Why You Should Modify Exercise Instead of Stopping With Pain

But to completely just take her out and say you can no longer be active because of this thing that you have going on in your foot, that is not a very legitimate diagnosis, just kind of hurt me on many levels. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement Podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey everyone, it's Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host with the Restoring Human Movement Podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. If this is your first time on the show, welcome.

This is going to be about an hour format of listening to me interview the guy that you just heard on the little snippet. So, this is a student. This is student interview number four. This is of a chiropractic student. His name is Curtis Gerba. Gerba. I'm going to say it wrong and he's going to correct me. So, that's G-R-Y-B-A. And so, you can look him up on Instagram. It's E3 Mobility. And so, if you have not already heard the other student interviews, the whole point was to actually be able to learn what they're learning or not learning from this podcast. So, I've really been attempting to improve the podcast over the last year or especially after about 120.

And I want to learn how to improve it. So, if you guys are listeners, obviously, if you are, you're listening to this, then email me at seb at p2sportscat.com or reach out on Instagram. That's at performancehp and just let me know. Now, if this is your first time in the podcast again, typically, what the goal of this podcast is, is to improve the relationship between doctor and patient. And so, I really attempt to, we're trying to boil down our communication and improve our ability to communicate what is needed to the patient to get them better. And so, if you're a patient, this is not necessarily going to be extremely technical.

There might be a couple of words you don't necessarily know, but we'll try to clean those things up. Imagine we're all at a bar having a beer. Let's say it's called West Coast IPA from Green Flash. And there's two docs and let's just say a mailman today. And so, we try to make things extremely easy for the mailman and hopefully the mailman will feel better. Now, typically, I'll share a little bit about myself via personal story just so you guys can get to know your host because I do believe you should know your host and like your host or else you can go to a different show. So, let me share that right now and we will get right into the interview.

So, back when I was in chiropractic school, I had this table and probably all the chiropractors know about the astrolite tables and so you can imagine what it was and they don't sell them anymore. But for the most part, like this table, it's fairly cushy and comfy. And so, at the time, like people were, I don't know why, but I was talking to people who were kind of like trying to one-up you on stories about how hard their life has been. And so, like, well, you don't understand, like someone paid for your college and I'm like, well, someone paid for my grad school. And they're like, I'm like, no one paid for my grad school.

And they'll say, well, you know, no one paid for my college, you know. And I had to start working at the age of 16 and blah, blah, blah and so on. And so, I started thinking, I'm like, how can I one-up these people? I'm like, you know what? I can sleep in a cardboard box for a month. And so, I thought, I'm like, well, I don't really want to sleep outside, but I can probably make, get some cardboard boxes and make a little tunnel around this table that, I mean, I could sleep on the table in a house in a cardboard box and legitimately say, legitimately say that I've slept in a cardboard box every night for a month.

I didn't eventually do it, but I thought, you know, this would be something cool to say, kind of like burning a passport, you know. But, never did it, but just a thought, if you guys ever want to say that, you can legitimately say it if you do it. Even if you're inside a house, just don't disclose that last part. Okay, now on to the content. Yeah, it's a, right now, it's the only thing keeping me cold during the night, jeez. Oh, yeah. How hot is it? Well, I'm Canadian, so I go in Celsius. Of course you do. Non-freedom units. But, it's been, like, in the 30s, like, consistently in the 30s, so I guess, like, 90s-ish.

Yeah. And, not really getting any colder during the night. Like, it would go down, like, four degrees over, like, during the course of the night. Wait, four Celsius degrees or four Fahrenheit degrees? Four Celsius degrees. So, that's a big degrees. That's, like, ten degrees, isn't it? I don't know. I think I have to, like, double it and then add, I don't, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. To get the difference, I think you'd say it's 20 degrees Celsius. I think you'd double it and add 30. 32. Probably think 32. Because there's a 32 for some reason on the freezing point for water. Right, right, right. Right, right.

So, we're actually live on here. Oh, no kidding. Perfect. We can cut stuff, too, if you want to, but I find that, especially in the beginning, I've been trying to do a better job of actually just, if there's, it seems like there's good interaction prior to actually talking about stuff. Yeah, ceiling fans and freedom units. Yeah. Well, that's what people care about, you know? It's good stuff. Absolutely. Yeah. So, is there anything you want to talk about today? I was doing some thinking a little bit before, and I think a couple things that really stood out to me to kind of touch on, and all the reading that I'm doing, making sure that you have, like, your wife behind what you're doing, I think, is really important.

And also, I think that one thing in, especially, like, the physical and, like, rehab world, the whole idea of nocebo, excuse me, nocebos is kind of getting a little, like, it's almost being taken a little too far, where people are getting worried to say no to really, like, potentially damaging exercises for people who just don't have that capability yet. Okay. Yeah, we can definitely explore those things. So, you, here's the kind of rules of the game here. By the way, everyone, this is, this is, Curtis, how do you say your last name? Gribba. Yeah. I like it very manly. Thank you. So, here's, actually, there is no rules in this game.

You can, we can edit out anything you want. Just let me know later. Sounds good. You can back and forth conversation, because I know how hard it is to be interviewed. Okay. So, it's a spitball. But, I thought the premise of this, if you, have you heard the other student interviews? Yes. Yes, I have. Okay. And so, it's just, kind of like that. Perfect. Sounds good. Yeah. So, tell everyone about yourself, where you're going to school, what kind of coffee you're drinking. Is it dark, medium, or light roast? Okay. So, my name is Curtis Gribba. I am a Canadian chiropractic student from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

I am going to school in Portland, excuse me, Portland, Oregon, at the University of Western States. We go in quarters, not trimesters, and we go year-round. So, I am in my eighth quarter. I just started working in the clinic. Got five or six patient visits under my belt. I am drinking. It's been a couple busy weeks, actually. I've been lucky enough that lower quarter students have been requesting to come see me in clinic. I'm a rep for the Motion Palpation Institute, so I think that's, kind of, helped a little bit as well. To just be, you know, have the opportunity to put myself, you know, in front of lower students once a week at lunch, and kind of, you know, just kind of expose myself, and hopefully, you know, entice people to come see me.

Yeah. That is part of the whole game, is you got to get people to come. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, what kind of coffee is that again? This is, I'm drinking it black. It is a mixture of a few different blends, because I go to the bulk section at either Winkle or Fred Meyers, and just kind of dabble in whatever smells good. You're the smell guy. There was, I had owned a coffee roasting business for a while, and so I was investigating all the, yeah, no more. But I've become a real coffee snob, and so I started realizing all those different, you know, all the different profiles of roasting is like city, full city, full city plus, French, French, all that kind of stuff.

I think I have a couple different blends of a blonde roast going on in here, but that's the extent of my knowledge. Yeah, there's a, I didn't realize how deep it all went until getting into that. Yeah, for sure. You really, really had to dive down the rabbit hole. Yeah. Why, why'd you get into motion palpation? I'm just curious. For me, there was a couple different things that really kind of drove me into it. I went to a couple seminars, and first of all, Corey Campbell, I don't think there's any better person to take my first seminar from. Just incredibly talented, and has the same humor that I do, that of pretty much a 15-year-old pubescent boy.

So, you know, and every seminar, I've taken three seminars from him now, and at the end of every single seminar, he goes into this whole chat about how much chiropractic means to him, about how it's been given him the opportunity to support his family, to have a really positive impact on people's lives, and given him the opportunity to put himself and meet students like us. And during every one of those speeches, no matter how or where it is, he gets so passionate and so, you know, worked up about that every single time, he gets teared up. So, it, you know, that was a very kind of eye-opening experience for me to have an opportunity to learn and be surrounded by people just that passionate about this profession.

And then there, I was also very fortunate enough to have an upper-quarter student kind of take me under her wing. And she, she ended up also being a Motion Palpation Institute rep. And, you know, through her, I just saw all the benefits of how her confidence built and how she grew throughout her time in school. And when she kind of offered me her rep position, to me, at that point, it just became a no-brainer. Mm-hmm. I did. So, I think on the idea of confidence there, I think that's a big point, too, is the, so you feel much more confident now having those skills. Absolutely. Do you see other students that are around you, too, having this, the same confidence?

Or do you guys even talk about that? Or, I don't think we did when we were in school, really. I think getting that confidence is a huge deal because there's, there's a kind of a group of us, probably 10 or 15, who will consistently put in, like, extra time during lunch, go to clubs such as MPI or R2P and everything like that. And then, as we went into clinic just a few weeks ago, it was, you were really able to tell the people that were, that were confident going in. Obviously, the whole part of it was in the profession that we chose. We're always going to be learning stuff. There's always going to be room for improvement.

But you could definitely tell the people that were confident in their ability, ability to go in and perform the skills that we have, perform the skills that we have learned, be able to go through the neuros for cervicals, lumbar, the neuro and orthos for cervicals and lumbars, you know, and be confident with our ability to adjust the patient and to give adequate rehab for the areas of comfort that we currently have. Yeah. I think it's, I remember having the first few patients at clinic, I remember that the, the interaction was, it was, it was not as easy as I thought it was going to be. And the history taking, it was not as easy as I thought it was going to be.

So it was, oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh no, go, go ahead. I was going to say my first patient, like I showed up to my first shift in clinic after we got our like clinical entrance exam done. And my clinician looks at me and she's like, Hey, do you want a patient? I'm like, absolutely. I want a patient. Let's go. And then I ended up, it was, uh, it was a student patient and I knew exactly what the person was coming in for. And I just had this moment of like, Oh my God, not this one. Cause, um, everybody that I've known come before, like, um, my friends who ended up passing me her position as rep to MPI and the girl before her who gave her position rep to, like rep position to MPI all had these, uh, shoulder cases given to them.

And for some reason we don't, we only start learning like our shoulder orthos and neuros while we're already in clinic. Oh, really? Oh, you just, you just, you don't know what the hell to do with this person. I looked and was like, I have a shoulder case coming in and like, I know like from all the, like I'm a seminar junkie. So from all the seminars I've done, like I can rehab this shoulder. No problem. But if you ask me to do the six or seven different ortho tests that we need, then we're going to have some issues. But the great thing about it is that the entire time we have, like we have secondaries in the room with us and we get paired up with upper quarter secondaries who have been doing this, you know, have been in that clinic system for a year plus.

So, uh, they're just kind of helping me. Okay. Do this test, do this test, do this test. And, you know, uh, based on the tests, I was able to come to the proper diagnosis. Clinician agreed with me. Treatment went on. We were happy campers from then on out. So you're pretty seamless at shoulders now. Uh, there's still a lot to, as far as the, again, as far as learning the neurons and the orthos, uh, still room to grow. And obviously with the rehab and everything, there's always going to be more to learn, but I've kind of dove down the DNS rabbit hole. I've dove down into, you know, the functional range systems with FR and FRC.

So once I can kind of get a general idea of, you know, am I dealing with a scapular stability issue? Am I learning with, am I working with a shoulder that just doesn't work like a shoulder? Like, do we have just gross range of motion issues? I kind of know the areas that I can dive down to and where to add stability and where to add mobility and kind of work in through there. Well, at least that like, I mean, my, my observation was like a lot of, let's just say knees, shoulders are kind of the, I think same in this is that it seems like in a lot of times, aside from trauma being like a wild card, it, I feel like, I mean, the diagnosis is there.

It's like a chopped up like bit of whatever we want to call it, but it's kind of like it, I feel like a lot of them kind of get there the same way or similar ways. And, um, I remember I did the, um, I, I did the DACBSP and so in there, there was a, there was an examination station. So there was upper, there was concussion, there was lower and blah, blah, blah. And so it was the upper station. And so I actually failed that and I didn't quite understand why. And so I went back the second time and took this thing and you can obviously get shoulder wrist, whatever. Um, I ended up getting a wrist the second time, but, but I was thinking that as I went through, uh, I, I wrote this whole like pissed off manuscript of like all of the tests that I would do, all the sensitivity, specificity, here's the documentation for it.

So if they ever came a problem, a problem again, like I failed it, I was just going to throw it at them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I became pretty good at shoulder exams and after that one. Yeah, I think that might be, have to, might be a route that I have to take to get my examination and orthos down. But one thing I've in a couple of the seminars that I've taken, uh, one thing that's especially, I think is especially pertinent in shoulders and hips is one thing to keep in mind is that like our body thinks in movements, not muscles and specific joints or everything like that. So instead of working well, if I'm going into a shoulder flexion, is my, are my muscles sinking or working in the exact proper way that they're supposed to, or is there just a really gross inability to do that particular motion?

And if there is an inability to do that particular motion, are we really able to absolutely nail it down to one or three particular, one, two or three particular tissues? Or are we better off just working on making our body being able to do that motion better? And so, so when you're in your interacting with patients now, are, are they, are you finding they're, they're talking about muscles still? Cause I know that I still get that a lot in my clinic. It's, they don't seem to, they say they can't reach over a head, but they equate it to one muscle being a problem. Yeah. Um, I haven't had that issue yet because in the few patients that I've had, they've all been students.

So there's absolutely more than one muscle that's being the issue. It's like, they come in and it's like, Oh my, I've been studying for the past, whatever. And my entire back or my entire upper half of my body is sources. So, uh, so far I haven't had that experience in talking to a patient, like into a patient in the clinic, but in talking with family members or stuff like that, you know, as an example, going overhead, it's like, Oh, I can't go over my overhead. Like my lat is just like, or like the side of my body here. I think it's my lat. It's just killing me. It's like, well, that potentially could very well be your lat, but is it just because you, do we really have an inability for that muscle to lengthen or, or is your body just not confident going in that overhead position because you don't, you don't really ever do it?

Yeah. Well, so when, when you have, when you have family talking about that and talking about their lat, do you like, how far do you, do you allow them to, or how far, how far do you let it go where they just like keep talking about their lat before you just kind of like, okay, let's, let's just let them put you to that range and just let it, let it happen, you know? Yeah. Um, I kind of, I think one thing that I want to, I'm practicing with my family and I think is going to be one thing that I want to hopefully incorporate as I go down is I want, again, this will probably be dependent on the person, but I want to kind of give them the opportunity to explain to me what they think is going on.

Obviously I don't want it to be a 15 to 30 minute explanation, but why their lat is tight. But once they kind of give like this very, I want to give them the opportunity to kind of give their accounts of what's happening and then be able to have a conversation with them and actually hopefully have a whiteboard or something like that where I can actually like draw it down. It's like, well, you're maybe feeling it along the side of your body here while you're trying to go overhead, but really like, it's not a muscle lengthening issue. Like research, research has shown that that's not the issue that we're dealing with.

That's more so actually a neurological issue for the most part where our body just is actually causing a contraction, not allowing our muscle to move in that way because we don't, our body doesn't feel strong in that position. Yeah. The, uh, I definitely think education is a good part of it. There's, um, uh, I tend to go, um, I, whatever, whatever terminology they tend to use. Um, they say they're talking about their ladder piriformis or whatever the muscle muscle they think is the devil. Uh, I kinda, I kinda pick up on that and, uh, I start using it in my conversation too when I echo things back to them, but I'll start dropping mine in too.

Um, and usually what will happen is like, I, I kind of play like middle ground and it's like, look, it could be the lat, it could be that, it could be something else. But you know what? The cool thing is that actually whatever we do today, if, if I do something to your neck and your lat gets better, let's just assume it's not your lat and something connected there. And so, um, I'm like, conversely, it might not work at all. You might be right. It might be a lat. And so you can kinda, like, I tell them, like, I'm not offended either way. It's, it's not like, um, I'm personally offended by what the diagnosis is, but, um, I, I try to get, at least get them into the point where they, they realize that, that we're investigating together versus like, I don't, I don't want to argue with them about it, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. I, I think that's a, I think that's a really good way of going about it and probably something that I should take notes on and incorporate. Yeah, it's, there's, I think, I think, uh, um, I'm sure you're going to, you're going to be really good, even better at communicating than, I mean, you're already better off than I am where you're at in the tournament, but. Thank you. Yeah. Um, but I, I think it took me, it took me years to even stop arguing with the person about what I thought it was and it wasn't that I was feeling, it wasn't that I was feeling like I was, I was trying to prove something.

It was just like, I knew, I felt what they were talking about was wrong, but it wasn't really a barrier for getting them better, really. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I guess there's no need to argue about things that won't really change the outcome. Yeah, it's, and I think when you have a lot of time, it's not a big deal, but if you're, if you only got an hour with that person and they want to talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. Kind of. And that's kind of, uh, I think that's going to be a really big difference in going back to the Canadian system opposed to the American system is that our, our service structure or even like our fee structure and everything is just set up in an interesting way where almost, it almost limits our time that we can kind of spend in the patient and spend with the patient, which is kind of, I think it's kind of silly.

Like they give these really kind of like blankets, you can do as much of this as you want, but you will only get this amount of money. Like you could do, adjust their entire body. You could do, and they're, all of their body's adjustment is just one blanket, just one blanket charge. Is, is, uh, do you guys have to take the, um, the non, non-free healthcare up there or whatever? The, the Celsius healthcare. Um, you, so the healthcare, the health, you can absolutely still do cash, but even like your, your cash charges are still kind of monitored by the, um, by your provincial board. Oh, really? Yeah.

So let's just say you want to adjust head to toe. You couldn't say that's $300. They'll say, hmm, the other guys are charging. 45 to 55. Can you, can you charge something that is not monitored by like, uh, like a non-tangible? Like, um, you also gave him a piece of your hair when you adjusted him and that's $250. The healing powers of the hair. Yeah. Cause is that not a lot? I mean like you're selling, cause like that's like nutrition. You know, like supplementation, like it's different than adjusting, right? Absolutely. Um, I, I have to look at still a little bit further into it because I'm pretty sure like you can give additional charges, say like for, uh, rehab exercises and, uh, a few things like that.

Or if you're using physiotherapy modalities, then you can increase those charges like five or $10 per usage. I think, um, I don't know if there's an, uh, for sure charging code for the powers of healing hairs or crystals, but I can look into that. You can play nice music during which, or you can play really shitty music and then the shitty music's free, but the nice music costs you $250. Yeah, absolutely. And then if when, while I'm shaving the hair, I could either use like the really nice clippers or just like bring out the, like a old rusty hatchet and kind of go after it. I thought you're going to go with that tweezers.

We're going to just going to do like one at a time. Yeah. Oh, I think that would just be worse for me than it was for them. So yeah. Um, gosh, well, yeah, I'm going to play a game right here real quick then if we can. Um, how, how much could we, if we're going to like put together like a sandwich of, of charges for one chiropractic visit in, in Canada for a 30 minute session, what is the highest amount you can possibly like be reimbursed? Like, or not just from the healthcare system, but from the patient, like what would that entail? So I'll touch on two points there. Um, the kind of the general charge, like if it was going to be a first patient visit, the kind of standard first patient visit that I've seen where I'm from, uh, in Saskatchewan, it's kind of a 40, 45 minute first patient visit.

And the charge will typically be about $85. Um, which obviously includes like history, physical, um, some past patient health, family history and like the personal social. Um, and then after that, again, the kind of structure that I've seen where I'm from is your second visit include is going to be, it's going to be 30 minutes. It's going to include the review of findings and treatment and kind of go from there. Uh, obviously within that first visit, you're still going to get the treatment. Um, as long as you don't have some crazy, ridiculous symptoms going all the way down to your toes or something like that.

You can't retreat ridiculous, ridiculous in day one. Um, I guess as long as they're not, as long as you're not, uh, losing the functions of your bowel and bladder then. Oh God. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. That was my fault. I, I, I just took the fix your own back course. I should know better than that. Yeah. Oh yeah. You were just there. Yeah. That was good. That was a, that was a big showing there, wasn't it? Yeah. There was 80 some people there. It was great. Um, and then, so as far as the, as far as kind of like the reimbursement side of things, you kind of have two options. Uh, you can do the insurance game or you can do cash.

Um, and the cash at this point in Canada, it's almost getting kind of silly to start to play the insurance game because with technology and everything like that, it's just becoming so easy to get reimbursed for, you know, paying, paying out of the pocket. Um, my girlfriend just had her ACL reconstructed, uh, just about eight months ago. And the clinic that she went to for her rehab was cash based. And so she pays cash. She gets a receipt. She takes a picture of the receipt, uploads it to her, to her bank's like online app or healthcare app and she gets direct deposit, like directly back into her checking account.

Mm hmm. So it's just becoming really straightforward to just kind of take cash opposed to doing the insurance. I think it seems, I feel like it'd seem easier. Like with, like even with working with, um, I feel like when people are paying cash, it's like where if they hand it over a little bit, it's they, even if they're going to get it back, like, I feel like they, they take their, their recovery a little bit more seriously. You know, there's some skin in the game. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I a hundred percent agree with that. If you don't have to, if you don't have to at least give a, even like a temporary investment into the treatment that you're going through, then you're not going to be as invested into everything that you're doing.

Um, so you, you were mentioning, talking about then the, the why behind what we're doing. Mm hmm. Let's talk about that. Sure. Um, I have a couple, I have a couple stories that kind of go along with how I got directly involved into, uh, the chiropractic and kind of like physical, uh, uh, physical, uh, I guess care world, um, they're going to be slightly out of the sequence, but I'll kind of go, I guess, in orders of like effectiveness. Um, so I used to play a university football at the university of Saskatchewan. Um, I, you know, got a few scholarship offers coming out of high school, decided to stay home and play football there, finish my rookie season.

And during, uh, during the winters, we would have, uh, winter workouts and winter practices. It'd be an indoor stadium and it was our last practice of the winter. And I had just a catastrophic knee injury. Um, like I tore my ACL, my LCL, my PCL, my arcuate ligament, my popladeal tendon, uh, both bicep femoris tendons. I destroyed the capsule of my knee and I ended up tearing my peroneal nerve as well. Mm God. So, you know, like I, yeah, so it was brutal. The rehab kind of, it was to the point where it took me nine months to be fully walking again, like crutch free. Um, and it was kind of like a three and a half year long process of, you know, I was, when I got injured, I was 18 years old and dumb.

It was like, ah, this doesn't matter. I'll get back and I can play football again. And so three and a half years, almost four years later, I kind of completed my entire rehab process. I played one more season of football and slightly tore my medial meniscus. And I decided that if it all, if I continue playing and just continue injuring myself, then that's probably not worth it. But that was really kind of like an eyeopening experience of, to me at that point in time, the whole physical rehab world wasn't necessarily on my radar at all. It was very much, you know, I was looking at other areas as I had always been interested in movements and being active and working out.

But the actual care side of things I never really experienced to obviously that extreme that I did went until I became seriously injured. And, you know, during that time, I absolutely understood the, you know, I was able to like firsthand experience the entire spectrum of, you know, the, what injured athletes and injured people go through. And, you know, I went from being a very healthy, active, independent person to being, you know, completely inactive. You know, I've had, I've had three surgeries on that knee after my first surgery, I was in the hospital for a week to manage pain. The pain was actually so like the, it was such a invasive surgery that actually following, immediately following it, they, the surgeon didn't feel like normal painkillers would be enough.

So they actually essentially gave me an epidural and just froze the entire lower half of my body. So, you know, I went from being completely active, independent, healthy to, you know, being inactive, bedridden, uh, dependents. Like my knee was locked at a 15 degree angle. So I couldn't, the only way I could fit into a vehicle was by lying sideways across the back seat. Uh, so I had to be driven everywhere. I had to rely on everybody to do anything. Like I was on crutches. It's always kind of difficult to, to carry things or take care of yourself or to, you know, to go long distances on your own.

So I had to depend on everybody. And that also just kind of showed me the whole, how being physically active and, you know, healthy, how that completely kind of changes, like the mental status of a patient, you know, and how, you know, it's, it really just comes down to that entire whole, it's essentially changing your life and what you've been used to for the past 18 years. In my case, just in the flick of a switch and all of a sudden, everything that you're used to doing is just kind of turned upside down and then having a good competent therapist, like rehab specialist on the other side, take walking you through that process, encouraging you along the way and making sure that you're doing the right things at the right time in order to put yourself in the situation to be successful is a complete game changer.

Like if I didn't have a rehab specialist that I trusted in order to take me through that process, I wouldn't have made it back to play football again in those three and a half years. Like it's still, it took me forever, but that was a, you know, that's a knee issue, not a, not a rehab issue. So if I feel like if people aren't in situation to have those, those very talented and educated specialists to take them through that journey, then a lot of people are just going to, they're just going to let their injuries and their, I guess, limitations define them and not really battle through in order to be, in order to become, you know, back better to where they were prior to that injury.

Yeah, it's, it's, uh, yeah, I know. So you're, you've had the, uh, I guess fortunate nature to be a, be a patient with a, with a long-term problem now. Um, not, not everybody gets that, that chance, not that you necessarily want it, but, but it's tough. Um, but I think you're right. Like it's, it's nice to be able to be the person to guide the person, but as the patient on, on that side, um, how much were you willing to trust that provider? Or a different provider or like, what was the tipping point where you decided that person was the one who was going to help you? Uh, for me, I, I don't have a great answer to that question because my choice of provider was kind of given to me because there was a, there was a physiotherapist and a kind of like therapy team directly associated with the football team.

Um, so, and I've had, you know, I've had a few minor injuries in the past, you know, with playing football, you know, you don't kind of, you rarely go through a season with nothing going wrong. And it was, I guess, throughout those kinds of periods of those minor injuries where you can kind of just sit back and listen to how she interacted with her patients and interacted with the football team that you understand how intelligence and smart that she was, that it was very easy for me to trust her and doing and giving me and taking me along the journey that I needed to go on to, you know, get back to where I wanted to be.

Oh, good. So, so she, so she got your trust with, um, with her knowledge at that point and carrying it, I'm guessing. Yeah. The, the, the only reason I, I'm asking is because there's, it's, uh, you weren't, I guess I wouldn't consider you a chronic pain person. You were, you were athletic. You had a good mental mindset about it. But when, um, I've known some people when they've gone through multiple people, they, they're, they're skittish, I guess, in a way, and they jump. And the, the, the tough thing is that in those situations is nobody gets to, to help guide this person because they keep jumping to somebody new and, you know, develop a good long-term relationship with them, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. But, but it sounded like you had a good one in the, in the beginning there. Yeah. I was very fortunate that I did have a good one, you know, a good physiotherapist from the gecko to kind of take me along and, you know, keep battling through where I, to where I needed to get to. And very fortunate, like, you know, obviously throughout my injury, there are points in time where I wasn't the easiest patient to deal with because, you know, I'm always, I'm always going to be a stubborn football player. That's just how things go. But, you know, she had to deal with that, you know, she was there for 10 plus years.

So she's, she knew exactly what that entailed and exactly how to handle all the shit that I was giving her. So it was perfect. You guys still trade Christmas cards? I, I go and visit her as much as I can when I go back home. I sent her a set of flowers every now and then. Oh, nice. It's, I, I feel like there's, there, you might not have gotten it yet. I mean, but I feel like you've experienced it from the patient side now is that I think there's a, there's a relationship that sticks and there's like a fondness for that person who helps you through that thing. Absolutely. So it's, I think as, as we get more patients and you experience more patients, you'll probably find a couple who are just like, like think you're just a God, like you're the best because you help them through something, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's, you know, like you said, I definitely found that in mine, in my physical therapist while I was going through that. And, you know, I think that that's a very special relationship to potentially build with someone that, you know, it's, it's not a very common thing that a lot of people can experience because it, like I said, it's very special and unique when you're building a relationship between yourself and whether you're on the patient side or the doctor side and someone who's guiding you through, you know, one of the more difficult times in their lives. Yeah. And I don't know if, um, like if, if the listeners haven't experienced like, uh, like an event like yours, it's, I think it's hard to, to understand that from that side because it's just like, it's just no, they're at the office, you know, for most people and you don't really think about what that person's going through and, and that you are a important guide in that pivotal, like it's a tough point, real tough point.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, it definitely makes me excited to, you know, be on the guiding side of, of the patients that I have the, you know, privilege of interacting with. Yeah. Well, I bet, I bet too, if you, um, I mean, I typically share with, with, with patients then begin, if I see that they're, I see that they're not necessarily reluctant, but like I want to break the ice is, is like, I want to get on their level a little bit and just, just let them know I've, I've been there too. And so I bet if you share that with your people, like you probably won't even have to explain anything just like, they're going to be like, Oh, this guy's been through it.

I get it, you know, or he gets it and it's a good trust thing. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I can definitely break the ice in a few different ways. Like I still, um, I still carry a foot drop with me. Like I had a nerve graft done to try to repair my peroneal nerve. Um, but you know, nerves are finicky and we'll only heal as much as they do. So I, I still have a little bit of a foot drop and my friends at school here will ever so lovingly call me flipper and I will trip on a flat sidewalk at any point in time. So I can definitely predict myself tripping into a treatment room during, throughout my career rather frequently.

Yeah. Well, at least they call you flipper, not tripper. Well, I hope they don't listen to this cause now they're probably going to change that. Yeah. It's, uh, I, I kind of wish that I had, uh, I had every type of condition for one day. Yeah. And then it would just go, go away. Yeah. The experience one. Yeah. Get experience everything at least once so that you know what people are going through. Yeah. Um, who would you, what condition do you feel like you would want to specialize in if you had to pick a couple anyways, I guess. Oof. Football knees? Ah, on this. So actually, even though I was a football player, I'm actually really aiming towards, uh, working with the gen pop.

Um, I feel like, um, it's just some, they're the general population is just, uh, you know, a market of people that I don't want to say need a lot of help, but, uh, uh, there are a population of people who are constantly trying to improve themselves and aren't always necessarily exposed to the proper information. Right. I can agree with that. So, and this just kind of epitomize, um, you, we started talking on Instagram, obviously, and there was someone back from my hometown who messaged me and was sorry. I noticed on their, uh, Instagram feed that they said that they were unable to work out for a few weeks and I just looked at it and I sent them a message.

It's like, Hey, what's going on? I'm like, why can't you work out? And she's like, Oh, um, I've been having some foot pain for a while. So I went to go see my, uh, primary care physician and I was diagnosed with, uh, plantar fasciitis and I was told I can't work out for at least three weeks. I was just like, Oh no, like, uh, like I, you know, and this just kind of epitomizes everything that I feel about it because, you know, I'm sure I don't know how many people know, but plantar fasciitis is a garbage diagnosis at the best of times with, you know, maybe only, you know, 5% of people actually diagnosed with it truly have injury to their plantar fascia.

And then to say to someone who is trying to, trying to improve their health, trying to like work hard in order to be healthier and more fit, you know, like this particular individual was really big into doing the bootcamps and everything like that. Um, would I have recommended that she continue to do the bootcamps? Probably, probably not. Like I think that's, um, just looking at her particular health journey, I think that she probably needed a little bit more of the strength training side and like really working on that stability before, you know, getting into those really dynamic movements, but to completely just take her out and say, you can no longer be active because of this thing that you have going on in your foot, uh, that's, is not a very legitimate diagnosis.

Just kind of hurt me on many levels. Yeah. I feel you. The, uh, I think it's, I think it's ridiculous to like, to disabling somebody is basically like disabling and deconditioning. And like, I, I don't quite understand the, the, the whole, like you hurt a foot. And so I can't do like, Oh, I can't do X, Y, and Z. I can't do any resistance training at least. And it's like, what does a, what does a foot got to do with it? Um, even if it really was plantar fasciitis, which probably not, um, she can, she can still skate. Like I think scaling things back and maybe like if, if she would understand that just because you can't squat doesn't mean you, or, uh, say deadlift on that, maybe you can do a hip hinge or maybe you can do like a barbell hip thruster.

Maybe you can go half kneeling, tall kneeling. It's just, it's just crazy. Yeah. There's so many options. This, and this actually goes really well into the other thing that, that I mentioned I wanted to talk about, it's a whole idea of people are getting scared to not to tell people not to do things. It's like, well, it's not just telling people not to do things. It's maybe avoiding that particular provocative activity, but then replacing it with something that's still works and is still good, but just is slightly more tailored to their current abilities while you work back up to getting them into there.

So, you know, as a classic example is, well, is she trying to do strict overhead presses or push presses without being able to unload it, get her hand directly above her head? Well, if not, we probably shouldn't load that, but that doesn't mean that we can't put her in front of a landmine and have her do push presses there. Yeah. I totally agree. Or even just exposure to overhead in like a, like a downward dog position, push the floor away. I kind of like, like there's no reason to like strip the entire movement unless maybe for a couple of days. But after that, like, yeah, you got to start loading it a little bit.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was kind of thinking recently about the, uh, we had, me and DMACC did a, we did a whole shoulder module, upper quarter module for loading. And, and so we're, um, we were kind of talking about where a lot of it was overhead. And so I think, you know, people are told like at a certain point, they're like, you should not lift five pounds over your head ever again. And these people continue to have shoulder pain after that. Jeez. It's like, can you, I was thinking about like, you know, like if you can't go overhead, you don't, you don't really drive in the lower trap, uh, middle trap, serratus, like you kind of lose a lot.

And it seems like the upper trap levitor seems to chill down in overhead position. And so is it perpetuating the problem by telling them not to do anything overhead? You know, yeah, probably a little bit, I guess, as long as like, as long as I think, you know, one thing to make sure as well is that people actually know how to get overhead. Cause a lot of people are like, well, I can't get my arms overhead. I don't know what to do, but that's because throughout their entire like workout time, everybody has been telling them to keep their shoulder blades back in their back pocket. And they're not actually teach them that the shoulder blade is, needs to be mobile and stable in different positions.

And it needs to work around your rib cage in order to allow you to get overhead without just impinging everything. Yeah. We should do a whole podcast series on the dumb things that, that people still, still believe like not in a demeaning way, but it's like, stop, stop, stop believing that please. You know? Yeah, absolutely. Like the knee past toe thing. I think we've been beyond that for a long time, but people still hang on to that. Oh, and social media is just a hotspot for that. Like how many times will you see in the comment section of any activity posts like, oh, you're squatting with your knees past your toes.

That's not healthy for you. It's like, well, uh, come if, you know, if they have an outrageous meniscal injury, then maybe we want to limit the amount of direct stress that we put on the knee. But other than that, I feel like everything you need to do is, as long as they're, you know, as long as it's, as long as they have the ability to do so, do it. Yeah. Well, I think, uh, um, what we should probably cover here just in case like that, I want to assume the listeners know what we're talking about. Um, I think it's fair to say that, so, um, if you have a problem, um, say with your knee in a certain direction, you take the direction away for a first aid period of time and then you reintegrate.

It doesn't mean you can't do it ever again. And so, um, if you haven't had this conversation with your patients, I think you should. Um, one of the common things that I think people get it with that I've seen people come in is they, they bending forward for their lumbar spine feels like the devil. And then they don't do that anymore and they end up with a ridiculous symptom. So, uh, having that conversation about reintegration and I, I literally say this about three, four times to my patients throughout the first examination. To be clear, this is a first aid. Do not leave a bandaid on your skin for the rest of your life.

Please come back and we'll, we'll take the first aid away. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, uh, touching on that lumbar flexion is also a really good one too, because yeah, if you're coming in with a low back injury for a little bit, just for a little bit, like we're going to change your movement strategies to make sure, you know, as like the classic Philip Snell is like, we don't want to continuously pick the scab of something healing. So like, let's just like change your movement strategy for a little bit, give everything some time to heal. We're going to teach you a hip hinge. We're going to teach you how to deadlift.

We're still going to teach you how to be strong. And then once all of your symptoms are going away and once we have managed that, then move however your body so chooses. Yeah. And I think the discussion too with, uh, with or without accessory load is, or weight training, I think is an important conversation with all, with all these joints. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Um, that's a very prominent conversation to have as well, because I, again, I've mentioned that I kind of fell into like the whole DNS side of things, which I really enjoy. And one of the things that, uh, I took the weightlifting, uh, portion of DNS from, uh, Dr.

Richard Alm. And his big thing is when we're going into a lift, you want to brace yourself as much as you need, but as little as possible. So when you're adding external load, that's when having your joints centrated into where the load is going to be managed over all of the tissues surrounding that joint is important. Like if you're going to be loading your spine with an, with a barbell squat or something like that, flexion or extension, overloading one side of those tissues is not going to be beneficial for you or same thing with that overhead press or anything like that. But again, you know, without external load, you know, you don't need a constant, you don't need a deadlift or do a perfect hinge in order to pick up the napkin from the floor that you dropped while you're making, you know, while you're making dinner.

Right. Unless you're flexion intolerant and then, then you, then you add it back, then you add it back again. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. There's a time and place for movement modification and that's what, I mean, that's the realm that we live in as, as I guess, movement practitioners. You just have to, you guide them through it, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, uh, as we start to, we're going to start to wrap up pretty soon. We've been talking for a little bit. This has been 48 minutes now, I think. Oh, not bad. I know. We've gotten to some good stuff there. Um, can I ask you a couple of questions about, uh, I need to learn something from you?

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And so, um, I know since you've heard the other, the other ones, uh, the other student interviews, the reason why I want to start conducting them is because I want to hear, um, hear from the listeners and, and learn about what the other side is thinking about this, uh, this forum, um, and how it can improve the podcast and all that kind of jazz. So, um, I guess start out with, um, what, what is working for you by listening to this podcast and what is not working? Well, for me, it's going to be a lot easier to answer what is working. Um, cause I think your last student interview kind of touched on this.

It's, I think it was Hannah that I listened to and she kind of called this like media learning or something along those lines, I believe. And I was listening to a different podcast or I think maybe I was listening to an audio book and I completely forget who the exact author was, but you know, we are at a time where information can be so readily available to us that we can be in our car driving, um, you know, driving to work, driving back home, driving to just get groceries or anything like that. And we have so much information readily available to us. And it, so with the amount of information that we have, we can just constantly expose ourself to that information that we want to be able to, you know, become masters with.

And you take that amount of hours that you need to spend to become a master at something. And now you don't just need to spend those minutes or hours at school or studying. Like you can optimize your time and listen to a podcast on your way to work, on your way to school, you know, while you're cleaning your kitchen or anything like that. So if we can just expose ourself to an additional hour per day while listening to a podcast like this, we're just going to decrease the amount of time that we need in order to become a master at our skill. Nice. What are some of the other podcasts you listen to that you'd suggest?

I've, I've been diving into Kevin Christie's podcasts about chiropractic marketing, which I think, you know, I, the whole like marketing business side of things can't be forgotten about our particular profession. You know, especially there's going to be the treatment side of things and there's going to be the business side of things. And if you can't, if you don't have a thriving business, then you're not going to be able to have, you know, you're, then you're not going to be, you're not going to have a full office full of people, or you're not going to be able to have the opportunity to train people, to train more people, to have associates with you in order to help more people, you know, make it, make their way through their injuries and live their best lives.

Um, I've also kind of been diving into just healthcare in general podcast, the Kyle Kingsbury podcast from on it. Um, it's kind of a, it can be interesting at times you kind of have to pick and choose the people that you listen to. Um, but you've turned off some of them halfway, haven't you? Yeah, well, there's been like, there's, but there's been a few ones that are absolute, like just absolute gold as well. Um, where, you know, you can listen to guys like Ben Greenfield and who have pretty much take natural medicine because they're, you know, as wealthy as they are, they can take natural medicine and buy anything that they could ever dream of in order to essentially nearly live like a caveman in modern society.

And it's like, well, if you'll, you know, take diving, I've been reading books about like the whole like evolutionary evolutionary biology approach to just being healthy. It's like, man, if we could halfway live like cavemen for 90% of our day, that wouldn't be too bad. Right. You mean cavemen didn't eat stuff out of styrofoam containers? Sadly not. No, the antelope didn't have, they didn't pack their Tupperware with them. Yeah. Oh, cool. I've heard that one actually. Yeah. Um, it's that, it's a pretty good podcast. And he's also had, I think, Mark Ruscio about like probiotics and stuff like that on there, which is, you know, the whole idea of guys' health is also becoming a lot more prevalent today.

So there's, you can definitely listen to some big names on that podcast. It's a pretty good one. Cool. Yeah. There's, there's, there's a few podcasts that I've heard where intermittently I like to listen to them and it's really selective. Uh, and like some people are just really good interviewers. I just learned, I learned a lot personally just from hearing people ask questions. So yeah, for sure. Getting information out of people. Mm hmm. Um, the clinic gym radio has also been one that I've been diving into. You know, I've, I've heard of people liking that one. I haven't heard that saddle, saddleies, right?

Yes. I, I, I, I heard him talking on somebody else's podcast before, but I haven't, I've not heard the, I haven't heard his actual podcast yet. I will though. I'll listen to it. Yeah. It's, it's a good one to just kind of change the, to, to look at the different model that you can kind of bring into your clinic and, you know, get that recurrent income from memberships and everything like that. It's an interesting idea to think about. Mm hmm. The, um, just, just thought on that. Cause I, we, my interns were talking about this the other, the other day was that, um, so we have, we have people come in here that, that they, they're, I would, I call them conditioning clients.

Like they still have a little bit of things here and there that aren't that big. Like they're definitely not lit up, but they come back for, for programming and instruction and coaching. And so he, uh, one of the interns yesterday had, he said, uh, he's like, how come you don't suggest everybody come back for that? You don't have some people. And I'm like, well, I don't want to, I don't want to seem salesy with it. And like, it's not, I'm like my, my income is not dependent upon these, these people. Um, cause I have new patients coming in and based upon the interaction we have with them, it's, or I, if I have with them, if I see the potential to make them, um, independent and if they have, you know, bags at home, old Jansport backpacks and they have tools and they're willing to walk around the neighborhood and look like a fool doing carries, I want them to, I swear that's the ideal environment.

But if they're not going to do that, I look at it as an opportunity to, to nurture good habits and one day a week, one day every two weeks and attempt to get them into that lifestyle, but that's why I would use more of a, so I guess we kind of do it like a gym clinic setting, but there's not a membership model with the gym. It's just a one-on-one, two-on-one coaching in an effort to get them out, you know? Yeah, that's kind of something similar to, I guess, what I envision my clinic having is once I'm able to afford to have a few, uh, like kinesiologists or, you know, kinesiology grads and stuff like that, to be able to almost have near personal training, like one-on-one or two-on-one coaching where we're still able to get everything, the proper movement patterns and to, like you said, to like get them independence in their own, in their health.

Cause like once we teach them, you know, how to hinge, hinge, squat, push, pull, carry, you know, safely and in a great way for their body type and their anatomy and they, then they can take that and they can go do their thing elsewhere. Yeah. And I think a lot of people too, if they, I mean, if they've been feeling like if they're gen pop or athletes or whatever, like it's, sometimes it's, it's easy to forget that like how good, how good it feels to feel good. And they're in pain so long and they finally get out of pain and all of a sudden they hit that realm where they're, they're just like, I feel so good.

I don't want it to come back. And they think that non-movement or non-loading is a solution. And, and so there's, there's a guiding process needed in there and they might only have trust in you because you were that guide and they don't have trust in your other recommendation, your strength coach or your trainer. And so I think that handholding is required. I think. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. Um, I want to ask you too is just for my own personal knowledge, is there anything on this podcast where you thought, Hey, uh, I'm going to start using that in my, in, uh, when I become a clinician, cause, uh, I want to see what points are really sticking with people.

And, uh, I want to see if I'm making a change really. Um, the most recent one that came to mind is, uh, speaking of Dr. DMACC when your most recent, uh, interview with him, uh, talking about like the loading and your kind of pro series and everything like that. Uh, I pretty much that entire, just listening to that entire podcast was like, this is very relevant and like for the majority of patients that we're going to be dealing with and being able to manage load and like how to reincorporate it back into their daily life. Um, yeah, that's the most recent one that comes to mind. It was, yeah, it's been a little, it's been, I haven't been able to listen to many podcasts recently.

It's been hectic trying to get, well, get ready for the clinic and everything like that. Yeah. Well, good. Yeah. I think that's, uh, I'm, I'm glad you liked that. I, I really, I really hope people like the loading ones, actually the loading conversations. Um, I, I kind of think like we were, we were, me and DMACC were talking off air about, I mean, I guess we did talk about on air with it is too, is that, you know, what percentage of our profession or even PTs have, you know, adequate loading strategies, um, and just a purposeful one. And, and we don't think it's a majority and it's kind of sad because we could be that intermediate.

Um, and it's not too hard to learn. You just got to learn, you got to know where to learn it from. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, and being able to do that well is kind of a game changer for the type of care that you can give your patient. Yeah. The, I mean, we're really good at passive care, I think, but, um, passive care nurtures dependence. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We need to kind of find like the happy medium of giving them the tools that they need to succeed though, where they can do it back at home and throughout their daily life. And then when they come into clinic, giving them the bits and pieces that they can't quite do all the time on their own, where they need an external hand to just kind of nudge them in the right direction.

Mm-hmm. Um, by, by the way, for everyone listening, that pro series that he mentioned, uh, it's probably going to not be last week anymore. It's going to be like a month and a half ago. So, um, is there anything you want to ask me before we actually start to clean up here? You can take the mic. Oh, I think actually, as we kind of, as we kind of talked along, any questions that I had throughout the conversation, you kind of answered as we were going. So I don't think I really have any outstanding questions that I need to get answered right now. Okay. Uh, how can everyone reach you? I know you're mainly Instagram, right?

Yes. So I do have an Instagram page. It's at E3 mobility. Um, you can also find me on, on the internet. My website is E3 mobility.com. And yeah, if you can find me there, you can ask me any questions that you feel and I'll do what I can to push you in the right direction. Um, when, when, when people reach out to you, what, what should they, what should they start the conversation with that would really wow you like talking about tacos or I'm a, I'm a big fan of steak and dogs, not dogs, not dog steaks though. Not, not dog steak. The two, the two are very separate, but if you were to show me a picture of a nice steak that you were eating with a dog sitting at a chair across the table, we could maybe with a napkin, uh, around its neck and we could talk for hours.

Oh man. Okay. I can see a whole, like, so you should have a side Instagram feed, just dogs, dogs and steak napkins. Oh, dogs eating steak. Yeah. Well, I don't, I don't know if I could part with a steak to give to a dog. You're like, I don't, I know they would love it, but I think I would just love it more. Well, but, but the happiness of you watching the dog eat the steak might be better than taste of the steak itself. I suppose I could share. Well, right on. Thanks so much for being on. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. It was a great experience. Curtis. Thanks so much for being on.

That was great. Good to meet you finally. I know we've been, uh, texting back and forth on, on Instagram a little bit, but, um, I feel like I've known you for a long time and, and watched you move on Instagram. That's E3 mobility, but, uh, we haven't really spoken. So good to finally meet you. Now, um, everybody again, if you have not already, please subscribe to the podcast. And if you have not done this yet, please share this with another student. If you are a student, what I really want to occur from this podcast, if you kind of don't get the gist already from, uh, interviewing Curtis is that I want to change the profession.

Like I really love to, I think our profession can always strive to do better. And so I really challenge people with a little bit of thinking and, uh, different types of knowledge on this podcast. So, uh, I think if we don't continue learning, then we're, we're just, we're dead in the tracks, man. We just gotta, we just gotta keep learning. And I've learned a lot through interviewing people on this podcast. And, uh, I feel like I've really developed over the last couple of years. So if you want to follow along that journey with me, please subscribe to the podcast. There's about 150 different, different episodes prior to this one that are going to be loaded full of clinical gems as well as entertainment.

So, uh, please share this with a colleague. Uh, I do mean that, uh, I mean that you need to share it. Like I want you to share it. Like the biggest favor you can do to me as the host of this podcast who gets literally nothing paid on this podcast. It's just a passion project. Um, the best thing you can do to repay me is to share with a friend. Currently we're sitting at a stack. Didn't good about a hundred, uh, 1,500 downloads per episode. I think we can double that easily. I think by the next couple months, I don't see why we can't be doing at least 3,000, uh, listeners to per podcast. And if you do that, I'll tell you, you know what?

The cool thing is I'll be able to get even better guests because here's what happens on the side is that sometimes I've been, I've asked a couple people if they would share their knowledge on this podcast and they kind of asked, like, I understand it because they're busy people. They ask what your numbers are and so I can leverage a little bit more if you guys help me get the numbers up. So please do that for me. Lastly, if you've not already, please go to the pro Cairo, uh, online CE website. That's pro Cairo, online CE. That is where we put all the information that I spoke about with Curtis, um, or he mentioned that we have Dr. DMACC there.

We have, uh, Dr. Ben Ramos there. We have Philip Snow. We have Greg Lehman. Uh, we have, uh, coming up in, in the other modules. We actually have, uh, Michael Shacklock, uh, coming on board for neurodynamics and Guido van Reisingen. So I've interviewed, uh, all these people already. And so, uh, please go on there and, and just investigate. And quite honestly, the first 10 minutes of every module is free. We cover flexion and tolerant backs and in module two, eventually, which won't be out by the time of this podcast, uh, we're covering, covering upper quarter cervical spine types of complaints.

So if you're really not good at shoulders or necks or ridiculous symptoms or shoulder blades that we're going to cover in that, if you don't feel very confident getting people to feel really good after about a couple of days or even the first day with, um, with discogenics types of symptoms, with not being able to touch your toes, with not being able to put on their shoes, rolling out of bed, getting out of cars, like sneezing, coughing, these things are, um, very, very manageable without even really even doing too many manual therapy. Like really not much at all. Like I, I, I honestly with you, I don't really do any manual care on these, uh, on these, on these back cases.

The first probably three times I see them. And so a lot of it is just, um, movement-based corrections and loading providing a safety net. And so it provides a lot of, uh, confidence if you go through that module, please do because it is game, is a game changer if you don't feel confident in it. So check it out. That is Pro Cairo Online CE. Again, if you do go through that, I am a partner in that and I approve all of the information that is made. Now, as always, leave people better than how you found them. And if you're dating, date an Eagle Scout because they're usually kind of honest. I'll talk to you guys soon.