Why tight muscles keep coming back after massage

It kind of crushes you the first couple of times that happens because you're like, oh, we can totally help this person. Like, but they just they don't have any buy in to understand that, like, oh, this thing actually works, you know, or somebody that's actually like listening to them and paying attention to their symptoms. And they've been through maybe too many people that they've kind of like lost faith in just the industry as a whole, unfortunately. So then they just think somebody else is trying to scam them, you know, so it's kind of unfortunate because you do feel kind of crushed. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery.

And now your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey, guys, it's Sebastian, your host with the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. This is your first time on the show. Welcome. You're way behind. And we are over 200 episodes in. And so if you like the one we do today, hopefully you just go back and listen to all the archives in a binge worthy fashion. Now, if you've not listened to the show yet, we are a show mainly targeted at improving our clinical skills as movement providers to help out people. And if you're a lay public person listening to this, I think you're still going to resonate well with a lot of it, mainly because we try to keep the terminology very friendly to everybody.

There will be some episodes that are a lot more techie. And if you feel like you're not understanding what's going on, that's OK. Just skip episodes. Years ago, when I started this podcast, I thought, well, I'm going to do it only as lay public or patient friendly. But quite honestly, I got a little bored because I wanted to learn stuff, too. And so over the years, I've learned actually a lot from this podcast and a lot of the presenters that I've had on. And so I keep doing a little ebb and flow. I guess I'm a little selfish in that manner. So I used to share personal stories about myself and hopefully they'll come out again.

But I ran dry. I don't know what else I can I was hoping that you guys would get to know me a little bit better. And hopefully, I guess, after sharing probably 200 stories of personal stories, hopefully, you know me pretty well already. So I will spare myself the effort of finding more of them now. But today we're going to interview one of my interns. This is Mary Lou Garcia. She's been interning with me for a while now. It's probably been she she started doing three hours a week from the local chiropractic school, SCU. And three hours a week for the first couple months or their first term she was here.

And then, gosh, that was this is this is probably not this is January or February 2021. She's been with me since I think about a year ago, you know, kind of just taking time and being that now she's here, you know, three, four days a week. So she spends a lot of time here and she's been very diligent about learning not only the clinical aspect, but also some of the business aspect and really what it takes to get people to do the right care. But at least to allow us to allow us to help them, because not everybody thinks that we can help them or they don't think we're worth the money or whatever.

So today I interviewed Mary Lou a little bit just to see what she has to say. And she used to be a massage therapist for about or she still is a 16 year massage therapist. So it's interesting to see coming from a background in massage therapy of of now she does a lot more corrective exercise and a little less tissue work. It's interesting to see what she's seen and what her experience is. So I hope you guys learn something from this and she has a lot of good experience to share. Now the interview with Mary Lou Garcia. Okay. Yeah. So everyone, this is Mary Lou. Say hi to Mary Lou. Hey, guys. Hi.

So we jumped in the podcast room, aka the treatment room, just to do a random one today. And we have no idea what we're going to actually talk about, but Mary Lou's got a wealth of knowledge. So we will just start going down the route and see what she has to say. So why don't you tell everyone who you are and why you're here? All right. Yeah. I am a fourth year Cairo student currently, but I've been doing massage for about 16 years. Finally decided to like take the leap and transition, get back to school. But yeah, that's kind of in a nutshell. So you used to, you used to, so 16 years of massage, why don't you just keep doing massage?

Um, I think that there's a limited amount of things that you can do with people. And, um, also I keep, you know, you get to a point where you see that you can help people, but then there's like a barrier and you see the same symptoms kind of coming back. And like, I started realizing there's an underlying, uh, a deeper reason as to why, like the, this muscle tension, these issues keep coming back. So I knew there was something else going on, you know? So how come you just didn't do what, like, I feel like, you know, I'm sure we'd, we do this in our field a little bit too. It's like, you just like kind of dabble in nutrition.

It's like, you know, we just, just eat better, you know, type of thing. Like I thought like some massage therapists and trainers, they just kind of like start kind of teetering with other things, which I'm okay with them trying that, you know, but did you go that route? And you're like, I'm going to, I'm just capped off here. I need to know more. Yeah. A little bit. Um, even, I mean, for example, how I, you know, kind of got introduced to you was from like Marianne and like Cody, right? So they used to come into Equinox and kind of give us more tips and tricks on like, oh, if you're a massage therapist and you see this, like try that.

So I did have like a lot of other like background knowledge, but at some point, again, you kind of are like in a gray zone of, okay, I I'm kind of getting out of my scope here, you know? And you're like, okay, you got to get more knowledge and understanding, I think. So for me, it made sense. I'm like, eh, I want to play it safe and be able to actually like diagnose and do what I got to do. So when, when they came up for those workshops, what were the, was there something that they showed you that you're like, huh? Okay. This is a, I can't believe that worked. That made you want to continue. Cause I'm sure they can, people show probably all, a lot of things at those workshops.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think a lot of it was, um, one time Cody was showing even like range of motion, like, so passive range of motion versus like, active range of motion and how like the body could be like guarding and protecting, you know? So then I was like, okay, there's something there, you know? And I didn't quite understand it at the time. Um, just cause I didn't have the same knowledge of like how the nervous system would guard and protect in muscles. Right. Um, but even stuff like that, or, um, you know, the hip stuff, he would show like scours and kind of like, okay, if you've got pain with this, eh, this is not a really a muscular thing.

Or this is not really, you know, um, so that's kind of where my, you know, my mind started going like, okay, there's something deeper going on here. You know, it's not just musculature. Yeah. Actually we should probably dive into that a little bit to see. Cause cause you'd have a, I don't know the things that massage therapists do and do not know. And so it'd be interesting to kind of see what, what that's about. Um, I don't know, uh, just based upon like passive active range of motion. And I don't know, did I ever tell you the, the, when I went to, uh, Guido's workshop, the ear wiggle thing? No, no.

Oh, it was crazy. Like, so I'm going to interview him soon again. And so I got to ask him what it was. And so there was maybe 20 of us there, 15 of us there. And so he starts off his workshop, basically, um, kind of to paint the picture that there's more to this range of motion and pain than kind of meets the eye. And so he was asking who has tight hamstrings. And so he kind of looked around and people bent over, touched their toes. And clearly, I mean, like I was not touching my toes either. And there was a lot of other people who were not touching their toes, but he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

You let's take you. And so you put them up on the table, put them face up. And so you see him hit like 45 degrees, straight leg raised, like not much. Right. And so he's like, okay, someone put a clock on, I'm going to wiggle his ear for one minute. And so he wiggles his ear and he's just kind of bullshit with everybody. Right. And he's like, cool. Is that time? Good. Not shitting you 90 degrees after that. Oh my gosh. Without doing a single hamstring stretch or any corrective or anything. So I still don't know what that was, but it makes me wonder how deep this well could go. Uh-huh. You know?

Yeah, yeah. You kind of distract somebody like via the nervous system. It's kind of the same thing, right? Movement Maestro did the same thing in the RTP. Like, okay, we're just going to kind of scrape a little bit with, you know, one of these, what was it? A tool or whatever. And then all of a sudden somebody bent and you're like, what? But it's like, it's these little tricks, you know, for like the nervous system. As far as like massage therapist knowledge goes, like you definitely don't, you don't get taught like a lot of that unless you go to a specific, like there are certain schools that'll teach a little bit more into that route.

You know what I mean? But I'd say probably majority of them don't, you know, they don't get in that deep. Is with massage, it's kind of the same thing where like with, I'm sure MDs, chiros, PTs are all the same, where it's like you go to school and you learn the basic amount of stuff. And then you're like, oh, I feel like I really advanced my knowledge after the fact. Yeah, definitely. Because they give you kind of like the basic, okay, effleurage, petressage, all these little things. And then everybody goes down the route of like, oh, specializing in this and that. And then like later on you pick up different techniques, right?

Like I learned how to do Thai massage at one point and then taught other people how to do Thai massage, you know, in training with, you know what I mean? Like the club and all these different things. So you just kind of pick those things up and then you go get certified in like prenatal massage or yeah, like ART or, you know what I mean? So you just kind of like pick things up along the way. So since you're, they're all forms of manual therapy. Yeah. How different is each, like, I don't even know what petra. Petressage. I don't even know what petressage is. It's just a move. So is it like kind of scraping versus pushing versus pulling versus stretching?

Like what is the, I don't even know. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. So like an effleurage would be like a long stroke. A petressage is going to be more like a pull and almost like how we do a skin pull, right? But not so aggressive. Like it's kind of like a nicer one or like, you know, then you could use your like thumbs for ischemic pressure. They've got these different terms for just different techniques, basically. So what do they cover in school then? Because like I feel like that would be a really, you know, here's different styles and so on. And then like later on you go, oh, I didn't know I could pull, you know?

Yeah, yeah. No, they go into all the basics and they give you like your anatomy. They make sure, you know, even, you know, a lot of other pathologies of the skin, stuff like that. You know what I mean? So they kind of give you a pretty broad, just general idea. And then after that, like once you're certified, you take all these continuing education courses similar to what we have to do in like Cairo school, right? Like you get the base knowledge and then like you get the real stuff like layered on later on by like continuing education courses that you take. Okay. By the way, as we, and since this is your first real podcast, you can always volley back to me if you're like, I don't want to talk about like you just, you, you answer that.

Yeah. So, well, it, it, uh, just in case you feel like, cause sometimes like, I find that like me and Dawne Costantino do like a back and forth, right? And then sometimes when people have not done podcasting for a while or like it's, it, I begin interrogating them. Got it. And so you feel like, you feel like being interrogated. Okay. Being interrogated. Yeah. Tell me everything you know. Yeah. Um, it's fine. Funny. There was, uh, I should give this, I should give this book to you later. Have, or no, you read it. I think it was, uh, influence. Uh, yeah, I've actually, I'm listening to an audible. Yeah. I'm kind of finishing it up.

Do you get to the good cop, bad cop one yet? No, no, no. Oh yeah. It was the, it's, it's towards the end, but it was just, it just reminds me of tell me everything, you know, you got to calm, calm down. My partner, he'll throw everything at you. Yeah. Like he'll get the D8 of really like, I can help you out. Yeah, no, totally. It's a good book though. Yeah. I've been kind of expanding my knowledge. I'm like, okay, I got to actually learn business stuff now. Not so much of all, like I'm at that point where I'm like, okay, I've got like all this clinical stuff. Like, you know, have a pretty good idea and sense of that.

Now let's jump into other things. So that's definitely why I was like, okay. Fluence, seller be sold, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So, so Mary Lou's been going through part of this sales curriculum that we have in the, in the P2 sports care syllabus is, I mean, obviously there's clinical stuff, but there's also good doctors. There's typically, in my opinion, don't always get people to come, you know, they, it's hard to convince them that you're any different than anybody else. And, um, and we all know this as a business as well. And, uh, so you've been going over through the seller be sold, which is the, some of the Grant Cardone stuff.

And, uh, for a while you were, you said you were listening to them on the way to, yeah. On the way in, it kind of like hypes you up. Right. You know, if like, if we've got patients calling or we got to get on zoom calls and consults, then it's like, it hypes you up where you feel like, okay, I'm ready. Like I'm on now. You know, so he's, he's definitely a good hype man. Yeah. So I don't know if I mentioned to the, I was listening to, uh, another podcaster talking about front desk phone calls. Did we talk about this? They were, they were saying like, okay, so you should be able to book somebody within like two minutes.

Really? Yeah. Like basically don't create any questions. It's a or B like, oh, like, do you help with hips? Yes, we do. When would you like to come in Monday or Tuesday, five or six, you know, like things like that. Like, um, and I like, I like the idea of is very efficient and it doesn't create the barriers, but, um, we've been working off the premise of spend more time. Right. Yeah. Have you, and the reason I bring this up is in case of everyone listening, Mary Lou's been stellar at the phone calls and booking people, which is hard. Um, and so she has a lot of experience recently. Yeah. Do you find, uh, that talking to them more is, is it create more questions?

Is there, can it be expedited? Cause I know you're on the phone sometimes for, yeah, it can definitely, I guess, create more, uh, it muddies it up a little bit when you ask them more stuff, but I think I've had better outcomes when I'm on the phone with them more, you know what I mean? A little bit, or like the zoom console, like, cause you also put them at ease. You kind of like, okay, uh, let's, let's talk about what you have going on. What's your goal? Like a little bit about what we do. Um, and unless they just call and say, Hey, I'm, I'm ready to book something. Then I do the kind of the other technique, like, okay, cool.

What day do you want to look at? Let's just get you booked. And then that seems pretty consistent. If somebody calls in just like that, but if they're like, Hey, let me check my insurance or like, Hey, I've got these questions. Then it, it definitely spend, we have to spend a little bit more time. Like I'd say at least 10 minutes before we get a good success. So, so you have to kind of identify when they're just ready or when they're still have questions or concerns. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So if, uh, if they sound like a little wishy-washy and they're like, Oh, I don't really know. Or, uh, I've been to these other places and, Oh, that's, you know, more than it's not going to be covered by insurance.

That's more than I was looking to pay. Then you have to explain why it's a value, you know, cause otherwise you feel bad that like, Hey, I can really help this person, but now they're not getting booked, you know, and they're going to go to some other crappy place. Yeah. Watch. I was telling Jerry with like, so just whoever knows, like there's, there's, we're trying to, we don't try to put new interns very quickly on the phone because it's basically lost business if they, you know, don't book the person. And, but, you know, at the same time, we do a little bit of the ring ring game. We do like, you know, common questions that people will get or that.

I mean, that they'll ask and so on, and just kind of how to navigate those. And I remember Jared's first one on that video call where it was, he was like, I think he's in there for like 10 minutes and, and he's the end. He's like, Oh man, that would have been so easy. I'm like, how does it feel knowing that that person does not want your help? Even for like, apparently the guy wouldn't even probably wouldn't even paid 50 bucks to see you. Like you, whatever you, you weren't able to convince him enough to help him. Yeah. And he's so close. It kind of crushes you the first couple of times that happens.

Cause you're like, Oh, we can totally help this person. And like, but they just, they don't have any buy-in to understand that like, Oh, this thing actually works, you know? Or somebody that's actually like listening to them and paying attention to their symptoms. And they've been through maybe too many people that they've kind of like lost faith in just the industry as a whole, unfortunately. So then they just think somebody else is trying to scam them, you know? So it's, it's kind of unfortunate because you do feel kind of crushed. Yeah. Well, there was, there was quite a few people in within a month there where I had, I noticed that there was, they'd been to so many people, so many clinicians that it's like they had an inherent like distrust of what I was saying.

And, uh, it's really disheartening to do that. Cause you're like, like, this is like, it's, it really didn't have to be that hard. Let's just do it. And there's just all these yeah, buts and distrust. And yeah, I totally get it, but it's, it's, I don't know how you break through some of those cases, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I think it's definitely a, a, like a problem, you know, as a whole, because I, I even in massage, like working with clients, I see the same thing where people have this expectation and they just like, almost like kind of give up. Like they feel like, oh, well, this is just how it's going to be.

Or this is part of getting old. Right. Like there's, there's no fixing this. And I'm like, well, no, there probably is. If you're willing to put in the work, you know? Yeah. So I love when they say, uh, I've tried everything and then they list what they've tried and you're like, God, that's only like, that's like almost nothing. Yeah. And, uh, I know it's everybody's first merry-go-round with their problem in the first time they have it. But, um, you said the age related thing that tell you, Ali's dad actually. Uh, so he's, he's been working out. Right. And, uh, and so he was, he's like 50 something, you know?

And he's like, man, all that stuff I thought was age related is gone. Oh my God. And Ali's like, no shit. Like, that's awesome. Yeah. He's, he's pretty religious about it now though. So, I mean, yeah, you got to put in the work, you know, he's here every week and you know, he's working out. So yeah, it's good that he's not really, it didn't seem like he really, whatever problems he has, like, they're not really, they're not enough to like, for him to be like, oh, I can't do anything today. Yeah. You know, apparently he goes on like, like, so there's, there's back Bay over, uh, he walks around back Bay, like multiple times a week.

So he does 10 mile walks. Wow. Yeah. That's pretty, that's nice. Yeah. I couldn't do. Yeah. That's pretty good. Well, it helps when you have the time to, I feel like I would get halfway around it and say, shit, this was a mistake. You know, like there's only like five miles left, but it's not like, it's, it's like, you're like, I can only go up each way is there. There is no cutting off. Now you're stuck and you got to go back. Yeah. I've been on a couple of hikes that way where it's like, you get uphill and they're like, oh man, it's like five miles back now. Okay. Like, well, you just got to do it.

You got to push through. Yeah. What's, uh, we haven't talked, I know we talked about hiking some, what's the, uh, you don't know what's the longest trip that you did. Uh, longest trip I've done probably a little over 50 miles or so. Is that like the week one? Yeah. But like an eight day, nine days. So we do a couple of layover days. Typically if we go on a backpacking trip that that's, you know, that long. Um, but it's kind of my favorite, you know, you get, you get out there, you get away and you kind of forget about the world a little bit. Where, where was that one at? Uh, up in Yosemite. Okay.

Yeah. Where did you go eight days? Did you, have you gone into Hetch Hetchy area? No, no. You've just stayed around the, it was around the rim or something. Yeah. So it was good. Kind of go through like Mono Meadows, like in that whole glacier area. Like it's, it's really, you know, beautiful, but enough to get away from everybody, you know? So you see a couple of people every few days and you kind of like, okay, Hey, you know, and you just kind of chit chat, make on your way. Yeah. But yeah. When, uh, when you don't see people for that many days and you finally see somebody, do you just like stop and want to talk to them?

Uh, yes and no, like a little bit, but cause I've met some really cool people. Like I met this one girl, she like had her own, um, like blog about backpacking food, how you can like, she was literally making pizza dough on the trail. Like it was nuts. Yeah. She had a bag and she's like, Oh yeah, I just bring the flour, the yeast. And she had it like tucked under her shirt. Cause the heat of like her own body helped the yeast expand. And she had these like really cool techniques on like how to make real good fresh food instead of like your dried, you know, crappy food on backpacking trips. So it was, it was kind of neat.

Do you ever use any of her recipes now? Um, not too much. I did for like probably about a year. I was like on this really good cake. I'm like, Oh yeah, these are awesome. But she had a really, a lot of good techniques on like how to find like the onion flowers and you add them to your fish and all these other things, you know, like, um, just kind of picking up stuff along the trail. So, but yeah, there, um, for, there was a period of time where I was looking into like a botanical, like see what you can eat on the trail. Yeah. And I realized that it can go really badly. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm colorblind.

So it doesn't help the matter. Oh, are you really? I didn't know that. Yeah. I still like when I'm looking for like, like, you know, there's seasons that have like poison ivy. Yeah. I'm like, I can't see it. I'm like, okay. So, uh, yeah, leaves a three, let it be. I don't like everything out here is the same color. Yeah. I'm just not going to touch anything. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. That'd be bad. You can't even tell which berries are red then, or like something else. No, I mean, I mean, I can get, get an idea, but there's definitely like hues, you know, where it's like, like someone's like, Oh, that's red.

You can't really, so yeah, that's 10 times harder. Yeah. I did hear though that the, uh, so for every poisonous plant, there's a complimentary antidote plant within usually like a 50 yard, 50 foot radius or something like that. Yeah. If you can find it or you know what it is. Yeah. That's the thing. So stingy nettle has like, I think it's like milkweed or something like right around it. I don't know if poison ivy has one. I would imagine it would. Yeah. It's got to be everywhere because it's everywhere. Yeah. You always got to be careful that. Yeah. I'll ask Lisa. She's kind of into the whole botanical and natural herbs and stuff right now.

You know, everybody in the pandemic got into herb gardens and gardening. And so, yeah, maybe she knows. Yeah. That'd be good to know. Yeah. Cause, uh, I'm sure you could, uh, I'm sure you can spice all your shit up really pretty good out there with that. Yeah, definitely. There's always nice little tricks along the trail, pick something up and throw it in a pan, cook it up. You know, lupin is good too. They're kind of like, look like the little pea pods. Have you tried those? Yeah. They're pretty good. They're always growing on the side and they just look like a little pea pods and you can eat them and you know, those and all the currents.

It's kind of fun. I heard you can eat the, uh, so on the rock, there's the, uh, the symbiotic fungus thing, the lichen. Yeah. Can you eat the lichen? I think you can. Yeah. Like in a soup or something, you got to cook it. There's all, I think there's rules for certain things too, that you got to like cook certain for a certain amount of time and then it's okay. Yeah. Okay. Not get sick. Yeah. I know there's like a shit ton of lichen types and it's like, I know those were like yellow ones and stuff. And yeah, yeah, I would, uh, that'd be, it'd be interesting to see, but I think I'd have to, I'd have to really trust the person to try some like food on the side.

Yeah. They'd have to know what they're doing. I usually don't try to just like, Oh, let me just try this. But yeah. Yeah. So it could be fun. So we can did it pretty far. Yeah. I know. Um, let's see, let's, I guess you can close off on some of that, uh, yeah, the, uh, the conversation about, uh, phone calls and stuff. What have you, is there anything you've noticed over the course of the last couple months that you've, that you've learned about doing, we've done the videos now more cause more than phone calls with zoom versus phone calls. Um, I know the idea behind that was we were thinking it's hard to say no to your face versus it is on the phone or to say no on the phone versus email.

And certainly don't let people text message you. No, no. That's like, you're not going to get anybody to book via text unless you know them. Right. Like, but I'd say the video, uh, zoom call consults have been like huge. So I think our like turnover rate on getting people to book after that has been much better. Um, whether that's going into a, an appointment or the movement assessment, you know, but they've both been, yeah, they've been pretty successful. I think people just feel like you're actually listening to them and you kind of like, you know, you can show, show me where it hurts. And then they feel like they have more validation, I guess.

I don't know, but it's been good. Do you see that the people who are on, um, that are doing those video calls, like, uh, like, um, virtuals, are they, are they people who just are not willing to come in or is it more convenience? Like I don't need to drive. Cause I know that my interpretation of video calls or, or virtuals in the beginning was just kind of like people saw them as like a, uh, like it, like it's not as good. Um, but I think over the course of time, I feel like everybody's doing zoom, you know, workout classes and so on, where it's like more acceptable that this is like a norm now.

Definitely. Yeah. I think, you know, obviously through the pandemic, people are like, oh yeah, I use zoom for everything. I mean, I was talking to one of my clients and he said that he sees his cardiologist via zoom now, so he doesn't even go in with him. And then he seen like one of his other doctors via zoom. So I think it's becoming, um, more norm. So if you ask somebody like, Hey, do you want to get on a 10 minute zoom chat? Then they're like, yeah, okay, no big deal. So it's a little bit easier, maybe two years ago, that might not have been the case. You know, we may not have had the same success.

Um, but right now it's, it's definitely working. And I think the people that are, uh, getting on the zoom console is typically like from your YouTube channel, right? They'll see videos, they'll see something. And then they're like, Hey, I've got a question or like, Hey, this worked. Like, why did this work? You know? And then they have questions about like what to do and where to go next. Um, but it's definitely expanded, um, the people that are coming through. Yeah. I think it has expanded, you know? And like, um, I know that like, you know, people in Northern California have even, you know, reached out and so on.

Yeah, definitely. We've been able to grow out of that. Not just like right here in, uh, Costa Mesa. Yeah. Um, so we're probably going to go for another maybe 10 minutes here. Um, do you want to talk clinical stuff at all? I, I, I know that your, your clinical reasoning process might be a little different than probably in the most, uh, Cairo students, or I know you've done a lot of workshops and I guess I should tell everybody that Mary Lou has been to, um, quite a few workshops and has, um, been to a lot of things where when she came in as an intern, I really didn't have to teach her that much.

We just have to, I think we just organized parts, right? The thought process. Yeah. Well, the webinars that you did also really helped too. Right. So like I was able to take like all these other workshops and then go into your zoom, uh, like webinars and stuff and to see like from your workshops, like, oh, this is kind of how you put it all together. So I think that definitely helped. So it, it gave me a leg up on coming in here and then understanding your thought process behind like how you, you know, treat your patients and kind of go from there. Um, but yeah, I think it's definitely been beneficial even in, like I said, with clients, I've had people, they're like, oh, I've got this hip thing or I've got this knee thing.

And, you know, um, I mean, I, I, I've even the pseudo it band type of thing. I had a woman, she was like, oh, my it band, you know, and that's been a common thing over the years. People always think I need my it bands work, you know? And you're like, well, why do you think it's your it band? Right. Like now my, my thought process is like, man, like people have a preconceived notion of what it is and it's kind of hard to get them out of that. So I guess for you, you've had more experience in teaching people how to transition that. Like, what do you think? Fine. You know what I mean? Like what's the most useful way to do that?

Well, so, you know, do you remember that guy the other day that came in that, uh, I was doing a lot of tissue work on. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, you were standing in the doorway and I guess I'll paint the picture for everybody. He had, um, he had like thigh pain, like kind of in the it band area, also the like front part of the thigh. And I really wanted to do just an opener, like a lumbar spine opener on him. And, uh, but he was very clear. Like, he's like, Hey, do you, do you still do ART? And I said, yeah, I can do ART. And he's like, well, if you can't, cause I know last time I came, he said, there's other stuff you're doing.

Like, uh, can you send me somewhere who will? And I said, okay, like, come on in, I'll do it, you know? And so I'll do it. And, uh, like w what I was doing in that case wasn't working because he still had a, he had a positive, like femoral nerve tension test. I remember that. And, um, so anyways, like I put them on his side and I was treating his quote unquote hip rotators, but I would also put like a little lift under his abdominal area, like a table lift. We could have used a bolster or something. And then I cranked his, his hip into external rotation, mainly to derive some lateral flexion to his spine.

Yeah. He thought I was doing tissue work when I was really just opening him. So I don't know if you can, like in that situation, he was very clear about what he wanted. And so I don't think trying to change his mind is too worth it yet, but we did get him out onto the floor and I asked him, are you open to doing some other exercises that will help out the tissue work? And we just basically did anti, anti extension. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that was pretty successful. He, he seemed to be happy after that. He got a little bit of what he wanted, but then you gave him, you know, what he needed. Yeah.

But the conversation is funny. Like I haven't done that. I haven't had that conversation in a while about talking about, you know, like, Oh, like this is tight and that's scarred up. And that's, you know, like, cause I just don't say that anymore. Um, but I had to kind of flip the switch. I'm like, well, I can't talk about what I usually do, you know? So we just kind of bullshit about other things. Yeah. Did you find yourself, I guess, having to do that a lot more? It seems like when you were first transitioning from doing more ART style to then, you know, what you're doing now. I don't remember.

Cause I think I would like, I originally went from doing more ART plus weight training or rate and strength conditioning, or, uh, let's just say hard, hard rehab. Okay. So I started doing that. So there was kind of like, they kind of saw it as different. Like they didn't, they didn't interchange for each other. And so I was able to, to kind of flip the conversation that way. And when they saw that working out or, um, doing something physical was helpful to them, they were a little bit more accommodating, you know? Yeah. Um, but you know, there's, there's so many people that come back over the years a little bit and, you know, they're like, well, I still got that thing.

And I think I did that on you and that didn't work. And you're still looking for a solution. Come on back. Let me do something different. Yeah. Sometimes they're open to it. Sometimes they're not, um, you know, they're just junkies for tissue work in that case. And some people are quite honestly, you know, but you had that lady that, um, isn't she like you kept telling her as you thought supportive exercise would be better for her. Right. I mean, and it's like, we still go kind of through that with other people. I'm like, okay, well then I slowly creep in like, okay, let's do 30 minutes of your time with active stuff rather than just the passive stuff.

And they're like, no, okay. You know, but sometimes people just don't want to put in the work, you know, and they're not understanding that that's more beneficial to them than, you know, the passive stuff is just going to be like slapping a bandaid on it, you know? Yeah. I think, uh, like definitely talking to them about the, the, the time constraints is important because, um, I know in the beginning it was kind of like, well, you came in for 20 minutes of tissue work and then we're going to do 15 more minutes of rehab. And I'm not about doing a 45 hour long session, like, unless the person really needs something, but if it's like, like, if this is just like a little, uh, we'll call it fluff, like it's not really helping.

Um, I, I like, you got a choice. What do you want to do today? This or that, or you want to do a percentage, like half and half, you know, but it's, it's not really fair to have the next person waiting. Yeah. So, yeah, definitely. Uh, for, uh, so the classes you've taken, you've done, how many McGill's have you done? Uh, just the one I did level two McGill. I've done neurodynamics, uh, done quite a bit of DNS stuff. So DNS, a, uh, exercise one and two, uh, then I've also like dabbled and they'll have sometimes like, uh, kind of like workshops where you just get to go and practice it. So I've done a couple of those, you know, for DNS and just, you get to practice with other clinicians, similar to what we do, like on our workshops here on Tuesdays, you know, where we just kind of like, okay, get together.

And like, what have you seen? What is like working? What's not working? How can we change this? So those are kind of helpful. Um, and then just other stuff I did like more rehab stuff. What was it? Premier body method. Um, what was it? I mean, I've kind of lost track. The only reason I kind of know a little bit is because I had applied for that PSP recently and I was like, oh, okay. Like, you know, had to go through my whole resume of stuff. And I was like, dang, I've taken a lot of stuff. Hey, you took a good variety of stuff. Yeah. Uh, so you never took, I'm just, I'm curious. Cause you never took, you never took Guido's, uh, tractor state one.

No, no, no. But I did get his book. Okay. Yeah. So I haven't taken, um, workshop wise. I've kind of gotten the books and try to go through those. Well, I was curious. Cause with the, with, so with his, like a tractor state type of thing, like the way we smoke them out here with the exercises is, is kind of on that same thread before you came in, were you, uh, in here, were you using like DNS exercise and things like that more as a lower level, like less intensity, or were you already doing that? No, no, no, actually, uh, less intensity, but I do find that the tension has like just exponentially helped out because it also speeds up the process.

So you can tell somebody like, Hey, we're going to do this exercise, but it's not going to take you, you know, 10, 15 minutes just to feel like you can patch it into your day. The tension and doing the attractor state, like combined with DNS has been like, mind blowing. So, but no, I didn't do that before. Okay. Yeah. I wasn't sure. I wonder if max did, I didn't talk to him about it yet. He might've done a little bit more. Cause he's a little bit, uh, more creative on the training side. You know what I mean? So he might've done a little bit. Um, but yeah, combining those and going a little more high tension in it is definitely giving you like more bang for your buck.

He is all about that kin stretch. Yeah. He's like super kin stretch right now. Uh, as we close, is there anything else you would like to touch on? Uh, no, this has been fun. Okay, cool. Mary Lou. Thanks for being on. Uh, I will see you probably tomorrow. Uh, so Mary Lou is an attorney with me until, uh, August of 2021. So if you guys call the office, you might actually, uh, meet with her and, and, uh, talk with her a little bit. So as you can see, she's, she's very good about communicating. Um, she's done a very good job of, of, um, getting people to understand what we're about, how we can help them.

Uh, and also she's very good clinically too. And so she makes things, she makes things really simple, as simple as possible. And obviously we can always make these things super complicated if we need to, but a lot of times there's no need to. And as long as the person's doing what they need to do to get better and they keep getting better, it, why do we need to complicate and tell them about all the intricacies of things? So, uh, we have a good discussion, uh, between clients and, uh, it's, it's been a great time working with her. I'm thankful that she's, she's been around. So, um, thanks again, Mary Lou, for being on and, uh, everybody subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already.

Uh, also too, uh, I think we've talked about it in the past already, and I'm going to keep mentioning it because I do think it is an important asset for you guys is uh, I have the premium podcast. I have a couple of things that you guys can purchase basically if you want, uh, I don't want to keep shoving it down your throat, but, uh, Mary Lou's been, she mentioned it. We've already been all the interns that come in, go through some of the stuff that are paid products of mine. I originally intended it to create it, create it for them. Cause it makes my life easier as we onboard interns, because, uh, I just keep saying the same thing over and over again.

It's like an automated curriculum that at least we can get bare bones understanding of how at least we, how we operate things here. So you can find the, uh, the five-step series, five-step patient care series, uh, on the website, p2sportscare.com slash products. You can check it out there. Also too, um, I just added the premium version of the podcast, which, uh, people are slowly starting to jump onto there. Thanks for being, thanks for doing that. By the way, uh, it gives me, it's a good feedback knowing that you guys do like the podcast and you're willing to pay for a little bit more. It's pretty cheap by the way.

I just want you guys know. So, um, what we cover in those is mainly case presentations as well as other little tidbits that I don't think are really worth full episodes, but they're really good to use full information. Think about it. It's like, I jumped out of the exam room, uh, and Mary Lou's been shadowing me. And now we're just talking about maybe that case, uh, and, and how we could have done better or how the patient, uh, maybe, maybe some tricky points in the case and so on. And so, um, it's case presentations ideally, but also I'm going to share some other, um, more personal topics that I think that you guys will benefit from as, as clinicians.

Cause I hopefully, uh, I mean, I'm practiced for 12 years. Maybe I've seen something before you, or, you know, maybe we'll help you out on the backend. So anyways, um, take advantage of that links will be in the description in the show notes. I'll see you guys next week. Thanks for being part of the movement.