Coaching Ballroom Dancers: Cues, Knee Pain and Training Cycles

We know about and we discuss the actions, obviously. Like, what we call CBM is, for you, this contralateral arm movement. And so we know about it, we talk about it in a way that, you know, once you bridge the gap, you're talking about the same thing. But still, there's a tendency, and that's when you're specifically talking about movement mechanics with a dancer or with another coach. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales.

Hey, everyone. It's Dr. Sebastian Gonzales again on the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for being part of the movement. Movement. This is an interview today with actually a dance coach or instructor, mainly for ballroom dancing. His name is Ikaika Dowsett. And as you're going to see, I'm terrible, terrible with different names than the American names like Bob and Raymond and stuff like that. So I hope I hope I get the name right every time I say it, Ikaika. So I think as clinicians, you're going to get a lot from this. Doctors, PTs, DCs, ATCs, coaches, and so on. We're going into quite a bit on communication and movement and just management of people.

And it's a very easy to follow podcast and very easy to follow communication that we're having here. And it's a good dialogue one. And I was interviewed on his podcast actually by him. And it was great. It was fun. If every interview can go just like that, you can give that as my perfect main job because it's easy. It's not work. It's just hanging out. So as you're going to see, we have a good dialogue with it. And it's very easy to follow again. So if you are a lay public or a dancer, I apologize. There's a couple cussing in there by me. So if you're offended by that, then maybe you should not listen to it.

But I think you're going to get a lot from it still. So now before we go into the interview, let me share a little bit about myself. Okay, so I had this other thought amazing idea. And obviously, I'm never going to make this again. I've already played with coffee business and side business before. I'm going to stick to the stuff I'm probably best at here. So I was thinking that you know what is kind of useless is that we have knives and forks and spoons. And remember back in the day when we had more sporks, we had like the spork or the fork knife, or sorry, the fork spoon, but obviously not a knife on it.

Knife would be a little bit of an issue with this hang up. But I think someone, an engineer can figure this thing out. Why don't we just make a try tool, make a fork knife spoon and kind of use our teeth, mainly what they're intended to do. And they're intended to rip food off of whatever food it is. So you just stab the thing, use these sporks. But then the problem is that these things might be plastic, and they might break and bend. Plus, we're in the anti-straw movement. So why don't we get rid of those straws there? As well as these plastic utensils, which are just obviously going to be single-time use, thrown away.

And then they come in packages of two and three anyways, forks, knives, spoons. So what a waste. So I was thinking, why don't we mitigate this whole thing here? Why don't we do a single utensil, make it a spork knife spoon, and make it real fancy. You make a metal one. And I remember before, I've seen people, let's just say people with their own chopsticks. They come up with their own chopsticks. They bring them out of this little box, this chopstick holder, and they're so proud with them. And they get down with their food with just those chopsticks. And then they wipe them off, take them to the bathroom, put them back, and they take them when they leave.

So they reuse the darn thing. So I was thinking, these metal sporks, how cool would it be if everyone's got these little hipster-like sporks, metal spork spoons, that they actually put in their back pocket. Maybe it comes in a nice little handkerchief, kind of the one you give, maybe like a collie dog, or maybe like a sheep-herding dog, because you want to call them Chuck or something like that. So you get these little things, and you keep them, carry them around. And I think, when they're dressed up real classy, when they're delivered really classy, kind of like the iPhones, right? You get an iPhone, you look in the box, you're like, holy shit, this box is so nice that I don't want to get rid of the box.

The packaging is what sells those things. So I think with packaging, we can make these spork spoons, spork knives, really sexy. And people are going to be so proud to bring them out and show people that they have the new version. We're going to do the X, we're going to do the 6S, and so on. It's going to be so cool. So anyways, someone can have that idea. I'm sure if you go to China and get these stainless steel spoons, they're going to be on the cheap. You sell those things for $20, you've got a lot of money. And you know what you can do? Kind of like use the Tom's model. So Tom's, every time they make a shoe, they say that they're going to give a shoe to a person in need.

So you can actually take the spork. And every time someone buys a spork, an overpriced metal spork, then actually they give a meal to someone in need. Huh. How about that? So people love to buy off emotions. So you feed someone in need, I'll buy metal spork all day. Here we go with the content. Everybody, can you welcome on Ikaika. Ikaika. Yeah. We talked right before this introduction that I would not get your name right, although we've already spoken for a long time. Ikaika. Ikaika, yeah. Dowset. You know, funny, actually, before you came on this morning, I was looking up, I was looking up videos to see if I could find you on YouTube as well.

Oh. And I just found this one, it was just, it was a kid, it was a football player, and I clicked on it, and I could tell they were speaking pigeon, too. So I'm like, oh, this so is Hawaiian. Yeah. That wasn't me, though. I don't know. I couldn't see through the helmets, so you don't know. Yeah. My football days were limited to Pop Warner as a, I think, a nine or ten-year-old. Yeah. Well, that's about the age group of this. I think the cameras probably revealed that it wasn't you. The camera's too good. Yeah, definitely not. Definitely not me. My dad would have been a little more proud, though, if I had played football instead of becoming a baller dancer.

Well, actually, let me make sure to frame to make sure that everyone kind of knows why I'm having you on here. So we actually spoke before, and I was on your podcast, and it kind of went through that. I realized that there's a lot of things I think you can share with movement providers and clinicians and just kind of from a coaching standpoint of working with dancers. And you work specifically with ballroom, right? Yeah, mostly. I mean, I do see a lot of dancers that they come in from different styles. So, but usually by the time they get to me, they're getting out of one of those other styles, ballet and other partner dancing styles, like a social dance, like a salsa or a West Coast swing or jazz or something like that.

But, or, with my own couples, I will send them out to study some of those other styles as sort of a cross training to their ballroom. But with me, we're mostly developing either their ballroom dancing or we're doing strength training on the side or something like that. Yeah. Okay. So, just tell everybody a little bit about what you overall do right now. I know we're going to get into how you dance a little later. Yeah. But, like, what's your whole thing? Like, who do you work with right now? And I know you've got the podcast going. What's the whole purpose of that and so on? Well, right now I'm working mostly with amateur competitive ballroom couples.

And I sort of like to hit the whole gamut, the whole range of dancers at all levels and all ages. Although, I've toned down how many kids I work with because that's a whole other can of worms. But I used to do mostly kids. And, in fact, kids are good. They, for the most part, listen and they try their best. I find the variability in talent and coordination and focus, let's say, is probably bigger than it is with adults. Like, adults, you know, even if they lack some of the physical talent side, most of them are educated up to a certain level so you can reach them there. But, with kids, you never really know what you're going to get.

And sometimes you get something like kids who are immigrants and even English isn't really there. So, that's a whole other challenge. But it's mostly the parents that make life difficult. Oh, really? Yeah. You're working with kids. Well, you have a lot of people thinking that their child is the most perfect snowflake and the best thing ever out there. And they don't like hearing anything to the contrary. Although, they usually wouldn't hear it from me. But, over time, often, each parent camp comes to think that their kid is the talented one in the partnership. And they then, that sort of pride that they get to causes problems and, you know, the things slowly disintegrate from there.

And that's, I would say, probably at one point when I was really doing a lot of competitive couples that were kids. I think I had maybe 15 at a time going training kids. And of that group, maybe two or three really went the distance, you know, like would, you know, medal at the national championships and stuff like that. And not because they were even more talented. In fact, the couple that ended up doing the best over time at first was probably the least talented. But the parents got in the way of the training process, you know. It's interesting. I'm working with kids less. And these days, I do still have some.

But I've been enjoying really working with adults because, well, I was missing that angle. So I work with competitive adults from beginners, like some people. I've taught them their very first ever. We do mostly private lessons. I'll do a group class once in a while at Stanford because I teach at Stanford. But most of the people who are competing, you work one-on-one. Well, one-on-two because it's a couple. Do you ever switch their couples out, by the way? You're like, this one person is messing this other person up too much. Oh, man. It would probably reflect badly on me as a coach if I said that I had an agenda for individuals in the couple.

But there is a point in the life cycle of a couple. Let's say most couples on average will last two or three years. You have some that really go for, they never split up, you know. And then you have some that split up. I had a couple just two days ago. I got the final confirmation that they were splitting up. They were together two months. And it's really a shame because this is right after they had sort of a big win. But finding a dance partner in this way is harder than finding a wife. Right. So, or husband, I'm sure. But on my side of things, it's harder than finding a wife because, I mean, I don't know.

I'm not married, so I don't really, maybe I'm not the best person to ask. But there's so many different qualities and variables that you're looking to fill. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's imagine you meet someone and you're like, hey, we're going to try this dance thing out. And you're checking to see what height they are. And I think height matters when people are dating. But for us, it's very important. More and more important as time has passed than it used to be. Back 20 years ago, you would see some couples with more than a, you know, five to seven inch height difference. But over time, as power has entered the equation more and more, and what we call shaping, like usage of the spine and creating certain actions, having a couple that's more balanced size-wise has become pretty important.

So you will rarely see a couple with a massive height difference anymore. And they're getting closer and closer to maybe a two, probably a three to five inch difference max, ideally, so that when the followers and heels, that she is roughly the same height as the man. But no, when I switch out couples, it's just when I know they're going to split, I kind of want to avoid downtime between partnerships. So, yeah. It's so funny. It's kind of like an injury. Oh, it's much worse. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not much worse than a career-ending injury, but people, when they're injured, they still train.

It actually builds some sort of good faith in the couple, really, because they're happy to know that their partner is going to wait for them and that. But splitting up and then not having someone to dance with and practice with and train with pretty soon after is the kiss of death because you get demoralized and you can't do this on your own so much. So it's the number one thing that ends people's careers is I have one person that I teach. She's actually a high-level ice dancer. She mostly trains on the East Coast because that's where they train for that. And I think she's two or three spots off of the Olympic team.

And she right now doesn't have a partner. Like, her partner decided to stop and she's having a hell of a time finding another guy. And at that level, you know, the highest level of ice dancing. I hope it's ice dancing and not, what is it called, pairs? I don't know which one it is. It's the one where they do the actual, you know, sort of ice versions of the ballroom nests. Yeah, it's like they're dancing on ice. Yeah, yeah. But she can't find a partner right now. And she's super high-level, super dedicated, very, like, she's a quality girl. And it looks like she's going to, you know, if it doesn't, if no one shows up for a while, it's, I mean, how long do you wait?

How long do you wait when you are just approaching, you know, that phase where you would be getting out of college, looking for a job and all that? I mean, do you skip that phase in life just because you want to wait forever for a partner? I don't think so. I think you sort of move on. And so with the ballroom couples, too, ideally you have them move on to a different prospect pretty soon after they split to keep the momentum going. Because when they don't, they typically find the next thing or they just get, they quit, they lose that fire in their belly. When you can't find one really quickly, then do you ever step in and become that intermediate?

I know you probably can't with ice. Can you with ice dancing? That's a great question. So we have a, we do have a. You're like a rebound guy. Oh, man. You don't know how appropriate that is right now. They, we have a division, a competitive division. In fact, it's, it's the biggest division in America anyway, called Pro-Am. I think they do this in golfing, too, where you have a celebrity maybe play a golf game with a real pro, right? And they sort of have a total score against other pro and amateur couples. And so we do that a lot. And it's, it is pretty huge over here. And for instance, I do have some students of mine that are single women.

They come in for their dance lessons and then we will go and compete against other students who dance with their teachers in this pro-am division. That's huge. And so since that's a, that's a way of existing in the ballroom world, yes, when my amateur couples split, oftentimes with the, the follower of the couple, I will dance with them more often throughout the week, you know, than, than I would normally if they had a partner. And sometimes over the years, I would even, you know, step in and compete on this pro-am level with the follower just to, you know, again, keep things going because it's important, you know.

And also sometimes it's fun, like it's, it's, it's, it's an odd thing. So dancing is very specific and very technical and there's a, a personal bent to it, right? You have two coaches. It's not like sprinting. I mean, maybe it is like sprinting, but you're, you don't have a clock to beat. And I don't know if different sprinting coaches techniques for training very wildly, but you can really find wild variations between coaches and ballroom dancing, even though we sort of want the same thing at the end. But when you've taught someone from day one, like, let's say this, this one student of mine, I taught her her very first lesson, I think when she was seven or six.

And I taught her, you know, I still teach her, I've taught her now for what, 13 years maybe. And she went on to win multiple U.S. titles. She did better than I did when I was competing, which I guess isn't a coach's job, isn't it? Right? Like you want to, if you can get someone to do better than you did, then that's sort of the holy grail. I think, I think it's easy to teach people to do sort of well. You can get them to do as well as you, that's even better, but to be producing people better than yourself, I think is the best thing a coach can do. Because not only does that mean that you've done your job teaching, but you also push the field forward.

Yeah. Because if anyone could only ever get someone up to their level, no one would, like, we'd never progress. So anyway, so she, her partner graduated high school and he was a year, I think, older than her. And so he went off to college. And that year that she was partnerless, I danced with her a lot. We did a few competitions. And I'm dancing with someone who does everything, every little thing in the way that I think it should be done. Because all the information in the head is from nearly all of it. It's from me. And it's like I had created the perfect partner for myself. Did you think, I'm going to go into, I'm going to go into competition again.

You know, it crossed my mind a few times. I thought maybe it's time to come out of retirement and do some competition. So it was great. It was great. Yeah. To fill in that way. Um, but, uh, it, it does happen, uh, often. But the best thing is to just find them. Someone else who's, you know, ready to compete. Okay. That's what they do. Yeah. Um, I didn't think we'd get into all that. And that's, that's good. I learned so much about ballroom right now. And, uh, just, just as like a, as a coach, um, I know that with there, I had this one, uh, I don't want to say, I don't like saying older, but I'll say older, um, dancer come in and, uh, some of her, some of her aches and pains.

And to me, like, so I had to actually dance with her a little bit in the office and she had a, and I suck. And I was like, what is your movement? What are you doing? And what does your partner have you do? And so I would just give her a firmer feedback or a firmer hand. Um, and she didn't have any pain with movement. And I was thinking, man, it would be, uh. Interesting. It, yeah. And because she had a, she had better bracing, I think. So her, she had a back issue. So the twisting was an issue. And, um, I was like, wow, it'd really be great to have her partner in here to, to maybe firm up a better feedback.

Oh, yeah. At least for a little bit of time. And, but anyways, I think it's interesting. You get actually, you can actually get there and dance with them. Like I, I couldn't do that. Uh, well, I mean, I mean, you must, you must, um, you, you, you've got some sports background, I assume. Mm-hmm. What, what, what did, what did you play? I played baseball. Um, I dabbled with a lot of other things, but baseball is my thing. Did you, what, what, what position were you? Outfield. I pitched for like five years when I was young and I was obviously bad and I wasn't that serious, but it was like, you know, little league.

And then first couple of years of, um. Is that where you got your arabesque to fall with you? Yeah. That's when they decided I need to stop pitching and start dancing. It was the most embarrassing. Like this guy keeps doing an arabesque at the end. What the hell's going on here? He can't feel the ball, but he's got, he looks really pretty at the end. Yeah. Oh, look at the way he flicks the wrist. It's. So, um, when, when you, I mean, so you must have baseball players come in. I don't. I mean, I have some, but actually it's funny when you were talking about the kids. Um, I also too have, I have, I have trouble with, I probably over communicate and make a little bit too technical for kids.

But really when the parents bring in the kids since they're minors, I'm explaining it so the parent can hear that there, there's the reason why the kid should come in and we can address this thing. So, but usually at the, after the end of the first one, like it's a long appointment and I'll tell the kid just directly, I said, I'm going to shut up next time. Okay. It's not going to be as boring because I can see your eyes rolling back in your head. Yeah. Just, just trust me. We're going to do the, do the right thing. But since there's two parents now, sometimes the other parent will bring it in.

Now I got to talk again because the parent has questions. So, um, the reason I'm saying this is because it, I, like I do well with the kid one-on-one, but in our profession, we're not really allowed to, to treat kids one-on-one. The parents got to be there. And then there's the three-way conversation, which is challenging because it's speaking different languages. So I do have, I do have some though, but I like golfers are great. They're almost the same. Yeah, I bet. So because you have experience, uh, swinging a stick at a ball, right? So many things, or in tennis's case, a stick with a net, uh, trying to hit it over a net, hitting a ball with a net, hit over a net.

Yeah. I mean, these guys could also be professional butterfly catchers. I feel like if that net was a little softer, uh, they got to land a little softer too. They got to be, sorry, sorry, tennis players. I didn't mean to say you should all be catching butterflies, but you would be good. I'm sure. So, uh, they, uh, you, you must have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics involved. Right. And I'm sure you, you get up and sort of demonstrate and you can sort of see where their form is going wrong and not just like form, but let's say the sort of bracing or the sort of stability that they need in the process, uh, it's much more familiar for you, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So do you, do you have, I know I'm the one not supposed to be asking questions, but I'm just curious. Oh no, you can, you can back and forth. I actually like when there's a double interview. Yeah. I, I agree. Anyway, this conversation's better. So when you, if you're, if you have a golfer come in and I'm not sure where the most common place, I have a friend who golfs a lot. He's got like shoulder and back problems. Mm-hmm. Um, he also dances though, so I'm not sure which is from which, but I assume, would you happen to have like a golf club in your place where you. Sometimes I, I have, if I don't think that the movement is going to be like just tear him in half.

Like, uh, I had a guy recently come in that he had, he had a back pain with golfing with his, uh, I think it was, it was his follow through actually. So I was like, you know, first, the first day, um, I usually like to have them test, apply, retest just to see if there's actually an improvement. And if there's not, then we carry on and go to the next thing. But if you find something that sticks, then, um, and I, I try to, to get them to, test something that is not a stretch or some type of weird movement that they're really not in because they can make themselves into a pretzel. Like, oh, it hurts when I'm doing this.

I'm like, you would never do that. Let's just do something that you're going to be doing. And that's when I'm going to golf club. So I'll just have them go out and sometimes they'll have clubs in their car and then we'll use that and then be like, oh, it does feel better, you know? And, uh, but also at the same time, I feel like this, when you're probably doing the same thing is the more you see them move, the more you see, you can connect the dots and collect data points and figure out where you need to implement. Right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So that's all I, all I do. I mean, my sessions with people, they, they start off with, you know, you start off the session and you get the news, you know, and then you, you get the, what did you do?

I'm not sure how much you know about, um, software development. Oh, a shit ton. Yeah. So I can't wait to see how much you know about software development. Yeah. I know some actually. Uh, I, I was into that before I got into ballroom seriously. Uh, but I, there's this process called scrum and it's just this short process of you, you start off by saying, uh, what did you do last week? Uh, what are you going to do next week? And what are the red flags that are getting in your way? Essentially, that's the process. And so we'll start and I'll say, well, what did you do last week? What did you do in your last practice?

And they'll tell us, you know, and you know, on our last lesson, you suggested we do these sorts of things. We practiced that, um, and we ran into these hurdles and, or walls in some cases, we were able to get through this. We couldn't get through that. And, um, we think that we need to sort of spend more time on this next thing, this other aspect, because we can't actually do it. So they're, they're choosing the path that they want to take that day. They, they have a, yeah, they often, well, they are during practice, they, they're hitting something and there's a real physical discomfort when you're trying to move in harmony with someone and you're, someone's off balance or someone is not producing, let's say power in the same direction.

I mean, you have two bodies that are supposed to be, well, I use the term loosely glued together and something as simple as you just driving forward off of one foot and your partner, I mean, forward, like you're standing on your left foot, you drive straight forward onto your right foot and the partner's standing on their right foot, driving straight back on their right foot or their left foot. And if that backward drive, if instead of straight backward, it's sort of diagonally back, this can cause massive problems in the partnership. And it feels really just unpleasant to be pulled around and, you know, you have another hundred something pounds attached to you and one goes off balance and you have this frame that loads the deltoid in a weird way and you start recruiting from the trap to help support, you know, the partner and it just, it just sucks.

So, so we go through that, right? And, and that's of course their highest priority usually is removal of pain. Like we get these pain points out because it's really not enjoyable, but depending where we are in the competition cycle, you know, like in the year. So if, if it's, um, let's say we just finished the big championship, uh, maybe it's the summer. Sometimes you have to allow for those things to keep going, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll then put them through. I'll say, okay, well, let me see what the dance, what it looks like, you know, so they'll, they'll get in, start dancing a little bit and I'll have a look.

And if it's not super pressing, like it doesn't look like someone's going to get injured or if it looks like it's just going to take a long time, you have to consider where you are in the year, because if it's something like building muscle, you know, like you need to build stronger legs or you need to build a stronger back, you need a lot of time for that. Like muscle's not going to grow overnight and you, you don't want to be in a, in a, in a building phase two months before your national championship, right? You want to, you want to get all this, if you need mass, for instance, you want to get this mass in you and then it's going to take you time to learn how to coordinate that mass, right?

Like you have new muscle, you need to figure out how to use it. You're a little heavier. Your back is a little stronger now than other parts of your back and you need to learn how to drive the new machine. So sometimes I'll put the things that they want to work on, on the side and say, we'll get to that at some point, but we really need to focus all of our effort right now on this particular aspect because we won't have time later and you're going to need the time. Then we'll, we'll do a lot of, you know, if it's that part of the year, we'll do a lot more things that are the sort of long cycle processes, building muscle, choreography, things that are going to take a lot of sets.

And I mean, sets like anywhere from sets in the gym, but sets to cycles of repetition of the choreography so that the mind doesn't have to think about it so much when they are on the competition floor. It should be very second nature, but you're talking of thousands and thousands of repetition of that choreography so that they can use whatever processing power they have on the day left, not to try and remember their routine, but to navigate, not hit other couples and to focus on the quality of their performance or whatever else they need to do. They can't be stressing out about that. So those sort of things take a long time.

And so that's, that would be a situation where with a couple, you'll have to put the thing that they want to do sort of on the side and then come back to it later. So do they ever, they ever fuss about you putting those off to the side and they're like, well, I'm here, I'm paying you. I want you to show me this. Yeah. No. Not, not, not at this point. I hope I'm going to send you one. Yeah. I'm going to send you a difficult phantom person. Maybe earlier in the career, I mean, I'm sure it's like this for everyone. You sort of take the business you can get and you don't really have the reputation where people come in already with trust because they know who you are or, and that's, it's a harder place to be, of course, because you get some clients that you don't want and you, and you have to try and help them, but you can tell that because they're paying you, they want things to go a certain way.

And you know yourself that this is not the best way to do things, right? And so you have this weird choice of, as a coach, do I direct this person or really try and force this person to do what I know is best process wise, or do I just make them happy? Now with you, you're really in charge of their health. So the promise at the end is a pain-free experience. It's probably a really good incentive to listen. Probably. But I do have some people who have their own agenda. And these days when it, when it's not in line with, you know, what I, what I, what I know is best for them, if they, if they tell me their goal is to, you know, compete and they have their own agenda, I usually fire them.

So I just, or I'm going to fire them. That sounds bad. You, uh, breakups. So I send them to another teacher, you know, it's, which is funny because once you, usually once you say that, I say, it sounds like I may not be the right teacher for you, but I can recommend you to this other person. I think they'd be a great match. Yeah. Nearly all the time. They immediately go, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Wait. Uh, yeah. I'll, I'll do that thing. You're suggesting just don't fire me. Yeah. I, I have a friend actually that he, um, I've mentioned this a couple of times on this, on this show, but, uh, I usually don't, I don't tend to like when, when people call and they say, can you do this?

And actually had a person call recently and they're like, I want you to do this for this. And I'm like, I need to look at you first, but if it's, if it's not needed or if I don't think it's merited, I, I don't think I should do that with you. And throughout the conversation, usually they persist because they believe that is what will help them. Um, I have a friend that he's like, he's like, I'm like, you, do you take those people and do exactly what they ask? He's like, yep, I do it. And, and, uh, but he does it mainly for the sake of giving, getting the opportunity to change their mind over, over a couple of times and building a little trust.

And I was, I was against it for a lot of years, but, um, now that I feel like I've learned a little bit more with, uh, letting people, people got to, they have a belief system of, of what they think is best for them. And then you kind of got to meet them there and then drag them the rest of the way. But if they're being resistant still, then I think I would probably dismiss them as well. But something we have in common, I think in, in both of our fields is we can help the people only so much on the day, right? Like you, you're, you're trying to drive a shift in process. Uh, and I think in both of our cases in the way they move.

Right. And the, the, don't give a man to fish, you know, teach him how to fish. Well, ideally anyway, is, is really applicable here. And, uh, making these small nudges so that over time you get people to be much more effective on their own, uh, is really the game, or at least it's the game for me. Right. Yeah. And so do you find that there's, I mean, certain people just come in, they're the motivated sort, right? And then they come in with notepads, you know, they, they take notes. Like, can I get a video of you saying that, you know, there, you can tell they're already knowing what they're going to need when they leave in order to have some sort of process to really do the work.

And then you have other people that are just clueless, you know, they don't know that it's going to be hard or that it's going to be, it's going to require this and that. So I'm not sure if you have a process that works for you for, or follow through once they leave. Um, I, well, I, I like to have them back within, within a week and I tell them that it, I mean, it's a, it's a much longer appointment than, than like a normal one that you might see me, you know, months and years down the road. And it's kind of like what you said earlier about like, okay, what did we do? What did we learn? What do you want to improve on?

And so there's more direct one-on-one attention. I, I think the second time that I like to do with people because I want to see what they've retained and I want to see where we can go from there. So, um, I don't necessarily, I mean, sometimes I'll email them and, and, and see how they're doing, but, but at the same time, I think that, um, starts a conversation that I, I don't really have any control to, to, to get them the stuff that they need. They say, they might say, well, how do I do this one exercise? Oh, this one's been bothering me. Should I stop? And my real answer, if they were in person is let, it'd be like, let's, let's look at this.

And then you, you look to see what the movement faults are and maybe how they're triggering. And then we go from there. Um, the other ones, it's just kind of like, uh, yeah, go ahead and stop. Cause I can't do anything with them. You know what I mean? But, uh, cause we mean when they're out and they're, they're doing a wrong movement and they're saying, what do I do? Yeah. Well, like usually, stop, do something else. So like, I guess then how would the, how, how would you correct if, if they were dancing together and you're like, they made me call you up the next day and they're like, look, this feels really awkward.

She's, she's, uh, not following me. Yeah. Then, I mean, it's very general, but a movement based thing. So you can't really see it unless you're there. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. So what I do with, there, there's some couples I work with that aren't even in the country. Um, and others that are just, you know, in New York, let's say. And I mean, I, for me, I'm sort of a workaholic. So I like doing this stuff too. It's my body's exhausted from being in the studio all day and then I'll get home and I'll take these, these consultations, right? And there's, there's a lot of apps on your phone.

Um, technique is one of them. Coach's eye is one of them. And I'll ask them to just have someone record them going through that figure or this, this movement that they're having trouble with or have them dance. And at this point, I'm able to tell quite a bit just by watching a video of them dance, right? And then I can load it into my app. I can slow it down, you know, I can see where things start to get weird and you can actually, uh, you know, the old football commentary where they would stop it and then draw a line. So he's going to go here. He's going to go here. And then it's going to get into the end.

Like John Madden. Yeah. John Madden. Boom. That's a great game of football. He's not getting up from that one. Yeah. He's not getting up from that one. Yeah. One team mows over and you score the points and that's how you win. Is John Madden still alive, by the way? I hope he is because he was hilarious. Yeah. I knew he drove the, he was ridiculous with that Madden bus. I think it's because he couldn't fly or he didn't like to fly. I see. He was, he's a legend. So, um, anyway, you can do all that. Right. And I'll, I'll get it. I'll talk over, you know, pause it in their video. This is where the problem is.

Right. And here's when your weight change is wrong or your, the arm is dropping into a bad, you're getting into a compromised position where the humerus is swung behind the back instead of staying slightly forward and in front of the body and blah, blah, blah. And then I'll, you know, send it back over. And oftentimes, way, way more often than you would think it, it, it really helps the problem. But that takes time. Right. And like, it's, there's only so much if you want to balance work in life that you can do of that, but you, I can still be somewhat effective. I guess, I guess that's, the difference is, is that I mostly work with people that I've been working with for a long time.

You know, most, I, I do take some new couples every year, but for the most part, everyone's been with me for, you know, some over a decade. And so I know how they move. They know what I've said and it's, it's, you know, there's small corrections here and there. If it was someone that I had only seen once or twice and I knew I wasn't going to see, you know, I guess if you, if you've done your job, you never see them again. Right, right. I've done my job. I see them constantly for the next decade. Yeah. We're in a bad, we're in a bad business over here. But I think you're right with the, it's your, when, when I've had people for, for a little bit of time and we've had this conversation about just like maybe common language, common cueing, uh, it's much easier.

And I, I have had people, uh, mention things like, Hey, this was bothering me. What do I do? I'm like, well, remember that one thing, do that. And they're like, Oh, that is better. Thanks. Um, but you guys have, it sounds like you've developed a common language or an understanding. Yeah. And well, particularly with me, I, I really endeavor to, I really respect the other, the other disciplines, let's say like, and I mean, from sports that they've been studying for, I mean, hundreds of years, you know, things like sprinting and, you know, weightlifting and like the Olympic sports and there's so much knowledge there that really can be directly applied to what we do.

Um, in, in some pieces like, you know, uh, uh, hammer throwers or shot putters, you know, they, they really work on a lot of torque. And that's an interesting thing that, that when a lot of people, other coaches and dancing, they talk about things like a spin or, or a pivoting action, they tend to use words that are not the same sort of words that you would find in other, in other movement styles. And so, and I think we, in our field, I think it needs to get more toward that where we're talking about fundamental things that across the board, the body does, um, we can still talk in words that are sort of abstract, like feel that you're spinning on a thing, you know, try to pretend you're a top.

Well, you're an arts, you're the arts, right? Yeah. And that, that's the hard part is that sometimes you can break through to people. These people are typically very talented, right? And you can tell them something abstract and they can convert it into something that looks good. It is sort of a guess and check method because they'll try three or four things. You'd be like, that's the one, right? The problem is the student will take that later and think, oh, the technique is to, uh, think I'm a top or spin fast. Right. And then because you don't have it broken down into some sort of mechanical process, it's hard to adjust as they improve or as you need more out of it.

Right. Like at this point in the range, we need to be doing this. So I spent a, I spent a, um, short digression. I spent a week at the Olympic training center, uh, with one of my couples in Lake Placid one year. And we were there because the world championships were coming up and a lot of the youth couples across the country, the top two in each of the levels were flown there with the coaches to study with the Olympic trainers. And it was, I think it was 2015, 13, I want to say right before the 2014 winter, um, Olympics and the bobsled team was there. It was, it was a really crazy time to be there.

I mean, it was, you think you're trading seriously because you know, like these kids were the national champions that you, you, you, you, you, but there's so much, there's so much more you can do when you, when you see the people really at the top. I mean, do you remember that, um, that scene in Rocky four? Have you seen Rocky four? Oh, I, I, I do not think I've actually can tell you the storyline of Rocky four, but I can, I can guess it. Well, he fights a guy and wins. I will tell you that. Yeah. And he fights a, he fights, um, a Russian. He get beat up a little bit. He got, yeah. I have seen this one.

Yeah. He's like, he's like a piece of metal, you know, like the Russians are just wailing on him and he just, Rocky won't go down. Oh, is it kind of like Lionheart Van Damme? Something like that. And the Russian though, we had this idea where the, there's scientists, uh, in the lab with the Russian, he's on the, he's on the treadmill and he's running and he's like this perfectly angled face and he's just buff and they've got like syringes coming in and out of him, testing this and injecting him with that. And they've got a, you know, the, the VO two max measuring him and he's like this lab rat and they're doing every scientific procedure to get him prepared for the fight.

And Rocky is, uh, this is like up in the mountains in the snow, punching trees, like dragging, like chopping firewood and like chasing chickens. And this is his training process. And so when I got to this Olympic training center, I learned that, no, we're like the Russians in that movie. Yeah. They wake up, they test the, like the neuro capacity or the, the, the, the speed of the, of the mind of the athletes first by putting their head in this machine. They have to follow these little red dots with their eyes. And if their eyes are too slow at watching the dot, they realize today's a bad day for training and they do something else.

But they have these, uh, force plates where they test the, the power that they can generate out of a squat, for instance. And depending on what sport they're doing, they know that in that sport, this range in the squat is more important to have power. Like when you're driving in the beginning, you know, in the bobsled, you have to push it off. You need to have power in a certain range. And it's just crazy. The sort of things you can look for in that way. Um, but I do think the vernacular in our business anyway, it needs to be, needs to be better and talk in the way that the much more deeply studied fields and even the medical field talk about movement because that would allow us to integrate and to work with someone like you, you know, if, if instead of saying, uh, CBM, which is the word we use for, I think you mentioned it was called ipso lateral movements, like of the arms.

Is that what it was? Oh, uh, uh, side, side, same side, same side. And then you have opposite side. What's that one called? Uh, contralateral. Contralateral, right. Yeah. So we call that contra body movement, but we at least use contra. But yeah. So if I were to talk to you and say, oh, we're working on contralateral instead of what I use, you'd immediately know what I was talking about and we can go somewhere with that. And so, yeah, I, I would like the, the language and the cues, as you're saying, to be better and to be more distilled down into the way that generally everyone, you know, where they really study things uses.

And then we could up convert that afterward to how do we make this movement pretty? Right. And what is the aesthetic value to this? So how do we, how do we get that, um, how do we get that communication to start? You think, or is it, how, how much is it lagging between the industries you think, or between the disciplines? I don't want to say just medical, but it's, um, we, we, we know about, and we discuss the actions, obviously, like what we call CBM is for you, this contralateral arm movement. And so, so we, we know about it. We talk about it in a way that, you know, once you bridge the gap, you're talking about the same thing, but, but still there's a, there's a tendency, and that's when you're specifically talking about movement mechanics with, with a, with a dancer or with another coach.

Mm-hmm. But that still doesn't mean that the cue to, or the, the thing that gets the couple to, or the person to do the movement you want, that's not always described in a mechanical way. Right. And for the long-term improvement, it's only helpful to know that, you know, your quads are doing this or that. You may think of something of like, be light or push a lot, and, and that can get you somewhere. But as you study deeper and you want to be more variable with your movement, you have to have a better understanding of the, you know, some dancers, most dancers at first, you know, I'll say like, this is your humorous.

And they're like, oh, okay. And their eyes glaze over a little bit. Like, oh, he's talking about muscles and both. I came here to dance. I want to go somewhere else. But, but then you will come back, you know, like in a year or two and they're like, I'm having this issue with my arm or I don't know what to do with this. Right. And then in studying that and learning, you know, that the, the deltoid, the front delt and the back delt do completely different things. And you can tell when you're using one more than the other and you're really having a problem because you're just stronger in one area.

Then they're, they sort of are convinced and they nearly always said, I wish I had paid more attention to this when I started, or I wish I knew this then, or I had done more study, it would have saved myself a lot of it. Well, injury at the extreme, but just wasted time in trying to approach this in an overly abstract artistic way and not, not accepting the fact that there are real movement mechanics underneath that, that can then get you to a better artistic performance. Well, so, so when you present that idea then to some of your people, actually, well, if you've been working with the same people, you're probably able to do a lot of it more now to get them to understand versus the new ones I would assume are probably more of like, teach me to move like a butterfly.

Yeah. They, they, over time you, you get really quite in sync and, and people start requesting their own, you know, can you give me some study material? Like, what can I read that's going to educate me on this? And sometimes it is like a dynamic movement through imagery, that book, that is something that I would have someone read when they're too technical, you know, when they, they need to imagine a merry-go-round or they need to imagine how a baby crawls to kind of give them ideas of things because that, that is effective and that can pull you out of an overly mechanic approach and maybe somewhat sterile and boring look to your dancing.

Well, you're saying too, that you work with, you, you get a lot of engineers, you said, because the area you're in and is that. San Jose has a few engineers in it. So is that, is that imagery some kind of for someone like that or. Yeah. Um, it's, it's surprising. And there's another reason why I like teaching adults because you, you can't usually with a nine-year-old talk about the, the equation for torque. Yeah. Um, there, there was a nine-year-old that I could and that, that guy was awesome, but. Bill Nye did it. Bill Nye was, he, he got it done. He got it done. Yeah, that's right. Maybe I need to put on a lab coat and be silly.

You're a doctor, dance teacher. Um, so, but with adults, that's sort of the, that's the. The difference is that kids, they just have a lot of time and a lot of energy and, you know, there's typically after a while strong bodies and they have, if they start dancing at, you know, six, they have 12 years before they have to, you know, continue as adults and adults that start at 18, let's say in college or something. They've already, they, they've got a lifetime of some other movement, you know, pathologies going on, but they are, they have frameworks to pull from so that they can learn even faster.

Right. And they have things like motivation. They don't have parents to deal with most of the time, but the adults, they're much faster at understanding the concepts. So we use one of the, one of the forces we use a lot, um, to turn as couples. We, we use, we try to use a centripetal force, like to understand that you have something passing, uh, on a tangent and something pulling toward the center and that you get this, this rotation similar to, you know, the moon. It's trying, the moon's trying to move in a straight line past the planet, but gravity from the earth is pulling it in at a balanced rate.

And that causes this nice rotation around the earth. And so that's, that's a physics concept that we use to describe how turn happens in the couple. You can't talk about that with kids. You can talk about that with adults. And with engineers, it is extremely effective to use the most basic language that you would use in physics. Well, it's a basic language, but it is, it is the science that they would use there. Talk about generating force and stuff. And you suddenly get from someone who walked in the door feeling that dancing is just not for them. They're not natural. They don't feel the music and all that.

And their eyes light up. They're like, wait a minute. I see it now. Wait, this whole thing is, is physics and body mechanics. And they come back excited, ready to go and wanting to study. And they, cause they feel like once they, once that threads there, they can keep pulling on it and unravel the whole thing in a way that they have a chance at least to make sense of it. And my best couples are made up of engineers now because, and they're very methodical with their approaches and they, they, they, they get how the body works much better than, you know, a lot of people because they just started to study it in the same way that you would study any other machine.

I bet as an engineer, they can probably understand too, that if I drop this other person as a couple, then that person will stop dancing. So like, you know, I'm scared. I'm going to say that forever, forever. If, if I drop them as a couple? No, no, no. If they drop each other, like if they lose a partner, they're like, they're, they've already, they've already thought all the steps 10, 10 in front. Um, how'd you, how'd you learn to start dancing anyways? How were you? I, um, I was later than most, um, well, I was later than most people who went on to compete as a professional. Uh, well, that's not true.

I started dancing at all, uh, when I was, uh, probably pretty young. So I grew up in Hawaii. My, my grandmother was a hula dancer. And so she was always sort of showing me how to dance hula, but she was like a good hula dancer. So it was kind of stressful because it's just like hard coach grandma. She's like, no, that's not right. That's not right. And I didn't really want to dance hula anyway, but you know, she made me, um, but it was good. It was, it was, it was a good start. And then my formative years kind of happened during the golden era of hip hop or what I consider the golden era of hip hop.

So of course I wanted to be like the break dancers and the B boy guys. And so I got into that a lot in high school, pop and lock stuff. And then I think right after high school, I ended up meeting this girl through, uh, a mutual contact and she was, uh, man, she was like the homecoming queen, just that girl. And anyway, I found her to be quite likable. And, uh, this person that had introduced me to her told me that, you know, she, she does ballroom dancing, which was very odd for the area I grew up and the age we were. And I thought, well, if I can figure this out, I could probably get her to go out.

So, and I thought I can like spin on my head and all this stuff, doing a little, doing a little tango. It's no problem. Right. And so I, I decided to go to this class, which was like near my house and it was an elementary school cafeteria taught by these, these nice old folks. And man, it was so difficult, but, but I was, I was committed, right? Like, you couldn't slow it down. You were always going fast. I don't know. I just, I took a few classes with these people and I'm like, okay, this is sort of fun, but it's just, I don't know. I don't know if I really want to do this, but I feel like I know enough to ask this girl out.

So next time I, I called her up and I said, Hey, I, uh, I hear you do ballroom dancing. She's like, yeah, I do. Uh, uh, why are you asking? And I said, well, so do I. And, uh, I need a, I need a partner for these classes and there's not anyone who really dances ballroom dancing around here, you know, our age. So I wonder if you'd be into it. And she's like, Oh, sure. Like immediately I was like, yeah. So we started going to these classes and I think eventually we dated for a little while. So it was all, that operation was successful, but we didn't date for very long. Like once I was like, Hey, this is not really what I was expecting.

And we split up quite quickly after that. Did you find that? Like you, and, uh, I kept, I kept training and I eventually decided, you know, if I really want to be serious about this, I need to move from Hawaii to California. And that's funny. Yeah. So I thought at first when you're going to tell that story, when you're called up and said, Hey, I know how to ballroom dance. It's kind of like peacocking. It's like, what? You know, like I like pop tarts. What? You want to go to dance with me? It sort of is. Yeah. I don't know. Do you, do you, when you're isolated in this world, I sort of forget how alien most people feel dancing is.

Like, do you, do you go out dancing very often? Not really. Um, I mean, I, there, there is one, there was one Instagram video right now. I should, I should send it to you, um, of me dancing. And I tend to, uh, I tend to copy, like I can, I can copy a person, I think, okay, but I can't make anything up on my own. So usually I'll just, I'll turn my girlfriend over to the, I used to copy her and, uh, she's like, you can't copy me. Like you can't copy me because of the, so she's a, she was a professional dancer. So she's pretty good. Um, and, and I was like, she's, she's like, you can't copy me. Why?

I'm like, why? And she's like, cause we're doing the same thing. I said, okay, cool. I'm going to turn you to the port, to the person where I see the guy doing the manliest dance that's most fantastic that I can imagine. And I just copy him. But then when he stops dancing, I got to turn her to somebody else. But usually that happens at weddings. So I'll, I'll send you the one video there is. Yeah, that sounds good. Something I've been curious about, um, since we talked last, do you have like a greatest success, like, like that for whatever reason, it could be a small thing or a big thing where you feel like this is, or, or like a moment that happened where you're like, I'm doing good work or I've done good work or, or like this, I've, I've, I've made it in some way that not just like, you know, that I'm, I'm famous or anything, but like, I'm really doing what I've, what I've wanted to do.

I'm doing it well. And, and this feels like, like a, like a big win for me. Oh, in this field or with dancing? No, no, no. Um, you know, I had one like last week, uh, or no, it wasn't last week, it was like two weeks ago, but, um, what would you say? I said, I said, wow. Oh yeah. Cool. Thanks. I'm going to, I'll, I'll applaud for you. Um, yeah, a couple of weeks ago and I don't always, I don't always feel this, but I feel it really good. Like when I, I feel like I've, I, I communicated well and with the person and I feel like I've made a good impression on them enough to where I can make a change in their life.

And, uh, there was, there was one guy where, and I've tried to make it, I've tried to make it a point to answer the phone more or at least call new people back more. And I've, and I've avoided phone calls for a very long time. And so I'm like, screw it. I'm just going to answer the phone, talk to him a little bit. I, I have what I call a 10 minute rule where I'm going to attempt to keep the person on the phone for 10 minutes and just ask them about their things and get them to know, get them to know, know them a little bit. So there was one morning where I had about three calls and finally, like the first two calls are like, they, they, they didn't come in, you know, or the price was a issue or they, I didn't say the things that they wanted me to say, or I didn't hear them or whatever it was.

And then finally, this third guy, uh, we talked a little bit and he has his back thing and he was, he was saying, I've, you know, here's all my frustrations with it. I've tried this and this and that, and nothing's worked and blah, blah, blah. Right. And so he asked me some questions and I, I answered them and, and finally he's like, no, I like, I feel like I've, I've already spent a lot of money on this. I don't want to, I don't want to do it anymore. And so I just kind of stopped and like, rather than doing like clinician mode, I was like, look, I'm going to do you a favor. Like the, honestly, the, probably the reason why you're not getting better is because people are picking the wrong shit with you.

And I'm like, it sounds from what I'm hearing from you is that it sounds like this won't be that hard and you don't have to come into me right now. I'm like, I'm not hard selling you or anything. I'm just giving you a piece of advice is that if you're doing the same stuff, it's probably fucking wrong. Yeah. And so I'll just being very blunt with him and he called back in 10 minutes, he booked, he came in and I didn't realize this at the time, but he, uh, so I called him a couple of days later and said, you know, how are you doing? And, uh, he's like, I'm like 50, 75% better. Like I forget his action number, but he was up there.

He was good. And he said, I decided to cancel my surgery. And I'm like, when was that booked? He's like, it was a week from now. Wow. And I was like, that's, that's great. So, yeah. So it was a really good interaction that day where I felt like, um, I was able to get the person to the information they needed. And now I have a chance to implement more, but there's, there's been days where I go home and there was one in particular while, um, this was about a month ago where these, these cases, and they don't happen very often, but like, it looks like by the time I'm done, I have every toy, like a dog that got all their, their toys out of the toy basket and left them on the floor because I just couldn't figure out a correction.

I had a, I had a theory, but I couldn't figure out a correction that would stick with them. And so I actually woke up that night around two o'clock and he couldn't sleep till four. Um, cause I was thinking about how to improve this. So at that point, I think I could probably know better cause someone else could probably get them to the point he needed quicker than I would have. But that's, uh, I guess that's, that's my answer with that. Do you, do you, I had a, one of my, uh, one of my ex-girlfriends, she was constantly laughing and making fun of me and teasing me with my, even my students. So I, I apparently just often, very often, like weekly, daily sometimes.

And if I'm in a mode, I, I, I sit up in bed, like in the middle of the night, still half asleep teaching, waving my hands around and I'm screaming. Often in my dreams, the nightmare is that I, the couple is too far away to hear me and I can't help them. So I'm sitting up waving my arm, I'm screaming, no, no, don't do this. Don't, that's bad. Or, you know, whatever. Stop spinning like a top. Yeah. Imagine you're a silk scarf floating in the wind. Um, don't do that. Just use your legs. Uh, and, and, you know, I, she'd wake me up and I'm sitting up, you know, kind of almost in a sweat. She's like, you were teaching again.

It's 3am. And, uh, this happens all the time. It happens all the time. And so when you just said, no, you woke up at two and I'd be able to, you know, two to four, like, yeah, that's my life, man. I get, I get stressed when, when I can't get through to somebody, just like when I was competing myself, if I couldn't get a good version of a figure done, I can't sleep, man. Like, like the stress and, and I have students like that. Right. And then I'm living it myself, yet it's my job to find a way to calm them so that the anxiety of the competition impending, whatever, because, you know, sleep's really important.

Yeah. I can actually, can actually sleep. I had a student in yesterday, speaking of, um, surgery, as you mentioned, uh, they're, they're sort of a new student and they have knee problems. Right. And immediately I could see, and I'm not, you know, an expert in, in, in everything when it comes to proper movement, just as a human to avoid injury and have a, you know, but some things I do know. Right. And knees and feet and usually lumbar area for the followers and shoulders, uh, for the leaders, they're always having problems, but, but knees are funny because it's, there's nothing that we do that's so crazy that they should be having knee problems, right?

And it's always, usually they're doing something bad. The most common thing that goes wrong is they have a pelvic, uh, tilt, so forward, like they, they, they drive the hips under and forward, like they're doing a crunch in an attempt to one of the most common things that we hear in ballroom dancing. And I hope we hear it less and less over time is don't stick your butt out. You want to have a straight spine. And it's one of the most terrible pieces of advice because they try and make their spines straight. They're back up against the wall. They, they try and straighten out the lumbar, which then really limits the range in the legs.

And then when you dance, well, when we dance, uh, just like in ballet, you know, they plie, they go down, they go up. We, we do a lot of down and up, you know, while we're dancing. And if your hips are in this terrible position, it drives all this stress into the knee. And so this person is doing that, right? Like they're a new student for me and I can tell, you know, that they, they've heard something like this. And I asked them, are you trying to not stick your butt out? They're like, yeah, tuck the hips and keep it under me. Keep a tight core. And I'm like, oh, but anyway, we, I'm like, okay, well let's do this.

Let's sit down in a chair a few times, you know, so they can feel that their hips flex, right? And they sit down and I'm like, that's, that's really how you want to do this where you can't keep your hips tucked. You're, you're, you need to flex at the top of your femur there. You need to sit, you need to load the hips more and not just drive everything into your knee and use your quad. And yeah, in about, you know, five minutes, she's like, wait a minute, I can lower with no knee pain or at least a much reduced knee pain because it's already aggravated. And, and so that was, that was actually a couple of weeks ago.

And then yesterday they came in and they were just ecstatic. They're like, this is really, this problem is really going away. And I don't think I'm going to have to have surgery because that was what they were throwing around was, she's a little older. They were thinking about a replacement or something. That's amazing. Yeah. And, and so this is why I really respect the work you do because I mean, for me, it's dancing and stuff, but like this really changes people's lives. Right. It's what you seem to put it in a very simple way to them, which I think, I think we tend to have a tendency of overcomplicating sometimes.

But it almost sounds like that, you know, you just gave them a little bit of homework to do and they came back and they started dancing better and then he stopped and he just carried on. Right. Like there's no like this long drawn out process to it or saying something's broken or torn, you know? No. And then, you know, you, that, that builds trust. Right. And so they're much more willing to do little things here and there after that, you know, that you might suggest, like they, they texted me this morning and they're like, please tell me about where I should go to the gym. And this person doesn't normally go to the gym.

But I mentioned that, you know, we need to restructure your body a little bit and get you strong in these other ranges and, you know, different things because you're just, you're going to keep repeating this, this mistake is you're just, you have muscle memory about it and, and, you know, then again, they start wanting to do the homework and they want to do more. I imagine you must have some people that are athletes that maybe you, you, you work with them and they're able to go out and perform and like win something big that they, they were almost going to miss because they were injured. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And, uh, I think, I think a big part with, with that, and I know we talked about it earlier is, uh, not a lot of downtime. So. Yeah. If we can just get them not to have a lot of downtime because the, the injury or the area of concern is, uh, it, it repairs at a, uh, a different rate than the entire athlete did. And if they're deconditioned, then obviously you're, they're not going to be conditioned for the event. So. Motivation, like getting people to find it or helping them find it or, or giving it to them. You know, I have some people where I get to call them all the time. Like, so, so weight loss.

I'm not sure if that's something you'd come into a lot when people are having trouble with things because they, they're just too big. Yeah. I mean, it's a, for me, it's a hard conversation, but it is one that's needed. Yeah. I mean, I, so I have one student, um, he'll know who he is by listening. Um, are you going to put this on your podcast too? I probably will. Um, he, he went, before he started dancing, he was probably, I think he was 235 and I think he's five foot four or something like that. I don't, sorry if I'm saying your height wrong, uh, student. Anonymous student. Yeah. I think his name, I think, because I, I, he's posted on my Instagram.

So, um, anyway, this, let's call him Joel. So Joel, uh, I think it was 235 and you know, he started dancing and I, for whatever reason, like dancing felt life changing for him because I think he never thought he could do something like that. And he was already on a, a track of weight loss and stuff. But now, now he's, he's 160, I think. Wow. That's impressive. And, um, and he's, you know, he's, he's come from someone who, if you'd seen him on the street and someone said, Hey, this guy's a successful ballroom dancer. Ah, yeah. Everyone would be like, right. Um, to, you know, like it's, it's, it's, it's everything.

Everything about him in my eyes, you know, he's young, so he's, he's still got a ways to go, but has changed, you know, he's a hard worker. He, he comes to his lessons dressed, you know, in a, in a nice shirt and a tie and his hair is done all the time and he's eager to learn. And he's just like, everything about him has changed. And a lot of the problems that we would have run into that I run into with people that are too big, like he's just body's totally different. You know, he's injury free. And, um, he does have some, it's funny because now something that was a problem ends up being a benefit because his legs are stupidly strong.

Yeah. He had a lot of conditioning over the years, huh? He didn't lose all the muscle, you know, in his legs. I mean, he lost some of it, but like, so he's suddenly like, I don't know if you watch, I'm a fan of this cartoon Dragon Ball Z, you know, the, the hero, before he gets into a fight, he takes off his clothes and everyone finds out that the guy's wearing a hundred pound clothes so that when he was training, it was harder. It's so funny. This is the second conversation in Dragon Ball Z that I've had on this podcast. Maybe the, maybe the third. I don't know. I guess this is, we, yeah. Did you, are you a fan?

I'm not, but I know more about it than I ever thought I would. Um, maybe there's something about people who like training because it is one of the core tenets of that, of that show is just always be training for the next thing. You know, I heard it took an entire season for him to actually do what he was going to be doing. He was like, he would ramp up for like five episodes. Oh yeah. Yeah. You gotta, you know, before you, well, it's sort of like these MMA fights, right? It's like, Hey, we know there's a fight. Then it's like three months of crap talking and photo sessions and watch this guy training.

But then sometimes it's like if they took an hour or two just to start the fight and they just filmed them staring at each other. That's sort of what that's like. Well, so then have you seen, you must have seen the YouTube video of the kid in the park going super saiyan. Um, I've seen a few videos of kids trying to go super saiyan. Not one in the park, though I am going to watch that like right now. It's great. He kind of looks like, um, do you remember, I'm thinking E.T., but maybe it was, uh, Sandlot, the kid with the glasses. Like you wouldn't expect him to go super saiyan, but he, he definitely did.

He went super saiyan. Oh, what was his name? The guy who marries. What? Squints? Squints. Something like that. He marries the lifeguard. Right. Played by Christina Ricci, I think, or something. That sounds right. I don't remember her name in it. You're killing me, Smalls. I remember that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I remember making s'mores and, uh, The Beast, which is over there. Sandlot. So, um, this guy, Joel, and I have another student who, who's in right now and she is, I think she was about one, I want to say 180, 180 something, uh, when she started. And it's, it is a conversation you have to have because, you know, there are just physical forces in play here and weighing more, especially as you age and your joints age, it's just a bad idea.

Right. And it's, it's there, you hit a wall. Like I, I could help you so much better if you were just to change the hardware a little bit, you know, and, you know, become a lighter, faster version of yourself. And, and it's, it's an uphill battle if you, if you feel that you need to keep the weight on. Right. And it's, I mean, I get it. People identify with it and it's a sensitive subject and it's like, it's, it's not body shaming or anything. It's like, well, I'm not a skinny dancer and all this, but you, I mean, you don't need to be like an Olympic gymnast body, you know, you, but there is a lot of benefit to, to being somewhere within this range and not just to the way you move, but also to the, your risk of injury and nearly all the time they start dropping the weight and the knees feel better.

The hips feel better. The feet feel better, you know, cause they're dancing in heels. I don't know if you know this, but the amount of, the amount of pressure, the PSI under a woman's heel is, is more than a car on four tires. Really? Yeah. Just, you know, cause it's, it's like a quarter of an inch and it's, you know, just the way it works out. But that's, you know, that'll wreck you over time if you're, you know, carrying extra material that you don't need to carry. Right. I bet too. Do you ever see that it goes too far the other way? Like amiciation, loss of muscle and strength, then, then there's performance and degrade and injury there.

You said a range, you said a range earlier. Yeah. Um, that there, there, there are fewer cases over time where people were trying to hit the aesthetic look of, you know, a skinny dancer look, let's call it. Right. Which is, it's really a bad idea. You want fit, right? You want fit. You definitely want muscle tone. You want, you need that. But what they have this idea of, of the wrong idea in their head. And so they'll not eat what they should be eating. Mostly it's eating. Right. But more often than not, people aren't embatiated, but they're still lacking the muscle that they need to dance. So those people, I mean, nearly everyone ends up in the same sort of range of, I need to practice this much.

I need to spend this much time in the gym or doing Pilates or doing gyrotonic is one that I like to send people to do a lot. I'm not sure if you have any. Yeah. Actually, that's what my girlfriend does. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. It's a wonderful, what do you call it, modality, right? Whatever it is. Especially for us because, you know, it's a lot of work through the spine and it's really, really important for us. And so nearly all of them end up in find out what your caloric output is, you know, for the day, eat something just barely under that or around that, unless it's, again, like I said, earlier in the season, then they'll be over it because we're trying to build muscle.

And, and that's your life, right? It's, it's, it's build, build, build, try to learn how to use it, try to stay light and, you know, flexible. And the, the process initially is very different for everyone because they're all starting in different places, like maybe weight loss is first and that's like a whole life change or maybe they're too thin. I mean, I do have one student right now who she just needed to spend a lot of time eating and in the gym because like she hit a wall where she wasn't able to produce the power and the speed that she needed to be competitive at that level. And so we're stuck.

No amount of coaching from me is going to get her there. But yeah, they all end up in a similar cycle of eventually you would ask the people at the top, what's your week like? And they all have a similar story at that point because, you know, we know in most things that, that, that is the, that is the way to keep a healthy body. That's, you know, active and, and capable. It's diet a certain amount. I know diet, like cut calories, I mean diet, like specifically have a nutrition plan, have an exercise plan, have a plan to practice your craft and, and, you know, retrain the mind really. And, uh, then have a couple of days off and rinse, repeat.

Good. Uh, as we start to close out because we're, we're well over an hour here. Yeah. They did. I know they blew by last time too, I think. Uh, is there anything else you'd like to add before, actually, how does everyone reach you? How does everyone reach me? Uh, yeah, you can email me at, uh, Ikaikadauset at gmail. You can find me on Twitter, uh, at Ikaikadauset, spelled I-K-A-I-K-A-D-O-W-S-E-T-T. I always think if I should have some other, like, you know, if it's something you always have to spell for people, I feel like the, the branding of that is a little hard. I think, I think it'd be okay.

You might not have too many people search yet. At least, at least if you're not doing it on the islands, then you're probably the only one. Yeah. And it's so nice to go to Starbucks there and order a coffee and they're like, what's your name? And I don't have to say Bob. Cause I'm always Bob over here cause it's just a long conversation if it's Ikaikadauset. Yeah. So yeah, you can reach me on email and Twitter, um, Instagram, also Ikaikadauset. Instagram and Facebook are probably where I post most of my stuff with my couples and I don't know, whatever. Um, uh, I teach in San Jose. Uh, so if you have dance related questions or something like that, you can find me here.

Um, and anything I would want to leave you with, I don't know, man, like if, if, if you're a person who's trying to learn anything, like it's got to work hard, you know? And, and even more than that, if it's something that you need to guide for, you need to find the best coach or, or person you can, right? Like, and it is worth the cost, you know, like it's, it's really worth it to, you know, if I, if I have an injury or if I have a problem, like I'm coming to see you. I'm not going to go see someone who's just like on Yelp, right? Like it's, it's, even if it's double or triple because the, the, just the time and the risk of learning things wrong.

It's just even the time, like, let's say I, I'm injured. I go to another doctor and he tells me to do something and it's sort of, you know, it doesn't work that well. And, and I spent some money and, uh, all that, but like, I just don't want to spend the time trying to fix something the wrong way and it doesn't work. I'd rather go see the best person I can. So I'm coming to see Sebastian. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I'm going to do whatever you say, right? And it doesn't matter how much more it is or whatever than the next guy, because I just don't like, it's just not worth it to do stuff wrong or to, to, to, to, to, you know, try and cut corners, you know, with my, just find the money.

Like my body, man, like it's the thing I live in. It needs to be like functioning at the highest level, especially if you're an athlete. So like seeking out the best help and mentorship or whatever that you can find and just having a work ethic that is just rise and grind every day, year after year. It's just, I don't know. I like that sort of warrior life, like the, the path. So that's just, if anyone's listening that is doing anything like related to that pursuit, um, you could probably always be smarter. You could find better people. Well, I don't know if you can, I can always find better people, but try to think if you can find better people to work with and, um, just always be examining your process.

And, uh, I think you'll do fine. Nice. Thanks. Uh, thanks so much for being on. It's, uh, it was a pleasure. Last time was fun too. So it's, it's, it's, this is like not work. That's great. Yeah. I, I, this, I, we have to do this again. Uh, I guess we should give people a break probably, but, um, your, your podcast on mine was probably the most popular one so far. So I definitely have to have you back. Oh, good. Yeah. I'd love to come back. We talk about a variety of different things. I'm sure. Tangent. Yeah. More Dragon Ball Z. I'm going to go watch this kid in YouTube right now. Oh, you should.

You totally should. Yikaika, thanks so much for being on. That was an amazing interview and I, I had a great time, really good time. So if you guys are looking to reach out to him, as you can tell, he's a good conversationalist and he just wants to improve the dance industry. So, uh, when I went through on his podcast and we were talking, uh, I asked him about his main goal with that podcast and, uh, he's trying to change shit. So I think, uh, even if you're not a dancer, I think you should go through there and just understand, understand what some of your dancing and the arts athletes are actually, uh, going through in their actual sport.

So, uh, it's very interesting to hear and I'm going to start listening to more of his podcasts, but he didn't make them live yet for me. Damn it. I just got the one that I have. So if you guys are looking for him, obviously you can find the links on the show notes, go to p2sportscare.com. If you type up Ika, uh, one or I K A I K A, or you just go on and put whatever interview number this is. I don't know which one it's going to be. It might be one 16 maybe we'll see. I don't know when, and I don't know until I actually publish it, but just go on there and just put that number. Don't put a hashtag or a number sign.

Just put that in the search bar and you'll find all the notes to it as well. So leave people better how you found them. And apparently you got a Dean Eagle Scout. Talk to you later.