What a Chiropractic Student Learned From Courses, Clubs and Mentors

You know what, I think the biggest concept, I think, if I'm speaking directly to like students and everybody, I think is getting involved. I think some of the biggest, like especially the FTCA comments, are a lot of docs that, you know, express that they wish they would have gotten involved with certain clubs earlier on or got involved, you know, more frequently. I think that's really important for students and for me directly, it's helped me out tremendously. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery.

And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host for the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. By the way, if it's your first time to the podcast, the listeners now are called the Movement. Enjoy, be part of the Movement. So, if this is your first time to the podcast, just know that this is intended for clinicians and patients alike, and the idea is to create some very general conversation about complex topics that can be used as educational tools for you with your patients, Or actually to help you guys as clinicians and PTs and ATCs and CSCS, like start to learn a little bit more about the stuff that you maybe have not been exposed to yet.

Be honest with you, through this podcast experience, it's been a couple years now, I've learned a lot more than I ever thought I have, or that I would. Just by asking questions and listening generally to the responses that people have, whether I agree with them or not. It's really challenging my own biases, and I'm starting to learn more. So, I hope that you guys follow me along on this journey, and you learn more as well. Go back into the archives of the podcast, and just take a look at the titles and see who you want to listen to. There's a lot of great information back there. Today is going to be a student interview.

This is with a chiropractic student who is at SCUHS, which is basically Los Angeles College of Chiropractic. His name is Max Massoud. I'm really bad with last names, and so I might be saying names wrong. But I think his experience through this interview is going to be helpful to a lot of other students who are going through the same troubles and tribulations that he has, as well as wondering what to do next. And so, I've had the opportunity to meet Max a couple times, and so he's a very bright guy. He has been exposed to a lot of great things, and I think he's doing a very good job. And as you'll hear at the end of the interview, I think he's wiser than I ever was when I was in school.

So, I think there's a lot of great information to learn from him. Now, if this is also your first time in the podcast, just know I try to share a little bit about myself via personal story just so you guys can get to know your host. And so, we'll go into a little bit of a short story format right there, and then we're going to get right into the podcast and the interview with Max. So, recently, I was having a beer with some friends. It was Phillip, it was Ben, it was Sage, and Geronimo. We were all kind of hanging out after a workshop, and I think an interesting thing came up. And so, someone proposed the idea of, like, you know what?

We was here about all these methods and stories about success stories of, you know, when someone was able to help somebody through this problem, and they used this method, and the method worked, and then all of a sudden they felt better, right? And so, someone brought up an interesting topic. They said, how can we never see the failures? Like, and so, they gave me an idea of something that I don't think has really been done yet, but maybe some cases that we wish we could have back. And so, I asked Phillip, I said, is there a case that you really wish you could do over again, you know, over the past 20 years?

And so, we kind of sat there and thought. And so, we came up with something. I came up with something, too. Ben came up with something. We all kind of came up with something. And it was, there were just stories of how we wish we could have done better, and how we could have better served that patient. So, it makes me really think about, you know, as things go forward a little bit, it's great to see, to talk about things at work. But also, too, I think it's very humbling to remember the ones which you think you could have improved on. So, anyways, I guess the personal story today is that, self-reflecting, is that I realized I could do better, you know.

And I think everyone does make mistakes. And there's a possibility over the next year or so that there might be some episodes coming out based upon that. So, this is the time where I realized I could do better. So, let's get on to the content. You there? I am here. Can you hear me? I hear you. Is there too much of an echo? I mean, do you have a control for that? No. It's okay. We can do it. We can level it later. It's not a big deal. Okay. So, what's going on? Not much. Just getting ready, taking off to the Forward 19 Symposium coming up in a couple of weeks. And then after that, I'm actually going to the MPI one.

Oh, really? Yeah. You're well-traveled. Pretty exciting. Yeah. A little bit. So, what's the... I've never been to the MPI one. Wait. The first one was... What did you say? It was ACA? No. The Forward 19. The FTCA. Oh, the Forward one. Yeah. Forward Conference. That should be good. What do you think about... Did you go to the first one last year? You know what? I didn't go to it. Actually, I didn't even know about it then. And then it was just funny. I ran into Bobby, the Stu McGill. He has like an annual symposium or I guess a big annual conference. We do all levels. And that's where I met him and kind of got more to it.

But I always listen to his podcast. Oh, nice. Yeah. I saw that was happening. I didn't... That was in St. Louis or Brown, St. Louis or something last year. Yeah. I've never been to the other one either. I actually haven't been to the ACA one either. So, I've only been to the ACVSP one. Oh, that one? Yeah. I haven't been to one of those yet. And I really wanted to. So, I think the last one was during our break and I was somewhere. I forgot where I was at. I know it was at stake. For the last... I've been going for a little bit of time. But then the last two years, like... So, last... Sorry. This year, one of my old office staff got married on that time.

And so, the prior year, someone else was getting... Oh, no. I was out of town. And actually, so both of them, I like... Actually, when the first one, when I missed it, I was actually going to Italy. And so, I actually postponed that trip to Italy anyways. And I was waiting, I was waiting, I was waiting until they released the dates for the symposium. And so, I looked at the past history of symposiums. I'm like, when was it? Oh, it was the second week in April. And cool. All right. I'm going to do the last week of April of my trip. And then they moved it. So, I was... And that one was right... I think it was right around here.

But, yeah. I was... I feel like all the people I went to school with that I still talk to a bit, they go to that. So, it's like a reunion. So, that's why I like that one a lot. Oh, yeah. That's what I've heard. You know, I've talked to a couple of the sports diplomats. And one of them, he's in it for like 10 years. And he was like, yeah, you should just go because I get to meet up with everybody that... You know, all my past friends. Pretty much. I'm sure the information is like useful, but it's really nice to just hang out with people. So, we're already recording. I don't know if you know that.

Oh, no, I didn't. It's okay. I thought sometimes there's really good pieces in the beginning that... I'm like, damn, I should have been recording that. So, oh, there you are. There we are. I didn't know my camera was off. Video on. It's okay. So, what do you want to talk about? Is there anything pressing you would like to talk about today? Actually, tell everyone your name and who you are because I guess you're the mystery man still. Yeah. So, I'm Max Masood. I'm currently a seventh-term chiropractic student at SCU. It's kind of weird how we have it set up. So, I'm seventh term out of 12. So, I've just passed that halfway mark.

Not in clinic yet for another, you know, a few more terms. I pretty much dibble-dabbled into a lot of continuing education while I've been here. And before, I kind of started off in the fitness realm. I started off in corporate wellness. And then after that, I moved into the private fitness area where I became a program director for... It's like a small family-owned business, but they had two locations. So, it kind of actually got me exposed to the business side of things. And then I decided after I saw some DNS things, you know, how much I was limited at, you know, you can't really go hands-on at all when you're a trainer or you shouldn't be.

And then I decided to go into the chiropractic school. Yeah. It's crazy how you can't do a lot of things. Yeah. I mean, I guess you can just, like, verbally cue them. You can just really get really good at, like, yelling at them and pointing at them, right? Yeah. It depends, I guess, what own population you're dealing with. I mean, we had some high-end athletes, but most of it is just your general pot. And you definitely don't want to be yelling at a 60-year-old. Oh, dude, you totally can. You totally can. I would just, like, yell at them, push them over and stuff. If you, like, push them over, like, there's that external stimulus where they'll just have reactive posture, right?

That's what it all is now. Yeah, that's where I started. And I think throughout school, you know, I'm part of the R2P club. I was the co-president with Mary Lou and then also started up the FTCA club here on campus. And then just recently, the last couple weeks, just started the MPI club here on campus. Nice. Hey, one-second question. Do you hear the humming on my end? No, I don't. Is it my end? No, I think it's my end. Well, I turned off stuff and I didn't stop it. So, everyone, if you hear that humming, I'm going to do my best to edit that thing out. But sometimes there's a Jimmy John next door.

And so, they like to get all the deliveries in the morning. So, sometimes, like, there's, like, lift gates going up and stuff. I didn't know if it was just because I have the echo in this room, you know, all the rooms that your SEU have, like, the... No, but I do, it's throwback already because I'm looking up above you and I see all that conduit. I bet you're, are you in the room that is just on the other side of the walkway from, I think it's 0-120 or something like that? Yeah, no, I'm actually in where they have the ping pong tables. Oh. And from what I hear... Chesney, that's my favorite. Yeah, I'm over here in Chesney.

Dude, yeah, that was the place, man. Still is. Yeah. You got three tables now or two? We just have two. We had three at one point and we pushed all three together and did, like, play six, three-on-three ping pong. Did you have the full table? Um, there was the full table there, yeah, but it was not frequently used. Yeah, we mainly used ping pong. I think all those vending machines and stuff were in there. Yeah, we have, like, two vending machines in here now. Yeah. One guy actually, like, he actually tore his pants, tore his shorts playing ping pong, like, straight down the center, like, down the seam.

So, yeah, so you're, so as you start to get out of, like, so you're not, you're not really, you're not managing R2P anymore because you, do you, like, graduate out of it because you got to get to clinic or something like that? Yeah, we just transitioned this term, actually, through it. And, uh, it's going to Omer and Jared. And they're both going to take care of it, and they're, they're fantastic guys, and they have great heads, and they have good future on them. Yeah. So, when you, tell me the progression of things that you, like, that took you to get into chiro school, actually, because I'm, I know everybody has a little bit of a different journey of, like, what they, um, what they wanted to do, or if that was their passion before, or what they had a preconceived notion of what was going to happen in chiro school, and then things change a little bit, you know.

I want to hear, I want to hear the journey. You know what, actually, for me, uh, chiro school was never actually on my list. Um, you know, I've been to a chiropractor, and I injured my back around when I was 18 years old. Um, dealt with that. Um, I went to a chiropractor then, uh, got great care, but, you know, it never really dealt with my back problems, and it never really dealt with my back problems until I, I got into Stu McGill's work when I was an undergrad in kinesiology. And I started doing some of the McGill Big Three, and little behold, all my back troubles went away. Um, and so that kind of got me onto the thought, I was like, oh, okay, so maybe I actually should go more towards the fitness realm.

I never gravitated towards PT as well. I mean, I had bad experiences going to some physical therapy offices. Um, I just didn't like the whole, you know, there's 30 people in at one time, and, you know, aides going around, and that was a pretty bad misconceived, you know, idea of what I had at that time. Um, but as I was going through that, um, I was going through the fitness realm, and I went to a lot of continuing education things, you know, I went to, like, MRC when I was in that area. Um, I went to some DNS courses. I had a lot of other ones, uh, Strong First, and I started seeing a lot of chiros.

Well, not a lot. I saw a few chiros at some of them, and I was like, okay, so what do you guys do? And I never really had a good chiro to refer to until I was at certain places, and I found them, because they're kind of like hidden gems sometimes, um, that utilize some of those techniques, right? Um, so once I got a scene, get more exposed towards that, instead of your, not traditional, but, you know, what you see a lot of advertisement, like $30 in, you come in, adjust it, and leave. But now I got to see, oh, okay, now they're dealing with movement. They're looking at your movement patterns. They're, they're diagnosing you.

And I had no idea that, that they have this underneath of their scope. And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And that's what really gravitated me towards actually going to the chiropractic school. And I, it was almost like a shirt shot. I was like, this is exactly what I want to do. And that's, that's interesting that you actually came from, like, uh, when you were in the fitness side, originally you, you had, you actually experienced the, the stereotype that probably the public does about this profession. Oh, I didn't know they could diagnose, you know? Yeah, it was pretty interesting because, I mean, I was, I was, you know, anytime you have somebody coming into your, your gym, you have to do the right thing as well.

And you need to refer them out to the right people. And, you know, sometimes, especially here in LA, it can be very difficult to find who you need to refer to. Um, we eventually, you know, found the right people, but, you know, there was a lot of things that were, I just questioned a lot, um, from chiros amputees, both, both have the same pretty much outcomes. Um, and then, so once I found a certain Cairo over in Valley Village area, I was, it blew my mind. And I was like, well, you know, everybody should be kind of like this. Like, everybody should be getting some, some great care. Everybody should be getting some type of diagnosis and getting great treatment, not the cookie cutter approach.

Was that Yoav? Yeah. Just checking. Um, I don't know too many people in Valley Village. That was about it. Yeah, um, yeah, it's, it's funny. Like, well, I've, I was, I was talking to someone actually the other day about, um, so there's, um, Allie, she, she trains people in here and she mainly trains dancers. And so she needs, she knows me and she knows, uh, do you know Courtney, Courtney Wilson? Have you met Courtney? Courtney Wilson? No, I haven't. She used to intern, uh, she was an associate over at, uh, D-Max and Harrington's for, I think, about a year or so before they left. And then now she works over in like, uh, I want to say like Carson or out that way.

And so, um, she danced as, you know, she danced. Um, and so her and Allie get along really well because they're, they're managing these dancers and Courtney did a good job of finding a pars, uh, pars fracture on a girl. And so there's like really good care, right? She's been through neurodynamics. Like she's, she's done DNS, she's done, she's done a bunch of stuff. And so Allie has some of these dancers where they come in to her for training and, and she's, uh, she's like, what's going on? And they're like, Hey, I have this knee problem. And you're like, and she's like, Oh, well, so did you go see Dr. Wilson?

They're like, no, no, no. I just, I saw a specialist. And it's like, I needed to get a, I needed to get a right diagnosis. And nothing against like your orthopedics and you're in your quote unquote specialist, but like, it was like, so what are they going to do with you? They're like, Oh, they just told me what it was. And then that's it. It's like, that's great. Like you, now you know what it is. Let's say if it's right or right or wrong, but do you even know what to do with it? Like some of these people that, the quote unquote diagnosticians, like they're not really in the trenches. Like they don't know how to reduce the problem.

There's a difference between the diagnosis and how to reduce it. Um, and I found it actually surprising during that interaction with figuring that out that Courtney's good. What's, what's, what communication needs to happen to get that person to the right person, you know? And yeah, I think that's a big, that's a, that's actually a really big problem. Um, I think it was my second term here. Um, I got asked to go speak to a kinesiology class at Los Angeles city college. And it was funny, the, the, the professor asked me, he was like, so where do we find somebody that doesn't do, you know, your traditional, you know, you just go in and go get adjusted and leave.

Cause I kind of exposed, I was like, you know, there's, there's people that do all kinds of things. And it kind of leaves it as a, as a void that we have going on. Um, it's hard to refer to the right person. It's hard to have a network sometimes, uh, with who's in that area. And if you do have the social network, like if you have the R2P, uh, map or the network and you're referring, or if you have the FTCA one, um, or you can use, you know, whatever cert that you're using at that time or not cert, but seminar. Um, but for the general public, it's, it's hard for them to find the right person to go to.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's, um, and I wonder if it's just that there's too much information or if like, they're not like, I know, I know. And say in this case, like Allie did tell her go there and they don't, you know, so I, there might be also a way you say it. Like, does she have enough authority as a trainer to really get the, like her passion and point across that this is the right person she believes, um, you know, or are people just going to do what they want to do? And, you know, they'll always like more information in the, in the, the sparkly gems type of thing, you know? I don't know. Yeah.

You know, I ran into that problem too. I had somebody else trying to refer to Justin Dean because the guy lived right by him and I don't think he'd still want to go see him. And that's, it's the hard thing is just getting them to go and see the value. Like, Hey, you need to go see the clinician to go handle your problems. Right. Do they, does that person want to come in and see you? I'm just curious. Uh, they tried well, cause I'm there inconsistently now. I'm only there like on some type of weekends, but you know, because I do a lot of them. Mobility things. And I was like, Oh, I want to do this.

It feels great. It does this. So, I mean, sometimes, yeah, but I think it's kind of unethical to give them the thought that they should come see me, especially right now. Um, they need to see a clinician. Well, I'm just curious. I'm curious if they want to see you because they, they know you and trust you kind of thing versus like the unknown Justin type of thing, you know? Um, but I, but I, but I know like that the, you haven't really gone through the clinic. So it's, you can't really do it. And, uh, the unethical part kind of, but, uh, but I, I'm just wondering, like, I guess I'm, I guess I'm leading this conversation today.

I'll let you lead it pretty soon. I'm just, I'm, I think it just came up recently where it's just like, how do you get people to the right shit or what you think is the right shit? Or at least what you think is going to be right at that time, but it's just challenging. So that's a whole nother business thing. I'm sure that you've already run into. Sometimes. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, that is a big problem. Some of the other things, um, I kind of wanted to go into, I guess from a student perspective is, is dabbling into continuing education to supplement your education. Okay. That's a big, that's a big one.

What do you think? Uh, what do you, do you think it's good to go to CEs as a under clinical term or do you think it's only useful during clinical term or is there a right time to mess with it? You know, I think sometimes it depends. So I think it depends on the person's background experience. And then I think it also depends on how well they can handle their, their course load and able to bridge the gaps of what they're learning with the contingent. Cause some of them will go over some people's heads, um, which is perfectly fine. You know, it's in, in our program, you're given so many units and it's kind of like, uh, one of our professors is like drinking water out of a fire hose, um, which is totally fine.

But I think it's totally valuable. I haven't had one experience yet where I went to a seminar and it hasn't added to my, my value of my education. It's only added it on top. So do you think that taking them, let's just say if you took everything in term one, do you think it would mean something different in term eight? Yeah. Like if you took everything all in one whack, uh, yeah, that's a big fire hose. Yeah. There's no digestion going on right there, but I think you can sprinkle in at least one or two per term, um, and making sure that you're staying on top of it. Because I mean, in our, in our realm as well, it seems like everything evolutionizes, um, you know, there's certain things that, you know, when we're going through our program, I haven't noticed yet that we've really even dibble-dabbled into, uh, you know, the BPS model.

When we're going through some of these diagnosing courses, um, we're not taking into account the person's personal pain experience. And then also we're kind of staying a little bit more general. So we're not even going into more of like if you take the McGill approach and becoming really specific with your diagnosis and staying agnostic throughout the entire process. So what do you think then as at this point, since you've been through a handful of them, what do you think are ones that you, I don't want to say not want to take again, but like maybe we stick to the ones you think are the most critical.

The most critical. So, so far, um, I kind of categorize and I guess into what you kind of need. So like if you need a motor development on, uh, I think DNS is a great one. FRC can do that as well. Uh, soft tissue. I love Stecos, um, his, or even the FR, the functional range release course, great course to take. Um, and then if you need something, uh, joint manipulation, um, probably take an MPI one. My first official MPI one will be coming up, but, um, you know, just looking at the content, even online, I absolutely love it. And then we've also had Len Faye come over here and it's just been a game changer how to apply it in an evidence way.

Um, I'm trying to think of any other categories in this. Let's see. Uh, let's see. You covered, let's, let's do this one more time. So you, so you said, uh, you said, uh, developmental, you said, um, you say segmental, but go ahead, go ahead. You say him. Oh yeah. So, yeah. So developmental, I think DNS is fantastic because, uh, I really like the approach how they, they integrate joint centration and applying it with intra-abdominal pressure and how that can apply to, it's just the principles applying to what you're doing with your movement. Um, so I, I really like how they, they do that. Yes.

They show you the developmental kinesiology positions, but it honestly applies to whatever you're doing. So if somebody is over there doing whatever their workout, you can prop, you can maximize what they're doing in the gym. If they see you, uh, applying those principles. Um, the other part of it that I like going through that course is, and it kind of reminded me of your course as well, because your course was actually really, really amazing as well. You kind of combined a lot of things into one was the butchersing effect. So along with the DNS courses, they don't say butchersing, but, um, you know, essentially that's kind of what you're doing when you're loading certain positions.

So I know we went into the oblique sit during yours and, you know, DNS kind of things for the oblique sit. That's the only, that's the only thing you got to take away, I think. Really? Yeah. That's the only thing. I'm just joking. You know, it's what I like. I like the, uh, uh, the oblique sit was good. And I also like, uh, the low bear. Low bear is really great. Um, uh, there's a few of them. I think it just kind of depends what's going on with the person, but. Right. They're good. They're good tools, I think, to implement in. Yeah, exactly. Um, but I think it's good to expose yourself to just different concepts and different things at all times and not get so stuck in one way.

Like, you know, some people will get into certain camps. They're like, oh, I'm in the DNS only camp. Oh, I'm only in this camp. I'm the only soft tissue. I only believe in manipulation. I only do this. And I think it's better to expose yourself to everything. So that way you can pull from all those sources, um, to have an idea of what you're going to do. Yeah, I agree. It's, um, it's, it's, it's really easy to get stuck, stuck in one camp, I think, you know? And, uh, funny when I was going through school, like people kind of just like joke and like they'd say, are you, or you basically, you're like PT, right?

You don't, you don't like adjust. It's like, I'm like, yeah, I had a strong bias against really not leaning on the adjustment, but, um, even now I wish I could adjust better. You know, it's not like, it's a skillset I can still probably improve on cause I don't spend a lot, a lot of time there, but I certainly do. You know, when there's a usefulness to, to everything at some point in time for someone's problem. But like, um, I think when you do get married into one of those camps, and I remember I was talking to a, I was talking to a guy this weekend at, um, at Dan Jones when I went and, uh, maybe this is my assumption, but like when the terminology he was using to describe what was happening, I'm like, hmm, you're in the camp, you know?

And so I'm like, let, I'm like, let me give you a word of advice, you know? And just like, I'm like, that is a little part. Like you start stripping that thing down a little bit and we're going to see commonalities between the different things, but you know, start moving them to something else. Like, like your corrective exercise and in my opinion, your DNS is and so on. Like they're really good in the workshop. I said block two, which is your corrective or butt you're seeing. It's, it's an effort to get them to real resistance training or standing foot on ground, like application of ADLs with some type of load and just getting strong.

I guess you can even push them into a strong first approach, you know? Um, but I, I tend to think when we, when we go into these corrective modalities, like you're, I've been to FRC, but I'll correct me if I'm wrong, but like your FRC, it's like explore this range. Like this range is helpful. It's like, how much is, how much is helpful to get the person back to what their goal was and don't sit in that camp forever, you know? Yeah. Uh, you see that kind of a lot. And I think it's easy to, to adopt a, to one camp because, you know, you like their ideology and probably resonated well with you and you kind of, you might start saying, well, you know, why am I going to listen to anything else?

This person says this, this person's giving you the answers, but I think it's, it's important to stay agnostic through the whole thing and kind of take it outside perspective at all times because, you know, literature changes, a lot of things that they change. And if you stay in that one camp, you're going to be stuck with it. And that almost reminds me of like staying in the old school, done out of place model where, you know, you know, they stayed within theirs. That's what resonated with them. Uh, of course there's a lot of other things going on with that, but, um, you know, they, they say that that's what made them comfortable.

And I think it's, it's good to get uncomfortable. It's good to learn things that you have no idea about. And I try to expose myself to just different things all the time. Like for me, I know marketing was horrific. Like, that was probably the thing I was the most scared of, to be honest, even coming into chiro school. I think I talked to a few, a few docs, even one of them that is no longer practicing. And they're like, well, this is something you have to understand. You can probably become a business owner. Yeah. Um, so I've been kind of going down that little rabbit hole too. And it's been a whole new world.

Yeah, that is, that is probably the hardest part, dare to say, like it's all the other like clinical parts, like fun and interesting to us. And, you know, like it's the troubleshooting, but then I think if we look at marketing and business and trying to get someone in to help them is like a whole nother puzzle that you're troubleshooting, which is not as fun, but if you look at it as fun, it's just, just frustrating. Like we were talking about earlier, you know, it's like, like, I don't know if you can feel like just frustration in my voice about, dude, come on, just go, just go, just go where I told you to go.

Damn it. Why do I got to argue about this? Uh, yeah, so I guess, I guess you could say business might sound like it might be a troubled person, you know, difficult person to only, um, but you know, it's, it's been so cool. We, we got lucky because here we had a, uh, you know, we have selectives, which we guess are extra courses that we did on top of our course load. Um, and one of the guys, he's just a marketer. He's not a clinician at all. Um, but he helps a lot of chiropractors. So it was kind of cool seeing his perspective on even how to do competitive analysis. He had us, uh, on like, I think it's like 20 or 30 businesses.

Uh, and then you do like five that are your ID awards. Oh yeah. Which goes yours. Oh yeah. You did tell me about that. You said you, yeah, you put my website in your competitive analysis or something. Yeah. So it's kind of hard to do it because you don't go inside of it. It's not like you're going rogue. You just kind of look at their websites. Uh, you look at Yelp, uh, or Google, you look at what photos that they put out there. You see, you go on their Facebook, you see if they retarget you at all. Uh, so you kind of see like how strong their, their marketing influences on you. And then you also see like what type of visual that they give off like.

So yours was like considered like the hardest competition it would be be with. I think I looked at a couple other ones as well, but then there were some that just give a full, you, it gives you, it gives you exposure into seeing like where other businesses, they're saying they're one thing, but they're putting out a whole different image. And to me that, that brought in a lot of value because it gives me an idea of like, okay, if I want to say I'm in sports medicine or if I want to be in movement and things like that, I need to actually give off that type of look, not only on my website, but also the pictures that get produced out as well.

Um, it's like, I think one concept that he brought out was like, you know, a lot of times when you're in sports medicine or, you know, that chiropractic, um, that it's often you want to wear a polo. You don't want to look like you're a lawyer. And it was funny because when we looked at the PI ones, they kind of look like lawyers, like the suit, the blazer. And it was pretty interesting seeing that. And I was like, yeah, it's kind of weird. Who, um, I won't have you mentioned them, but like, was there, was there one that was like, you thought, dude, this guy's, this is totally going to improve.

Like there's mix and match everywhere. Um, what did you notice on maybe those ones that didn't add up? Oh, there, there was one that was absolutely horrific. So I kind of chose the location and it's, you know, over by where I work at. And, um, one guy's, I mean, it looked really bad. It almost looked like he had an indoor scene again. That's how bad it was. Wait, wait, wait, what do you have you cut out there? Oh, sorry. It looked kind of like a, it looked like an indoor scene again. Like it was horrific the way it was set up. I was like, what is going on here? And like, this wouldn't even be like, uh, a developing country hospital, bad hospital.

It was pretty bad. Man. Yeah. So when we, when we talked in person, you, you did mention about something about addition of new pictures. I was kind of curious about that because I, I mean, I'm sure new pictures go up online, but I don't, when you, when you say the new pictures, did you, do you noticing it because you think it's a relevant thing that's helpful or do you just, you're like, oh yeah, I saw one month and then another month there's different pictures. What's the purpose of new pictures? I'm trying to remember, but I think it was like when I, when I originally did the analysis, the competitive analysis, I think it showed your office in a different look.

So it showed it, it looked different from what it looks like right now. On like Yelp you're talking about or on the website? Yeah, exactly. I think it was on Yelp, not on the website. Um, I think it showed, did you have like a, was a, did you update your office at all? Oh God. So one is black floor. One's like laminate. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. I think that's what it was. Um, so yeah, I guess those wouldn't be me actively trying to changing thing or like change pictures necessarily. It was, uh, my office got, uh, demolished and moved. And so the actual, the floor plan, the physical office changed.

And so some of it changed too. So it wasn't, uh, there was nothing creative on my part there. Just, I realized that if you, if you guys are doing movement, by the way, it's like don't put flooring on your floor or on the ground that's slippery, like laminate, you know, like wood, don't do that. Like put rubber or carpet. That was a big mistake. So, um, go ahead. Oh, um, and then, um, kind of like stemming on to, you know, just exposing yourself to uncomfortable situations or just new experiences. Um, I don't mean that necessarily as like, Oh, just go learn everything. I mean, you know, we have a lot of, um, controversial aspects to our profession and I don't mean it in that aspect of like, you know, go believe, you know, whoever's preaching as a guru.

What I mean is like, you know, keep an evidence mind, which are, what you're going to and, and exposing yourself to those different facets. Um, so I, I've really liked the, the, the different seminars. I haven't taken a Phil Snell course yet though. Oh man. I'm excited that we're bringing it out. Um, and I've heard fantastic things. I'm, I'm actually kind of bummed that I didn't take it as like one of my first courses. Um, it's, it's very, it's very helpful. Let me do a shout out for that actually, because it'll save me a lot of texting work. Um, cause cause I, the other day, like I didn't see him and I said, did you put a link up on your side or he's like, yeah, it's already up there.

And I said, okay. So, cause at that workshop we did like, there was enough, there was enough people that really needed to see that information. And so, um, but recently at, for SCU, it's going to be at SCU in January, right? So, so for all the people in Southern California who listened to this podcast, like probably one of the most useful courses that I've taken and Jeremy Dinkins, who's been on the podcast, we'll say it. Kyle Hemsley's been on the podcast, probably not yet, but he's another, he's an intern here. He took it. People who take it say it's literally one of the best classes they've ever taken.

And so, um, for your, uh, for your low backs that you see in, in that you're going to see cause you're, you're Cairo or PT. If you go to this, it will cover everything you need except for into actual loading. And so that was actually the purpose of the workshop that we did here. I wanted to get into loading, but because there was so many lagging parts, I needed to spend time there. And so I told Philip, I'm like, you know what'd be really great is if you taught something like that, like he's already teaching. And then I, I picked them up on the other end or DMACC picked them up the other end because there's no time for it in the other part.

So if you guys go learn that you'll surprisingly do less tissue work than you ever thought possible for low backs, people will get better quicker than you ever thought possible. And there's a lot of evidence to support it. So Philip's course is really good. I'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah. The, yeah, that one, I think we're doing at the end of January. Mary Lou's kind of, uh, taking that over and she's doing the whole thing for it. Yeah, that's game changing. By the way, I get, I get no money for rec, for recommending, by the way, I just want everyone to know that it's just a strong suggestion.

I get nothing for it either. Um, but yeah, that one, I wish from what I've heard from everybody is like, that's the one that you should take first. I think, um, an assessment course as well. Um, I was listening to one of the student success ones and she was saying she would have, she wish she would have taken an assessment course first. And I think, well, I've taken FMS, but I think going beyond that, taking a course first to what it helped out a lot of understanding. Cause you know, we go over a lot of rehab principles, especially in RTP, we go over a lot of different concepts through it, but we never, we don't break down too much of assessing them first and then doing full on breakouts with them.

We do a little bit of it, but in 50 minutes and trying to explain it to everybody, it gets kind of condensed too much. So you, we don't spend too much time on the assessment portion, which I wish I probably would have taken first. I've taken the SFMA pre-rec course. And, um, so I'm wishing that one first before taking some of the rehab style, because then it helps you categorize it up a little bit more, which I'm realizing through the SFMA pre-rec course. Yeah. I would agree. It's, it's, yeah, you got to figure out what you're applying your correction for before you, you got to figure it out first.

Yeah. Have you, so you haven't been doing FMS yet or have you? No, I have. I've done FMS. That one, it's good. I like it as a basic tool. Um, it just gives you a general idea. And then from there you can go in a little bit more if you want to see if they have mobility deficits or, you know, anything else. Um, but I like it just from a general standpoint. Have you, have you heard the Dan John pillow question? Oh yeah. Where you ask how many pillows that they sleep with. Yeah. That was the, the, the, the very basic mobility, mobility assessment. I love that one. When he, uh, he was talking about, you know, the more pillows that they sleep, the more problems that they probably have.

Um, and I love that concept. I also loved his concept to, uh, his get body up, uh, concept, you know, how well do they get down onto the ground and back up? Uh, and I think I saw some little snapshots of you guys kind of doing that through the workshop too, right? There was, there was a little, there was a small assessment part where it was just like, yeah, how many, basically your contact points. But then there was the get back up game. So that one is, it was pretty comical. Yeah. Go ahead and try to touch the ground. Go into a plank position while touching both knees. So how fast they do it.

Oh, oh yeah. Actually there was, I haven't seen this version yet, but, um, he, uh, he, there was four people and they had, they made them, he made them hold hands and then interlock crosshands and said, go, go back down and do a plank position, but you can't move. You can't lose hands or else a puppy dies. And so like they were all twisted about and stuff like they look like they were skydiving. So that was a good one, but they figured it out. Um, so then what do you, what do you think you're going to actually, what do you want to learn next? Because you've already learned a lot of stuff. What do you think you should learn next?

Well, the one that I'm excited for is, uh, Shacklock's Narodynamics. So I'm taking that one coming up in November. Oh, and Arizona one, is that where it is? Yeah. So I'll be taking that one. Um, and I, I'm really excited because I've been reading his textbook just a little bit, um, of trying to understand the concepts, but it's a lot going into that textbook, reading it. It is. It's really, it's really heavy. Yeah. And I've, I've had it done on me with, with Justin Dean. He's done some Narodynamic stuff when I went to go get treated by him and it, and it cleared up, centralized a lot of my stuff.

And I was, I've seen a lot through it, through McGill's work as well, where he uses it as, you know, through the assessment process and he's explaining how it could potentially get rid of what's a positive too. So being careful with that. Um, so with his work, I'm, I'm really excited. Because we bail, the only thing we go into it in school is tensioners and sliders. Right. Do you guys don't go into openers then as treatment? No, I don't think so. As I was talking to people about how they use some of Shacklock's work, it's like, what do you use like dominantly? And I'd say most people said most, like probably 75% of the time they're using openers.

Um, they're in the, like, we'll sparingly go into sliders and then rarely do you hit tensioners. Um, cause tensioners are like, for especially people who have, who are acute or subacute or having a real problem, like it'll, it's kind of provocative and it might just light them up and you won't get the patience back after that. But, um, but his openers are pretty darn money. Um, and the, the reasoning behind him is pretty money too. Yeah. So, uh, with his, um, I'm hoping, cause we have like three of us that are going to, so I'm hoping we can bring it back here just a little bit so that we can do, uh, you know, just March B meetings and things like that.

Cause I think a lot of that too is going to take some practice too. Oh, that's a good idea. So three, you're going to make sure that you gather enough information to bring back and test on each other. Well, we'll be kind of go through it because I think, because there's so many different steps to it and making sure that we have it down. Cause especially since we're not in clinic yet too, um, we want to make sure when we get to those steps and we're able to start using it, that we're pretty efficient with it, or at least that we're not, you know, juggling around all the time while we're using it.

So I'm hoping by the time we get there, we even have a little bit of practice time using it. Now let's take a real quick break for the sponsor. The sponsor for the show is Pro Chiro Online CE. It is a online chiropractic CE platform developed by myself, Philip Snell and Ben Ramos, all the people you already trust and like that intended to attack the problem of going online and having really subpar learning experiences just cause you got to get your continued education hours. If you've been a chiropractor for a while, you're going to know that not all the, not all the workshops you go to offer, uh, CE hours.

And so what we've attempted to do is continue your learning process, continue to give clinical pearls by curating amazing content, amazing presenters on certain topics on an online platform, because that has not been done before. So please go through and check it out. 10 minutes of every, every module is free already. And if you don't like what you see, you just stop. So if your birthday is coming or it's coming in the next couple of months, check it out. You're going to love this stuff. I promise it will change the way you practice. Now back to the show. That's a good idea. So when you go, just notice how slow he is on stuff because, um, just my observation of people like first time kind of messing with that stuff is that they like, it's kind of like when you go through like board, just like, okay, so I'm going to go here and there and I'm going to do this.

Right. And so there's really no thought of like, this person actually that I'm doing this on has a problem. And so the tension ramps up kind of exponentially. And so you got to go real slow and just kind of look at them in the face. Because if you start like, there's a couple of us after going through like part two, because we're testing on each other, like you feel just like lit up, you know, and there's nothing wrong with you. So, um, just go slow and feel it out and see if you can really tease out the beginning part of when the symptoms occur. Yeah. I know I got, when we did some of the low back one, uh, we did this SLR variation at the McGill, uh, McGill seminar.

Uh, and I was going through actually extension to the neck while I was doing it. And that's what lit me up. Oh, really? Yeah. So it was kind of interesting. Yeah. You're no hope for you. He's like, this is a downward hooking. Um, so yeah, that one's exciting. And then I also like some of the conferences going to, um, those are pretty fun to go to because you get exposed to a variety of different schools of thought. So I know there's one coming up, but I don't think I'm going to be able to go to it because, you know, we have a selective on that weekend, um, where it's going to have a lot of speakers together.

So they're going to have a big rehab Congress. I think it's going to have like Popple, Carlos Deco, uh, uh, Paul Hodges. Um, so that one. I saw that. What was that for? What's that one? That one's the rehab 2k19 Congress. Uh, and they're bringing a bunch of different schools of thought together in the rehab realm. And then they're just discussing where it's going. They have, uh, some workshops beforehand as well, where you can, you know, choose one speaker and do their workshop alone. Um, but it's just so close, you know, LA, we, we hardly get some workshops or seminars in itself. Yeah. Isn't that funny?

Like, I think, um, I think I heard, I heard Ben and Yoav were talking about it's, LA is a really challenging market. They're said to get people to attend. And I don't know why, like there's enough of us here in the schools right there. And it's like, it should be much easier. Um, cause when Phillip had that course in Portland, just by a Western States, he had like 80 people, you know? And so it's, it's really challenging to, for some reason, I guess down here to, maybe it's just, they were marketing to the wrong people, but apparently it was hard to get people to come to those things. I think it is.

It's hard to get, uh, some of the student population here to go to certain seminars as well. Um, when we wrap it up, um, I've noticed traditionally, we have a small collection of us that'll go to them, but getting like, when you think about like 80 students to go, we haven't had that type of, uh, uh, type of going to any type of seminars yet. Yeah. I remember when I was going through school, like I did, I did spend money on seminars. It was mainly, uh, uh, it was the remainder of the ART ones, which were like, I think student rate was like 1300 or something like that. And, um, I, I think I took a, I don't remember when I took, um, TPI or I guess SFMA and things of that nature, but there, uh, I think, I think if, let's just say with, I don't want to keep harping on say Phillips, but like, there's some great ones that have, um, I think if I were to guess what shack locks for a student, what is it for like lower, lower extremity, like $400 or something like that.

Um, I want to say for, for shack locks, I think it's almost, I think it's like a 675. Yeah. For like the two day version or for the, yeah, the two day version. So like, I'm not, I'm not saying like, don't take these other ones that are more expensive necessarily. Cause it's not like, I'm not saying they're not useful, but like, I think there's a really good marketing in some of these ones where it's like, you're willing to pay more. If you notice that like what the takeaway is, they're, they're like their tools. They're not necessarily central applications like shack locks. It's just like a central application.

Um, and they're actually cheaper, you know? So make sure, I guess everybody, I know that it's, it's hard being a student, but you know, like figure out what you want to spend your money on. Yeah. I think it's more so of like an investment. Um, you know, these are things that you're going to be using directly when you get into clinic and when you get out there into the real world. And right now too, I think it's unique for us because when most seminars, you get a student price, you get a heavily discounted course price. And then two, at least at our school, I don't know how it is at any other schools, but we also get percentage back.

So we got 30% back as well. 30% back. Oh, the school gets it. Yeah. So they'll give you a reimbursement for 30% as long as they approve it. Um, which hasn't been a problem yet. Cause the school like subsidize it kind of, or, uh, you know, I don't know. They, they just do it as like an incentive. Um, so as long as you participate in, you know, a couple of school activities, they'll give you 30% back to go to a seminar of your choice. Oh, I had no idea. What the hell? That's, you really came up. We didn't get in it. Damn you guys. Yeah. So it's, it's really nice. I mean, it, it comes back, especially some of them are pretty dicey and that includes like if you, if you have to leave, like when I went to the McGill, uh, in Vancouver, you know, I had my flight, my hotel, all of that.

And it includes all of that as well. So, I mean, I'm taking advantage of that. You know, when you have something that's a thousand bucks, you get 300 back. It's like, why not? You're basically learning like small business, like, uh, tax bookkeeping. That's their way of teaching the business aspect over there. You should be careful so I'm going to get taxed. You're like, yeah. And you go out to like the bar, have a drink and a burger. You're like, yeah, this is tax deductible. The school's paying to pay 30%. I don't think they do any of the food though. Oh, really? Yeah. They just do pretty much the seminar, the seminar costs, your flight and hotel.

And then they'll keep it at that. That's still pretty good though. Um, so, uh, as we, we've been 45 minutes now or so, um, what do you think? Is there a central concept that you think that we should address today where I don't want you to come off the, off the call and be like, damn, I should have talked about that. Um, you know what, I think the biggest concept, I think if I'm speaking directly to like students and everybody, I think is, is getting involved. Um, I think some of the biggest, like, especially again, the FTCA comments are a lot of docs that, you know, express that they wish they would have gotten involved with certain clubs earlier on or got involved, you know, more frequently.

I think that's really important for students. And for me directly, it's, it's helped me out tremendously. One, uh, because it's gotten me exposure to different schools of thought to, it gives you pretty much like a streamlined access to different doctors, different experts. Um, you know, a lot of these people are open-minded and will help you out anytime. I know I've messaged you plenty of times and you've messaged directly back. I've messaged, uh, like Stu McGill. He, he messages back pretty quickly. Anybody, I haven't noticed any, anybody else without, if I didn't put myself out there, um, I don't think I would have reached out to any doctors.

I probably would have been in my own little silo and I probably would have just been going to school, um, you know, worried about, you know, the next test, which I mean, I still do. Um, but it's just, you know, that would have been my only concept and I probably wouldn't have exposed myself to just the different, uh, schools of thought and to enhance my education here. Um, yeah, I think they're all good points. Um, probably too, you're going to have some really good friends and, and colleagues after, after you get out of school and then to, to practice with, uh, and to balance your business problems around with.

Which I'm anticipating a lot of. Yeah. And there's a little bit of growing pains. I still have those growing pains a little bit, you know, it's, uh, I have these like realizations at some point. I'm like, damn, why didn't I do that a long time ago? You know, so I don't know. Um, cool. So then, uh, let me ask you these cause I, uh, as I, as I mentioned, um, I want to interview students cause I want to figure out like, as I've come to find students who are actually a lot of my main listenership. And so, um, I want to hear what, how you think I can improve the show over the next hundred shows. Um, what, what, what specific topic would you like to hear about?

Ooh, specific topic. Now that is a good one. Um, so I, I've loved your podcast because how it ranges a lot. I love how you'll have podcasts where you're talking about certain conditions or patients, um, that you focus on directly. And that's kind of like a podcast towards you. And then on the other hand, you'll have like an expert. I just listened to the one. He's released it this morning with, uh, Donald Murphy. Oh God, that's come up today. I guess so. Yeah. It's funny. I listened to it this morning. Wednesday's my day off. So it's like, I, I forget that it happens. He's the wealth of knowledge.

Yeah. That was a fantastic podcast. And I love like how you have the, you know, it's just, there's so much variation and it's not just one, one track. So you get so much exposure, like you've got Greg Lehman and you've had the concussion management. Um, so I, I really love how there's a lot of variation. If there was anything I would say, you know, and I, I also like how you, it makes you feel welcomed, like listening into your podcast as well. It's almost like just a general conversation. Like it's just, it's so smooth. Um, but I think to improve it, I'd probably go with say maybe play devil's advocate sometimes.

Oh, you offend somebody. But that's not offend somebody, but, but, uh, yeah. Maybe play devil's advocate a little bit sometimes with certain speakers. All right. I'll give that a try. I think that's all good feedback. It's, I, no, sorry. Go ahead. It's funny on some, like there's some people I have not agreed with a hundred percent. But then I take the, I've been taking the approach of like, I asked them to be on here to learn from them and, um, I want to give them an opportunity to say their piece and I don't want to pigeonhole them, you know, like, but, um, I think I, I think, I think way back on like number 67, I did for, I just, I feel a little uncomfortable playing devil's advocate sometimes just unless I actually say ahead of time, like, Hey, this is not my question, but some people may think this, you know, so they have a chance to kind of address their critics if they have any, but, um, I'll try to work on that a little bit more over the next few then.

I also don't want to get you in trouble. I don't think I've offended any of them, any of them yet, but, um, yeah, there was, that's at least on air, but, but yeah, thanks for all the feedback. That's, it's helpful. Um, is there, is there anything in particular of one episode where you thought, Hey, this really, this made me think about X, Y, and Z, or it really made me dive into this, um, treatment method or this way of thinking? Cause I guess when I ask this question, I always, I tend to get a little uncomfortable cause I don't like saying, Hey, how did my shit help you? But I kind of want to know what is, what material is helping people and guiding them into hopefully a better style of practice or at least getting them to the point where I wish I was not right out of school, but like, you know, where I am now.

And so, um, um, some of those pieces of information I'm hopefully are, hopefully are guiding you that way, but was there anything in particular or is there nothing that stands out? You know what? Uh, I think the biggest one was probably Shaq box podcast. Um, I really love the way that you guys interacted on that. And it got me to think of, cause you know, it's hard for us. It's sometimes, or hard for me to conceptualize sometimes like, you know, are we dealing with a nerve issue? Are we dealing with something that's muscular issue or, um, is it something else that's going on? And I love the way that he, he put it and was just describing as like, you know, neurodynamics is going to help you understand when you're diagnosed and the patient with you, if they have a muscular or a nerve issue and you can come down to that.

So for me, I was like, Oh, aha, neurodynamics does this because, you know, sometimes you can stretch some of those hamstrings. You're like, Oh, they got tight hamstrings. You don't know if it's tight hamstrings or if it's just because you're placing tension onto the nerve. And sometimes those feelings come out the same. Uh, and what we're kind of taught through here, you know, the traditional, they have radiculopathy. Oh, it shoots down to the leg, you know, it starts with a dermatoma or it starts with a radicular pattern and, you know, it's, it's left into a textbook concept. So I liked how he explained, you know, when you can kind of relax certain positions, like the proximal or the distal, uh, or the, you know, something that's close to the body or something that's further away from the body, uh, positions, you can kind of differentiate if it is muscular or if it's nerve.

Good. Yeah, that was actually, I listened to that one probably three times and I got some text messages from some buddies and they're like, they sent me that mind blown emoji. Um, yeah, I, I listened to that one. I want to say I listened to that two to three times, uh, just cause there were so many golden tidbits on that one. And I was like, this, this is just one of those pockets. It was a golden podcast. Yeah. That one, I think, um, if you have, if someone's not, I've not heard it before. There's actually an important concept in there that I use a bit and there's a, it's on the idea of, let's just say six scapula.

Cause we have the scapular dyskinesis whole thing that I think Horgan covers it a bit over there, you know, and I remember thinking in Horgan's class, I'm like, man, there's a, there's a lot of six cap, like there's, it was kind of like a thing that was a central concept that he must think this is important cause he's covered it a bit. And so, um, in, in Shacklock's work, there is, and he'll probably correct me if I'm wrong with, if I have it backwards, but there's model A, model B. Do you remember that part? Um, uh, kind of. Model A was, um, again, this might be model B, but one situation is what's good for the nerve is good for the musculoskeletal system.

In this, in this case, if there was nerve tension in the shoulder and shoulder depression was helpful to it for helpful for the nerve, it would also, um, that's also the, I guess, quote unquote, better position to rehab the shoulder blade and for the six scapula. However, if the scapula keeps popping up and protracting forward, that is, it might be nerve pressure or sorry, nerve tension, which is trying to unload itself via, um, via a disadvantaged position for the shoulder. And so in that case, it's kind of like you address the nerve and then address the shoulder popping up or becoming dyskinesis, um, vice versa.

Other ones are like, it's what's helpful for the nerve is helpful for the, the joint or muscle or so on. And they're not always the same. And so that one is like, it was surprising to me. I'm like, damn, like there's, maybe this is a reason why some of these people's problems just keep coming back. Cause I haven't addressed that underlying nerve tension, but model A, model B. Now I remember that part when he was talking about that one, um, yeah, I think that one. And then the other one that I really enjoyed too, was the concussion management one too, because I didn't have a lot of experience with, you know, how we deal with concussions, you know, from the traditional, Oh, you know, rest, you know, stay in dark places.

Don't do anything. Um, where he kind of explored the idea, you know, you probably should be moving around. Probably shouldn't rest. I mean, that's, that's traditionally what, you know, uh, so I, I liked how, you know, he explained, you know, a lot of the literature showing that, you know, early exposure and greater exposure to, to movement is probably going to be a little bit more beneficial than if you just sit and do nothing, which is pretty much true with any injury too, right? Yeah. Isn't that crazy that like, like just the concept that there's a possibility with our recommendations, we could be making people more sensitive to that problem.

In that case, the light, you know, that makes good sense. It does. And I just correlate it to how it is when people just generally get injuries as well. You know, some people, you know, they like to stay off of it. They want to rest, take that approach and they end up getting worse or exacerbating their problems versus, you know, experiencing it and moving. And, you know, a lot of the literature is showing, you know, you need to actually move around, uh, become less fear avoidant, um, and deal with those concepts. Then you become a, you're becoming a coach again in that realm. Um, cool. So as we start to wrap up here, then, uh, is any last words from Max?

Oh, some last words. Um, I think people should take high advantage of utilizing your podcast. There's so much to learn from it. Uh, other podcasts as well. Um, I know as a student, you get bogged down with a lot of work, but you have to, uh, venture outside of that schoolwork. So one, you can have a life to enjoy things and enjoy what you're going to be doing. Um, and then I also think, you know, taking advantage of, you know, continuing education opportunities, not just to learn, but also to network. Um, there's been a lot of friendships who develop going to a lot of these places and you have them all over.

Um, so I think just, you know, getting involved as much as possible is going to be the most beneficial thing that you can do. One, just for yourself and two, for becoming a professional. Nice. Yeah. Good words on that. Actually, you're wiser than I was as a student, as a student. The dumb ass. 7 a.m. Right. Sometimes it's cocktail. Yeah. So, well, thanks so much for being on. Oh, thank you for inviting me. Yeah. Max, thanks so much for being on. Uh, that was enlightening. And, uh, it's funny, actually, after we were on, uh, we took about 10 minutes after and had some conversation, which this is why I start recording at the beginning of the podcast or the beginning of the interview with the person as soon as the phone comes on, because a lot of times there's really great stuff in the beginning.

In this case, there was actually better stuff in the end than there was probably in the beginning or in the entire podcast. Um, so we conversed about random things and, um, it's when the mic goes off, sometimes you have a, like, uh, you have clarity because you're not presenting to anybody anymore. But I think Max's information was really helpful, um, at least to me. And I think you guys, uh, got some great information from it as well. So, uh, as you heard partway through the podcast, we do have a sponsor and I'm not going to lie. It is a business that I was part, uh, was part of creating. It's Pro Chiro Online CE.

And I do really want you guys to go check out some of the stuff in there. Um, explore, figure out what you want to learn about. There's multiple little modules, but also there's a big module too. Uh, there's free samples of all the stuff. All right. And if you go on to the Facebook Pro Chiro Online CE page, there's also a lot of great information in there that are also in the courses, but also to just curated content of things that we kind of wish we would have learned a long time ago, but we, that are interesting now. So the online platform, the idea is again, so that you guys can get your CEs, but really it's, um, I've talked to this, I've said this to many, uh, students and, uh, interns that I've had in young docs, I guess that the people that I kind of, I see that there's a lot of promise in and I really wish that I knew what I knew then what I do now.

And after going and hearing Dan John speak after his, you know, 40 plus years of coaching experience, he, we can pave the, we can, we can pave the way, or we can just follow in, in the footsteps of people who have already paved that way and figured out what, what they wish they would have done wrong or done better anyways. And so the idea is this platform is, is to help you guys follow a trail that we have followed that is full of fruitful things. Let me put it that way. So explore that. Um, and I think you will not be disappointed. And, uh, as we close out this podcast, thanks for, thanks for being part of the movement.

Uh, if you encounter me at any workshop, please walk up and say hi. Um, I love to hear when there's listeners, uh, at the workshop and, um, I, I love to hear what you guys, uh, want me to improve on. So, uh, just check it out. I will see you guys later.