A chiropractic student on rehab gaps, niches and talking to people

a lot of kids, and I include myself in that category, that are getting after it and learning stuff outside of school just because they're passionate about it. I've been thinking a lot lately about why that is, and I think part of it is because there's a little bit of a shift in mentality. It used to be if you challenge the status quo, you're some sort of rebel, and it's less desirable, and it's really challenging to challenge the status quo. But I kind of realized the other day, part of my identity is challenging the status quo. So it's almost cool to be the person that challenges what you're learning.

You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey guys, this is Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host with the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. If this is your first time, welcome. Thanks for spending about the next hour or so with me, and today we're going to have a guest. So thanks for joining me and the guest. If you haven't been to this podcast before, again, it's about roughly 45 minutes to an hour format, sometimes a little bit over, based upon what we talk about. Sometimes it's an interview, sometimes it's just me talking. And by the way, it's intended for clinicians and patients alike.

As I've been trying to describe it, it's like we're all having a drink at the bar, and someone asked, or me and the clinician asked, or talk about sciatica. And you're like, hey, I work in finance. I have no idea what sciatica is. And so explain it a little bit. And so make sure that it's not an isolated conversation. So patients will hopefully feel better about what their body's doing and if they can recover and what's expected of them. And clinicians are hopefully going to get better at communication. And so this podcast is kind of conglomerate around that. And some of the podcast episodes are more isolated at educating the clinicians, and other ones are intended to share with your patient populations. And so if you've not been in the archives yet, there is some amazing guests back there. And I swear, if you guys email me and you say, hey, what do you think about this topic? I'll say, you know what, I covered that like 10 weeks ago. Let's just go back in the archives and check stuff out. I promise you probably there's better stuff than you ever thought possible back there. All right. And so today, we're actually going to go into the third interview of a this is a DC student. His name is Mark Murdoch. And we've been in communication for a long time about random stuff. But a few months back, I asked, hey, why don't I actually see how this is going? Why don't I see if this podcast is actually changing the chiropractic or let's just say movement provider based profession? And so I am open to have it on ATCs, PTs, and even MDs and just see if we're making a change here. Because I think that we all can agree that the stuff that we did 10 years ago is not the stuff we do today, or at least not what the evidence informed show. And so I want to make sure that we're progressing everything forward. And so our patients get better care. And so I thought I would interview some students. And again, this is the third one and just see if that's happening at all and just see what's going on with them. What it's like in the schools, what it's like to exit school. And if there's anything in these podcasts that have hopefully changed their way of practicing. And so I'm looking for feedback on these and I'm looking to improve the show really. And I don't know any other better way than to ask the listeners. And these people have been very active listeners. And so I'm hoping to learn some stuff from them. Now, if this is your first time again to the show, I do tend to share a little bit about myself through a short story format. And so we're going to get into that in a second here. And then we'll go straight into the podcast with Mark Murdoch, which by the way, you can reach him on Instagram. That is at M-A-R-K. That's Mark with a K.

Murdoch is M-U-R-D-O-C-H. So here we go. You know, one story I actually forgot about for a very long time was, so when I was a kid, so I'm about 36 now. And if you're around my age, there was a time in life where you actually, if you went to McDonald's, there was 29 cent hamburgers on certain days or 39 cent cheeseburgers on another day. And there was a fish fillet and a Friday, I think. And they're all like, there are certain prices, like obviously like they were 89 cents, 99 cents, something like that typically. So when I was back growing up, like I didn't have a ton of money. Like my family wasn't poor or anything. We didn't live in the sticks or anything, but we'd go over there from school and we'd try to get ourselves a cheeseburger or a hamburger or something. So you go on that certain day, you're like, you know what? Like I'm going to get myself a cheeseburger. But the thing was that, so I'm lactose intolerant, if you guys know me.

So I can either choose to take a lactate pill or just simply not eat cheese. Not a big deal, right? So I pull up to the window there and I'm like, hey, can I get a cheeseburger with no cheese? Because it was 39 cent cheeseburger day. And they're like, no, no, no, you can't do that. And I said, why not? And they said, because that's a hamburger and hamburgers cost 89 cents a day. I said, I know, but can I just get a cheeseburger with no cheese? And they're like, no, no, you can't do that. I'm like, what's the difference? You just take the cheese off. They're like, well, we can't do that. We have to ring it up as a hamburger.

I said, okay, fine. Can you give me a couple of cheeseburgers? So I took the cheese and took it off. And obviously that cheese is like plastic now anyways. So by the way, I don't eat McDonald's anymore. I think it's been a very long time. Gosh, it's probably been like 10 years, 15 years since I had a cheeseburger from McDonald's. But anyway, it's probably why I forgot it for so long. But yeah, cheeseburger, no cheese. Apparently you can't do that because it's a different price. It's a different item. Damn it. You can't just put that double cheese on someone else. You know, like someone else can be really happy with that other piece of cheese. So it makes me kind of think maybe they didn't make it to order, you know, because it was already done. They want to take the cheese off. Anyways, there you go. Cheeseburger, no cheese. Let's get into the content.

There we go. Can you hear me? I hear you. Okay, cool. Morning, Seb. Morning. How are you? Yeah, I'm doing fairly well. Wednesday morning. The sun is gone here. So we're back to our second winter. But, you know, it is what it is. It's gone. Like, it's just, when do you, is it the clouds? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a classic Northwest coast where you get that first summer and everyone freaks out and they're all stoked about it and they put their winter coats away. And then, you know, today it's low 60s. So, I think it's low 60s. So it's a yearly occurrence. It's not like, this is not an anomaly. No, people fool themselves every single year. For sure.

The Death Star doesn't come over and shadow the sun for about two months after that. Well, funny enough, I don't know if you can see it, but speaking of Death Star, I have Darth Vader behind me and then I have Darth Maul on the wall. My roommate's decorating. I did set, so I was thinking of it. Actually, last time I was, I had heard that Disneyland down here now has a Star Wars world. Yeah. I've heard it's pretty cool. Did it actually open yet or no? Great question. No idea. But here's what I, here's what I heard about it because I think Disney's pretty much the devil. So, you get inside Disneyland, you have to pay to get in there. And I heard you have to also pay to get into the other park or now the Star Wars world.

Sounds about right. Is Harry Potter world the same thing? I don't know. Universal is universal, right? Great question. No idea. Yeah. They're, they're not Disney though. So, I, I don't know, but I haven't been to Disneyland in a long time. And, uh, but I would be interested to see what that looks like. No, I've heard it's pretty cool from the people who have gone, at least the Harry Potter one's pretty cool. And it sounds like the Star Wars one's going to be pretty cool, but who knows when I'll make it down that way. I don't know. When, when will you? Cause I won't make it up that way for a while.

That's a good question. I've been meaning to make it down to shadow both you and Ben, but I need a seminar coming around to, to make the excuse to, to make the track. Yeah. Have you been to, you haven't been in neurodynamics yet, right? No, I haven't, but I'm looking at doing that in St. Louis, the end of July. That's at Brett Winchester, his facility. That'd be pretty, pretty sweet, but, uh, it's on the list. The list is just so long nowadays. Yeah. I figure all of them. I was going to say there's that Arizona one. So if they, if you made that track, you might as well move, move over a little bit, you know, it's true. I think that's literally the same weekend as I have my board exam. So that's not going to work out super well, unfortunately, but I don't know. I've been, I've, I've been chasing that seminar around for, I guess, two years now. It's even when I first started at R2P, they're like, this is the seminar you need to go to before you graduate. Cause it's a, a, a definite tool that you can't get any other way besides actually going to learn from, from Shacklock.

Yeah. Yeah. It is a hard one. I went to the second one and I really didn't want to, I didn't want to spend 1200 bucks again. And I wanted, I didn't want to take two more days off of work. And, uh, I'm like, yeah, it's, it's kind of like, like when you see that the Pokemon that you really want is like within two miles, like you would walk there, like, cause it's never ever there. Yeah. So, well, uh, it is, but it's actually, it's a lot. It's, it's, uh, interestingly, after going through the first one, it was, so, uh, probably the first, the, the, some of the simple stuff like contralateral sliders and slider progressions, like after the first one, it's like, Oh, I got this. And then after that, you're like, crap, I forgot this. Right. And so it's been interesting after, um, I've had some ridiculopathy cases coming after the second one. And so after been through in a couple of times, plus reading his book, it's like, it's easy. Right. And then, but I, I imagine what patients are paying me for is, is just guiding them through going from one leg to the other leg in the progression.

But I'm like, why would they pay me for this? It seems so easy. And, but at the same time, like it took me a long time to, to sink into. So, um, some of those easy things came out, but also to like the subtle nuances of, of the more specific locations are, are in there. But afterwards you start thinking like, I just, I just want to go have a beer like this, this, this, this is enough. Well, that's the exact same thing that, uh, you know, could Matt Ward and, and Sasha from R2P, I believe they said after the second day, their brains just absolutely fried. So then going into day three is a struggle. And then you have yet another day of really high level, intense learning, but I'm looking forward to it. I think it'll be fun.

Yeah. I think that that was for the first go around or the second. That was their first one. Yeah. Oh yeah. Read his book first. The book is a, I think it's really useful. Um, and if you see some of his demonstrations first, it makes a much, much better sense. And then you can kind of, you can gather more when you're actually there, you know? Yeah. Uh, my attending physician who I'm under right now for my practicum has done neurodynamics and he's very particular, especially on the static openers. They probably use the openers more than, more than the tensioners and the sliders, I would say. So that's been really beneficial. Just getting that subtle nuance of, you know, that's a lot more flexion than I would have put them in for that lumbar opener. And it's like, okay, well that made a huge difference versus I tried it and it didn't work or no, let's actually dive into it and do it properly and then decide whether or not it didn't work.

Yeah. Right. I think, yeah, that shows a good point. If, uh, I know that there'll probably be, I'll actually, I'm gonna have you introduce yourself in a couple minutes here, but since you went on that is, um, I, I have some interns right now and so I have them working on each other. And so one of them has a radiculopathy and so they went through McKenzie's and, and they, they did like 20, 30 of them. Like, they're like, well, it didn't work. And I was like, what do you mean it didn't work? And she, they're like, well, the symptoms came up, but then it got worse in the back. I'm like, that that's good. Yeah. And so this, the learning experience of it. And I'm like, great, cool. Just do 20 more. Let's just see. Yeah. Um, and I think those nuances of the openers are the same, you know? Yeah. Um, tell everyone about yourself and, um, whatever you want to talk about today, this is an open mic for you.

Oh, sweet. Um, my name is Mark Murdock. I'm a Canadian. So am I your first, I'm not your first Canadian guest cause you've had McGill on before. Not that I'm comparing myself to Steve McGill, but I also had a, the, the concussion doc. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Dr. Marshall. Um, I'm a student at the university of Western States. I'm in my 10th quarter of 12. So the light is at the end of the tunnel and I see it coming. Um, kinesiology background, traditional martial arts background kind of chiropractic was the logical next step for me. Uh, I did some athletic training in my undergrad, traveled around with the soccer team. I'm not an athlete by any, any stretch, but I was able to manage their injuries and actually go and, you know, travel around the provinces and tape up some ankles, which is a great learning experience, but that kind of sparked the question of, okay, well, what's next? Cause I don't have all the answers for these athletes, nor do I have all the answers for my own, you know, training questions or injury questions.

So, uh, physical therapy school in Canada is two years. It's super hard to get into. It's not super expensive compared to like a DPT or DC program, but I figured if I was going to spend two years, I might as well spend three years, get the doctor behind my name. I love doing manipulation. I always loved spinal manipulation myself for getting treated. So chiropractic school is kind of the next logical step and Portland was close and had a good reputation. So here I am. Well, so, um, after you've gone through school already have, uh, what are the big takeaways so far that you learned from the actual curriculum or from everything else? Well, I mean, let's just say experiences during school, you know, like, cause I know when I went in, I, I thought a certain thing. And as I went through, I started to change my mind a little bit, you know, uh, I mean, obviously I've learned a lot and there's a lot more to being a doctor and having the letters DR in front of your name. Then I, I first thought the first year of basic sciences, as much as I love basic sciences, it's, it kind of drags on. UWS has very strong diagnostic curriculum. So I think most of my colleagues come out as very good diagnosticians, not necessarily the best at actually treating what's in front of them. So that's been kind of a learning experience. Um, we, we do a lot of adjusting, but not nearly as much as some of the other schools, our rehab curriculum is fairly lackluster. And I'll, I'll attribute that in part to a transition of staff. There's been kind of a turnover the last couple of years. So the staff that used to teach the more rehab oriented classes are no longer there. And then there are some less experienced instructors that are teaching now. So that's been, I mean, if, if I was going to miss out on anything in school, missing out on the rehab is probably the best thing for me to miss out on just because I'm going to pursue that outside of school. You know, I've been exposed to McGill, Shaq Locke, R2P, McKenzie, all of this outside of school. Some of it before I came to Cairo school in general, my undergrad instructor was a huge McGill fan. So the, the big three and abdominal bracing were, you know, terminology I was already familiar with, familiar with.

But if I was going to miss out on anything, it might as well be the thing that I'm constantly putting my time in outside of school anyway to pursue. It's interesting. You say that the, uh, you see the time out of school, you're pursuing that because, um, the, the, the second student interview I had, uh, it was kind of like the same, uh, same kind of like thought process. It was like, I'm spending all my time in school doing this and I'm learning this, which is great, but it's not what I want to do kind of thing. And, um, it was like the frustration she had with having to spend her own, uh, all of her spare time and money and trying to find these things was really challenging, you know, in addition to doing the other stuff that you need to pass board, you know? Um, is that like, uh, is that you uniquely or is there more students like that?

We have a pretty solid crew at UWS between the rehab to performance club and the motion palpation Institute club. There's a lot of, a lot of kids. And I include myself in that category that are getting after it and learning stuff outside of school, just because they're passionate about it. I've been thinking a lot lately about why that is. And I think part of it is because there's, there's a little bit of a shift in mentality. It used to be, if you step challenge the status quo, you're some sort of rebel. And like that is, it's less desirable and it's really challenging to challenge the status quo. But I kind of realized the other day, part of my identity is challenging the status quo. So it's almost cool to be the person that challenges what you're learning and goes a little bit extra and gets that little bit extra piece of knowledge. A downside for me is sometimes that's caused me to just brush off stuff that I, I need to know, you know, I need to know the Wells criteria that we learn for, you know, DVT and all of these different things that are really important within our curriculum that it's, Oh, well, I'm going to be an MSK specialist. I don't need to know that much about Yomber a syndrome. Well, it turns out I I'm going to be a doctor. So I probably should. And I feel like I fall into that category as well as some of my peers. It's still the majority of people are going there, you know, 71% is a pass. So they're going to get that 71%. Then they're going to go and adjust all day, every day. And that's the extent of their skillset. I think there's a shift, but there's still definitely that mentality among a lot of my peers. Yeah. You do kind of look like the funds just challenging the status quo with that, with that. You got a pop collar on right now. So it's actually a hoodie, but I'll, I'll take it. Okay.

I didn't see the backside. Uh, yeah, I, I, I think there's an important part in that too. And I know that you've, you're part of the business club there, right? And so the, uh, I think from just a marketing perspective, I think that people or especially students might want to consider that if they don't challenge the status quo, they'll get, they'll get stuck in, into the masses and no one recognizes who's not unique. Um, and like, even like as, as much as people like bitch and don't complain about, like, you're always like our presidents, right? Our American presidents. Um, no matter who it is, like they, they have a standpoint, you know, and they don't deviate from it. It's like a, yeah, it's the campaign. Right. And so, so it's being polarizing, I think. And so, uh, I think you're on the right track to be, um, just be that guy, you know, I'm hope so hopeful. So with, uh, the, with the business club, uh, talk to me about that. I think that you're, you're probably the best student to, to ask about business stuff, I think. Um, cause I think a lot of students are going to get out and have a big rally check about how much money they owe and how much crap money they make.

Well, I mean, we've talked about this a little bit, but it's a totally separate skillset. It's another trend that I've kind of noticed the more and more of my colleagues that are asked whether or not they want to own a business, whether it's right out of school or eventually that number is significantly smaller than I think it was even five, 10 years ago from the feedback I'm getting from my instructors. So I think there's definitely been a shift from a chiropractor is, is an entrepreneur to a chiropractor is a doctor. And don't get me wrong. We're always going to be both of those things. Even if you're an associate, I think if you're an entrepreneur or have entrepreneurial tendencies, you are going to be much more successful than the associate who just shows up and, and punches their time card. But I have, I've been super lucky in the sense that my dad is a small business owner. Uh, I own a martial arts franchise, which I started with a couple of friends of mine, which has been a super great exposure to business as well. So I've kind of always had that entrepreneurial tendencies. So I came into this program with no question of whether or not I was going to own my own clinic. Now, right now I might stay in the States for a year or two, which makes things a little bit more difficult. So I might end up actually ironically being an associate first, but the goal is always going to be owning my own clinic. The there's definitely a, a mentality that chiropractic schools don't have good business education. And to be fair, I think most of them do not. And there's no business component of the national board exam. So, you know, why would they spend that much time on it? But our current business instructor, Dr. Chris Cooper, who owns a local practice here in Portland, he's actually putting out some spectacular content for us. The problem is only six people show up to class. Really? How many of those people actually implement that material? So if people are going to keep saying that the actual teaching is so crap, and then they don't actually show up or implement everything they're being taught, then that's just hypocrisy, just staring them in the face.

Yeah. So is your practice going to be a dojo or is it going to be a practice? That's a great question. We'll see. We'll see what, what model makes sense in undergrad. And my, a couple of years out of my kinesiology degree, I worked mainly with law enforcement preparation, getting them ready for their physical abilities test. So I'm probably going to direct myself towards that niche and that niche between combat athletes and tactical athletes. I've had great experience working with them in the past. So that kind of, that's where I'm directing myself for sure. Okay. Yeah. That is, um, going back to Dr. Cooper stuff. So is, I'm guessing it's a, it's a, it's a side class that he's offering or during lunch or something and just people don't show up.

Is that actually a managed, it's a mandatory class. Yeah. Six to eight. It's, it's a little bit slow. Uh, you know, yes, records all of our classes. So everything is on something called Panopto. So you can go back and watch them later. It's just not taken seriously enough by a lot of my peers, I believe. Oh my God. So what, what are some things that, uh, what are some things you learned through that class so far, actually, that you think were things that your students should have probably known? I think one of the things he harps on the most is your target audience and who is your archetypal customer is let's not beat around the bush as much as there are patients. They're still our customers and you can't help anybody if the doors are closed. So understanding who you're actually marketing to is super important because if you try and help everyone, you can't help anyone. And I know this is something that, that has been very influential for me. So having that, you know, my, my target audience, the name of my kind of archetypal customer, his name is John Shield. He's 32. He's been in the force for six years. He's starting to get back pain at the end of the shift. And he's worried that he's not going to be able to keep working and actually make it to his pension to be able to provide for his family. He has two kids. His wife is a stay at home mom who works a couple days a week when convenient, but mostly focuses on, on the kids. So that understanding who that is helps you with your copywriting, with the videos and the content you put out, rather than just saying, Hey, if you have back pain for a long time while sitting, I can say, if you have back pain at the end of your shift from the gear and all these very specific things that pertain to my target audience, they're going to feel like they're being spoken to.

The catch is it's not that complicated. It's the same thing that I'm probably going to tell, you know, Martha, the 42 year old accountant who sits all day. It's just a very different spin that I put on it. So then when you were developing that, like, I'm guessing you didn't just come up with that, like within 10 minutes, how long did it take you to formulate something like that? And what were some challenges when you're doing it? It's, I mean, it's been a couple of years in the works kind of forming that, that archetype. The first challenge was absolutely understanding what I want to do and where I want to work. If I'm going to go and move to, you know, the Yukon in Canada, where they have two officers in an entire city, that's probably not going to be my archetype. I probably will be more of a generalist, but understanding me first that I'm going to be moving somewhere where there's, you know, 2,500 RCMP officers in the area. That's a Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

They don't still ride horses, but sometimes they do wear the hat. I love the hat. I bet when they get into, when they graduate, they do wear the hat though. They do. They wear the full red, the pants with the big puffed out hips and the hat for sure. But understanding that you need to first decide what your priorities are and then start to build your archetype and how you want to live, I think is pretty important. I think that's something that Bobby Mabee, FTCA has talked about a little bit as well. Don't just go somewhere where the money seems to be good, you know, decide what your values are and then go from there.

So then starting with like a Simon Sinek, start with why kind of book rather than, you know, right away into a selling book or a business book I have found has been most beneficial. One, because I mean, if you listen to audiobooks, Simon Sinek's narration is absolutely spectacular. So that always helps. But knowing yourself and then working from there is huge. And then when you're trying to actually find your target audience, you end up with three, three different circles. You end up with who do I like to work with? Who am I good at working with? And then who is actually going to be able to pay for it? And then somewhere in the middle of that Venn diagram is kind of your, your sweet spot and your niche. And if that fits with your values, then you start building your archetype of customer. Okay. Uh, two questions in this. Number one is why do they call it the real Canadian mountain police? Was there a face, a fake false one?

Royal. Royal. Royal. Okay. Got it. The queen. Remember Commonwealth? Are you, you're not even, wait, Canada is not even their own country or they're, you're still under the government of England? No, we're our own government, but we're part of the Commonwealth. So basically what that means for me. You're like Puerto Rico. Yeah. I have the queen on my, my $20 bill and I can go to Australia without a visa. That's basically what that means for me. Okay. Got it. Uh, so second thing with that is, uh, explain when you have that Venn diagram, you have, who do you like to work with? Who you go to working with? Who do you want to work with? Who do you like to work with? And then who can, as I understood it, who can afford you? Um, so explain a, uh, maybe a bad target market. Cause I'm sure. Okay. So, uh, a great example for me would be golfers. So I would love to work with, with golfers. I golfers can afford it, but I'm not good at working with golfers.

One, I'm terrible at golf too. I don't know what hitting a fat means. So I'm not going to be able to use their terminology. And as soon as I started talking to them, I'm like, so, you know, like if you use the three wood, like is that when it hurts? And like, well, no, it's when I'm putting that it hurts. So that's, that's a disconnect of who I'm good at working with on the flip side. There's the, who can pay for it. And one thing that one quote that I've used from you, which I believe was your dad's quote is never diagnosed somebody's pocketbook. Oh yeah. I think that is an absolutely great quote. But if you decide to work with, uh, the lowest tier elementary school wrestlers, that's probably not the target niche. That's going to be able to actually pay for your services.

If you're offering more of the high end performance clinician side, in my opinion, there's probably maybe in the Midwest, a town where there's, you know, tons of parents who really think their kids are going to make it and you can help them stay injury free for longer, but that's not going to be my niche. And if that's, if that's your niche, then go for it. Right. Right. And I would say that, um, there's, I think there's my experience. There's a, there's a bad niche where they're, I'd say college level athletes are not great. Um, and especially based upon where, where they go to school at, but let's just say they go to state college, they're in that middle range where like your, your parents are kind of like saying, well, you start taking care of yourself and they're like, well, I don't have any money, you know, but they have a need.

So in the front of work with, they need help, but they're not going to pay or they're more challenging to make them pay. So I think it's totally valid to, if you love working with those athletes, then work with those athletes, you know, treat them for free or say you have a slot every Friday morning from, you know, 11 to 1145. That is an open slot once a week, but don't build your business relying on them to pay for your food every month. Mm-hmm. I would agree. Um, and let's just see, by the way, you can back and forth this if you want to. Um, some, some people fear better with the, uh, they, they get, they feel like they're getting pinned in a corner question. So you can always deflect.

Oh, bring them at me. Roll with the punches. Okay. Um, when you're, what's the biggest fear about getting out of school? Uh, tell me, tell me about like, you're like, holy shit, this is going to happen. Uh, currently it's just trying to figure out if I'm going to be able to stay in the States or not. The first year is pretty easy just by filing the paperwork. Um, I don't know, man. I'm, to be honest, I'm pretty excited for the opportunity to really challenge myself, like try and go head on into, you know, into the unknown a little bit. The main concern for me is just missing a big red flag. And then someone's life, someone's, someone's life or someone's lives are changed because of that. Whether it's, you know, uh, a low back pain that I think is mechanical.

And then I, the trial of care is too long, but I think that's a fear that everybody has. And I think for the most part, I'm, I'm probably going to do, probably going to do. Okay. Okay. So then in my experience, a lot of the students getting out of school, they do lack confidence in certain things and certain red flags, uh, or identification red flags is one of them. Um, but you sound very confident in your abilities to get shit going. What makes you different in that? One, I've seen my parents lead by example. You know, I think a lot of people, I've heard this a number of times that hard work is not a skill. And I would disagree. I think you can build the skill to work hard. I think it takes practice. I think you're going to fail at working hard and then you're going to have to restart and start that cycle of hard work again. And my parents have done a very good job demonstrating that for me. One, my dad opened up a retail shop and that was a huge challenge. And I don't think anyone knows how much work it really is to start a business until you start a business.

So I've, one, I've had a great example. Two, I just love the puzzle. So when you love the puzzle, and I think that benefits a lot of clinicians as well, if they love the clinical puzzle, managing their actual patients and trying to figure out the puzzle that is the human being and the human condition. But then on the other side, the, the puzzle of the business and let's experiment with this. And did this give us return? And did we lose money here? And I feel like I really love that game as much as I love the clinical side, which may be an unfair advantage for me, just because that's what I do for fun. You know, I'm, I didn't really, I didn't catch up on Game of Thrones until literally two days ago, you know, cause I've been reading business books and listening to podcasts, including your own. And you know, that's what I do for entertainment. So nice. Yeah.

So it's gotta, I think I agree. It's gotta be a passion. Um, and to be fair, I've never seen one episode of Game of Thrones, Game of Thrones ever. Um, well, I haven't seen a single episode of Breaking Bad, so. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So to be fair, I watched that during grad school. Okay. Yeah. Well, back when you had so much more time, like I just, I have so much time on my hands. Yeah. I think I was around probably term, term four or so when you're, it's just, you're just getting away from, uh, of, uh, biochem. Um, yeah. So yeah, I, I agree. I think people gotta really, they, they gotta, they do gotta enjoy the puzzle. And I think clinically most people do unless they're in the wrong profession.

Um, but, and so I think you introduced, introduced me to Grant, right? Um, yeah, Grant Elliott, the R2P. Yeah. So, cause we were talking the other day and I don't think he'll mind sharing, uh, me sharing this. So he, we were talking about what he wants to do for, for just getting out of school and starting business. And so he has all, he keeps getting these emails or sorry, these, uh, messages from people that are, that are talking about like, Hey, do you have a video on hamstring pulls? Right. And he's like, yeah, I made one like three months ago. Right. And so he'll find the direct link and he'll send it to him kind of thing. And so he was trying to organize all these things. And so we were, we were talking cause I, and the reason I bring this up is cause the puzzle thing is so he figured out a really good way to communicate the, uh, the, the stuff. And that's a one, one puzzle. Um, but then I, I said, you should look at this next opportunity of people emailing you for, for a directory as a way to sell them for your guidance through your own directory. And, and I'm like, if you get a thousand people that go to your, I think it is link tree. If you go to your link tree on Instagram and you realize, so a thousand people went through there, but only one person purchased your, your, uh, say your hamstring directory for a dollar or whatever the heck you pick, then your message was poor. Right. And so I think that finding that second puzzle, um, would help drive business at least for, and I think for students, I think they should attempt to do this kind of stuff like early on. Um, and I know you guys can't technically treat or care or charge, you know, but maybe there's other types of things that, that you can experiment with, like try to figure out how to get five bucks for doing something for five minutes from like a friend, you know, kind of thing, some type of sales thing. I totally agree. If there's one skill that students can start learning now, it's absolutely learning how to sell. And this is not the used car salesman trying to sell you a lemon. It's building confidence in what you know already. Cause even someone the first semester through their chiropractic education already knows more anatomy and physiology than 99% of the population. So to start using the little bits to start to help people and whether you're selling something for $5 or even just pitching yourself to do some sort of free talk at a local gym or something back home, maybe you're not selling a product, but you're still selling yourself to that gym owner to be put in front of his customers. That would be a hugely beneficial experience.

Now in Grant's case, I totally agree. He has a very unique opportunity and challenge. He's absolutely killed it on Instagram, but now his challenge is turning that warm audience into something that will actually benefit him besides double tap, scroll, double tap, scroll. Cause that's only going to go so far. Now, if I had a choice between 60,000 Instagram followers and the 999 that I have right now, yeah, I definitely, definitely pick Grant. So he's been doing something really good. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. I think it's, it's, um, I, I, so, so my girlfriend has, she's about, I think nearly 30,000 Instagram followers. And so she started to sell stuff on there too. And so we have, um, or so on my website, we have about currently, we had a drop, by the way, Google does do updates on stuff. And so they'll, they'll fluctuate your ranking. So we used to have about 70,000 views a month, um, for the website. Now we have 50, 50, 51, 52, something like that. And so 50,000 views a month versus her 30,000. And she makes significantly more sales than I do. And, and it's the same amount of eyeballs. She actually technically has less, but they're, but they're there. And so I, I'm, I'm proud of her doing that. And I'm really happy she's doing that. But at the same time, like, what the hell? Like I got 50,000 people who come on, but there are also people who probably come once or twice and then don't come back. And so they're, they're different types of viewers, but I need to figure out how to get them to go find the information on a site that they're looking for. And that's a whole different, um, it's a whole different call to action. Um, and actually there was a, there's a lady that came in recently that she, uh, we, we did some stuff for her back, um, months ago, six, eight months ago. And so, uh, I set her off doing a hinge at some point and this comes back and she's like, well, I got this, this and that. I'm like, well, great, cool. You still doing some of the stuff that we did? She's like, Oh no, I thought that was a, no, no, no. I haven't done that in a long time. I'm like, dude, here's a podcast to listen to. And so I gave it to her like three, four months or three, four weeks ago. She doesn't listen to it yet. You know? And so like, maybe I need to word that better in the email or whatever it might be, but she's not getting the information she needs to succeed. So anyway, that's the end of my rant. Ironically, I think that's a great tie-in to the students who are lacking the confidence early on. All you're talking about is a hip hinge. You know, after a year, I'm pretty sure most of us should have a good handle on a hip hinge. So if they're looking for something to teach already, a hip hinge would be a great idea of something super low hanging fruit that most people could probably use in their daily life. Cause it turns out we tend to pick things up every now and then and flex over every now and then. I think, yeah, just want to touch on that. Cause I think that's one of those things that I teach at every workshop slash class that I ever teach. So. Okay. So then, uh, I guess we should, we should probably circle back into the, into the clinical stuff by the way. So in your opinion with the, the lacking rehab in, in your guys's experience at school, what do you, what do you mean by that? What is, what is it there? What's competent and what is the missing area? I don't know where to start. It's, it's missing. It's missing a lot. So we still touch on things like McKenzie. We talked about the McGill, McGill big three. We have quite a few rehab, they call them tracks of just progressions of glute bridge and side bridge and, and et cetera. The, the fun fundamental missing piece is an understanding of strength and conditioning though. Cause in my opinion, the difference between rehab and performance, it all it is is scale. So a hip hinge is a hip hinge, whether or not it's a, uh, horizontal broad jump, or if it's just a dowel, but to the wall kind of hip hinge rehab movement, but understanding things like progressive overload.

So the adaptation of the structure, and then understanding that you need to progress beyond that and kind of fluctuate that with recovery and also understanding the, the said principle, that specific adaptation to impose demand. I think if you have a good handle on both of those things, you already have a good handle on rehab, then throw in something like S FMA, S FMA McKenzie neurodynamics. I think those need to be layered on, on top of that. Cause even if we're talking neurodynamics where we're talking attention, attentioner, a lot of that is still specific adaptation to that impose demand. Maybe that's, maybe we are stretching the nerve and we're, we're changing the, the amount of actual perfusion that gets to those structures, or maybe we're just, gradually exposing them to more and more stretch that they become more comfortable with. And then that's, that's their adaptation. Regardless, I think the overload and the specific adaptation are the, the two fundamental things that rehab quote unquote specialists should really have a strong grasp on.

So then if, if we were going to improve the next, the, the term one coming in right now, if we're going to improve their experience to, to get all that stuff through school, what is, what is actually a way that where it can, where it can happen with the least resistance? I have a couple opinions on it, whether if I was going to do a complete overhaul versus if I'm just going to sprinkle in some adaptations, if I'm going to sprinkle in some adaptations, I think one or two of the physiology classes should be changed to an exercise physiology. It's really a subtle change, but I know from myself, my exposure to exercise physiology in undergrad has hugely influenced my clinical education. It's definitely given me some sort of, almost like a framework to look at things in a different lens. That would be the number one thing I would do. And if I don't see why we don't have as a, you know, quote unquote health profession, whether you're in kinesiology, physical therapy, chiropractic, et cetera, I don't see why there's not a strength and conditioning mandatory class once a week where you just circulate who is teaching movements and running people through workouts. I think that would give us huge exposure to different styles of, of training. So that when someone comes in and they're doing, maybe they play field hockey, which I know absolutely nothing about.

And they're like, well, when I take this shot, you know, I, I, I tweak my wrist. Well, now you have a huge set of tools for wrist exercises because you've done, you know, once a quarter, someone went through, through wrist exercises. I think that would be a huge step in the right direction. Then we can think about sprinkling in the more specific protocols, the McKenzie, the neurodynamics, the SFMA. Okay. Um, if I had to guess the school probably won't do that, but, um, is there an opportunity? Does, does, does R2P or movement pal, um, ever go to meet at a gym and just do it? Yeah, we do a lot of that. We don't do as much of the actual, uh, workouts as a group, mainly because of admin stuff and liability. A lot of papers we need to sign, but we'll go through like just last week, we went through the SFMA and then the couple of weeks following, we're going to do some SFMA breakouts and then the actual exercises that you would give that person to try and build your, like, say it's a cervical breakout or to go over a lot of deep neck flexure stuff and then when to adjust and how to incorporate your active care for sure. Okay, good. Yeah. You guys are way ahead of what we were at. We didn't do anything. I think part of it's because we're, information is so easily available. You know, I've, I haven't taken the SFMA course, but I've been able to learn all of the SFMA protocols, whether it's from college, colleagues and instructors or videos online. It's just such a different world when it comes to free information nowadays. Mm-hmm. With, um, I, one thing, one idea that, that, that I had with the last student, um, I interviewed and actually I implemented this with, with my, with my interns here is that I don't know if a lot of you have had the experience of really managing a single person and being responsible for their sole, um, improvement. And so, like, I personally enjoy case studies and, and when I go through my workshop with stuff, I, like, I have people shout, I've had people shout at me, they're like, and, uh, one of them's like, what are you going to cover in the workshop? I'm like, honestly, you saw me work today. I, I, I'm, I, I go with what I see. And so, all these little tools are nice, but you have no idea how to implement them unless, unless you know what you're looking for in entry points in the person's, um, uh, and what they're feeling. And, and my, my suggestions typically when working with someone and figuring out what to implement, it's the, I'm following their symptom and cause it's the best key that I can possibly have.

Um, do you guys, do you guys manage each other at all? Like you're solely responsible for Joe, you know, cause I know we come, we all come out screwed up, you know? So, uh, I think that's a great idea. It's definitely something we can implement a lot more. There's a little bit of that in my current clinic group where as a group will, will basically break out in case study, like someone's knee pain and then what the full group would do, but not as much of, Hey, let's, you know, the three of us, we're going to kind of triangle this out and you manage you, you manage you, you manage me. I think that'd be a great idea.

Yeah. And I think too, if you even go into the part where like, um, some type of, uh, motivational interviewing or even, even, uh, sales part with it, cause obviously free care is, is nice, but at the same time, it's like the, just the practice of the real patient experience, I think would be really useful. I think it'd be also useful on the flip side of, well, I didn't do my homework. Right. So that's going to put me in a, a Hippocratic state. So I need to definitely do my homework if I expect someone else to do theirs. Right. And I can, I can, um, uh, personally testify that when I do stuff with people, like some, like a lot of times I'll, I'll be looking at them and stuff, but, but based upon like what the person's doing, or if I see that they're feeling the wrong thing, or I'm getting the wrong movement bias in there, I'll just do it with them. And so when I do it with them, I end up feeling what they're not, what they're feeling, but I feel what's happening when I'm doing the movement too.

And I'm like, Hmm, okay. So push the four a little bit more aggressively away. Right. And so I think when you do it, you, you get a better understanding of what the patient's going through, but if you've never experienced it before, you have, you have zero, um, ability to really, to, to empathize with what you're feeling. Right. So I definitely think going through that, if I had a suggestion, I'll probably sound like a broken record. Cause I said this last month with the other person, but I, but I think it'd be great. I wish I had that when I was in. Yeah. So what do you want to talk about? What's important to you? What, what makes you not sleep at night right now? Besides board exams, you know, it's, I'm pretty optimistic, optimistic for where at least this small pocket of healthcare is heading and really encompassing the whole person. One thing I'm struggling with as a student clinician in general is the integration of the pain science conversations. Um, I think challenging your bias is definitely helpful, but man, is it frustrating day to day when you're hearing a bunch of conflicting messages. So integrating that into the active care. And I, I still think that quality of movements shouldn't be thrown out despite a lot of kind of what I'm hearing from different camps. That's been the biggest challenge for me lately on, on that flip side. Every now and then I'll hear them talk and they talk about an actual case or I will go and, and shadow a doc. And then they're telling this person like your spine is fragile. And if you bend over, you will be hurt. And then I kind of realized, you know, that the people that I respect aren't saying that they're saying, here's a better way to move. But that's been the, the number one thing for me, that's been a struggle to, to pull the pieces of that puzzle together.

Yeah. So that's, it's, so that's interesting. Um, actually, so by the way, uh, just one reference is, uh, if you, you know, Philip Snell, um, once you shoot him an email and there was a, there was a recent article that shacklock pulled, um, I think it was within the last year, uh, about some of that stuff. Um, patient education and all that kind of jazz. So, um, I don't have the reference for it, but, but Philip, you know, Philip was pretty adamant about getting the, getting the lead on it. So just ask him for that. Um, but I think if I already give you some suggestion on that, I think it's, it is dependent upon what the patient is responding like. Right. And so just a couple experiences that I've had that I, I, I totally preach as much as I can. Hey, you'll be fine. Right.

And, and Hey, we can get over this. The other knee hurt. This doesn't anymore, but this one does have that one fair. Right. Cause that, that kind of, um, uh, experience with the patient. But in some cases, like, so there's this one girl, she came in and she, uh, like I spent about 10 minutes or so. We did just a, it was a consult at the time. I don't do consults really anymore. Um, but, uh, she had a simple angle turn. Right. And so I explained X, Y, and Z here's what's going on. And I eventually said the word joint and she says, what's a joint. And I said, Oh shit, uh, your ankle's broken. Right. And so that was like my default answer. And I'm like, I know this is not right, but this person doesn't understand what the hell I'm talking about. And I thought maybe her interpretation of broken would be busted or not, not fractured, but it was, it was raw enough to where, Oh, I need some help. Right. Um, so that would be one where it's like, I'm not trying to scare the person, but I need them to come back to help them.

And the second thing is if you have someone who is, is, uh, a overly sensitive and analytical person, um, they, uh, you might, there might be something of real concern there. Um, but then you're like, Hey, don't worry about it. Right. Um, because they're going to chase all these little things around and report back to you about like, Hey, my skin was scratchy, you know, is that something? And so I think it's the base based upon your interaction with the patient first about what strategy to use the most. It just my suggestion to you. Um, questions on that. You good. I think, no, I think that's super helpful. I think also one thing that's going to be helpful is just experience and being thrown into the, the lines then enforced to, you know, come up with terminology. I think one thing that I've learned from your, your podcast is your analogies and your, your queuing, I think is one of one of your clinical strengths. Obviously it's very, you know, small window that I get to, to see, but being able to connect those cues and that terminology to that patient in front of me is going to be a skill that's going to develop. And it's going to be incredibly valuable to, I think everyone who is actually in front of me.

Well, I would love, so all your R2P people just like each week, just like get one and treat them just like, just figure out what strategy will work for them. So I think you guys have a real good potential right now to, to implement all those types of things, but it's going to take a little bit extra stepping out of the, like, no, like it's like role playing. It's like, don't, don't even stop to, to talk about like boards and shit and don't like try to analyze it together. It's like, just shut up and be a patient type of thing, you know? Um, so, uh, as we start to wrap up, I got to ask, I do ask to ask you, ask you a couple, a couple of questions though. Sure. Um, so first off is that I think I mentioned that the reason I want to do these student interviews was because, uh, I, as we're approaching around, you're going to be like 150 ish, I think 149 of the podcast. And so, um, one of my favorite shows of Mary with children, it went like 15, 15 seasons and it finally stopped. So things eventually stop. And so what I'm looking for right now is has 150 made a difference in any way, shape or fashion in people's lives. And so I want to, I want to figure out if you've taken any bits from these past podcasts and if so, what were they?

And I want to see what to further create based upon the, though, ask, you know, type of principle. So what do you got? I think a lot for me, this podcast has been a little bit of a bias confirmation. You're interviewing people who one, I already respect for and follow, and I've learned different bits and pieces from every single guest that you've had on the thing I've learned most from you specifically has been the question that you ask, which has, and your analogies, probably those are the two top things. Of course, I can't think of specific examples off the top of my head, but it is, it's kind of spurred me to one, improve my question asking skills. I think that's something I've been trying to improve over the last three to six months is ask better questions. And then two, try and be more creative with my actual analogies with my, my patients. Because like you said, the more outlandish and kind of specific, crazy analogies you use with a patient, maybe they're going to remember it for eight days instead of the next two hours and then forget about it. So I think those are probably the top two for me. And that's just always, always fun to, to listen to your guests in a more conversational tone than necessarily like a super interview structured style has been, been really cool as well.

Okay. I, I know that, um, I've struggled on, uh, and I just didn't, I'd had someone recently where it was, uh, some of them are really hard conversations for me. And it is really easy to talk to someone like you because we're on the same page, you know, and, and I, I'm pretty sure that some of the interviews I pick are, are biases of that. But, um, as I've gone through some, uh, at least one, one recently I thought like, I don't agree with a hundred percent, but it's not my responsibility to pass judgment right now. I need to learn what, what they know and then just let them speak their piece and the, and the viewers listen and figure out what they want to do with it. And so, um, I'll probably start having more people of different opinions on because I need to step outside my box too. But, um, so it's good, good. Uh, I need to be a stop being as biased as well. Um, what other information do you think I should have on the podcast? Cause I've had different styles. I've had, I've had interviews, I've had brainstormings, I've had easy shit, you know, patient, patient related stuff, you know, what do you want to hear more of coming up?

I love the case studies personally that goes a long way for me and just seeing, like you said, the actual management of a patient from start to, to finish or at least start to improvement on, uh, on their condition. But I'm also a little biased. I've loved the business episodes you've had, the episode with Kevin Christie, the one you did specifically about the website. I've taken a lot away from, from those as well. So those are probably the two avenues slash categories that I'd appreciate the most. Okay. I know which one we should do next. I know which one we should, we're going to call the 10 minute conversation.

All right. And I'm going to, I'm going to put, well, we'll do one right now. We'll do one right now with you. Okay. So here's the rules of the game. Uh, I don't, so I don't know if you've ever heard the rule of the 10 minute conversation. Um, but these will, these will, these will just be fun. Um, there'll be, there'll be a come up, come, uh, comedic one. So the rules of the game aren't. So in business or in chiropractic business, at some point you're going to get a phone call probably easily multiple times a week that is going to be a very simple yes or no question. And you're going to answer it and they're going to say thank you and hang up. Okay. And so the way I see it is, is this person is really looking for a solution and they have not found an answer yet, but they, they only know they're just like us. We ask crappy questions and then you get a crappy answer and then that's it. And so I try to get them to, to converse a little bit about their problems so that I can figure out if I'm the right place for this person and if I can convince them to come in. And so it's, it's the 10 minute ring ring game. So I'm going to be a caller and you're going to, you're going to be Murdoch Dojo chiropractic. Okay. Ring, ring.

Hello, this is Murdoch Dojo chiropractic. Hey, do you guys take insurance? Can I ask who's calling? This is Sebastian. Hey Sebastian, do you go by Sebastian or Seb? I go by Seb. Okay, Seb. It's a little more complicated than a yes or no. Can I ask what you're calling for or what kind of help you're looking for? Yeah. So I've had this shoulder problem and I've been going to this PT and it's worked out okay. I just want to see if I can step outside of a little bit and see what else my insurance really offers because my insurance covers PT. And I thought maybe I can get an adjustment. Yeah. I mean, that's something we definitely do here at Murdoch Dojo chiropractic for sure.

How long have you been dealing with this shoulder problem? Oh, it's been, gosh, it's been about three years. It's really gotten better over. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, it used to be terrible. I couldn't sleep on it and my neck hurt. My fingers got numb too. And so we've been doing a lot of shoulder blade rehab and it's really seemingly to work. It's not as bad anymore, but it still aches, especially my shoulder blade area. Okay. Have you found that you've kind of plateaued and that's why you're looking for a different care or are you just trying to accelerate the process? You know, one of my friends that I roll with told me that I should get an adjustment and it really worked for him. And so I just thought it would be a good addition.

What kind of role are you doing? Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling? Yeah, we do a mix of both. We like to do it with singlets, especially. Okay. Yeah. Full singlets or just the quarter singlet? Oh, is there a quarter singlet? I didn't know that. I don't know. I'm not a wrestler. That's outside of my realm. But yeah, you know, I actually have personal experience working with both wrestlers and Jiu-Jitsu players. So the shoulder issue is definitely something that we can have a look at. It depends on whether we're in network or out of network with your insurance, how that's going to pan out as far as coverage.

What I can tell you almost for sure is that you can submit something to your insurance even if you're not in network and you can almost for sure get something back. But it just depends on what your actual goals are at the end of the day with your shoulder. Are you looking for like a quick fix or are you looking more to like have a long-term, you know, bulletproof shoulder? Well, I'd love to have a bulletproof shoulder, but I feel like it's been so slow over the last couple of months. I mean, it was really good in the beginning and just got slow over the couple of months where I just don't know if it's ever possible again, you know?

Okay. Yeah. And it's definitely something we can take a look at. Before we do that, I'd love to chat with your PT as well and see kind of the things that you've been doing. One, so we don't just rehash the same exercises you're already doing, but to see if there's some way that we can actually compliment each other's care as well. Okay. How much does it cost to come see you then if my insurance doesn't cover? That'll depend on how long we need to actually work together to solve the problem and how many times we kind of need to see a per week. I'm generally more cash base. So initial eval will be anywhere from two to 250, depending on how long we take. Again, like I said, you can submit that to your insurance and potentially get some back. And then from there, it just depends on, you know, what exercises we need to have you doing, how much passive care we need to do. Um, the number one way is to come in and have a chat and get an eval and then we can go from there. Okay. Yeah. So, um, I don't know if that was 10 minutes or so, but that was actually really good. You've been playing this game already. I just, I've, I've had to play the game already.

Uh, yeah. So there, um, yeah, we, so we role play this sometimes in office and, uh, it's really, it's really hard to get to that point, but yours was really good. Um, but anyways, so I thought it'd be maybe, uh, maybe we'll do a 10 minute rule, whole podcast with just different people. It'd be so comedic. That'd be great. Then up with a bunch of quarter singlet jokes for sure. Right. Um, yeah. And students, if you're not playing the 10 minute rule, uh, uh, game, you probably should because it's, although Mark made it look really good, it's really damn hard. It's a challenge. It's, it's super uncomfortable as well. Cause it would be very easy to say, no, thanks. Bye. Thanks. Bye. On my side too. It would be. And then say, dude, I'm so tired of these people calling about insurance and saying, uh, they want a quick adjustment. I just say no.

Right. But those are opportunities lost. So yeah, for sure. And I can't take credit for that. I've learned a lot of that from, are you familiar with Danny Matei, the physical therapist? Uh, is that the F insurance guy? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that's the, the shifting the conversation to what actually matters to them. And that's, I mean, you know, this as well, they're not, they're not coming in to get an adjustment. They're coming in because their shoulder hurts because it keeps them from rolling jujitsu or et cetera. So getting a conversation back to what's valuable to them is, is going to get you way farther than yes or no on the insurance question, I would imagine.

Right. And I think too, I think it's important to realize that, that, um, to a lot of the public, um, chiropractic care is the adjustment. It's, it's, it's, it's, it is nothing else. Right. And so they're asking you if you will do what your job is. And it's like, yeah, sure I will. But then, you know, it's, they just don't, it's not an opportunity for them, for you to unload, like what else you could do with them. It's just like, can you help them or not? Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah. Anything else you want to cover? I think that was a good cap there. No, that was a blast. Okay, cool. Well, thanks for being on. Um, and don't go anywhere yet.

I won't. I'll stick around. Good. Nice. Thanks so much, Mark, for being on. That was amazing. And, uh, I hope there's, take special note there. I think y'all realize that Mark is, uh, he's a good communicator, really good communicator. And that, and that's a skill that people really need to build. Uh, it took me a long time to even get close. But if you notice, he probably didn't have any ums or likes or uhs, kind of like how I do. So, uh, he's probably better off than I am. Anyways, so let me, uh, let you guys know how to find him. That, that is Mark, M-A-R-K. Murdoch is M-U-R-D-O-C-H. So he has his handle on Instagram. That's at Mark Murdoch. Uh, and also too, he is going to start putting together. It's not current yet, or it might be current at the time of this podcast, but not the current time of making this. By the way, I interviewed him, um, in May. So, um, quite a few months before you guys will probably hear this, but he's going to put a resource document together for students that are interested in any business stuff. Um, and kind of figure out what they can start doing now and just kind of brainstorming, just kind of helping everyone, everybody in regards to the student world, start to develop their business and their ideal market and all that kind of stuff. So as you can see, he's got a lot of, uh, information, uh, to share with you guys on that. And I think it's a, it's a lost thing. It's a lost thing.

I, I had no idea what I didn't know about business until I got into business. And I know that, um, I mentioned it before, but I have my, I meant my interns do a business, uh, uh, projects because I know it's, it's a real thing. They might not care about it now, but they need to care about it soon. And so if you're looking for that, that's Mark Murdoch at CA, um, not.com, but at CA. So, uh, check it out. And so one more thing before I go, actually, because, uh, I, I do want this to happen. And I, I, you know, I don't want to keep sound like I'm like a salesy dude. Cause I'm not, I think that I really, I really want to, uh, keep spreading, uh, the good will of improving our profession. And I think after my experience with that workshop that I had, uh, that I had presented basically in, in June, uh, I had a lot of my colleagues, uh, leave with some, with some gems and I feel like I learned those gems years ago and I just had not had the opportunity to share them yet. Cause you know, you get together, you talk, you don't always talk, talk shop, you just talk friends. And, uh, so I think my, my experience with the, the response that they're able to use that all those tools in a very productive way at their office and their patient outcomes are better and their time spending doing manual therapy is actually down and their patients are becoming more empowered. I, I, I thought about, I want to do this workshop again, maybe not for the same people, but, uh, I thought it would be a good addition to, uh, your guys' skillset. And if you don't learn anything, I hope at the very least that you learned how to communicate, uh, or I think I communicate well. And so if you want to communicate a little bit better like me, just, just see how I deliver things, uh, to people. And so what I'm thinking is again, uh, at the time I'm doing all these recordings and cause I'm kind of patching them into the, into the podcast, uh, here and there is that I want to make sure that, uh, everyone knows I don't know the exact date yet and, but it will be posted on Instagram and it might be on Instagram right now. And so my handle is at performance HB.

And basically the idea was that I want to make sure that I want to see, I want to see if we had interest yet. I believe in asking the audience what they want, or if they're willing to attend something before I actually, um, um, block off my book. Cause I could easily go boating those days. And, but I'm thinking August 24th or September 27 or September 7th this year, 2000, 2019, uh, early bird discounts are only till July 4th. And so in this case, if you're listening to this podcast here, which one's this, this is going to be Mark Murdoch. And so that early bird has already, uh, it's already passed. Sorry. And so, um, you should listen to that podcast. And so the, the, the after one, it's going to be six 50. Okay. And if you're interested in it, basically the clinical pearls we're going to cover is that we're going to cover how basically to, to manage and decrease symptoms on people with, um, all various conditions, which I'll mention in a second here without really even having to do manual therapy on them. All right. And I'm serious. Like I, I'll put my hands on them to guide them. But a lot of patients that I see, it's like, dude, I don't even have to do manual therapy as much as I do, uh, anymore. And most of the time the manage that manual therapy is because people are asking for it, or there's a true adaptive response has happened over time.

But if we're look, looking at a little bit more of like three months or so, then a lot of these people are not like, there hasn't been a muscular adaptive response. I don't think there's been a fascia restriction that's really occurred. I mean, they could, they could happen. And so it's very unique to each person's case, but for the most part, I don't think we should jump to the fact that we're, we're, we're moving things, uh, that our movement that we're, when we're moving things around that, we're actually doing them a good long-term, um, improvement. We're modulating pain, which is great, but at the same time, our responsibility to these patients is, is to get them empowered and doing things on their own and, and decreasing their symptoms in, in a movement-based way, in my opinion. And I think movement is medicine in this and, and load is real application to life. They're going to experience load. They experience load with running. Um, single leg stance is, can really be conditioned well with a suitcase carry. And, uh, with single leg stance with running populations, a lot of runners are concerned about, uh, uh, pelvic drop.

Uh, and so when they have pelvis drop, they have internal femoral rotation. Then they have, um, uh, chondromyalgia patella that occurs or medium meniscus tears or back pain or all five radiculopathy that seem like, um, uh, IT band syndrome. And so I think if we look at these things this way and see that, wow, resistance training really can work and I don't need to have them into a side plank forever, forever. I can graduate them. Then all of a sudden these patients are like, dude, my rehab looks like a resistance training program. That's so cool. Right? And so they'll look good, feel good, become empowered. And all of a sudden all their symptoms can dissipate really quickly. All right. I've had many cases where they've had a long standing condition and we find the correct first aid in, in each case, the first aid is meant to be removed. And eventually we get them to do a corrective really quickly. Um, probably the first day and when impossible, you, you apply a load and you remove the corrective exercise because the correction is a correction. It's not a long-term plan. And these people end up having resistance training programs and they run faster. Um, they feel stronger and they don't feel fragile.

And I think that's the danger that we have with working with patients with, uh, longstanding problems. So anyways, without rambling, if you guys are interested, um, we're, we're targeting, uh, August 24th or September 7th. The early bird discount was in play, but it's probably not anymore after July 4th, by the way. Um, happy 4th of July belated. And if you're a student, um, reach out to, uh, I'll, uh, reach out to me and I'm not providing student discounts on these, um, because I've already done student workshops. All right. The students like, I don't, I'm not soliciting these to the students. It was not on me, not my idea. I, uh, I had people ask to, uh, for me to, uh, to help them. And so I said, look, get 14 people and I'll do it and I'll pay the, uh, it'll be this amount. And so those types of situations are available. Um, SU and not per se the school, but some of the students at the school have reached out to me. And so if, if need be, I'll put you in touch with them. And if you gather 14 people, I'll do it for you guys at a really cheap rate. I think they paid under, I think they paid like 170 bucks the first time. And so, um, that is, uh, how we'll frame things for you guys on this. But as always, leave people better than how you found them. And if you're dating, date an Eagle Scout. And I hope to see you next week.