I – anytime I do something or don't do something, it's always about what feels most right to me. So, whether I can comprehend something that you're saying. So, that's why I don't do acupuncture. I know acupuncture is very, very beneficial and I get that it's been around for a long time. But in my head, I can't connect those dots between energy, meridians and stuff like that.

It just doesn't make sense. So, I have friends and coworkers that do acupuncture that I can send them to so I don't try to explain that to people. It was easy for me to explain the biomechanical model of why I need you to have glute engagement for your knee to be better or good foot stability for your knee to be better. I can make those – connect those dots and whether it was learning those corrective exercises or learning underneath that umbrella. It made a lot of sense. So, when I opened ChiroStrength, my desire was to have much more of an active clinic, much more kind of bridging the gap between fitness, which I think is like the true medicine, fitness and passive therapy.

And so, getting somebody off the table and under a barbell, it was kind of – there's a big void there for most people. And so, that active therapy style was what I really wanted to do because I found myself not liking to lecture but liking to teach and kind of educate people and see that light bulb go off. Like, ah, yeah, that does make sense. Instead of the old – the vertebrae twist like this, so I'm going to do this and then you're going to feel better. It's like there's a lot of steps that they don't really understand but patients usually will say, I'll take your word for it. But I don't want them to take my word for it.

I want them to understand that. So, I could explain that model and it wasn't available to me at the time. So, I couldn't go in underneath with somebody. So, just kind of blindly just went through that whole process and here we are today. I get to see you on day one probably. You're like, okay, like I have to create all my own systems and I have to be able to – like how am I going to explain this to this person? It was so – not terrifying because ignorance is bliss. And you're like, oh, I just got to figure out how am I going to get their money and how am I going to schedule them and how am I going to contact them not from my cell phone?

And once I figured that out, it was like, okay, so I have a business line. I have an email. I have a website. I have a way to collect money. All right, let's do it. And it's been a lot of things I would have done differently if I were to do this again. But, I mean, like I said before, I don't learn very quickly. So, I learn by mistakes and it's turned out well so far. It's funny. I think we've had the same – like I laugh because like all the stuff you're saying, I'm thinking that was the exact thing that I did too. And even like your thought process of going from passive therapies to active is like what – like my vision was.

But one of the big things I did wrong early on was I used my cell phone number as the office number. And then people still get a hold of that. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to sound like an ass, but I'm like don't call my cell. It's not because I don't want to talk to you, but it's because you're driving all of a sudden. You can't schedule them, right? Yeah. Oh, I've done that before too. It's like you're sitting there, you're having a conversation and all of a sudden you're like, all right, I'll put you on a schedule. And then obviously something else happens and they walk into your office and you're like, huh, okay.

Yeah, this is completely my fault. So, here's what's going to happen. Well, I saw you – so now you're kind of moving towards – you said you're doing a lot of educational parts. I see that you're doing more of like an e-medicine, you call it. Yeah. Can you explain why you went that way? I know we haven't jumped into knees yet, but let's just say like someone with a knee injury, what do you think they can learn from something like electronic medicine? Yeah. Yeah, so it's a really cool idea and so you've got to get out of the mindset of the medical model when you're talking about kind of the education because I don't use words like plantar fasciitis or meniscus tear or AC.

I just – when you're talking about e-medicine from a standpoint of what I do, it's all about, all right, here's how the knee, for example. Here's what the knee's responsibilities are and here's how it can perform those correctly. So based on that, if it's not performing correctly, we've got to figure out what joint isn't doing what it should be doing. So instead of going about it from a standpoint of diagnosing an injury, they can take care of a lot of – so let's kind of back up a second. Let's say I wake up one morning and I'm going down the stairs all of a sudden I have a terrible knee pain.

No traumatic accident, nothing like that. It just kind of – I don't know where it came from. Same thing can be said for a back issue or a neck issue or anything like that. When you go into a doctor or whether that's a PT, a chiropractor, a medical doctor, you have zero idea of what's going on. All you know is you have pain. So where I see this E model coming in is whether it's a PDF or you go through an E class or you do a consult with somebody that can help you, at least when you – what you can do is you can take care of a lot of low-hanging fruit. So you can understand how the hip and the foot affect the knee and you can kind of self-assess and go through some movements and see, well, yeah, my big toe extension really is limited.

And so while – unless you're in significant pain and you have to go in because you can't move, if that's the case, you probably don't need to be doing e-health. But if it's just an annoying thing that's been around for a long time, you can take care of a lot of the low-hanging fruit from a mobility, stability, movement standpoint. So then whatever is left over when all that dust settles, you can go into your doc now and say, okay, here's what I felt three weeks ago and here's what I've done to this point and here's what's still lasting and here's what helps and here's what doesn't help. And you can start to learn how to communicate with the doc on a better level as opposed to just saying my knee hurts and just wherever that goes, it goes.

So from a doc standpoint, when a patient comes in – and this is going to kind of be a double-edged sword because when you say an educated patient, oftentimes the education they have is completely off base. But if they come in with an understanding of I've cleared these symptoms by doing this and this seems to be helping and this seems to be hurting, it makes treatment for that doc that's going to put their hands on them a lot easier because there's a lot less variables involved now. And now they can just really attack the problems that are kind of left over. Well, so then how do you get people to learn about – let's use that in the analogy of walking down the stairs.

How long does it get – how long do you feel like it takes them to fully understand the reasons why this could happen? At least we're talking about overuse or recurring types of injuries. That's a – how long? It could be – I'm sure that's your struggle over there, right? It is. So for people that have good movement literacy and body awareness, they can get it right away because if I'm – if I have them go through a squat and I say, I want you to take this squat. I want to take you 10 seconds to get to the bottom of this squat and I watch them do that and they're very knee dominant. They can feel that on their knees and I just kind of tell them, be aware of where you're feeling this when you do this.

And then if I can just tell somebody to kind of push their hip backs and engage their core and they – and in their body, they can internalize that cue and actually make it happen, which is not everybody. They can really start to feel the difference of shifting weight from their knees into their hips and appreciate the fact that I'm still able to do this movement and I still feel pretty good. But now I'm not feeling my knees. I'm feeling my hips. And that's just a real simple concept for them to be like, oh, if I can load this area, it's going to take stress off this area. And that will apply to low back, neck, shoulder, everything.

And so there are people, whether you call it a coordination issue or anything like that, there's just – they can't take a drink and walk at the same time. They just aren't very – they aren't very – Teenagers. Yes. And so you try to get them to do what I just described and it's just kind of foreign to them and they can't internalize that. And they hear what I'm saying, but they end up not being able to go through the movements that I'm describing. So if they have that good movement literacy, which it just takes practice, it's almost like taking somebody that has naturally good mobility as an athlete and you try to put them over a golf ball, it might look really awkward at first.

But if they have the ability to get in the right positions, they can learn the swing pretty quickly and it might not be great, but at least they can perform the movements. But then you get people that are just real stiff and not very fluid with their movement and that right there has to be taken care of because that's a skill. And that's why I always talk about movement is a skill. Stretching is a skill. Strength is a skill. And it's all about being able to understand how to get in the right positions and load those tissues properly. So it really depends on the person and not everybody – and nothing works for everybody.

So a lot of people aren't able to – it takes them a lot longer to kind of grasp that idea. And you might have to go through A through Z worth of – well, try this and then try this and try this. And eventually it's going to click with somebody depending on how they're internalizing those cues. And so that's why it helps to kind of have a couple backup plans and a few more tools in the toolbox to kind of work with them with that. So you said something there. You talked about position and then load. So can you explain in the knee model why position is first and then load? From a standpoint of just movement in general or as far as the kind of a static structure of the joints?

Well, because I know a lot of people, they – let's just say we're talking about squatting or walking downstairs. Like it's – Okay. Let's just say squatting is the easiest thing. Yeah. So it hurts to go through full range of motion. You said you can get them to load their hips a little bit more and blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden it isn't hurt anymore. So that's a positional change, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So then I'm sure there's a lot of people too. They're like, you know, I'm just going to tough this out. I'm just going to go in and I'm going to do squats. I'm going to do step aerobics, whatever it takes.

I'm just going to work through it. Yeah. So you were saying that then a position is more important than working through it or applying repetition or load, right? Mm-hmm. So I think where I usually have this conversation, it's more of a conversation of people being told what good form is from a visual standpoint and not being told what good form feels like. And so there's a difference between that internalizing a cue and just having an external cue of get your butt back and knees wide kind of thing, right? And so when I'm talking about position or something like that, I think most of the poor positions with squats or something or deadlifts or bench or just in general breathing, it usually comes from someone hearing a cue that might be a good cue but interpreting it differently.

So how they display that movement once they internalize that cue, it's just something – there was a missing link because it looks terrible kind of thing. So the keep – don't bend from the spine is a cue that you hear with squatting and keep the spine neutral. And what a lot of people will internalize is keep that spine vertical. And a vertical spine and a neutral spine is very different if you're moving from the hips. So if they're trying to keep a neutral spine, they'll try to keep that chest up as long as possible thinking vertical is neutral. And so they'll descend straight down as opposed to sinking back into the hips.

And so if you can get them into a good position, that's great. But even if you get people in a good squat position, you get them – if I can just talk people through a good squat position, we line 10 people up on a wall depending on past injuries and bone structure and their experience with exercise. Someone's going to feel it in their back. Someone's going to feel it in their hips. Someone's going to feel it in their ankles. I mean it's going to feel it in a bunch of different spots. So I really try to use that term internal cues a lot because we can get you in a good position, but then it's in this position I need you to hold this tension here and here's kind of how we do that.

And we start talking through whatever that position is, whether it's a squat or whether it's a dead bug or whether it's something like that. Yeah, it makes sense. And I know that you probably have the same experience then just so everyone listening is that people respond differently to different cues, although we're trying to do the same thing with them, right? So not everyone's the same. I mean, like you said, everyone gets – they feel things in different places, so everyone's very unique. And it can be frustrating. And I remember being – my first – I mean that first moment that I remember being in practice was actually in the other clinic I was in.

And one of the front office staff came up and was kind of trying to go through some stretches with me. And I kind of had her in that kind of 90 and 90 trying to get a good stretch on the posterior hip. And I'm like, all right, no, go through here and go through here. And I'm feeling the stretch where I should be feeling it. And she looks a lot like me. And she's like, I feel that in my hamstring or I feel – it wasn't even a hamstring. It was something like completely opposite. And it made no sense to me as far as how could you possibly be feeling that. And I realized I was just like – and because I was the office worker, I was just like, Gina, this – let's stop.

I got to figure this out. I don't know what to tell you. Like this is impossible. Like let's – and so over time, you just learn as far as – especially in that position right there, I stopped talking about what the torso looks like. I started talking about what the pelvis looks like from a standpoint of getting a stretch because getting people in what looks like the same position, you're right. They feel in a bunch of different places and it doesn't always make sense. And I think, how do you feel a hamstring stretch when your knee is bending? Like that doesn't make much sense to me. Like what's going on there?

Well, maybe it's a misinterpretation of like maybe she didn't know how to describe her feelings too. Yes. And that ends up being a big thing, a big thing with a lot of patients too is that trying to verbalize what they're feeling and it's always kind of hard, especially if you have an extensive vocabulary to be able to say that. I have a good story. Actually, this happened yesterday. So there's this older Vietnamese couple that came in and they don't speak English so they bring their daughter or son in as a translator. So for the guy, I actually had him, I was having him doing carries, right? And he was very resistant of the carries because I gave him like 20 pounds.

He's like, nope. He knew one word. He's like too heavy. So he put it down and I said, gave him a 10. He's like, you know, he didn't fight the 10. So then I wanted him to actually just press the weight into the ground, right? So his daughter translates this whole thing, but I'm in front of him and just kind of showing like, here's where you are, drive it to the ground, right? Because he's shrugging his shoulders. So then what he did was he just kept going like this and I kept telling the daughter, I'm like, no, no, no, press down, press down. This went on for like a minute and finally he's like, so the point is, the point is that I thought I was effective with my cueing, but then through translation or playing telephone, she might not have been effective with her cueing.

Yeah, I mean you're playing telephone with a single person too because they hear the words you're saying and their brain has to interpret that. So it's like that message gets lost sometimes. So there's definitely an art to coaching and that's what comes in as far as figuring out which cue works best. And it gets frustrating. I've been in the office before and I just had to take a step back and just, I think I'm speaking English. I swear I'm speaking English right now and I'm pretty sure you speak English. What's going on here? And it's just, I think we take for granted sometimes as far as being in this model a whole lot that when you're new to the model, something like the word hinge or engage or something like that just doesn't make sense.

Yeah, I've been trying to get really good people away from saying the word core because I asked them, I'm like, what is your interpretation? They're like, well, here, and they point to their belly and back sometimes. So I've been going with pillar or something of that nature. Yeah, something that would at least get them anatomically realized we're talking here to here, you know? Yeah. So since going back to knees a little bit then, what would a rough progression, because I know we talked about band-based stuff. And I know a lot of people come into me with, they have TheraBands that they've been using for the past five years before they broke.

But they're still on them is the thing. So is there a progression that you have to get into them, use them, and then get out of them? Well, it kind of depends. I mean, when we talk about bands, there's a bunch of different kinds of bands. You have the bands. When we talk about knee, mostly what you're talking about is you're talking about the 14-inch bands that go around the ankles or go around the knees. And you see people doing like the monster walks or the lateral shuffle or you see people doing like the banded clamshells, stuff like that, which is all good. And at the end of the day, those are essentially just tools to kind of challenge the body enough to respond well so they can feel if they need to get their glutes firing, their glutes firing.

And you put a band there and they don't let those knees cave in. That's a good – they don't have to think about that and they can just keep that position and they'll kind of – automatically the body will adapt and start to get into a better position. But what I found is if you – taking someone from a rehab model to where they're doing low-level stuff with bands, especially those little 14-inch bands, and then you try to have them get into an off-balance, like an inline lunge or something like that, that doesn't have a whole lot of carryover. And when we're walking, that doesn't have a whole lot of carryover from the standpoint of being on single leg and it's a very specific skill.

Oh, there you go. I guess my phone just fell over. Sorry, buddy. I know what chandelier you have. There you go. So the – if we talk about the body functioning like a skill, balance is a good example. And this is why wobble boards and stuff like that kind of overdo their welcome in the context of rehab because they've done a study before that was – it was a balance study. So whether you're balancing on a BOSU ball, balancing on flat ground, balancing on a balance beam, on a slack line, on one of those – whatever you call them, the things that kind of have a single cylinder here and you kind of try to wobble on it.

Those surfing ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So – and what they found is if you're good at one of those, it doesn't necessarily make you good at the other one. So balance is a very specific skill. So that's why for knee rehab that is on a lot of BOSU balls and stuff like that, it doesn't really carry over well to that stability being on flat ground and being able to transfer force through that ground where you're nice and stable. So the bands themselves, they do serve a purpose but I think once you get that – again, that internalization, what it feels like to have the glutes active, you can kind of take that out of the equation now and start making things a little more dynamic or skill-based work.

Like instead of doing monster walks, really challenge yourself with some kind of single leg deadlifts or even being on your side and doing a lot of side plank work and working with your body weight would be a better approach than just trying to now before every single time I squat, I just have bands to warm up or now every time I have pain, I get on the ground and do banded clamshells. And I think a lot of times there's that disconnect, again, we've talked about between rehab and performance and whatever performance means, whether it's performance in a sport or performance just in everyday life, whether you have to carry around a newborn baby or whether you have to be up loading crates and stuff like that at work, that those bands, once you get out of that rehab model and you get underneath – you get out of that very basic isolated style of activation, I don't see tons of need for it.

But then again, the 41-inch loop bands that you can pull down and use as kind of a good resistance for pull-off presses or pulls or pushes or presses or even the thicker bands that allow you to suspend weight and do carries with and stuff like that, there's a lot of use for them. But I think from a standpoint of knee rehab, they're an educational tool at best from a standpoint of the body learning how to hold weight properly or be able to engage certain joints properly. But I think that's pretty much where they should be left. So you're just – you're talking about basically changing the vector of the band.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I totally agree, by the way. Mm-hmm. And so you spoke about – I guess there's two points. So number one, actually, you said ground contact or being able to drive off the ground. Yeah. Can you explain why that's needed in a knee case? Yes. So obviously, you're only as good as your foundation, right? So we talk a lot – I see a lot of people doing hip stability drills like single leg deadlift or any single leg variations, but there's no balance because that foot is – it doesn't have good communication with the brain. So taking a step back and having that proprioception conversation.

Essentially, that foot and ankle has 33 joints, and each one of those joints kind of speak to the brain as far as here's how much weight's here and kind of here's where that weight is traveling through this joint. And then when all those joints are communicating properly, the brain can kind of – well, the brain and body can make modifications or shifts in weight to keep you balanced. And when that foot is either locked down and doesn't move very well or there's past injuries and there's a dampening of that signal or that proprioception back to the brain, now we're talking about a foundation that has these gross overcorrections.

So you have someone do a single leg stance balance, and they're sitting here, and their whole body is twitching like this. They're flinging their arms up, and they can't just stand on one leg and make those minor little corrections. And so if – when that is the case, a lot of times what you'll see is people when they, for example, do a calf raise, they don't have good ground contact, and they'll always roll over to the outside of the foot because the rest of the foot is not used to engaging and keeping that ankle stable. So as you come up, there's kind of a pocket of stability that you can just kind of hang out in without having to stabilize an ankle very much.

And what that is, it's kind of that ankle inverts a little bit and just kind of sets on ligaments. And that ligamentous end range is where you kind of just set, and you'll see people where the heels are much wider than the actual toes, and they're actually not even on their big toe knuckles at all, and they're all on the outside of their foot. And that usually carries over to gait, and so if they can't – if they don't have that ability to be stable through the foot and have good ground contact, whether we're talking about a squat or we're talking about a gait pattern, what they'll end up happening is they're not used to pushing off that toe with good ground contact.

So what they'll do is turn their feet to the outside like this, and now as they push off, they're still able to push off this part of the foot, but now they've kind of eliminated the need for it. And so the body will find that path of least resistance. So you will – if you take that kind of gait and that kind of stability into strength training, then you end up really training a compensation, which over time will put a lot of stress through that knee with tibial torsion and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. So just to make sure to clarify for people. So it sounds like then – so it's important to train ground contact.

Yes, yes. And a simple cue real quick with that, a simple cue with that ground contact. Let's talk about in the context of a squat. Okay. And this is where cueing the knees to be wide is not going to be a good cue because wide knees, you'll go wide, but you'll kind of roll the outside of your foot as well. So I got this one from Chris Duffin who's with Kabuki Strength, and they put on great seminars as far as powerlifting seminars, and they call it rooting, so rooting into the ground. And I'm going to use my hand if – well, imagine this if you're listening. How about some – you do plexiglass right here.

Take my word for it. You can mime it. Yeah, right. So if you think about the big toe knuckle, it's the contact of that joint before you actually can kind of move your toes. The big toe knuckle and the little toe knuckles are two spots that need to be grounded at all times during a squat or during a single leg deadlift. And then you have your heel. So you have three points of contact. And all three points of contact need to be rooted into the ground during your movements so you have a nice, good, strong, stable base. And as soon as you start to roll to the outside of your foot or come up onto your toes or fall back onto your heels, you lose some of that contact, and you can't produce as much force through those – that kind of minimal contact.

So that's what I mean by good ground contact. So I think about – I tell people to envision this in their head of having sensors on those areas, and so you want those sensors to all be equally pressed to the ground. So if one starts to come off the ground, think about it like turning red, and then you kind of just try to put it back down, and sometimes having a visual cue to kind of think about that allows them to kind of – and it's funny. Then you all – their eyes are open. They're going through this, but you can see they're completely inside their own body, and they're not really worried about what they look like.

So it's really fun to kind of see those cues drive that movement. Have you used a – I know back on the band topic is – have you used bands under those or under the contact points before? Yeah, I've used bands. Yes, yes. So I'll take a band under a kettlebell and kind of pull it under their big toe if they tend to fall out, or I'll take two business cards, and I'll just put them underneath the big toe knuckle and little toe knuckle, and I'll try to pull both of them out at the same time. And so just to kind of – it's a fun little game, but bands, that is a good use for a band for sure. Yeah, that was a good segue into it.

Yeah, exactly. There's plenty of uses for bands. It's just a matter of how you use it. Well, that's cool. I definitely agree with you with the contact and everything. I say tripod foot and then drill it into the ground, but obviously different cues for different things. So you spoke earlier about one of your examples was moving crates, and I just envisioned the rotation of the knee or the rotation of the limb. And I know that I've found or I've struggled with getting people to realize why we're training – like I did have a lady before we were training – basically had a turn, standing turns. Yeah.

And she's like, when are we going to do something for my knee? And I'm like, we're doing something for your knee. So can you give some examples of maybe exercises or rehab stuff that you would do to prep someone for real everyday life like moving crates? Yeah, so when you talk about – specifically moving crates, you brought up rotation. So let's talk about rotation in general. So if the body is going to move to meet the demands that you're placing on it, right? And so again, it's going to find the path to lead resistance. So let's say you have a big block and interrotation of the hip, right? So the – you can't – you walk with your toes out all the time and you can't really bring the toes in.

And when you bring the toes in, that movement doesn't happen at the hip, but more of that movement happens at the knee. So typically when you have a knee pain or a knee injury, especially with meniscus tears, it's because there's too much motion there because it's not being shared throughout the rest of the body. And a lot of times that motion comes from the hip. So when I have someone with a knee issue and they have pain walking or turning or they're pushing off and they have pain with that, I'll talk about doing hip internal external rotation in a hip flexed position and a hip extended position.

So one of my favorite hip internal rotation drills, which is really important, and if – for example, and again, we use a couple examples here. If you have a lack of hip motion, obviously that's going to create more torsion at the knee. But you also create a lot of strain and things like the obliques that also help move. So the hip being a linchpin there, the internal rotation is often limited in a lot of people, just like hip extension, especially if you sit. And so one of my favorite drills, if you think about getting on your back and putting your feet against the wall to where their knees are bent to 90 degrees, maybe a little bit more than 90 degrees because you're going to end up sliding those feet out.

And you take either your fists and put them together, and so there's about a six to eight-inch gap between your knees. And you just put a little pressure between your fist or a yoga block or a ball. And then what you end up doing is you end up with your feet flat on the wall, and you end up walking those feet out away from each other. So you still keep a little pressure in the block, and so you end up developing this internal rotation at the hip. And because you're on your back, you'll really be able to notice when you run out of internal rotation. And you can appreciate by trying to keep a little pressure into that block, you really feel that in the hip.

And that's – you can either do that with your knees bent or slide up all the way to the wall to where your butt's against the wall and the feet are – the heels are pointed towards the ceiling. And you can also try to point those toes in. And a lot of times when you try to do that, what you'll see people do is – imagine being on your back, butt against the wall, feet towards the ceiling. You'll see people use their ankles to kind of invert and get that internal rotation as opposed to getting it from the femur. And so you'll be able to see in real time where people try to get their internal rotation.

And where they go to first and how they internalize that cue is typically how they try to get that movement in everyday life. So it is kind of funny to kind of see how they try to get that. So just those drills itself will help with the mobility, but it also just helps them understand what that feels like. And so going through that, especially that hip internal rotation as opposed to the ankle motion, allows them to carry over that feeling of opening that hip up now when they're on their feet. Do you have a post on that one on your Instagram by chance? I'm sure I do. I just saw it today. I was there at 711 posts, so I'm sure it's on there somewhere.

How do you categorize those, by the way? Listen, I don't at all. That's the bummer about Instagram. I know. So what I do, I use it as a brain dump, and that's why I started it. So I'll come across these drills. Essentially, every time you get in with a patient, you're freestyling to a certain extent. You have these assessments that you do, but then based on what the provocative factor is or what their demands are outside the clinic, you start kind of freestyling these stretches or these activations or these programs. And so through whatever scenario we have, we end up coming up with these little modifications of an exercise.

There's nothing new in rehab. There's nothing new in exercise, but you end up coming up with these little cool modifications. So I just – whenever I do that, I would normally forget about it because you come up with stuff and you end up forgetting about it. So Instagram is becoming that brain dump. Oh, cool. So I'm sure I do. I know for a fact I have one on YouTube, and I'm sure there's some internal rotation videos. I know I put an active one on, ironically enough, with a band, with one of those loop bands to try to get some good active range of internal rotation and engagement in internal rotation.

But typically what I'll tell people to do is whenever you're talking about hip mobility, work on hip mobility with the hip flexed because that's going to challenge the mobility a different way. But also with that hip extended or with that hip in a neutral position because a lot of times I see people doing these exercises on the ground. And so there's a lot of hip flexion when you're down on the ground. And then they stand up, and that hip moves very differently when it's stood up in a more neutral position from a standpoint of rotation and from a standpoint of just kind of putting force through the joint in general.

So how the knee and hip function when you're kind of in a tactical frog position, if you will, or kind of that quadruped rocking position. Is that really a tactical frog? I don't know. I saw the name for that, gosh, one time, and I just kind of ran with it. It just, I guess it's, I don't know what the tactical portion of that is. I can't wait to see the parody video of a tactical frog. I know. Just all done up like in Rambo gear and just halfway through the stretch just pulling out a machete. That'd be good. You know, I heard that actually all you have to do to make a patient better is not hip mobility.

You just rub coconut oil on them. Heard coconut oil? I swear to God, like coconut oil, if we would have bought coconut oil farms or coconut farms as well as cauliflower farms right now, or like five years ago, we'd have been rich by now. So yeah, that's coconut oil kid. It is fantastic. So that's most of my experience with coconut oil comes from when I was, I always do experimentations, whether it's with diets or workouts or anything like that. And so definitely did some experimentation with coconut oil. And actually coconut oil has been what now I use for my, when I'm doing any type of scraping or I need some, some kind of lubricant.

And I use a lot of coconut oil for that too. She does make them better. It does. But ingesting coconut oil can get a little dicey. And so we've all heard about like the butter and coconut oil, the butter and tea tea oil and the coffee. And so I would do that. And I still do to a certain extent. But it's, I had a bad experience with it. So if you did not know, coconut oil, when ingested in a larger amount, becomes an extreme laxative. Does it really? I've never had, how many spoonfuls do you take? Oh, there was no measurement at all. And if there was measurement, I probably would have gotten that red flag.

It was just, I took just a teaspoon and I didn't have any butter that day. So I was like, I'm just going to double up on this coconut oil. So I, this was on my drive up to Clarksville. And so I had about an hour. So I drank my coffee nice and slow and I'm getting in there with a patient and I'm thinking, oh, what's going on? I feel like my stomach is upset and I start sweating and I'm starting to, I'm sitting there trying to talk to the patient. And I'm a one man show in my clinic, right? So for right now, I kind of do, I do everything because it's very low volume clinic. And so I can't just say, Jamie's going to check you out.

Nice seeing you. Goodbye. And I sat there and I felt it building up and building up and building up. And each one of my, each one of my treatments are, are like 20 to 30 minutes. And so I felt it pretty early on. I was like, I'll just ride this out. And by the end of it, it looked like I was, my feet were on fire. I was sitting here just kind of hopping back and forth. I'm like, yep, yep, yep. I got checked out, ran to the bathroom and never did coconut oil in my coffee again to that extent. Really? Nope. That's good. It was tough. So did, with the remainder of your coconut oil, did you just, now you just cook with it.

You don't even. I do cook with it. And I still, I still put it in there, but I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. So I'm only going to do mostly butter and just a little bit of coconut oil now. So it's, it's, it's all about the dosage with that one, which is with a lot of stuff. But yeah, coconut oil, if you ever have an issue going, just gobble up some coconut oil and don't travel too far away from a bathroom. I'll do it on my day off. Yeah. Funny, actually, I got something in the mail recently from, it was a class action suit against, so I get my coconut oil at Costco, actually, that big, that big tub.

So I was reading this thing and it's a class action against, against the coconut oil company or whatever it was. I think it was against Kirkland, Kirkland one. So you were entitled to, if you can prove that you bought a tub of coconut oil, you're entitled to do about 30 cents per tub because they said it's not healthy, or it says, it says, if it says, it says healthy on it and someone made a claim that it's not healthy or something of that nature. Like it was like false advertising. It was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in the world. I'm like, I'm going to fish through receipts even if I cared, nor, I don't even agree with it anyways, but even if I cared, I wouldn't fish through for 30 cents on a thing.

30 cents. Yeah, it was kind of funny. That says people are crazy, but again, McDonald's is getting sued for hot coffee these days. So what are you going to do? Yeah. Well, that's why they came up with cold coffee all of a sudden. Yeah. Well, man, that's, yeah, it can be frustrating to try to navigate that garbage fire. Yeah. So in rehab, in the whole rehab realm, what are you most excited about in regards to what you're learning now? There's a couple things that I'm really excited about, and I don't think I, I know enough to know I don't know enough to have an intelligent conversation for a long time.

But I'm excited about the re-emergence, if you will, of the blood flow restriction training, so the BFR that's going on, and as well as the regeneration modalities, whether it's PRP injections or stem cell and PRP injections and all this idea of being able to not just put in synthetic stuff in the body but actually be able to regenerate tissue. And it seems like it's still, for lack of a better word and pardon the pun, in the embryonic stages, but it's really going to be interesting to see where non-surgical interventions are going to come from as far as repairing tears and repairing all that stuff.

Well, I wonder, though, with people that, like, when they have tears, like, non-traumatic tears, I hope that they still seek to improve movement. Oh, for sure. I tell people this all the time. They come in and see me, and oftentimes you're dealing with a tear. I have someone right now that has two tears in a rotator cuff and a slight tear in her labrum. And even if you're going to go through surgery, you have, most of the times, you're going to have to go through a PT, around a PT anyways. And the area that gets injured is never the area that's the problem. So you fix, you put in this brand new part, but it's still in that faulty system.

So it's just a matter of time before it's going to break again. And that's why back surgery is so, well, unsuccessful from a standpoint of five-year outcomes. And they always have to get it redone, because if you don't fix the system that the part is being stressed in, you can get as many parts as you want. And it's going to cost you a whole lot of money, and you're going to end up with terrible advice, like, don't squat again, because your knee's bad. And it's, yeah. Really, your hips or ankles are just bad, or your torso are just bad. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of stuff, and it just depends on what, I mean, it can be such, and that's a frustrating thing, because it's so simple on one end, but it's so complicated on the other end.

And just kind of understanding that the knee doesn't function in isolation, so why would you surgically or interventionally try to treat it in isolation, whether it's with injections or anything, it just seems like the big game here is insurance, and insurance doesn't cover for us to be able to sit there and give people a corrective exercise program, and it doesn't pay for them, it doesn't pay for, I wish insurance would pay for gym memberships, and be able to go to a gym membership, and maybe up the certification level of people that would be engaging with that person at the gym, but it just seems like, yeah, it's, hopefully, if someone needs to go through surgery, they can appreciate the idea of prehab rather than just the rehab.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think a lot of people need to take it upon themselves to educate themselves with stuff like what you have, and then do the work, you know, and if they happen to get something repaired, it's, still, you gotta work around it, because the insurance, luckily, at least the insurance, a lot of times it pays for the actual repair, but, you know, you don't, I'm sure that you have the same experience, but you don't always need the repair, right, I mean, yeah, especially, you see, you see the outcomes, specifically with, with discs and meniscus, so knee surgeries for meniscus, those outcomes are awful, as far as repairing meniscus tear, because we go back to that rotation of the hip and the rotation of the knee, you can't just go and assume that you're gonna fix a non-traumatic meniscus tear, and everything just be fine, there's gonna be, there has to be something that changes, whether it's something you're doing on a daily basis, or the system itself that the knee's operating, it has to change, but I think that's where it, insurance has to change before the medical community in general changes, but then you just, for people that want that type of care, they're gonna have to pay for it, it is what it is, just kind of like a gym membership, you have to make that investment early, so you don't have to make that investment later, because you're gonna make it one way or the other.

Yeah, I totally agree, and, and I, I don't know, I've talked with colleagues about, about this before, and like, you know, like they, like a patient's will approach me, and they're like, how come you don't take insurance? I mean, I take a couple here and there, but, um, I don't know, do you take insurance, by the way? I don't, um, it's, it's, I've, I've, well, I, you can say that, and it's, it's, it's easier, what I will say, it's easier to start off with no insurance, as opposed to try to remodel a clinic around a cash model, because it is, it is tough, and my, I tell people, I have a couple, uh, colleagues, especially those that I graduated with, asking kind of what I'm doing, because everyone wants to implement this kind of stuff into their, into their, um, practice, and it's one of those things to where, depending on what you have available to you, as far as staff members and stuff like that, um, the insurance just, from, at least with a chiropractic degree, insurance just isn't gonna cover a lot of the corrective, and they will to a certain extent, but then you have to have that 15-minute time commitment, or you have to have the times in there, and you, um, and if you're trying to do treatments, and you're trying to do a lot of modalities on top of that, once you start stacking all of these codes, then all of a sudden you have, you're billing your insurance five to seven codes, and now you have to go through a lot of, of hoops to, to figure out how you can charge a cash patient less, not a lot of hoops, but it just adds more paperwork and headaches, so, um, uh, it's, it's, I feel for the people that are in a very successful business, um, in a chiropractic speaking, or rehab setting, um, and, and it's kind of like their hands are tied, because they can't go to this model, because it just doesn't make sense in their clinic, um, both, both with the overhead, or with the time commitment they need.

Yeah, it's really, like, we actually, um, I, I don't have too many people that work for me, but I have a couple, um, and so we stopped really calling insurances, except, like, every once, like, once or twice a year, we'll kind of, like, someone will approach, and, like, so my dad is actually a dentist, and he has a couple people that are, he's in with the unions, and over here, there's, like, longshoremen, and there's, like, um, grocery store workers, and stuff like that, so he's, like, I have a lot of grocery store workers, can you please check their policy? I said, fine, cool, we'll call, so we called, and, like, just from a business standpoint, um, this is what you're going back with, it's that you just can't, you can't supply the care that you want to, based upon the pay schedule, so we called, and they would agree to certain amount of treatments, or visits in our clinic, but their total pay was 25 cents per day, no matter what, and we would have to recoup 20, 25 cents, yeah, cents, and then, then they said, well, you can recoup the $20 copay from the patient, and, like, you, you do, like, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, we do the same, some people spend 45 minutes to an hour here, depends on what their, uh, what their programming is, and that is almost less than minimum wage, and, and it's just, it's not possible for people to get the care they need, if we're dependent upon what insurance pays, that's, I mean, it is, so it's really tough, so I, I'm, I'm, I'm envious of you, because you're 100%, yeah, well, that's, that's kind of, um, I, I do, I have my clinic in Clarksville, and I also do part-time down here in Nashville out of a gym called Nashville Strength Company, and they, they, they get it from a standpoint of, of, um, having, they see it as value of having me in there, because anytime I'm, I'm with one of their, um, clients, the coach that coaches that client is also in on the assessment, so it's, that's, that's the model that I really like, I like, I don't have time to train everybody, I don't have time to do that, but I do have time to give that patient some homework and, and, and show them the responsibility of, here's what you need to be able to do so you can have success in this gym, and trainer, here's what they need to be doing and not doing until they can do X, Y, and Z, and then you can let them loose and let them do whatever they want to do, and, and that, that, I believe, is the future more so than the DCMD model where you're talking about, um, having kind of inpatient care chiropractic in the context of a hospital or a medical facility, um, just because, and, and, and again, we're going back to what we talked about at the very beginning with, I just kind of do what I feel like I can explain and, and just make sense to me and what I like doing, and that passive care model, um, because there's so much skill with, with everything once you, once you are really all the time, from breathing to walking to, to exercise, there's so much skill involved with that, that you can't, whatever you, whatever progress you make when you're relaxed down onto a table, getting something done on you, that progress you make, whether it's soft tissue work or adjusting, uh, it's, if we don't fix that system and, and allow that new mobility to be stabilized and, and used in a coordinated fashion, um, it's just not gonna, it's not gonna work, and it, regardless of how great technology becomes, um, it just doesn't seem like it's a viable option, at least that's what it makes sense in my head, so, um, I know there's a lot of people making lots more money than I am on the other model, so.

Yeah. Well, you can't really fault them for that. People like to get pampered, I think, too, and I'm, I don't, I don't bash any, I don't bash the passive therapy. I just call, I just call, I call it, yeah, so, I know, I call it a 75-25 rule, like, I'm okay with them doing 25% of their passive care, whatever it is, but 75% of the time, do some work, do, do what you're, make your, get your body moving, make it work better, so. Well, you, it's, I use a lot of analogies in what I do, and nutrition, and I, and so, to be fair, and to be, uh, to kind of have some empathy with those people that want the passive therapy, look, I understand that our organic, grass-fed, free-range chickens, and grass-fed beef, and I know what's good for me nutritionally, but I don't stick to that all the time, and I like to go out and have pizza.

Um, so, from a standpoint of, you, my utopian view of what I want you to do, um, you gotta match the treatment with the personality of the patient, more so than the condition of the patient, so if you know that person or that patient isn't going to do anything outside the clinic, then you better have a lot of passive therapy for them, um, because that passive therapy, there's chiropractic, and just every, everything, uh, and whether, whatever style of chiropractic you're talking about, or whatever style of physical therapy, or whatever style of massage, everyone has success stories of people that have failed this kind of care for all this time, and their, their life was terrible, until they came in and got that adjustment, or that dry needling, or that massage, or whatever it might be, and then they were healed, um, and there's also stories of people that have smoked until they're 110 years old, and been fine, so it's like, well, that doesn't, just because it works doesn't mean it's a good approach in general, but I do say all the time, and that's why I have a consultation with every single patient before I see them in my clinic, and I talk to them, it's, let's make sure that you understand and have an understanding of, you're not going to get better by not doing what I need you to do, and if you're, if you don't feel like you're going to be able to do it, you don't have time to do it, you don't have the resources to do it, whether that's a legitimate excuse or not, you're not going to do it, so you should probably go to this practitioner, and I'll send them to a traditional chiropractor, or I'll send them to a massage therapist that's going to, um, that I feel like is going to be able to help them, but I just, I don't want to put, risk my reputation and my style of treatment on somebody getting better by the passive portion of what I do, um, because it just, when you're in a style of practice like you are, and like I am, it just, oh, one sec, speaking of the devil, um, um, when you're in a style of practice like that, it, it demands that the patient takes responsibility, and not everyone's going to do that, and not everyone's going to eat organic, and not everyone's going to do all this great stuff that we know we should do for our health, um, and it's just a matter of matching what they need to what they're willing to do.

Yeah, I, I totally agree, I, I think it's, um, I call it having the tough conversation, like, I don't like doing it, but if, if someone is, is not going and doing the stuff that is asked of them, but also they're not reaping the reward, then I feel like we've got to have an adult conversation about it, you know, and not just like shrug it off, so, and, and it's awkward and weird, and, and I don't personally like it, but I think that's in their best interest, you know. Well, and I think that, that also comes from trying as, as a practitioner, staying in your lane and surrounding yourself with other people that do things outside of your lane, so that patient, it's not like you're, you're turning them away and saying, look, you're, you're either in or you're out, um, but it's, here's what we're going to do, and if you don't think this is right for you, then here's a couple other people that you can go see, and being able to network, and I've sent more people to traditional chiropractors in six months of my practice when I opened it up than I did in three years in my other practice, because it seemed like we were just taking everybody, depending on what you had, and, and in order for me to have that word of mouth necessary to build my practice, I needed people out there saying, yes, it was great, because I did this, instead of, no, I went there, and he, he had me put a broomstick on my back and squat, and then left after I did a little bit of soft tissue work, and nothing changed, it's like, ah, well, yeah, that, that, that's a communication issue on my part then, and there was a few of those until I decided, look, I'm just going to have to, as hard as it is, as a new business, to kind of turn somebody away, it was better for them, and better in the long run for me to be able to get them to the right doctor at the right time.

Here, pause right there for one second, okay? Mm-hmm. Well, cool. Yeah, I think, thanks for coming on, man. Like, how, how can everyone reach you? Do you have anything on, online that people can look at, or download, or content, or something? Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm on Facebook, and I'm on Instagram, and I'm on YouTube as ChiroStrength, you can find me with that. The website's ChiroStrength.com, and right now, um, I do have an e-book that I've put together, like, 44 corrective exercise videos, um, focused mostly on, uh, hips and, and shoulder, um, and then I'm trying to get some other stuff in place right now, um, that are all going to be kind of downloadable PDF-type stuff that you can get on my website.

Um, but yeah, that's, the whole idea is trying to educate people and let them feel like they're in control of their own health, as opposed to just blindly allowing them to outsource their health to someone else. Yeah, I think that's good. I think, I, I really do think the way you're doing it is, is going to be the way of the future. You, you got to empower the patient, you got to educate them, and get them to do some work. Yeah, everyone, it, it helps everybody on, whether it's the insurance company spending less money, or whether it's the, uh, the patient spending less money in the long run, or you, you actually being able to charge what you're worth, and everyone, everyone wins.

You don't want 25 cents? Man, I just, I've, I've, I've ate, I love hot and ready pizzas. I love them. But I think I've, I've had my fill of that and Taco Bell. So I think 25 cents is a little outside my pay grade. Yeah, probably. Um, yeah. Anything, anything you'd like to, anything that you think we skipped that you want to add before we close here? Um, not necessarily. I just, I just, I, I hope, uh, this makes sense to people. And, um, uh, if, if you have any other questions, you can always, I check my email, I can check texts, so you can always get ahold of me at drdunaway at chirostrength.com.

And, um, I think that's, uh, whether you're a patient, go and, and, and have these conversations. Don't be afraid to ask your, your clinicians questions. And as a clinician, I would, don't underestimate what your patient knows and where they've been. And, and I think that it's, if you can help them, help themselves, if nothing else, just have some resources for them to go to and look into. I think that's, um, that, that's what I hope people take away from this. And I hope people start doing a little more of nice. Perfect. All right. Wasn't that an awesome interview? Thank you so much, Dr. Scott, for being on, uh, everyone, if you want the show notes on that, it is p2sportscare.com slash podcast slash pound session, or sorry, no session, just the number 74, because this is session number 74 and shoot him a big Thank you.

Uh, go to power strength.com. You'll find his contact information right there, but he's extremely active on his Instagram. He also does an awesome YouTube channel with the full length videos, because obviously Instagram only takes one minute videos, right? 59 seconds. So YouTube, uh, his are much better and, um, very well polished. I get to say, uh, if I would have known, um, how to be that well polished early in practice, I would have probably done much better than I am doing right now. But, um, YouTube and Instagram, I think actually I never had, I never had, I never spent a lot of time on Instagram before.

Cause when I started 10 years ago, um, it was mainly YouTube was like the wild, wild west. It was, and I put up some videos there and you guys can see them. They are terrible, terrible, and I can see my eyes darting around and I can see I was on this manila, uh, tan looking, uh, backdrop. I remember I was at my kitchen table with these spotlights of yellow, almost. It was really, it was really, really bad, but either way, it's funny. Like people still, they still view those. They still listen to them. And now that all the content is, is as good as I want it to be anymore. Um, it still really does help people.

So although it could be a lot more comprehensive. So Dr. Scott's doing an amazing job with the videos that he's doing. So check his out, search him on YouTube, uh, chiro strength. And, um, before you guys actually go, remember that you can actually find all the posters and, uh, patient educational material being posted daily, daily. You can find it on YouTube if you look up performance place, sports care, or just look up my name, Sebastian Gonzales. Also too, there is a closed group Facebook page that I started, uh, earlier this year. And that's where everything is going as well. That will not fit on YouTube or Twitter or so on.

And if you're anything like me, you don't spend a ton of time on Twitter and you just kind of jump in and out of Facebook groups because they're a little bit more isolated. Anyway, so if you look up modern sports medicine education on YouTube, you'll find a closed group just asked to be added. I'm just making sure that you are not someone who's going to spam the group. I want to make sure that it is a very, um, uh, honest forum and making sure that everybody gets to hear and see some great tools that they can share with their patients. It's not a place to bash anybody. I got to emphasize that.

And I will boot people. I will boot them out so quick if I hear any bashing and so on. Um, cause not all of us practice the same. Um, we have small nuances that make us different. So I just want to make sure that everybody does see that there's different tools that they can use and the other stuff they don't use. Just leave it. Perfect. Now finishing it off, just make sure you leave everyone better than how you found them. And I'll talk to you soon.