Simple care first: ice, x-rays and teamwork in sports rehab

The basics are going to be the place to start, and I say that, which is, you don't necessarily need all of us, I feel like, to get to a certain degree. Now there's going to be some points where you're going to need that expert to help you get over things, but you look at kind of generalized low back pain, you know, nondescript, just that there are so many things that you can do individually with whatever tool you want, and probably get a lot of benefit from that. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery.

And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey guys, it's Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host for the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the movement, movement. If this is your first time on the show, welcome. Thank you for spending the next about hour with me. I'm going to do my very best to help you get through some complex information, but make it a little bit simpler. And if you're a clinician, young clinician, established clinician, this is the right place for you. I interview a lot of industry experts, as well as provide some of my own original ideas to hopefully get you guys to really think a little bit more outside the box.

As we all develop as clinicians, not just you guys, but myself. I'm learning every day. If you're patients, if you're a little bit more advanced in interest, this is more of a podcast for you. There are a couple podcasts in here that are a little bit more basic. And I say that in a way because these ones are mainly intended as tools for clinicians to share with their patients. So mainly to improve their education and what's going on and really get them to conform to care so they can get better long-term. So we're going to have one of the boys from Clinically Depressed today. Again, Joel is an ATC.

Dr. Kyle is a DC. AJ is not on today, but he's a PhD. And he is on their show. So if you guys are interested and you like what you hear from them, please go on to the show and subscribe. So they have some really good, amazing episodes in there and their rough story of kind of how they started this show was they would just sit down and figure out all of the things that need to be, not just improve, but all of the ideas that they wish they can educate more people on in their industries, respective industries. So they turned into a podcast, very pure. So they don't make any money on it, as I say a couple of times in there, but there's purity in that.

So it's a passion project. So you're going to feel it. You're going to feel it through all their podcasts. So listen in with that. Also, if this is your first time listening to the show, I do tend to share a little bit about myself in the introduction by a short story, just so you can kind of get to know me. Because if I'm going to be your host through and guide through all of these podcasts, I think you've got to know your host, okay? Before we get into that part, just know that there is the book still out that I did make, which was, I didn't intend to make a book, but it became a book. It's called I Will Beat Back Pain, and it's focused on how to get a winning mental mindset of how to overcome an injury.

Because a lot of times, you give people recommendations, and they don't do them. And so there's other barriers of entry of why. So we got enough injured and hurt and people in pain throughout our lives. I'm sure you know at least three off the top of your head. Maybe this book is a tool for them to hopefully get better and seek the care that they need. So I will put that in the show notes, and it is on the front page of the website, ptsportscare.com. Now let's get into the personal story, and let's get right into Clinically Pressed. All right, so if you have already heard my story about cutting my leg, you're going to know that I already think glass is evil, okay?

And I'm really hesitant to brew beer again in a glass carboy. I mean, we go polyester, polymer, something like that. Something that's not going to break. Because glass, I'm pretty sure glass is the most evil damn thing on the planet. And there's actually these cups in my house. We started with six. What do they call me, six or four originally? But they're long. They're tall. I mean, they're about this, let's go about 10 to 12 inches here. I'm just trying to measure. But the top is so narrow, right? And I don't know about you guys. Like, you might have these, like, little fancy contraptions to, like, clean your cups and stuff and get deep in there.

But I don't. I just got a sponge, right? I got a sponge. I'm thinking about going to a rag, by the way, because sponges are littering the planet. But either way, side story. So I can't get down in there. And I can get almost to the very bottom, but the thing is that that little webbing between your ring finger and your pinky finger, it rides all along that rim there, that skinny little glass rim. And I keep thinking about, like, you know how sometimes you find those glasses that have the little chip point in there? Can you imagine just slicing that point on your hand? Just that little webbing, just that tiny little webbing between your ring and your pinky finger?

That's why I think glass is evil. And if we are going to have glass, that would be a little bit thicker glass, something more robust, like a mason jar. I'm down with the mason jar, right? And I'm glad all those other three to five glasses in my house broke. They probably broke because, I mean, they're evil. But there's that one left, and I keep seeing that damn thing, and I just leave it in there. Like, I'll wash all the dishes, but I won't wash that one. I'll leave it there, and I'll actually leave it up top, and I'll put water in it to make sure that all the stuff, like, cleans nicely for everyone else.

But at the same time, I'm kind of secretly hoping it just tips over. Like that one glass, I see it, and I'm like, I'm thinking, I hope that you fall. Because as soon as you fall, you're done. You don't got to worry about this shit no more. Because that is the one glass left in my house that I will not clean. I propose we go with something a little bit more open mouth, right? I'm down with cleaning my glasses and my Yetis and stuff like that. But they've got to be open, all right? No one likes dirty glasses. No one likes to get their pinky finger webbing torn up by glass either. So, yes. Let's get into the content now.

All right, guys. Welcome on the boys from Clinically Press, the podcast. Say what's up, guys. Hello. By the way, we're not going to use the videos, so in case you want to pick your nose or anything, it's all good. Okay, so why don't you guys tell everyone your names, because I'm pretty sure I'm bad at butchering everyone's names. I'd rather just let you guys do that footwork if you can. Joel, you want to start? I'm Joel Lukey. Yep, I'm Joel Lukey. I'm an athletic trainer. Do a license and education. I work at the University of Wisconsin. Lacrosse, which is the city of lacrosse, not the sport of lacrosse, even though we are adding that in the near future, but that's a common confusion.

It's actually the city. Actually, I was looking at your CVs, and there was lacrosse all over it, and I didn't make the connection either. I just thought you just love lacrosse. No, no, it's been a huge misconception when I've gone other places, because the state system in Wisconsin, it's the University of Wisconsin, and then insert the city after it. So technically, like the University of Wisconsin that everybody's familiar with, the big school, is actually the University of Wisconsin-Madison, but nobody says that. And so we live in lacrosse, Wisconsin, but yeah, that is, oh, so how long have you worked the class?

Well, I've never actually worked the sport, just lived there, so. It's maybe not that common of a sport here, either. No, it's not. It's going to be pretty popular. There should be like an ongoing series of like just ridiculous responses you guys have if you get acid all the time. Right, yeah. We're going to have lacrosse, lacrosse coming up here pretty quick next year. We just added a women's team, so that's interesting. Yeah, I would love to be the one that prints all those t-shirts and jerseys. Agreed. Dr. Kyle, you want to tell us about yourself? Yeah, for sure. So my name's Kyle Bowen. I am a chiropractor by trade.

And I met Joel actually while coming down there to the athletic training center at UWL to help take care of their athletes a little bit on the side. So I treat everybody, but I guess more of an athletic and performance and rehab type focus. So lately, actually, I just started some training with Chris Kresser for functional medicine as well. So we're trying to bring that into practice as well, trying to integrate that in. Nice. Well, I see that you're both using standing desks. That's a very, very astute of you. Yeah. So the reason I wanted to bring you guys on, actually, is that I think your mishmash of disciplines, it's interesting.

And I think you guys did a podcast recently where you mentioned something about kind of the profession, the other one being a little bit threatened when the other one comes in. And you're just going to, like, offload all your responsibilities to the other one, but you really don't want to. And I think it's something that, since I have a lot of chiropractors and healthcare providers that listen to this, I think we all kind of know that. And it's challenging to navigate that field. So how have you guys kind of done that and started working together? Well, not to completely rehash that episode, but the story is kind of funny how we got together and that we've run into it with some other things.

And it's an example I used, but I got introduced to Dr. Kyle, a colleague of ours that met him. That's a long part of the story, but expressed interest. He brought it back to me. And then I was fairly new in my position where I'm at now and kind of trying to set a tone. I had, like, what I thought was all these, like, super pressing questions and was just going to make sure, you know, that Dr. Kyle understood what we were trying to accomplish and what I wasn't going to deal with if, you know, he came down and whatnot. Like, what I don't need to hear. So whatever they're doing is wrong. You've got to do it this way.

Or I need to see you every week for the next year and a half, you know, for an adjustment in order to be the only thing that will fix you. And he didn't present any of that. So that made it really easy to get together and work together. And it's just been an evolution of skill sets and collaboration that ended up working out really well. And then the one thing we kind of talked about, and I'm speaking from the athletic training side, is I'm sure with every clinician around you, you kind of get protective of your patients. Not that they belong to you, because that's not our thing, but, you know, they're what they go with.

Well, that's how athletic trainers feel, especially in the athletic setting. And seemingly a lot of people like to get involved with that. They're a fun population to work with. They are committed, which is always a good thing. From your patients, like, they want to get better, which usually helps the process. But I think what gets lost sometimes is, even if it's out of the business of their heart, people can come in and try and help too much or help where it's not actually communicated. And so I kind of made the analogy of, you know, think about it like you come to a game or something like that.

I'm all for, you know, parents helping kids and things like that. That's all good. But, like, you start just trying to treat everybody, how would that go over if I just walked into your clinic and walked into your rehab area or something and just started doing treatment on your patients that were in the waiting room? Because you might have had something else going on. And I can't imagine that that would go over very well. Not that I would ever dream of doing that, but just having that communication is so big and that respect and figuring out kind of what each profession or professional can bring to the table.

So then where do you think you guys, I mean, I have the thought that we kind of, as like ATCs and PTs and DCs and we all kind of, we're kind of coming to be almost the same thing. Like we kind of know the same, some of the same stuff might have like biases and different things, but where do you guys' lines actually divide that you see? I can start, you can elaborate if you want. Yeah. So how we've kind of done it, adjustment-wise, definitely, it's not, it's a very great area in athletic training in terms of what Leicester Laws allow you to do. But in terms of like a comfort level, I don't have any real comfort with that because I don't know that the training that I've very minimally done would ever set me up to feel that proficient in it.

So obviously with that being a big focus of chiropractic school and a lot of things there, like that's something we'll happily hand off. We think that it's justified, but then for us, Kyle and I have gone to a couple of DNS courses together. He has gone and done more beyond what I have and uses it much more frequently on a daily basis with his patient care. So where I feel comfortable probably continuing it with an athlete, if we decided we want to go down that route, focusing on some of the principles there, he's the person I'm going to put him in front of because he's just better at some of the finer nuances of it with different things.

So we'll start there, get a good baseline so then the athlete can feel really what they should be feeling. And then that allows me to help kind of carry it on so they can eventually follow up the next week or two weeks, whatever it may be, and make sure we're still getting that improvement. But then the next progression, at least not familiar enough to be dangerous to keep it going that way. But I'd like to get them set up with somebody that's better at it to begin with. Yeah, I think it took a little bit of time to get to that point that we're at now. Just like you said, good communication and everything.

And just, I think, initially feeling each other out in terms of treatment style, like what I can do to best serve the athletes and how that can combine with what they're doing in the athletic training setting in that, you know, down there at GWL. So it's just been some trial and error. And I think all of it's been good. It's better now than it was initially than what we started. I think it's just more efficient. I think it works. We work better together. It works better for the athlete. You know, it's just better outcomes. What do you think in probably in the first, like that honeymoon period, what were the major kind of hang-ups that maybe either one of you had with working with another professional that closely or, you know, with that skill set?

For me, I think it wasn't as much a hang-up with working with Joel or any of the other athletic trainers. I think it was just knowing what I can do to help and where I can hand off. Like Joel said, if I give, you know, an exercise to somebody, like being comfortable with them carrying that off in the interim. Where I think initially when I went down there, I was just trying to do everything too much and just trying to fix them right away. And I think I've gone away from that a little bit in terms of, like, looking at the bigger picture and, you know, working together in the fact that, okay, they can take care of this the other six days of the week when I'm not there and they do a really good job of it.

I don't know if there was anything between us more as just, like, working together, you know, finding that best mesh for the athlete. Nice. I think treatment styles changed subtly and then, like, you'd come down and do the eval. Soft tissue work, I think, is the one that had done a bunch. Not that that was ever bad, but it was warranted. You still do from time to time, but that used to be a lot more common. And now just getting comfortable knowing each other and what our staff is capable of. Instead of spending some time on that, that could be better spent focusing on, like, the rehab exercises and really honing those in.

That's something that the AT staff can take over after he's focused on something else. So it's just gotten a lot more specific and helps hammer home some of those things that the athlete needs. Nice. So I usually kind of guide the conversation a little bit, but what do you guys want to talk about? You've got a lot of stuff to say. I don't even have a secret topic. I know that the – I'm sure we've had the same, like, pretty similar experiences with podcasting and whatnot. And I know that probably the drivers of doing that are unique. And I don't know. I love doing a podcast, but I think everyone's reasons are a little bit different.

And what do you guys – well, anyways, what do you guys want to talk about? Let's talk about something you guys want to talk about. Just kind of throwing it out there. We try and use – we try to make it more so with the hashtag, like, complicated, simple, and apply that across a bunch of different things. And with that, I know we talked about, like, our first episode, we just did some, like, common misconceptions and things like that that we hear. And I actually just gave a talk to our AT students about some different things that just to get them to think deeper about. And I think that's a lot of the reason I'm interested in doing, especially the podcast that we are doing through Clinically Press and trying to break down some things that might seem like they need to be overly hard, but don't necessarily need to be.

And that's also why I'm really looking forward when we flip the script and interview with it. But, like, looking at stuff you've done, like you've got your IT band stuff. Well, we talk about the IT band all the time down in our athletic training center because we still have a lot of people thinking, you know, we've got to stretch the IT band and we're going to beat the crap out of it with metal tools and why aren't we getting the benefit that we think we should be getting. And so really just trying to dive into some of those things and try and actually get to a reason and not just do it for the sake of doing it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't make that argument a lot. Whatever flack I potentially could catch with it, like icing. I'm not going to knock anybody, but that was a very, like, everything was iced before I got to where I am, the position I am now. And not that I'm sitting there and being, like, banning ice, like we still have an ice machine, we still have ice bags, like, it still happens. But just trying to sit there and be like, can we do something better? Yeah, yeah. It's going to benefit you more than just slapping the bad guys on. Yeah. What is the purpose that you're doing it for? Because Grandma told me to.

Yeah, yeah, right. The other thing with the podcast, too, is just then there's a lot of information out there, obviously. And I don't know. I'd like to think that we're contributing to the better instead of just, like, putting more information out there. But, like Joel said, making it complicated and simple. Hopefully it's just a source of rather unbiased. Like, it's not like we have a financial interest in, you know, promoting a certain product or technique or something to make a financial gain. Like, we're just trying to hopefully sift through some of that information for people in our respective areas of expertise to be a source for providing, you know, some decent information in the fields of health, wellness, nutrition, performance.

Well, so from all the people you interviewed then, is there anything that really kind of challenged, like, your thinking of how to work with people or, like, clinical practice? Because I know I have on my podcast, there's been a couple times you can probably just hear me on air. I'm like, huh, that's interesting, you know. And then all the shit changes after that, you know. Yeah, we've met some really interesting people along the way. And, you know, I'm not an overly business-y person, but you look at your insurance plan like your niche, like your target market. And we don't do that at all with the podcast.

So it's very much like picking and choosing for the listener, like, what you want to hear. I mean, we interviewed a world champion and junior powerlifter multiple times. There's a colleague of ours. But we've also gone down to Organic Valley and talked with their veterinarian multiple times and always walked away learning something from him because he's got a whole different insight on nutrition and the different things that come from it from his vantage point. And so that's been really interesting. I mean, a couple of the physical therapists we've talked to, chiropractors, still one of my favorite episodes as well.

Brett Winchester, like, I can't wait to potentially talk to the guy again because you're just, you're going to learn something. No matter what happens, you're going to learn something. As much as we're trying to break down this information for everybody else, part of it is scratching kind of our own itch to know exactly, to learn things, meet people that can teach you stuff. Yeah, we've done a course with Logan Gelbrich, the whole the Standard Summit. He is a big proponent for seeking disconfirming information. And I think that maybe we haven't exactly seeked out that in terms of guests, but for our own research and looking things up and just learning things, I think that applies.

And then also, to an extent, with some of our guests as well, it's just like, okay, well, we have these beliefs and we think pretty strongly that this is the way something is. Well, let's talk about maybe potentially why. And if you have a good argument for it and can provide solid evidence, then maybe, you know, that's going to change our own beliefs for that. And maybe we should look at things differently, but maybe it's the other script. And it's like, yeah, I hear you, but I just, I'm more ingrained with what I believe still, you know, like that's even more solidified that I think I'm right.

So I think it's a good thing to always not just be set in your ways, though. That would be interesting to bring on like a heckling crowd almost, you know? Yeah. Like not in a bad way for the guests. We've talked about this. I'd love to start a podcast. And I've got to send my name for it, which I'm not going to say it so nobody can steal it. But basically have like two sides coming in and just argue to the hilt, their side. And to make it, whether that's like us going at them, but just, and make it very aware, like this is what it's going to be. But just to, again, see where people will land in terms of things.

Because that's another one that we talk about a lot. We talk about it on the podcast as well. Neither one of us, even when you throw AJ into the mix, we don't ride on an extreme. It's like AJ with nutrition. He's not anti-vegan, but he's not all for the carnivore diet. You know, that's a big deal right now. Like there's, you can't say it for everybody. That just doesn't work. And that's where we kind of try to get back to where we're seeing different things. And you got to find the thing that works for you because it's not going to be the same across the board. Yeah, that would be an interesting podcast.

I wonder if you can get people to like kind of cool their jets at the end and like shake hands and just bow to each other, you know, so they wouldn't get any. Yeah, no, yeah. I think I had a neighbor who, he was a veteran actually, had an idea for a podcast because he would always have great stories. I said, you should start a podcast. We'll do two veterans, 12 beers. And just progressively over the course, they just tell each other stories. Yeah, that would be, I bet you'd get something interesting out of that. I'm sure. I don't know if you guys go back and forth on this too much with, so I interviewed a couple people where, actually I had Stu McGill on one time and we went very, pretty much by like, kind of like how patients would ask questions.

So like, what do you think about like sleeping with a harder firm mattress and blah, blah, blah. So it was very, it was very like factual. And then I had someone else on and I just kind of went down their story and I tend to think people like storytelling a little bit better and just a couple bits and pieces of information here and there and hopefully they are a little bit more married to it, you know. Yeah, we found, like our initial interview, we very much get a story and that's great. And then we've tried to kind of double back because some of the people that we've interviewed, they're just, they're so full of knowledge.

And so we try to let them pick a topic. Like, what do you want to speak on? And we still get the stories out of that, but we also try and clean out a little bit more just information that people can apply. And it may be very specific to a population, but if we can find that and those people get to it, off we go. Right. You want to know how Brett Winchester became Brett Winchester, huh? Yeah, I mean, that story was interesting because we heard more about just like the general knowledge of things. But it'd be really interesting to go into like something deeper that he's interested in, you know, that he sees and whatnot.

I found out he really like super technobull. Yeah, true story on that. So then as I was reading you guys' story on your website, you kind of started off with the like morning, let's meet and drink coffee and try to solve the world's problems. What are the things right now that you're kind of thinking that these are topics that need to be hit just for general knowledge of for people's fitness and well-being? What's grinding your gears, Kyle? Yeah. So right now I'm in the midst of this functional medicine training, so that's kind of been my world lately. I mean, I think that's huge. You know, it's a little bit different than the fitness side, but actually in the newsletter today, I mean, CrossFit's kind of taking a stance against, you know, the current model of health care and just like the big industries of big soda and big pharma and all that, you know, and looking at chronic disease and all these things that can be prevented.

In my world right now, that's kind of, I guess, something that I've been focused on more obviously with this training, but I think a large impact can be made in that regard. And I think that's partly why I switched over in doing this training is because we saw a lot of patients that we weren't able to help in that realm. Like we could help a lot of people on the musculoskeletal side and rehab and all that, which is awesome. And I still love that. But, I mean, there's so many people with these underlying, you know, chronic issues, whether it's autoimmune or, you know, blood pressure, diabetes, you just, you name it, the list goes on.

And I think it's relatively simple changes and not saying that it's simple to make those lifestyle changes maybe for everybody, but if you can be a catalyst for that change, at least in my opinion, I feel like I can make a little bit more of a greater widespread difference, I guess. So on the note of clinically pressed theme of making complicated things simple then, what are the simple things so far that you're going to, they're already in your hat for these people? Simple things with that, I mean, diet is something simple but so freaking complicated. You know, I think maybe one of the things that gets made the most complicated, but you can just cut out crap, you know, like your processed foods and eat more whole foods, things that aren't processed.

I think that's a great place to start. Another one that I think is underlooked is sleep. You know, if you're, are you getting a good amount of sleep? What's the quality of that sleep? You know, are you on your, your electronics or your screens right up until you go to bed? Because that's going to affect the actual quality of those, you know, say you get seven hours and you're satisfied with that. Well, maybe your, your quality sucks. Um, and then just chronic stress, uh, it's, it's all around us. And I think that is an easy one to grow up. So, um, yeah, I don't know. I think, I think those are three pretty big areas that I didn't even touch on, you know, fitness and you could have arguments with individuals about the best workout is X, Y, or Z and get pretty nitty gritty on the details and even breaking it down into, you know, you should talk about arguments on squat, you know, like toes in or, or, uh, toes out or straight ahead.

And you can break down a lot of that, but let's just look at the big picture and say, well, in terms of fitness, let's just try to maybe incorporate some movements throughout the day. You know, just some sort of activity. It doesn't have to be hardcore and that, you know, maybe get in a, a nice 10 minute quick workout or something where you're incorporating some high intensity strength training or something. Uh, it's a very way to, very good way to implement, you know, some, some movement into your life. Mm-hmm. I always just tell them to drink massive amounts of water and make them get up to the bathroom and pee every hour.

That's my, that's my single act. You got no choice. Yeah, you got no choice at all. Or like, um, apparently they do this at, uh, police, um, departments, I guess, offices. So some of them have like multi, like everyone has a jar of candy and everyone's got different types of jars of candy. So people walk around and it's like they're collecting different types of candy. Um, maybe that's just the police department I know, but they're getting up and walking, but they're grabbing the candy. So. Yeah. I'm sure the person with the best candy is probably the most popular person there too. I think there's probably, there's a correlation, a clinical correlation.

Um, uh, what about you, Joel? Is there a, what is the one pressing thing right now that, that you think everyone should know about anything? Dog care, veterinary, hiking, lacrosse. Dog care, I just played a lot better, but, um, no, I think. Um, the basics are going to be the place to start. And I say that, which is, you don't necessarily need all of us. I feel like to get to a certain degree. Now there's going to become points where you're going to need that expert to help you get over things. But you look at kind of generalized low back pain, you know, nondescript, just that there, there are so many things that you can do individually.

Um, with people, whatever tool you want and probably get a lot of benefit from that. Now that may not take care of all of it, but I think you can make a significant change in that and doing so. And, you know, along with the nutrition thing, I, I used to kind of rail against the, the symbol of calories, inverse calories out. Uh, come back around to saying like, okay, that is your start point for it. Maybe cut out one thing that you know is contributing negatively to that. Typically, well, if anybody asks me, you know, don't drink your calories. So cut out whatever is just getting you a lot of extra stuff that's not actually making full and start there.

Make it simple. Make it a habit. Go from that. Then if you're not getting to your next one, then we can start getting fancy with different types of things. And, you know, are you going to intermittent fast? Are you going to do paleo? Are you, you know, all these things, um, kind of going on the exercise stuff for most people, you know, the best exercise program is the one you're probably not doing. Right. That big hole in their life. Right. And again, it doesn't have to be a lot. I used to be that guy that wants, wanted to be in the gym for two hours a day. Like that was what I did. Now, if I can't, if I can force myself to get in and do some heavy strength training three times a week for an hour, I'm impressed with myself.

I've got other things and other priorities, but I'm able to get enough with just being busy throughout my day and being on my feet and going around that I can keep myself in shape, but I don't have to do a ton of effort with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you said... Don't over, don't overcomplicate it. Yeah. I, I, you know, the thing, one thing I learned through interviewing people so far is that it really does seem like it's simpler than we think. And, uh, I was surprised actually with, um, I don't know if you guys were working concussions at all. I, I don't really, but, um... Yeah, quite a great one.

Don't worry. Yeah. So, because all that lacrosse, huh? Yeah. Um, but I didn't realize that, that, uh, when they changed the, uh, went from Zurich to, I think, Berlin and they started adding, just get them up sooner and move them, you know? And, uh, it just seems like movement is a simple thing, but when people are lame, they just lay around, you know? When, when they're, when they're, have diabetic neuropathy, they just lay around, you know? It's, so, I don't know. I personally come to the conclusion, and it might change, but, um, I think people need a little bit of a push. So, I, I, I call it inertia and friction.

You've got to push them through the inertia. That's our, that's our coaching perspective. But the friction point is all their, um, like, say they like Coke, and they've been told Coke is healthy for them. You know, grandma told them, and grandma was, she knew everything, you know? For all we know, we, we can't get them to drop the Coke because they, they believe that, you know? So, I think there's multiple entry points there with that, but just my thought, so, um. Yeah, I have a certain degree that listening to your body, too, comes back to your point of, like, you know, pushing them through and whatnot, but I don't know what the icing thing is, you know?

Sure, everybody wants to put a bag of ice on it, but how many people just get up and walk it off? I know. Rub dirt on, rub dirt on it with a thing. You can have a little bit of advice. You're right. Maybe, so, maybe they're, you're, they're hearing what they want to hear. Um, I don't know. I don't know what the ice thing, I mean, they're coming back with it now with all the cryotherapy places and stuff, so, they're making a push, man. Yeah, I think, I, I have this argument a bunch with my students because I like to play devil's advocate, which is always fun. Yeah, to me, there's multiple versions of ice.

There's the ice bag that you're going to put on, the swollen ankle, or the sore hamstring, or whatever it may be, and that's where I kind of come back and say, what are we actually accomplishing? Like, could we do it a better way that's going to help affect that person and potentially speed up the recovery process? Because to me, like, there's a lot of things that go into being a good clinician, but where you can kind of drop somebody in on your treatment to rehab process and kind of help guide them through without making anything worse and get them back, like, then you start talking about, like, a really good clinician versus, like, a great clinician that just has seen enough things and gone through enough patients that they can figure out that you don't always have to start with this one place and finish at this place.

There's a spectrum you can drop a man on. Now, with the cryotherapy, because we still have cold tubs, and I will still help people get into cold tubs and, you know, cryo chambers and stuff like that. We could talk on a whole different thing in terms of, like, recovery and nervous system and different things like that. I think there's some more merit to that. I used to think that you get in the cold tubs and you get this global flush. I'm fairly positive that's not exactly what actually occurs, but there's some other varied parts of it that come into play, even though it's still cold. So it's not necessarily I'm, like, anti-cold.

I just think with, like, a sprained ankle, just putting a bag of ice on it, saying, we'll see you tomorrow, is, for lack of a better description, kind of lazy. And there's a lot of things that we could do to help speed that process up to get the result that we want. Yeah, yeah. So we should travel down this route in a second. I'm going to ask Kyle this in a second, too. So other than ice, then, what is another thing in athletic training that you think just needs to go away without getting yourself in too much trouble? That's a good one. I think there's a lot of modalities that we rely on as a crutch.

And there's a time and a place, but there's only a couple that I truly like utilizing. And I had, there's a colleague of mine that works in the same conference. And, you know, he goes, if it's not rehab or my hands, I don't use it. I don't have the time, and I don't see enough benefit from it in order to accomplish something. Like, there's probably a time and a place for ultrasound, but there's other things that we could do that are better time spent than me sitting here for seven minutes, just moving in circles. Concentric. And not being able to do anything else. And for me in athletic training, and this is very much talking about myself, too, is getting a global picture of what's going on.

And just because their knee hurts, we don't just look at the knee. Like, if it's chronic, you know, kind of a chronic injury, or just very generalized, we get hyper-focused on the one joint, and we do every orthopedic test that we can come up with, and their knee still hurts. Well, what about their foot and ankle? What about their hip? Like, we got to just continue to expand our look at it, and not get so drilled into the one spot that hurts. And we need to stop being terrified of the spine. That's me included. Okay. Dr. Kyle, what you got there with this? What needs to go away in chiropractic?

Yeah, so... You can always edit this, so you can go as free as you want. Okay. All right. Well, I think that x-raying every patient should go away. Honestly, just, you know, seeing the patient and having them come in and just taking an x-ray just because that's what you do. I don't know if there's enough benefit in taking that x-ray. That's just my practice style, though. I don't take x-rays to determine what I'm going to adjust. But, yeah, I think that if it was Corey Campbell or Brett Westchester, one of those, talked about, you know, taking, you know, if you want to see how a hinge on a door works, you could either, you know, you could take a picture of it and look at it and get an assessment of what it looks like.

But if you want to truly see how that hinge works, you're going to, you know, open that door, open and close it, kind of, you know, actually move it to see. And so it's similar, I think, with an x-ray. Yeah, it can tell you some information structurally about what's going on. And maybe you can make some estimations on what's going on biomechanically based on maybe some of the changes. But you're not, it's a picture of a point in time. It's not, you know, actually seeing how that moves in relation, going along with what Joel said, in relation to the other parts of the body globally, you know, how are things functioning and moving.

But I think that would be a big one. And I'm not knocking x-rays or taking them when they're warranted, you know, certainly. But just an everyday patient coming in, getting an x-ray, I think that should go away. And then, I don't know, I treat a little bit more of the rehab side of things, like Joel said. So I don't think that if I just adjust a patient, I don't think I'm giving them my full service that I can offer. And granted, sometimes I think that is maybe all that's needed. I'm not knocking the adjustment because sometimes it can be super powerful in terms of what you can accomplish. However, I think that there's other tools that can be offered in addition to that that can improve patient outcomes.

And sometimes I think it can just be a downright band-aid. You know, if someone's just coming in and just getting their mid-thorassics adjusted, yes, it's going to feel good. But you could probably adjust them every single day in that same area just because of their posture and their daily activities. And that's going to be the same thing. You know, they can always use it. So patient education is going to be very important. If you know that the chiropractor that you're seeing only adjusts, then they're very forward with that and they're going to tell you that this is all that I do for treatment.

I think that is fine as long as the education is there and the disclosure is there. But I think that more could be done. And everybody's got their tools. And I'm not saying rehab is the only tool. Like, there's some other great options. But I try to be – I like to understand things. So I try to be very thorough with explanations and say, this is what I found. This is why I think it could be fixed. And this is, I think, the benefit of, you know, what you're going to see with that. Oh, I agree with both of you on all those, actually. So, yeah, I personally, like, I came from the route of doing – I started doing active release before I even got into school.

So I was very soft tissue-based and then learned adjusting and all this – I would categorize as passive care, which obviously has a place and time. But I started becoming a little bit more interested in, like, hmm, can we change this stuff just by changing loading patterns, you know? And I went to a DNS course as well. And I don't know if – Joel, did you listen to – did I send you 121? The podcast with Guido Van Reisen? I listened to it for your recommendation when I was scrolling through, just – not going to lie, I saw athletic training and said, hey, this is your – yeah, I agree. So I like the concept.

I got a whole bunch of, like, notes jotted down. I need to go back and just kind of do more investigating with the neurodynamics and dynamic systems theory and stuff like that. That's a realm I haven't dove into in my career. It's interesting shit. And I know that from when I started to experience a little bit more, I started realizing that people got better without me actually having to even do any manual therapy. And not to say there wasn't a time and place later, but just for patient empowerment, I found it more – it was interesting to me. And they can – there's stuff that they can do on their own.

But yeah, I should set you up with Guido. He's – as long as he's out in the country, he's – he's so easy to talk to. But he's one of the smartest dudes I've met. And his principles are very solid. And it was a game changer for me anyways. Yeah. Definitely have a list to go back and do some research on that one. And on a short list of, you know, whether connecting through you, which would be awesome. But, you know, reaching out to him and just, hey, would love to hear about it, highlight it. Because I'm also a glutton for punishment, just kind of start off as of today, like an athletic training chat podcast where we want to highlight athletic trainers.

And him being one, but working on like a completely kind of different realm than most people that I've interacted with would just be huge for just the profession to see something completely different. Mm-hmm. I know that from a – this – Kyle will probably resonate well with this. So partially, too, we'll use the DNS exercises and then load it. And so we'll use some of the – Guido's work with that. Not that he recommends those exercises, but it seems to change that attractor state principle anyway. So it's amazing results. So is this the type of discussion we expect from your podcast if everyone listens to Clinically Pressed?

Depends on the episode. Okay. How often do you guys do discussion-based versus interview style? We tried to get in some sort of a routine, and it just hasn't played out as well as we want to. We'll typically try and get a long-form one out, whether it be interview or more of a discussion base. You know, every other week we're trying to drop those in, plus put in just what we call either shorts or insights, kind of quick-hitting information, breaking something down. AJ, Dr. Jagelman, does a great job with, like, diets and breaking down kind of the thought process behind it and his things on that.

So we try and throw those in there. Every once in a while we try and get into what we call roundtable discussions where it's three of us where we're bringing in someone else and really kind of have a conversation on a topic and everybody kind of go in and build off of each other. So there is no perfectly set schedule, long story short. Okay. As we start to close up, is there anything you guys want to add that we didn't hit? I think the one that we kind of, again, come back to is, you know, what Kyle referenced it, like, all the resources that are out there, there's a ton. And everybody's got, you know, their own perspective, which is good.

But being careful where you're getting that information from, you know, we'd love to see clinical press turn into something big, just like anybody that starts a project probably would. But really, we started it off with the process of, you know, we can go learn something. Hopefully, we can provide some information back. We can answer questions that we get frequently. But now we can put them into a video or a podcast. So then now you've got a reference for those types of things. But in full disclosure, we make no money off the thing. Like, it's purely because we enjoy doing it and getting to meet people.

And, again, we'd love for it to fund itself to be able to take on to the next thing. But if it never gets to that, we're at a good spot where we can continue to do it. And it's just, you know, kind of a labor of luck, for lack of a better description. So when people are looking for information, be aware of that. Are you getting sold something? Is the health expert giving you all this stuff, but then on the back end of that, trying to sell you $400 worth of supplements for the month that you have to take in order to achieve your goals? Well, now is the information you've got really that good? Or they have that ulterior motive, I guess would be my biggest thing.

You've said that before. If what they're selling is the only thing that you need to achieve desired results, then you probably better dig a little bit more. Because, obviously, there's not just one thing that's, you know, unless they're trying to sell you water or something or air. I mean, raise the red flag if there's a monetary benefit in it for them. No, and I shouldn't say red flag. I shouldn't say red flag is a monetary benefit. But just maybe be a little bit more cautious in terms of, you know, what their interests are. Because, obviously, there's very good companies out there that are, you know, profitable.

Mm-hmm. Are you guys on – I know you're on iTunes. Are you on the other – what do people listen to podcasts on, on Androids? Is it still iTunes? Uh, I think it's Podcast Republic. There's a Podcast Addict. I think there's a – I think we're on Stitcher, Google Play. I have no idea if we're on Spotify. We run – I actually have to go check everything, too. SoundCloud, if you have that app, that's where we run through, so. Okay. And what episodes should everybody start on? Again, that really – it's depending on your flavor, what you want to look at doing. We've got a couple. We've kind of broken it down if you go to the website.

Kind of nutrition, wellness, clinical, and performance. So you can kind of go through and see the whole list within that. But within performance, we've, you know, talked to Division I strength coaches, ones that have won – been part of national championship teams. I've coached for years to a guy that's in Madison that does a lot of stuff. It was with the ARP wave. I don't know what it's switched over to now. But it's very much focusing on using electrical stimulation modalities to help increase performance. So it ranges from all over the place. I think, you know, episode one, as corny as it sounds, probably a good place to start because you're going to get, like, our own misconceptions and things that we, you know, would go back and change because we feel like we've grown in our stuff.

And I think that's probably a good place to get going with it. Cool. By the way, Joel, every time I'm listening – this is the first time I've seen you, obviously. When I'm listening to your voice in the podcast, I keep thinking of a brawny – like the brawny man. But the voice isn't matching right now. I really – I was just having this conversation. I could grow, like, a full beard with it. I would. But it would have looked terrible, and I'd probably get divorced. So, unfortunately. We can put you in a flannel jacket, at least, maybe. There you go. Well, right on. Thanks so much, guys, for being on.

So it's clinicallypress.com, and they just search clinicallypress and all that stuff. Yep. And we'll have links to everything else that you want to follow us on. Right on. Cool. Then I'll just stay right there one sec. I'll just close up on here and come right back. That's good. Yeah, thank you. All right, guys. Thanks so much for being on. Joel, thank you. Dr. Kyle, thank you. AJ, I'll meet you one day. One day soon. So if you guys are looking for the show, again, clinically pressed. It will be in the show notes. Go on there and subscribe. Pick a couple that you like. I actually like the one that they did recently.

And by recently, I mean as of now, it's kind of early February. It was on kind of how to work together in a multidisciplinary setting. And so that was interesting to me because it's something that is a challenge. And I mentioned in the podcast. So it was interesting to me. But they've had a lot of great guests on like Greg Knuckles and so on. So go on there. Check it out. Subscribe. And lastly, if you guys have not already, please review this podcast. The reviews help me a ton. Not only with just learning what you guys like and don't like. But it helps let iTunes and Google and all these places that rank sites or rank podcasts, it helps them know that this is a valuable one to you, that you've learned something from it and that you want other clinicians and patients to start listening to this.

It's hard to really get good information out there to the public because it doesn't always rise to the surface. So if you want this podcast to rise to the surface, please review it. All right. Just scroll down. Do it on iTunes right there. It doesn't have to be long. It'll probably take you literally two minutes. I don't even care if you do spell check. I don't spell check my work half the time. But yeah. So also too, if you guys have found me on Instagram, it's Performance HB. Also that on Facebook too. I tend to answer the Instagram ones a little bit quicker. So if you want to reach out to me, just let me know what you like about the podcast.

Every time someone reaches out to me, I think, damn, I'm really glad I'm doing this podcast because sometimes you don't know who's listening. And I know there's a lot of people out there listening. But you don't always hear what they think. So I would love to hear from you guys. And I pretty much answer every single time. It might take me a couple hours, but I answer every single time. So I will talk to you guys soon. See you next week. Leave people better than how you found them. And Dave and Eagle Scout. See you guys.