Treating Pain Without Touch: Coaching, Compensation and Home Training

Yeah, you can act like you're picking up a 315 pound barbell and still get the same neurologic response and not have as much load. And so that's also the reason why I got one kettlebell, but a whole bunch of bands so that I can have varying loads while I'm doing a sumo kettlebell deadlifts or whatever it is. So, because people are stuck with the, you know, mentality that are like, well, how do I get a workout without a barbell? I'm like, my God, there's so many ways. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales.

Hey, everyone. It's Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host with the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. This is your first time. Welcome to the show. I'm glad to have you here. I'm grateful that you're here. And it's going to be about a 45-minute hour-long format, just as it always is. And let me give you the rough parameters in case this is your first time. By the way, you missed some really good stuff. You should totally go back. Go back into the other archives. There's some amazing stuff all the way starting around 770, 60, maybe or so. The whole point of this podcast is to improve our patient outcome.

And as healthcare providers, we really want to get people better. But the hard part is communicating with these people. Man, I feel like I don't understand what they're talking about sometimes. They don't understand what we're talking about. And there's this whole mishmash of we don't completely understand what each other are talking about. So communicate. May we communicate better. So the whole thing here is that we're all hanging out at a bar, having a beer, and we decided that we're all going to speak on similar terms. That way we can all get to the end result, which is making patients feel better with less time.

So as you're going to hear in that introduction, I had an interview with Jesse Prescott, who is also a podcast host. I told him to get a mic a while back, as you'll hear in the podcast. We just kind of were shooting the shit. This is actually a partial recording of his podcast, the Kokoro Movement Podcast, which I've been on a couple times and have had Jesse on as well. So it's always fun to talk to Jesse. And so we covered quite a bit of topics today, including Justified. What else did we cover? Not Westworld. We covered other things. But we started out on the topic mainly of figuring out how to do the lay of the land with this whole new world with coronavirus and health care and not being able to touch people.

So we started out with a little bit of that. I apologize. There was a little bit of a cut in there somewhere. But enjoy the podcast. As every podcast, we start out with a little story about myself so you guys understand who your host is and hopefully like me so you follow along and learn with me too. So I will do that story and then we'll get right into the show. So recently I've been taking sleep pretty seriously and it's been funny. I have a friend who has this whole phone who actually it's a watch that tells all of his metrics about how he sleeps and so on. And so he's like, man, yeah, I slept pretty bad last night.

So, yeah, I'm going to sleep pretty good tonight. I'm going to really do some good work to make sure that I'm sleeping well and, you know, preparing. So every single time he just sleeps worse. Like so I get these text messages about how bad he sleeps and how it's all red and not green. And so I started thinking about it too. I'm like, how am I sleeping? And I started to think about it more. I started to sleep shittier and shittier. I would wake up at like 2 in the morning and just hang out for like 30 minutes and get restless. And I've never had problems sleeping. So recently I've been trying to do a better job of sleeping.

But it kind of clashes with the job of being hydrated too. I do have a passion for being hydrated. So I think I'm going to start actually stopping my water intake around probably 5 o'clock. So this madness of waking up, feeling hydrated, but also waking up, feeling shitty because he didn't sleep much is not going to be this endless circle. But sleep, I believe sleep is a big part here. I'm 38 and I've never slept poorly in my life except for when I remodeled a house. So don't remodel a house. Don't get too many projects at one time. So that's a little bit about me. Let's get on to the show. All right.

Let's figure out your Zoom. Yeah. Okay. What do you want to talk about? Um, so like one of the things, uh, that I'm trying to get everybody on is like how they're handling our current global panicky, terrible situation, you know, cause it's, uh, because I think that that's a valuable information that a lot of people need because, you know, there's a, there's chiros and PTs and massage therapists and trainers and coaches that listen to my podcast as well as yours. And, and I think this is really important because there's a lot of people that are just like, what do I do now? And, um, we need ideas.

And so that's, you know, I'm trying to get like the leaders of every industry to just kind of talk about it because this is unprecedented. This is something that I never thought would ever just hit me like this, you know, like, so, uh, last year, you know, when I left that CrossFit gym, uh, just for me leaving that CrossFit gym, I lost, um, almost $10,000 of income just because I was no longer in that community. And I was so pissed off about it and I was like, man, nothing's going to be worse than that. And then here we are today. And it's definitely his. Yeah. I don't know. It's a, it's a, yeah, it's a weird thing.

It's, uh, so I think it's a tough decision for a lot of people about, you know, you're, it's like for the, like I call, I'm calling it team USA right now, like not Olympic team USA. I'm calling it be part of the American team, which is help everybody, you know? And for, if, if, if the plan was for two weeks, just to not work and not gather, gather in public places, that is the plan to be part of the team. But then it's like, are you going to, are you going to bankrupt yourself for the sake of the team? And it's, it's tough. Like, like my dad's having tough times. He's a dentist. He can't, like, he can't, he has to touch people.

Um, chiropractors, a lot of times they have to touch people. Massage therapists have to touch everything. You have to, you have to touch people. It's tough. Um, I've been fortunate where I get, I'm still doing some rehab with people, but we're doing it in this big ass park and I can stay like 10 feet away if I want to, you know, disinfect the kettlebells all the time. And, um, but yeah, it's a tough thing. Like even with, I, I, I, I know that other industries have been doing it for a long time with telemedicine, like, um, like hospitals and nurses and things like that, but they don't, there's really not, if you're, if you're a chiropractor, like, uh, there's not not really a good code to bill an insurance, if you're billing insurances, like the reimbursement from what I've seen, I mean, I didn't see any money back yet, but for telemedicine, there's like, there's one code.

I think it's, uh, I should look it up here. Um, cause I know I send it to myself. Uh, let's see. It's, it's, it's a nine, nine code. A chiropractor doesn't know what that is. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, uh, uh, it's an E and M code, but it doesn't even look like it pays more than 50 bucks. If I had to guess, it's not like what your typical, like reimbursement is. And so because of that, like your, your stuff is cut in half, but also too, like if you're not good at managing, like reducing people's symptoms with coaching, then it's not going to work anyways. So I don't know, it's a tough time, but, and, and I don't think even a lot of the, a lot of our board, like even PT board, chiropractic board, um, I don't know if they really have any standards on telemedicine, you know, they probably haven't done any rulings on it.

So it's, it's a weird time, you know? Yeah. And, uh, you know, I don't think they even think about that kind of stuff and like it's, it's, yeah. So for me, I'm like, I'm really relying heavily on my coaching right now. And so, you know, I have, uh, the way that I work is if you have, um, chronic pain, then I just start coaching you because it saves you money in the long run, you know, and they just come in three times a week and we just, uh, do like strength training and corrective exercises from there. And so that's something that I've been really able to kind of transfer online. And, um, work through that way.

And I've been really, uh, working on building my, uh, kin stretch practice online, which has been challenging also because when I do my in stretch or my in-person kin stretch classes, you know, I'm really used to showing them the movement and then, um, uh, like cuing them from there and then walking around and doing corrections. But now I have to do it all myself and then I'm forgetting to breathe and that's really hard. So then I'm just like, try not to panic while I'm going through movements, you know? And so that's kind of what I've been doing. And I've been trying to wrap my head around doing online, uh, consults, uh, and kind of working through that.

Um, but it's just, you know, and then kind of what you alluded to earlier, there's a lot of PTs and, uh, uh, Kairos in my town that are kind of finding loopholes in the narrative in order to kind of keep practicing. And I'm just like, yeah. It's, and I, and I understand, like, I don't want to, I don't want to out, you know, people and I totally get it, you know, like, like I'm, I'm, I'm doing what I can to, to stay afloat and that's, you know, being in the park with people. Um, and you know, the, the, the general thing is like the, it was the, um, it was the ACA or the chiropractor or our California board anyways has said it's strongly advised 14 days you close unless senior, unless you're seeing, uh, emergency cases.

Uh, but you know, a lot of, in my experience, a lot of chiropractic patients are not emergency cases, but there are a lot of people who need help, you know, and they're just trying to manage and get by. So they just advise us that we do, we manage, we do extreme caution, make sure that you're, um, you know, being safe with yourself and with your patients and making sure that everything's really, uh, sanitary, but I, I totally get it, you know, and it's, it's a hard line for everybody. Yeah. And I had to make it, that's a really hard decision to make because I have, uh, I have people asking for house calls and I'm like, and so, you know, really thinking about it.

Um, and my wife is a nurse, so she's on the front lines of all this. And so like, you know, the, the, the standard narrative is that you are, uh, you could be positive for 14 days and not show any symptoms. So why would I go to your house and potentially infect somebody? So then, but then you're flopping back and forth being like, Oh, so now I don't have any income though. So what are we doing? And so that's like one of those things where, you know, like I'm a, I'm like a majority of Americans where I'm, you know, making it month to month, you know what I mean? And I finally, um, I got a job with a hypo two, um, hypo two massage, you know, uh, doctor, doctors, Wes and AJ Greg, they own hypo two.

Um, and, um, I was working with them for massage therapy and I was really on track to like double my income from last year and was super pumped and working with all these different athletes. And then, you know, this just hits and I'm like, man, like I could have saved the whole bunch of money if this would have hit like four months later, you know? But so right now, like I have, I have this month covered and then hopefully a lot of my coaching clients stay on so that I can have next month covered. And then we're just kind of literally playing it like day by day to see where we're going. Because I think that based off of, you know, what's going on in the rest of the world, two weeks is very conservative.

Oh, totally. Yeah. I think we're looking at about a month, a month and a half, two months, honestly. It's, uh, oh, uh, probably, uh, something interesting. Everybody might, uh, I know we're talking about the woes probably for a little bit here, but something you can do is actually, if you, uh, I just actually called my, um, some of our services that we have for like the office, like, uh, security system and internet. And if you ask them, like they're not advertising it really, but if you ask them for some help and say, wave something for a month, they, they, I think a lot of them will. So I think they want you to keep the services, but if you need to keep some things afloat, that might be a good way.

Um, and the rent is the hard part because then once you start thinking, once you start thinking about it, like that's their income, like the building, you know, the building that you were renting from, that's how they're making a living, you know? Right. But then, you know, I had a, I have a, I have a friend that he made a really good point on this. And he said, you know, what's not cool about this whole thing is they've hit the, the government has hit a pause button on some people, but not all. And he said, why don't you just global or, uh, universally pause, meaning rents stop, mortgages stop, interest stops.

Like, so that way our landlords aren't hurt either, but they can give us, you know, uh, they can give us some, some help. But like, I even have subletters and I'm wondering, like, like there's like, I want to give them help, but I don't get any help, you know? So it'd be nice just to pause everything up, interest rates stop, you know, just pause everything, make it, make it okay for everyone to not feel like they have to go get in the struggle and have that hard decision about staying open. Yeah. Cause that's the, that's the one thing too, like the student loan thing, like where you can just get, you can just be declaring bankruptcy and your student loans are like, cool, bro.

You still have to pay us though. You know, so like it's a, it's a, this time where we really need to, um, you know, come together and start thinking as humans and stop thinking about, well, how are we going to make money now? You know what I mean? So like, it's, that's just kind of my, that's been my gripe as I'm going through momentary bouts of panic. Well, you know, you know what, like, you know what I don't completely get is remember the housing crisis back in the day when people were like, I'm going to buy five houses and we're going to turn them over and right. And then they got in trouble and all of a sudden they got bailed out like clean, like clean, like their, their, their credit went down the train for quite a bit, but they got bailed out.

Why is this not happening with like a business right now? Like a legitimate, someone trying to create jobs for society and make a living and work hard. And I mean, I know it hasn't happened yet, but how is this not a better bailout than something like that? Right. And that's kind of, that's what I was complaining about because they bailed out the stock market immediately. $1.5 trillion, you know? And I'm like, man. So there's this other part to the economy that nobody's thinking of. Like, why do we only think about the stock market? Like there's, there's everything. Like, um, there was a pizza place that I worked for, um, back in 2006 to 2008.

And you know, they've been open since 2003, I think, and they've won best pizza flagstaff every single year. And that doesn't matter because nobody has any money. So now all of a sudden this pizza company that was thriving is now on the struggle bus almost immediately. You know, my friend owns a running store. He's having problems, you know, like, cause now everybody's tightening up. Yeah, they are tightening. Because nobody has any income. I've noticed over the last couple, over the last couple of days, people have been tightened up a little bit more, but it's still, I think, I think still it comes down to, you know, value with, with selling.

It's, it's, um, I mean, if your services are still needed and people, I mean, people are still buying stuff, they're still buying Netflix. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're spending money on what they want to. And like the, I know that like we've gone, we've gone more virtual. And so like I had a, I had a person the other day that, uh, had, had back pain. Um, actually it was about a week ago. He was the first one that we did a virtual with because it was kind of the beginning of, uh, we got to close the office. And so he was a new guy. And so we did a tele, uh, telemedicine thing, uh, 85% improvement in one week.

Nice. And, and I have to touch him, you know, like, but like, it's, it's kind of daunting. Like, like, no, I want to go get, you know, I want to go get something done to me or, or I don't have the money for that. Like, I feel like there's still ways that we can help people, uh, if like in the way that we can, but make sure that we have to, like, we have to demonstrate a little bit better about how helpful it could be and how much it's worth their, their money that obviously everyone's having a little bit of a hard time with, you know? Yeah. And that's a, that's a big point that, um, one of my earlier podcast guests brought up is, you know, once all this thing is over, depending on how long it takes, whether it's one month or two months, we are literally starting over as a practice.

We are starting again. And so that's, uh, especially as massage therapists. So, you know, I have a lot of education and I have a lot of experience. So that's what dictates my pricing, but I'm literally starting over. And so is everybody else in the world. So I'm going to have to check my ego and lower my prices a little bit so that people can afford it and start coming in again. Yeah. Well, this whole thing is a big learning curve. And, uh, I think as you probably seen on, on social media and on the internet and people all of a sudden, every, every Tom, Dick and Harry has, of, of, has now virtual, has a virtual program.

And like, I started thinking about that. I'm like, damn, there's more competition. But at the same time, like, can you, do you remember the learning curve on learning that stuff? Like you had to learn how to use a video camera. You had to learn how to edit a video, right? You had to learn how to create a program period. It's tough, you know, it's really tough. So yeah, the whole business adventure is going to be different for everybody. Right. And so that online, uh, kin stretch that I've been doing is a huge learning curve even right now. So, you know, cause I'm using zoom, uh, more than I ever have.

And so what I learned recently is that if I schedule a podcast interview and then, uh, online kin stretch class in the same day, then the, the meeting ID changes. And so all these people were signing into a different meeting ID and I'm like, Oh my God. And then my first one, I was just going through 15 minutes of instruction without any audio. And so people were just like, Oh my God, you know what I mean? Were they, were they raising their hand? Yeah. So, but that's, so I'm doing it on my phone. I have my phone and a tripod, so I can't see what people are saying to me. You know what I mean? So then I'm like, Oh God, I got to figure this out.

And then, so it's just this, so it's one of those things like, uh, like the podcast is a perfect example. Like, you know, I had 30 something podcasts before you came on and you're like, why don't you have a microphone? And I'm like, shit, I don't know. You know what I mean? I'm really glad you got that microphone. By the way, you sound so much better. I know we sound amazing every time. That's why I like having podcasts with you is I'm like, God, this podcast can be so great. Everybody's going to be like, Oh, they sound amazing. You know, so every time I interviews another podcaster, they have their microphone out.

I'm like, yes, it's so good. Yeah, it is. You know, it's funny thing is, uh, after doing it. And so, uh, now I'm in my literal bedroom, like we're set up on a card table right here. Um, and with in the, in the office, we have this little closet room with all this like popcorn on the walls and, you know, Corey, like stuff to soften the sound in here. It sounds creepy, like low, like I don't hear any echo. And actually with editing, I noticed that the, the volume spike is not as high anymore. And I'm checking my mixer and all of it looks the same. So it's, uh, it's, it's weird, but yeah, the, the surroundings and environment and the mic really makes a big difference.

Yeah. That's really funny. And, uh, it's funny because I, I interviewed, uh, Dan John yesterday, uh, for the first time. Oh, I got to get Dan John again. Yeah. And, uh, so I listened to your Dan John interview, which was like, a long time ago, right? Like when you first started, like before it was the restoring human movement podcast. And Dan John was, he was a hard interview for me for some reason. I need to go back and circle back again. Yeah. Cause, and well, he's kind of intimidating because he just has, you know, 40 years of knowledge. You're like, Oh my God, I don't know what to talk to this guy about.

No, but like, you know, when you, when you do, I did a workshop with, with him, uh, or not with him, but I, I, I went to his workshop and we were talking at like the bar and dinner and stuff. He's the nicest dude. Like he's just, it's, it's interesting to see like his, like the next interview I want to do with him. Uh, I want it to be on like figuring out what makes Dan John tick really, because he'll ask you, he asked you like before the workshop, he, it was to, it was the chiropractors and healthcare. And so he asked questions. He's like, what do you guys really struggle with, with your clients?

What do you notice people hurting themselves doing? What's the common story? And so, yeah, I was wondering like, cause he's so habitual. It's like, is he doing that every single time to learn his audience? Um, and even like standing, like I was up front with him, like helping him sign some books beforehand. And, uh, he's like, man, I get really nervous before I did. I'm like, you still get nervous when you do this. You're so good at this. Your dad jokes central. So he's, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm interested to see what's, what's in the deeper level than just what Dan John knows about fitness. So, but I know he's got a lot of good stuff.

Yeah. And that's, it's funny that you say that because, you know, like one of the things that I appreciate like talking to you about, like, or just talking to you is, uh, uh, you know, we just have conversations. So this is what's happening now. And then you have this random thought about justified. And then we just go down that path. You know what I mean? I watched that again since we talked last time. It was so good. You can't help it. It's just, so I'm, I tried watching it again after I watched it again, since last time we talked, and it still needs some time to, to kind of forget about how awesome it is.

So I think it's about a year to a year and a half before you can just jump on that war wagon again. You know, you should, you should go back to, have you seen Deadwood? You should go to Deadwood now. Deadwood? Yeah. Because it's, it's, uh, Tim, Timothy's still in it. So, and it's funny, he like, you know, people typecast and he's like the same character, but now he's in a different area. Yeah. He's still, he's still in the West. He's still got the top hat and he's still a fricking bad-ass. So different villains though. Yeah. That's funny. I'll check it out. Um, but then, so I was talking to Dan John and then, you know, he starts, oh, you have dogs.

I'm like, yeah. And he'd like, then he starts talking about his dogs and then he stops and he's like, no, we need to focus on strength training. I'm like, oh, I thought we were talking about dogs. Okay. Strength training, you know? And we, you know, every once in a while we'd veer off topic and he'd be like, okay, so let's talk about strength training. And I'm like, okay, that's not all I want to talk about. That's fine. It's cool. You know what I mean? And so, um, and it's funny, like the more. The interviews I have, there's people that are really enjoy talking to that are really good conversationalists.

And then there's other people that just come on and you're just like, oh, this is kind of hard. Like, why is this so weird and clunky? You know what I mean? And you're really trying really hard to drive the conversation instead of, um, just having a conversation, you know? It might be because they're nervous or, you know, because it's weird. Like, um, we have, we've worked so hard to be prominent members of our, uh, profession that when people ask us to be on a podcast, you're like, wait, what? Uh, yeah, I guess I could. I don't know. Am I interesting? Wait, I don't know. It's a, uh, uh, I, uh, for the feedback I've gotten from some people as a, as a first time guest is like, I get it.

Like one, one guy I had the other, yeah, the other day, he texted me later and he's like, I don't know what happened. Like, I don't know. Like, is that okay? Like, I'm like, no, you did fine. Like it's, it's harder to be the interviewer than it is the interviewee. So like, it's, it's a, it's a whole nother learning curve, you know? So, yeah, I think that might be a part of that clunky conversation you're talking about. So no, not at all, man. And it's because we did, because right after we met, you know, it's, I think we, um, got through that barrier walking for three hours around an airport talking about random stuff, you know?

And so, and then we did like two interviews in a row where you interviewed me and then I interviewed you or vice versa. I don't remember how it went. Um, and so I think it's, you know, and it's just, I'm a really, I'm really, I love talking to people. So when they come on and I'm just, yeah, super excited to talk to them. Now, really quick break in the show. Uh, I am not knowing exactly what we should pitch in this, but I do believe there's a part of the podcast in the middle. I should, I should make an announcement. So I'm going to keep doing this. Um, there is, it's been tough times with having, uh, in person.

Uh, workshop. So I don't necessarily want to say that those are going to be, uh, available, but I want to make the opportunity to let you guys know that if you are, um, struggling with, um, developing your skills as a clinician or you have some questions, maybe that have come up over the podcast and maybe you've listened to a couple of podcasts. You said, Hey, I don't know what that means, or I don't know what he's saying, or maybe, um, maybe you want some references of where to learn some things. I want to encourage you guys to, to reach out to me. Uh, that's, uh, Instagram is probably the easiest way.

That's, uh, performance HB and that's at Instagram. So at performance HB. So, uh, no, no pitches of things to go to. Just ask me what's going on. And there's probably, there, there might be some webinars coming up here soon, but no promises just because things are so dynamically changing. And so, um, but reach out to me and ask me any question you'd like to, I'd love to help you guys out. Now I'm back into the show. Well, being in isolation now, it's, uh, I don't know if you guys are there, but being in isolation, it's nice to see someone on the other side and have a different conversation than people in your household.

Yeah. And so, you know, I'm pretty much in isolation. I got a majority of my gym equipment here. Um, not to say that I've been using it because I've been, you know, like I said, really just kind of, uh, in like this going through weird bouts of just being in the moment and then being like depressed and then having a lot of anxiety. And then, you know, I'm finally starting to kind of get like a, uh, regular workout regimen going this week. Um, and you know, it's just, God, it's super weird and it's a whole new life. I think, I think since, since we haven't gone off topic a little bit, let's get back to strength.

No, let's, it's far with Dan John. Um, but, uh, actually to circle back on a couple of things, then, uh, how did your, so your Dan John interview went pretty well? Yeah, it went really good. I, I, uh, really enjoyed it. He's such a, he's such a knowledgeable guy. Like, you know, some, he just, I think he has so much information up there that sometimes when you ask a question, he has to search through like decades and decades of knowledge. You know what I mean? Yeah. His, his, his recent book, uh, actually he reads his own book on, on, on audio and 40 years on the whistle. Yeah. I really liked that one.

Cause it's, uh, like I'd mentioned it before that I'm like, man, Dan, like I love all your information, but it's like, there's like bits and pieces. I don't know how to put it all together. And, uh, 40 years with a whistle is, I think it, I think it covers kind of, it frameworks different, uh, the different information. And so even, even listening to it like one and a half times now, I'm not through back the second time there, there's some really good pieces of information there that you don't really don't catch till later. It's like, huh? Okay. That, that totally makes sense. You know, go for a walk after eating.

Yeah. You know? And, you know, that's the other thing I've been, uh, doing, but really struggling with is, you know, I'm notorious for just eating my feelings. So I'm just like on this right now I'm on the cookie war wagon. There's this company in town called crumble cookie. God damn it. They're just ruining my whole life. They just get you. Yeah. If you go popcorn, it's, it's much, it'll be much easier on you. Oh man. I might have to jump on that. Cause popcorn's been the way, but I've been really cognizant of it. So I'm really trying hard to not like, if I'm getting anxious and I want to eat something, then I just go, uh, jump on the Peloton bike for half an hour.

And then I feel a lot better or just take the dogs out for a walk or something. You know, people were selling those Peloton bikes. Like they're like, I don't want these things. And then now probably everyone's like, please just give me, I will keep my Peloton bike. Yeah. And, um, like I have 150 pound sandbag in my hallway. I have a 75 pound one. I have kettlebells. I have bands. I have all kinds of stuff. And so I've just been, I've been working out pretty good actually. Oh, good. Yeah. Um, let me circle back on something else. How's your, how's your, uh, how's your online virtual stuff going then?

Um, it's touch and go because there's a lot of people that are still going to work, which is, um, interesting. Uh, so, um, a lot of my, and it's, so the weird part is, is I started last week, like last Wednesday was the last day that I was working. And so I started Thursday and then I had a Saturday, Sunday. So Saturday and Sunday were really busy and really good. There was probably, you know, 12 to 15 people that came onto the class. Um, you know, God, a lot's happened in a week. It doesn't even, I forgot what day it was, man. Like, yeah, every day is sweatpants day right now. It seems like. I know.

And so that's kind of my heart. Like I've been trying to do this really hard pivot and, um, essentially I'm building a new business and hopefully that will carry on once I'm able to get. Back to my normal routine. Um, but it's just, yeah. So it's going, it's going as expected. So right now what I'm doing is, uh, giving free online classes and accepting donations if they find it valuable. Um, because I feel kind of schmucky, um, with everybody's current situation to be asking for money for things. And so, you know, that's, uh, kind of starting to shift a little bit, um, based on how many people are able to kind of work from home.

Um, because I do have an online fitness program that is, uh, ready and raring to go. Uh, it's a 12 week program and the reason why I originally created it was to help like first responders, shift workers, manage stress a lot better because there's this societal narrative that you need intensity in order to have a good workout. And that's just not true. So that's why I created this, uh, program for them, but it works for everybody right now. So, cause everybody's super stressed out, you know, so I just got to look at, uh, selling it differently because stress doesn't sell as well as abs does. So, right.

Yeah. You got to sell some, like you got to sell some boredom maybe. Yeah. There's, yeah, I, you know, I've noticed that like people are the ones that I've talked to you that they're, they're struggling a little bit with figuring out like what they can do at home, at least with stuff that they have, you know? Yeah. Um, and it might seem very simple, but you know, they go in the garage and pick up, like everybody has a bat, like a 20 pound bag of rice now, and they probably have a case of water, you know? So there's a lot of weights. I think they're just realizing that they can use those. They're allowed to use those as some training equipment and how to use those is, um, something that's, I think that's sellable.

How to use the shit around your house to get a good workout. Right. And then just even body weight stuff. That's where I think like the kin stretch stuff is really, uh, beneficial for people because it's all about the intention of the movement that you're doing, not the load that you're doing. Right. So yeah, you can act like you're picking up a, uh, 315 pound barbell and still get the same neurologic response and not have as much load. And so that's also the reason why I got one kettlebell, but a whole bunch of bands so that I can have varying loads while I'm doing a sumo kettlebell deadlifts or whatever it is.

So, cause people are stuck with the, you know, mentality that are like, well, how do I get a workout without a barbell? I'm like, my God, there's so many ways. So many ways. Like there's the, actually the first time I talked to Dan, John, it was about, we were talking about tension and just, just being able to generate tension through an iso, through isometric movements or even through, you know, the, the entire phase or the, the movement that you're doing. And so, um, I think just generating solid tension is probably easy way. Like you can smoke people so quick on that, um, without really even adding any weight, you know?

So, right. And that's like the, that's where the functional range conditioning stuff became really prominent for me because there's all these crossfitters that can get substantial load overhead, but then they can't move their arm in a circle. And I'm like, okay, so let's focus on that. You know what I mean? I'm used to only going up overhead or doing bench press, but that's a whole lot of range of motion that's being ignored. And so it's funny over Christmas, I had, um, a, uh, uh, one of my clients, her family lives in Boise. And so one of these, one of her brother-in-law is just a savage. He's just one of those CrossFit athletes.

It's like, dang, man, like calm down a little bit. You're making us all feel bad. But then once I got him in the, uh, into a kin stretch class, he was struggling, you know, because we're just used to going fast and not slow. So if you have to move your leg really slowly under control and under, then under the load of gravity, then people start to freak out. Yeah. You know, um, I don't know if you've done, have you ever done like a yoga class? Like as like, uh, like since, since you've been lifting, have you ever done a yoga class? Um, so the last yoga class I did was when I was training for my first jujitsu tournament.

And that was back in 2010. And, uh, it's really funny because, uh, I was, I started CrossFit right around then also. Um, so, well, so I, the, what I was thinking was that there was like, there was one time where I went to this yoga class where it was a hot yoga class. And I know there's lots of different types of yoga, but the point is there was a position where you had to go like arms overhead for like a minute or more. And I was just struggling and I'm going to make the excuse that like my lats are tighter and stronger and they want to pull my arm down. I can't get my arms straight overhead.

So gravity is like, it's, there's a lever, you know, more of a leverage point. Yeah. I looked around and there's like all these yogis just like smiling and just loving this shit. Probably not smiling because they're in a yoga class, but they didn't look like they're struggling. I was dripping sweat just from holding my arms over my head. So yeah, I think if you're not used to certain things, it's, this might be a good, this might be a good opportunity just to do things that, that we're not good at. Um, I know that the Dan John thing is do inefficient exercise. So something you're not good at might be one of the easiest things to implement right now.

Yeah. So it's funny cause, uh, um, I don't know if you're, uh, very knowledgeable about the mixed martial arts world, but there's, uh, this, he was the world extreme cage fighting champion at the time. His name's Jamie Varner and he was, uh, he lives down in Phoenix. So he came up to flag, uh, to train for, um, his title bout with Donald Cerrone at the time. So Donald Cerrone was in that organization as well. And, you know, I was training with him every day because I was trying to train for this jujitsu tournament. And he said, Hey, uh, tomorrow's a rest day. What are you guys doing? Oh, we're all going to this hot yoga class and it's going to be great.

You should come. And so they switched the time from eight 30 in the morning to like two o'clock in the afternoon. Right. And so that's when all those drunk college kids were like, yeah, I'll go to that because they were awake now, you know? So then the room was full of people. So then just smelling like alcohol coming out of every door. And so not only that, but that body heat was contributing to the heat of this hot yoga class. And so I am struggling, like I'm on my hands and knees, just sweating profusely, freaking out. And I look over and this guy's a kick, kickboxing coach has done hot yoga forever.

So he's like coaching him through this class, yelling at him, you hold it. You only got three moves left, three moves left. So this championship MMA fighter was like freaking out in this class, trying not to quit. And everybody else was just on the struggle bus as well. And it's just, it is so hard that for these pregnant ladies, there was like two pregnant ladies that were just crushing every pose. There was one like 55 year old gray haired, overweight guy that was just like no problem whatsoever. And these young mid twenties, incredibly in shape guys were just losing it. It was just really funny.

Yeah. I remember like the, like with, with swimming, like I'm not, I'm not a good swimmer. Uh, I've gotten much better over the years, but at the same time, swimming is just like you go one time, two times across the pool and then it, and you're out of breath. And I remember seeing like people who are not in really good physical shape and they were wearing speedos because so you can tell that they were like, they had been in a pool. They had nice goggles and hats and speedos and so on. Yeah. They were just like seamlessly flip turning, just like coasting through the water, like for, for a long time.

And I was just taking breaks, just watching them and off thinking, damn, I don't know. Like, I feel like I'm probably in better physical shape than you, but you have a really good skill with this. Like you have a good skill here. Like you're good at navigating the water. So. Yeah. And that's how I was too. Cause I was on a swim team for years when I was a kid. And so then I started CrossFit and was in two years into CrossFit and was really getting into good shape. I was like, man, I'm going to go crush this swimming pool thing. And I swam one lap and was just freaking out. And I was like, how did I used to do this?

Like, like you said, the flip turns, my flip turn timing was all off because I haven't done it in two decades. And it's just, uh, it's going through that whole thing where your brain remembers what you used to be able to do. So then you just think that you are able to do it, but your body's like, no, I don't remember this. I don't know what's happening. Yeah. So, but if you keep it up consistently, then you get a lot better at it, but good grief. Yeah. For a while there I was, I was trying to do something which was a little different, but kind of like different, but I don't know what I'll say about fun, but just outside.

And so I go to the beach and just dig holes and then, and then fill them up after I was jumping in and out of the hole. And that was the whole, that was the whole workout. That's awesome, man. And that's really good though. Cause I built a lot of variants and that's, yeah, that's really awesome. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Where I live, there's, it's terrible. You can chop trees. Maybe I could for sure. I couldn't dig a hole though. Cause I remember riding BMX when I was growing up, like trying to dig dirt jumps. God, it's just a, it's a, well, like, so the mountain that we have here used to be a volcano and it exploded everywhere.

So there's just rocks all over the place. So you, it would take us months to build dirt jumps, just months. Cause you're just hitting all these rocks and having to dig around all these boulders. And it was just terrible. So I won't be digging any holes, but you know, I tried to talk my wife into moving closer to the beach and she just wasn't having it. Well, maybe, maybe now's the time since you're going to be working so virtual, you can live anywhere. You can live out in Bali or something like that. So back on the topic of strength, I'm just joking. So on the, on the, on the, on the virtual stuff too, I think, cause that's, that's something we've probably hit a little bit too here is that, um, I mean, have you heard of anyone else doing like, what are other ideas that people have been doing to actually make things work, um, virtual or whatever they might be doing, you know?

So that's, it's, it's all kind of the same thing. So I think I'm going to be, I think I'm going to be the first massage therapist that has the knowledge base to be able to do like virtual conference, uh, consultations. Cause you know, that, um, that course with Michael Shacklock is phenomenal and it's great, wasn't it? Yeah. And one of the biggest takeaways is, um, being able to offload the symptoms, you know, like being able to relieve the symptoms pretty much immediately, um, you know, with, uh, with the sciatic pain or the cervical radiculopathy, just being able to give them instant relief is really huge for them, you know?

And so I can do that. And, you know, there's a lot of, um, just from, uh, all of the coaching that I've done, I can really kind of coach people through their pain symptoms and, and, you know, all the, the trigger point work that I do on them, they can do on themselves for the most part. Um, and just understanding the, uh, applied kinesiology that I've learned well, and the patterns that I see come into my office all the time. So if you're having low back pain, this could be potentially what it is. So let's trigger point that and then see if it releases so that you can relieve that back pain. And so there's like a, that's, um, that's been a lot of my content recently.

And so if anybody has any people look through my, uh, past Instagram feed and just start looking at all those different muscle to muscle relationships, cause that actually provides people with a lot of relief. Yeah. You know, probably the thing to hit on too, is that, um, I know that, uh, at least on my podcast, I've said this many times and I don't, I don't quite, uh, probably people at this point think I hate, like, I hate manual therapy just cause I, I think it's just overly utilized is all just for a lot of things. And after attending shot clocks course, like I I've been surprised by that as well as, uh, MDT, how many things you don't need to actually have anyone touch you to help you with.

Right. It's, it's good to have the examination and all of the information at hand, but with current situation, you can't really get all the information, but you can get enough to proceed forward. In my opinion, at least reasonably, and you don't have red flags and scary things that people have, but like the things that, the things that you don't need anyone to really always massage is like, uh, it man, like that can go away within like a week without even touching it. Pariformis syndrome, TFL, hip flexor strains, low back pain, sciatica, radiculopathies. Uh, I don't know if there's really a thing such as a rhomboid strain really, but those can go away cause there's typically C5 to C8.

Like those things are super easy. Um, even down to elbow pain, super easy in most cases where people like they don't need to be touched. And I know it's the public's, it's their perception of like, why would I do a virtual when like that can't help me? Yeah, it can. You just show you how to offload the area and you'll feel better without having to worry about, do you need to go to urgent care? You know, it's, I've been amazed by how many things you just don't need to have manual therapy on. But in chronic cases, I think manual therapy is very, very helpful. Right. But at this, at this point in time, I really think it comes down to if we can help a lot of people manage their problem who are not the ones who need manual therapy.

Like that's probably going to be more than, I think more than half the people in my opinion, although people might disagree with me who love manual therapy. Um, I guess, I guess I don't want to talk too long. I practiced with strictly manual therapy for God, six, seven years. Like I've had my experience with it. I just know that it's, there's a time and place and I recognize in the past that I overly utilize it. I even called patients that I had in the past with, that were ones that I had trouble resolving and this time around, I just said, come in, I'll do it for free. Like two, three times better change in just those times with them doing the work than there was me doing the work.

It was way less work for me even. Right. And so, um, you know, just the applied kinesiology, uh, going down that path, like the people who are having rhomboid pain, that's usually associated with a rotate, uh, rotational pattern. And so if they're, uh, rotating the upper thoracic, then the rhomboid is what's pulling into that rotation. And the, usually the pec minor is what's pushing. And so if there's one that's overworking or underworking, then, um, one of them gets really upset. So the way I explain it to people is like, all these muscles are like a group project in college. And this one muscles, the only person in the group during the group project.

And that's why it's pissed off. You know what I mean? So if you release that, then all the other ones come back online, but then you have to tell the brain what to do. So then I take them out into the gym and we do like pal-off presses or whatever to get that rotational pattern, uh, solidified in the brain in order to have them move forward without pain. So that's like one of those things where, um, you know, that I'm trying to, to, you know, educate the massage therapy field. And like if somebody's QL for existence for, uh, as an example is super tight, you need to understand what the QL does in relationship to the rest of the body.

Don't just bash your elbow into the QL. Yeah. I think we should stop going with the condition called overuse. And I think we should call, uh, we should look at the other spots and say underused. Yeah. Um, and like I had a, I had a guy just the other day that we like, we've worked in the office, uh, quite a bit together over the months. And so he's so much better than what he used to be. He was a sciatica case. And so, um, now it's just kind of localized in his, in his hip area. And he's like, I'm not sure what I should be doing. And, and it's been like weeks since I've seen him. So we did a video call.

And so I, I, I hadn't demonstrated something called a slumps test, which is a seated test, which, um, it shows if there's neural tension or not. You, you experienced it when you had the shack locks course. Yeah. So he could demonstrate he had a positive slumps test. And so we did something, um, we did a first aid maneuver to see if it got rid of it. It worked a little bit, but instead, if you think about, okay, so what could be, what mechanics could be creating that, um, closure in this case, maybe of the IVF creating, creating nerve swelling and, and, and, uh, mechanical sensitivity to the nerve and neural tension, um, or signs of neural tension.

And so, well, lateral flexion towards the side could. And so I just smoked him on a side plank on the opposite side. And then he did the slumps test again. He can get the chin all the way to the chest with the foot up. No symptoms. He's like, I wish I had a record. He's like, wow, that is way better. He's like, I can put my chin on my chest. So you're right with like, things just work harmoniously together. And if we just kind of stop addressing the squeaky wheel, we can actually find better and quicker results with less labor on our part than, than we could if we just addressed that squeaky wheel.

Right. And so I was working with a, uh, collegiate track athlete and he was just complaining about, um, low back pain when he's doing his speed work. And so then you start to think, well, speed work is violent hip extension essentially. So then why is that happening? So then you go to the glutes, right? So, you know, that's a, that's a common narrative in our field is, well, the glutes aren't working. Well, in his case, somebody told him that. So now his glutes are working too hard. And so then immediately as he starts sprinting, then those glutes, you know, start to transfer that load up into the QLs and the QLs are then taking responsibility for that hip extension.

And so then once I released his glutes, he's like, oh my God, that felt so much better. And I'm like, cool. So now when you go to do speed work, you should release the glutes before you do speed work instead of activating them and then use the activations as part of your workout, as your warmup. And so just kind of switch that narrative a little bit. And then I saw him at the grocery store, like two weeks later, and he's like, my back hasn't felt this good. And I'm like, yes, you know, so, um, you know, through the muscle testing that it can just tell you a lot of information. And so, you know, while you're muscle testing, I test the glute and it's just rock solid.

And so then you do like a spindle cell compression, which then, uh, creates a, uh, temporary, like neurological stop on that muscle. So it should test week after that, but it didn't. Yeah. And that tells me that it's just a hypertonic. And then, so yeah, figure out why is it hypertonic and then just work on that issue. You know, something, something else on that too, like, cause I know there's a lot of different ways to, um, address like what's driving somebody's problem. Um, something else too, like, let's just say what helps the glutes and pelvic rotation, or at least, um, getting the pelvis, um, or let's just talk about what was sprinting.

Uh, the ab wall tends to help as well as, and if you follow the DNS route, let's talk about intra-abdominal pressure. Yeah. Um, but what I found too was some, sometimes with those people is, is if they're driving too much extension there and it's dumping in the low back, if you use a, a tractor state Guido van Reisigen principle and just load the shit out of the ab wall, um, sometimes that provides an immediate response too. So there's, I think there's, uh, there's ways that people can feel better. I think, uh, you know, and, and just as, just as you said, it's, if you, if you direct them the right way, I think we're, I think they're going to get where they want to go.

Yeah. I think, yeah, I like it a lot. And so it's, uh, it's, and it's really difficult in my profession. Cause once people learn what they feel like they need to learn just from the remedial massage school, then they just think that that's the end all be all. And they're just like, no, we're great. We're just going to do deep tissue here. We're just going to jam this elbow in Mike, well, you got to think like it's under threat. And so you have to, you shouldn't be creating more threats. So you have to use, you have to use your powers of deductive reasoning to figure out why that's under threat.

And so another thing that I learned from shack locks course is, you know, cause we spoke about those, those offloading techniques earlier, your body will do that. Your body will do its own offloading techniques, like specifically for like a, a cervical radiculopathy. Then the, the pec minor will tighten up the, the upper trap will tighten up and we'll start to try and offload those symptoms. And, you know, it's, God, we're, we're really just kind of marvels of engineering and we'll figure out how to protect ourselves. Yeah. I've been, I've been saying it's a, um, it's funny, I had a, I had an intern that he, he's like, yeah, I totally understand.

Like the pawns, like that, like you're mentioning that I talked about, like the body will throw a pawn in the way to protect the queen. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yeah. The brainstem. And I said, no, no, no. Chess. No, no, no. Like, like you have a bunch of pawns and we will put like the bio will say, Oh, got to protect the queen, got to protect the queen. And it's just like bodily compensation. And it's really good at it because it knows what happens if, if, if it really makes that threat real, um, no threat always is not always real, but yeah, a lot of good stuff, man. Like, God, I, I, I don't know where it, like we came into this podcast talking about like virtual, like what are we going to do with, uh, I think we should just go back into justified.

Yeah. Good. If you haven't. So for all those people listening, we're going to finish up this podcast with, if you haven't watched justified, do it because, um, you know, we'll probably have a followup. Podcasts in a couple months to, um, see how everybody's kind of reviving their business after this whole thing. And if you listeners haven't watched justified, then you're going to be lost in this conversation. So get after it. You know, one thing too, with, I think I mentioned this on, on my podcast is, uh, I did a whole section on virtual, like, uh, or how to, how to manage this, the situation and virtual consults and things like that.

Um, I, I would imagine a strong majority of massaging and chiropractic and I'm not sure about PT cause I don't know all their curriculum as much, but I bet a lot of us are really bad at helping people verbally and showing them it's like, like touches our main mechanism. And so I would challenge everybody to see if you can figure out how to help someone without touching them. Yeah. Cause I think the lay of the land here is going to be realistically for there's going to be months, maybe even a year where people are not as open to coming to you. Like if you had a Medicare practice, how the hell are you going to get, you know, a 75 year old person to come in if they're a high risk, you know, and you're seeing a lot of Medicare proxies, you see a lot of people at one time, right?

So how the, I think we've got to really, really rethink what our skillsets are and just take the opportunity to get better at things that we're able to do right now. Right. And so just understanding that we have a lot of knowledge as far as the human body is concerned. And once you start to understand those compensational patterns, then you can start to figure out ways to, um, help people correct themselves. And I think cause that's essentially what the corrective exercises are. Right. And so just to, um, to be able to kind of translate that, translate that into an online space, I think is going to be very valuable, especially for the next couple of months if people don't want to start, you know, trying to find jobs at Arby's or something.

Yeah. I think, I think of, I think of corrective exercise as a medication, like you won't give someone a heart medication for a, um, for a kidney problem. Right. Like it's specific and you have to know why you're giving it. But yeah, I think, uh, I think people can get much better. Honestly, I don't want to work at, I actually Arby's. So when I was a kid, I loved Arby's so we would do like these like four, I think it was like four burgers for like five bucks type of thing. Yeah. The way Arby's got me was when I was a kid, there was an Arby's around the corner from the school. And so one of the school field trips was going behind the scenes at Arby's and you'd see them slice the thing, slice the meat and toast the bun.

And so I probably ate Arby's from the, from the time that I was like seven or eight until I was about 25, just like crushing these, like the, these, uh, you know, the, the Arby's sauce was just amazing. But every time after it's like, you gotta, you will get hammered. You will get, you'll get hammered from Arby's. Yeah, man. I'm so happy I don't eat fast food anymore. Cause I just, the last time I did, I got crushed and went to Del Taco, I think, and just spent all night just throwing up and just terrible. So anyway, I feel like that's a good place to end it. Here, let me, let me give you one, let me give you one more thing because I think this will still tie into that, but I think it's a greater good thing.

Uh, if you don't eat like Jesse and me and we don't really eat that stuff as much anymore, I'm being much more strict over the month just anyways, because it just happened to be during this time. Anyways, um, support your local pizza shop or restaurant hurting. So just support them instead of going to places like your Del Tacos and your big chains. Cause they're getting, they're going to make it through this. So if you want to see like a good variety of foods later, after all this blows over, you better support them. Um, so just go out and spend money with people who you like, not people you don't know.

So it's funny that the, the, the movie demolition man is really relevant or. That's where the, that's where the Taco Bells were, right? Yeah. Relevant. That's what the word I wanted to use. Um, because you know, the three seashells, cause they don't have toilet paper, the, the handshake where they're not allowed to touch each other and then how Taco Bell's the only restaurant. Yeah. Well, I thought it was the, wait, was that the one where they had a pill? Like your meal was in a pill form too? Kind of. Um, or they put it in the microwave and it expanded. Yeah. So funny. So, you know, that's another thing that you can do while you're at home.

Watch demolition man, because it's, it's incredibly relevant to today's situation. Yeah. Right. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast, brother. Yeah, man. No problem. Great, Jesse. Thanks for having me on your podcast, the Kikoro Movement Podcast. And thanks for letting me borrow the audio that really helped out with, uh, I've been kind of overwhelmed with, um, with work, with some work ventures as, as we see with all this new business changes, new and, uh, new and improved lay of the land. So, um, I think too, in upcoming podcast, I'm going to make an attempt to make everything lighter.

And, uh, I want to do that for multiple reasons for everybody. And so I might have on just random people that you guys might not know, or maybe there'll be anonymous people that are, we're going to cover similar topics, but we're going to, I'm going to be okay with tangenting a little bit more. I don't need to keep it so serious all the time. I think one of the hardest things here is everyone gets stressed out because they're so being so serious, you know, and there's, it is a challenging time for everybody, but it doesn't mean we can't laugh and have a good time. So hopefully, um, through this period that it's a little bit more, just more entertaining than actually, uh, educational.

So I'll do my very best to, to get some people on, especially as there's some downtime that I have, uh, with the home studio. So as always, thanks for being part of the movement and I'll see you guys soon.