Communication, empathy and trust in care with Bobby Maybee

What's in it for me? What's in it for me? What's in it for me? That's going around like it's like a little thought cloud over everybody's head when I'm talking to them. You got to put yourself into your, whoever you're talking to, you got to put yourself into their mind and think of that little thought cloud of what's in it for me. Right. And for her, she wanted someone to actually listen to her and look her over. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales.

So everybody, that was a short clip from the interview today with our guest, Dr. Bobby Mabee. So you might've heard of Dr. Bobby, the legend of Bobby Mabee on the Forward Thinking Chiropractic Alliance. This is probably going to be more of a podcast today for actually students or people who are about a year, two years out of school. I don't know if they allow PTs or trainers in those, that group, but you might as well ask because there's a lot of good things you'll probably guys probably get from it. But anyways, the Forward Thinking Chiropractic Alliance is something that Bobby started in a mission to promote the style of care that you probably have heard from my podcast. And it's not like your typical chiropractic is what we say.

And I know a lot of people come into my clinic, they're like, well, I don't, what do I call you? And it's like, there's no categorization for us apparently in regards to the public size. So that stereotype that a lot of people like me practice like, Bobby's kind of got a whole group of it right there, about 6,000 people on Facebook. So definitely check that out. But so again, students, younger docs, and even I learned a lot from this today. In emailing Bobby back and forth, we didn't know exactly what we were going to talk about. I had no idea that where this was going to go. But we were trying to focus on communication styles and some networking things. But as I found that we went through this, it's basically a lot of storytelling. And it's funny on the emails, I was like, you know, like Bobby, do you have stories and stuff like that? He's like, oh yeah, I got some stories. But I think you'll see that through his style of communication, and this definitely works well with lay public, but also just people in general. I think people like stories personally, if we get into that technical stuff, a lot of times that we have learned through school, a lot of times people's brains will turn off. So I think communication and building trust is a huge thing, which we'll go into a ton of today. Now, if you're looking for the show notes on this, just look up Bobby Maybe, that's Maybe with two E's on p2sportscare.com.

On the search function, we have a transcript right there. And I guess we're going to go real quickly into a story about my life and my passion for not liking single-use kitchen items. And single-use kitchen items, if you don't know what they are, like a pepper grinder would be one. Like you can't use it for anything else. There's salad spinners, there's garlic presses, there's things of that nature. And the one that I do like is the garlic press. We can go into that a different time. But the salad spinner is the absolute worst. And I'll tell you the reasons why. So the salad spinner, you only, if you don't know what it is, you basically put your salad in there after you rinse it, you spin it around a handful of times, and then your salad's dry. Okay. So I have a friend who he actually, he had a salad spinner and I hate them because they're big, they're clunky. You don't use them for anything else other than that one thing. So I was like, you got a salad spinner? What are you going to do with the salad spinner? And he's like, well, no, we eat salads all the time. And I'm like, you don't eat salads all the time. I bet you never use that thing. I bet there's months and months that go by you don't use that salad spinner. So the, as the story goes, is me and a couple friends went over to his house and we actually, we attacked his house. We basically cut out a bunch of pictures of ugly cats since he doesn't really like cats. And we put them around his house. We put them on the Christmas tree. We put them under a pillow. We put it in the freezer. We put them all over the place.

And one of them was in the salad spinner and months went by and we kept getting pictures, random pictures of these cats. He's like, oh, I found one, you know, and finally the last one to go, I think there was about almost 10 in his house. And the last one he finally found, I want to say it's six to eight months later, he found the one in the salad spinner. He didn't even take it out before they spun the salad. They spun the salad and saw there was a cat picture in there. So my thought is that you think you use your salad spinners, but you really don't. It took him six to eight months to find that damn cat and a salad spinner should just go, just go away. None of them ever again on this earth. So let's go on to the interview with Bobby. Maybe everyone. Welcome on Mr. Bobby. Maybe Bobby.

What's up? How's it going? It's going good. Can you tell me the legend of Bobby? Maybe. Oh, there's no, well, I had, I do have some friends that would say there is a legend, I guess. Um, but there isn't really. I mean, I grew up in a Royal Grande, California, so I'm a California boy like you. Um, uh, which is San Luis Obispo. If I mean, how far out do we have to get before people know where I'm from? It's the central coast of California. Surprisingly, I don't think a lot of people have been to central coast, California. There's not a lot of people that, I mean, the people who go through there, here's the deal. It was a quiet little sleepy beach town and a college town until Oprah Winfrey, uh, claimed it was the happiest place in all of, I think America or the world to live. And, um, you can't live there anymore. Nobody, nobody could live. It's a bimodal population. It's either older baby boomers or college kids there, but no one, no one who has kids and families and a career can afford to live there. Yeah. We had, we had a, uh, uh, house that we went to when I was younger. We'd go to Cambry all the time. So, um, yeah, yeah. Cambry is beautiful. And, um, what happened in that community? So it does sort of fit into the legend a little bit is, um, you know, what, what would happen is like, say when, when we're younger professionals and we're going to chiropractic school or dental school or whatever school you're going to, and then you get out and you're, you're with your, your spouse, not your spouse, but maybe your significant other. And you're driving the coast of California to go to Cambria or Big Sur to go from San Francisco to LA or vice versa. As you drive through this little town, which is immaculately beautiful. And, um, you'd say, you know what, I think, I think we want to live here. And so from a chiropractic standpoint, uh, there, if you count the whole little metro area there, the little city is 60,000 people, but there were also 60 chiropractors for those 60,000 people was, which is just absurd, you know? I mean, any, any sort of like, uh, of those guru types would say you need one chiro per 3000 people and you're probably going to be all right. And this was one for 1000.

So I figured out really fast, you either have to work three times as hard or get paid three times as less, or there's something in between there, you know, um, I was just tired of working three times as hard. So, um, when it was time to raise a family, we moved back to Portland, Oregon. So I went to a Western States chiropractic college. Well, I'd heard that you've been like, you went back and forth to slow a couple of times. Yeah. I mean, I still have lots of contacts there. I'm still in a lot of organizations there. I have lots of friends there. Um, friends. I mean, my wife is still astonished. Like, you know, everybody in this town, like, yeah, I grew up here. I can show up at any moment and I will, I can only make it about a block before I know somebody it's a small town. So, um, it's, it's just crazy. Like it's still home and we all have these places we consider home, but then there's the place where you got to do work. So it's like a fighter, right? Like when a fighter enters the ring, it's like out of Torrance, California, but fighting out of Oxnard, you know, I'm just, I'm fighting out of Portland, Oregon right now, but I'm, I'm out of San Luis Obispo.

Yeah. Does the, does the legend go all the way to Los Osos and Morro Bay as well? Um, you know, I've got definitely some, my in-laws live in Morro Bay. I definitely have friends in Morro Bay. Los Osos is a great, um, you know, you don't want to talk, a lot of people don't want to talk about, uh, uh, hunting because it involves firearms and killing animals, but Morro Bay is like a secret spot for duck hunting. Really? A lot of people don't know about, there's a lot of, um, old school geese hunters there that, that will call geese with, with, uh, with their mouths. And they know all the secrets to hunting a Brant goose, which is like a treasured goose. Uh, I think in California you can only have one, like one or two a year. Oh, really? And these, these guys are old school and they know how to get these geese that migrate from Canada along the coast. And they stopped in these little bays like Crescent City, Eureka Bay, Morro Bay. Um, and they probably stopped in Southern California at some point, uh, when, when there was an estuary there, but not anymore.

Interesting. So, so Morro Bay is a pretty interesting place. Um, it's a, it's like a, and Los Osos too. They're like shanty beach towns, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They still have that sort of surfer beach bum sort of mentality to them. Um, so what you don't see a lot of like on the clinical side of things, you don't see a lot of, um, standout clinicians. It's like, it would be a gold mine to run into a standout clinician in these little tiny beach towns, you know, cause a standout clinician would never, unless that's where they're from, they would never end up like in Los Osos. Um, you, you end up, and I talked with a lot of young chiropractors about this, like one of the most important decisions you make when you get out of school is where you're going to practice first, because it can kind of set you up from a, for a cascade for everything else after that in your career. And you don't want to set up in like a little beach town. You don't want to set up, um, in our group, the, the forward thinking chiropractic Alliance. We get questions sometimes from people who are like, help me with my practice. And I, well, what's the problem? Well, I live in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma and I, you know, my town is only two, uh, 12,000 people and I can't seem to get enough business. Well, yeah, of course, you know, it's, it's simple market economics.

They got to make sure they don't offend just one influential people, a person in the, in the, in the community. Right. Well, you know, and that's true because in a small town, everybody knows everybody and you do have to be sort of a Jack of all trades. So you, so say, you know, you really set yourself up as, um, you know, like a, a, an expert in, um, in, in some of these clinical approaches, like using a kettlebell for, for loading strategies for rehab or something. And you're only going to get a certain number of those of people who are like into that. So if you, if you specialize too much, you lose your opportunity. But if, so you see a lot of generalists in these small towns, they can birth babies and everything. I think, right. Usually in there. Well, some, yeah, I don't know if we want to get started on that, but in, um, you do, you, you tend to see people who will generalize even further and further out and, um, their plenary in their, in their approach, you know, children, Medicare, you know, they'll take whatever they can get at some point, just as long as they get business now in a bigger city or a bigger region.

Um, you can specialize much, much more, you know, you can say, you can do what you did in chiropractic school. Like, I only want to deal with athletes. Yeah. Do that in a, in a small town and see what happens, but you can do that like in Miami or Huntington beach or San Diego, you know, you can specialize down. So a lot of times these young guys will, and gals will make their first practice decision based upon just these weird ideas or these unusual, the thing, you know, I say like you spend eight years learning how to be what you are because you have so much passion to be it. Like you have to get it out of your system to be this thing.

If it's a chiropractor, whatever it is. And then at the very end, you meet a boy or a girl who's like got a job in town or, or is from a certain hometown and you follow them to that hometown and you don't, you don't finish out that last eight years. You don't finish out that last bit by making the right decision of where to go to, to, to execute who you are as a person and express that the best you can. Yeah. I, I know, definitely know that practicing, I mean, I know I, I, I thought at first I'd just practice where my, uh, so where my internship was, but yeah, um, I was fortunate enough to at least want, I'm like, well, screw it. I want to live where I want to live. So I lived where I want to live and then I practiced a mile away, but there was enough people here.

Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. When I first got out, um, and, and I was privileged, uh, I, I was a kid, I was a CA before I started chiropractic school. And the two chiropractors that I worked for were like, come back. You all will always have a job with us. Just get licensed and get your diploma and come back and we will employ you. So I went through those first, those chiropractic school years, like, all right, I got this. There's nothing to worry about. I'm employed when I'm done. What else do you guys have? And, um, of course, when I got out and I showed up on their doorstep, like, Hey, it's time for me to work. They're like, uh, you know, they weren't ready. We'll pay you $500 a month. And, and, uh, um, here's a contract that says you can have 4% of the rest or 40% of the rest. And I'm like, that's not even, where'd you get that from? Like they didn't even know what a contract was. So, yeah. But I didn't know, just like you, I knew where I wanted to be. And there's that choice too. And that's a choice where if it's a place, like it's your hometown and your hometown has 500 people in it and that's where you want to practice. That's fine. You just have to either eat it like I did. I mean, I took a pay cut to live where I wanted to live. And that's where a lot of people who live in San Luis Obispo in California do is they take pay cuts. They eat it. Uh, we call them house poor people. They've got so much money in their home that they don't have money to spend on stuff. Um, but they love living there so much they wouldn't do it any other way. Yeah. So you, so, so that's the way it is. Um, and that's a problem in that town or other towns like that, because if you got a whole town like that, no one has any disposable income, right? It's hard for some people to understand that chiropractic is not the top choice for all of your solutions.

So what do you think happens with those patients in that town or that, sorry, the, the people in that town, do they just get things and realize I can't pay for it? I don't like the way this one person practices in my town, so I'm just going to stay in pain. There is a lot of, um, there's, so have you read, you've read the Chris protocols, you read, read the book. Well, so, uh, Don Murphy in the, in the beginning of the chapter and the Chris protocols, if you are a clinician who deals with, and we're talking volume one here, but if you are somebody who deals with the low back, you have to read the Chris protocol, C R I S P it's an excellent book. If you're, if you paid attention to chiropractic school, not a lot of it is groundbreaking to you, but it's all condensed into this one volume. So it's like, oh my God. So it has, uh, the biopsychosocial approach to pain. It has the McKenzie approach to treatment. It has all these other things that have been, uh, disparate throughout the community that, that you had to spend a lot of money to sort of put all the P and time to put the pieces together to make a thing. They got it in one book, but in the beginning of the chap, in the beginning of the book, there's a chapter where he talks about low back pain being an epidemic around the world. And if there was just one profession or one type of professional that could master and was willing to take on low back pain as the focus alone, like this problem, low back pain is a big enough problem that you could be a specialist in just the low back and you can solve a lot of the world's problems. Uh, but as we know, a lot of people don't want to just be known as low back people that, you know, it's too limited of a, of an idea. Um, but what he noted was the problem when you don't have an expert. So, you know, like if you chip a tooth, you know where to go, you go to the dentist, you know, if you've got that elephant type of crushing pain in your chest, you know, you know, that you're probably having a heart attack. So you know where to go with that, you know, when to go to the emergency room, but when people have low back pain, they don't know where to go. They'll try anything. So it's a supermarket approach. They'll try a little acupuncture. Maybe they'll try some chiropractic. Uh, maybe they will use some heat. Maybe they'll use ice, but please don't use ice. If you're a patient or potential patient, listen to this.

Um, they have all these sort of things that they'll try that are like going to a supermarket, uh, but not the results that they need. And the results really come from a professional looking at them. Who's an expert in the topic and, and recommending the things that are right for them specifically. Yeah. That is interesting. I didn't even think of it that way before, but why do you think then the late public has that perception of not knowing where to go? There's no, there's no expert. There's no absolute professional to tell them what it is with their low back. And as we know, as we deal with low back pain, there's multiple causes, there's multiple etiologies for why your back would hurt. Um, there's a lot of red flags you kind of have to screen through to make sure, um, the differential diagnosis list isn't huge, but it definitely takes an expert to sort of tease out what's really causing this sort of back pain. Um, not just structurally, but functionally and, and, and being really good at the initial examination process and the diagnostic diagnostic process. Um, I don't think anyone owns the game enough to do that consistently enough. Like, you know, you can find a good chiropractor and if you find one, awesome. Uh, you can find a great physical therapist. And if you do find one, that's awesome. But we're talking when we, when you talk on a macro scale, most of those people are competent, but not excellent.

Maybe, maybe McGill's trying to, trying to target this market with that back mechanic. Um, yeah. So I think McGill and, and you've interviewed McGill and I've, and I've been a pen pal of McGill's for a long time. He, I would consider him a friend of mine. Um, he's, he's responsive on email and I love that. He's a very responsive. He wants people to understand this, this information and through back mechanic, I think his most important concept was people need to understand that there's a lot of myths floating around. And I think the myths are what drive people to the supermarket approach. Oh, I heard like, uh, I heard if I get in the, the Martian boots and hang upside down, it'll help with my back pain. Stump water works for me. You know, uh, I, when I first started my career, I was in San Jose, I was, I lived in Los Gatos and I worked in San Jose and we had a, like a decently sized Spanish speaking population. You'd see people coming in with slices of potatoes on their eyes. And like, why do you have a sliced potato on your eyes? It was because my grandma said, that's what helps with headaches. You know, and it's like the, the bigger job that I see as a clinician now that I'm 12, 13 years into it is the first part of my thing is, you know, Mrs. Jones, we're going to make sure that none of that 2% is happening. We need to make sure we have all the red flags out of the way first. And then after that is an interview process where we go through, okay, so what are, what yellow flags are present? Are we seeing any of these biopsychosocial issues that are going to affect our ability to help the person? And then what kind of myths do they carry on? Like, are they wearing a back brace? Um, where they told if they just do a lot of crunches, it's going to help with their back. You know, what, what sort of things are they carrying with them and then dispelling those myths? And that's a tough part to be doing as a clinician because some people you'll say things like, uh, don't use ice anymore. Let's switch to heat. If you're going to use anything, you know, some, some simple, um, or teaching them about, um, today we did, there were a couple of people that had, um, a box squat in their, in their exercise protocols because they were told by their personal trainer asked to grass was the way to squat and the only way to squat.

And it's like, eh, let's dispel that myth while we're here. And, and sometimes they'll look at you like, you're from Mars, you know, like, wait, but the other guy said, and there's no other harder person to compete with than, um, what did that doctor? Dr. My last doctor, my last, my last doctor, my last doctor, everything he says was right. And everything you say usually is wrong because you haven't built up the rapport or the trust with the patient, you know? Right. I did hear you say before on that, on a different interview, actually, it was interesting that you, you said that they're a customer experience, not just patients and they're those myths and bias they bring with them. You have to have some merit to, you know? Yeah. You know, for the, for the doctors that are listening, you know, you know, I've looked at who you've interviewed like Quinn and you've interviewed some great clinical minds and, and the, the doctors that are coming up that they're probably great clinical minds too, but you know, they're not like as well known. I, I, we interviewed like periodically inside my, my Facebook group, which is got 6,000 evidence-based chiropractors in it. I hope they're all evidence-based. I don't know. Um, got to screen them a little better. You got to screen them a little better. Um, we, we periodically do surveys and, and what we're finding with these surveys is a lot of people will say things like, you know, they'll be technically, uh, uh, technique wise and highly trained individuals who know a lot of stuff, but then they'll say things like, but I hate marketing and I don't want to market. And, and that's fine, except that they don't, they, they might not understand that the marketing part gives them sort of like a social proof or a credibility before the person even gets in the door. So you don't have to sell anybody anything once they're in the door. It's like, if you have a tight website that sort of follows the story brand approach, um, story brands, another book by, I forgot his name.

It's called story brand, your business. I think it's another Miller. It might be another Dawne Costantino Miller. There might be two Dawne Costantino Millers there. Story brand. Okay. I'm writing that down. Um, you know, it's just a way of setting up your website and doing your marketing so that when people see you, they already know what you are before you walk in. Right. And story brand is more specifically like you make your story on your website about them and not about you, but how many, how many physicians do you know that when you look at their website, it's a big ass picture of them and it's all their degrees and it's all the stuff they do and it's all the techniques and the patients don't care anything about those techniques. They don't care about the letters after your name. They just want to know if you can help them with their problem, if you can guide them along. Yeah. Um, and if you set up your marketing, right. And you've been out in the community and you've done all this stuff by the time somebody walks into your office, they already kind of know what they're going to get. You're just there to, to like match the name to the face. Oh yeah, you, I've been following your stuff. And, and then you tell them what you tell them. Like, I heard you say that somewhere else before.

And then you just go through your thing. But these guys are like, you know, they've got business cards that are just full of letters after their names. And they're like, but I don't want to tell anybody what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I find it interesting you have that experience. I, cause I've had that one too. Um, I've been putting out, uh, content for a while and, uh, right. I've been quite a few people have come in and they're like, Oh my God, that's that forerunner you did that video with how to set the car. Yeah. You know, that's how that works, you know, and they love that. And, um, it is just how it can help them. But, um, I have actually noticed too, that a lot of interns that come into my office there, they want to know a lot about techniques. They want to know, Hey, which, which seminar should I take next? I'm like, dude, you can't, you can't show them anything unless you get them in the door first, you know? Yeah. It, the students are very interesting. So, um, we had our first, uh, my Facebook group, the forward thinking chiropractic Alliance heads first annual convention at Cleveland chiropractic college. And I think 250 people showed up, which is pretty cool.

And they were all stoked and there were a lot of students there. That was the case, the Kansas, is that Kansas city? Yeah, it's Kansas city. I didn't know Cleveland's in Kansas city now. Yeah. Yeah. They, they shrunk out of the LA off LA campus, which is okay. That campus was kind of sketchy and their campus in Kansas city is immaculate. It's beautiful. Now I, there, I am, I'm under no non-disclosure agreements. I think Carl Cleveland is looking at a San Diego campus. Oh really? To expand back out. Hmm. So there you go, everybody. We need, we need one down here. Another one. There's a secret from the inside. Um, but, but the kids, we'll call them kids, the students, they're adults, they're grown ass people. Um, they're there. They don't know that when they graduate, they will have everything they need to help people. Does that make sense? Like, yeah, you need to add more and you need to keep learning. Uh, and you need to add some sort of, uh, a better way of assessing probably like an SFMA or some sort of front loaded assessment process. Um, and you need to be, you need to constantly improve your ability to communicate with patients and all that. But they don't know because everyone keeps telling them that you don't have enough to treat when you get out, but you do, it's all right there. Uh, Jason Holm, I think was the interview in my podcast where we said that because he works with students a lot. They have all the skills they need by the time they graduate. If you went to a good school, um, they just don't believe it. And you, the only way to believe it is the exact thing that's not happening with students is to allow them to have their hands on people, right? And allow them to touch the people and work with them. And they'll know that they can take care of people just fine.

Uh, you're not going to be the best. And, uh, it seems these days, the way it's going, if, uh, the adjustment is in your toolbox, you're going to be pretty bad at it at first. And then the soft tissue skill set is going to be pretty, pretty bad because you need experience. But for the most part, if any student or about to be doctor is hearing me, don't fret so much about learning a whole bunch of techniques, um, learn about communication and learn about how to manage yourself in business. And a lot of the kids will say, um, well, I'm just going to be an associate right out of school. So I don't, I don't need to worry about the business stuff. You still, yes, you do. Yeah. You have to understand contracts. You have to understand, uh, how to negotiate and work with your, um, accountant and you're going to have to learn about taxes and you're going to have to learn just a different set of business standards. Um, well, I think that, um, I know that one of my experiences with, uh, credentials and number letters after a name and whatnot is that I remember I spent, uh, you know, the ACBSP, the, uh, okay. So I did the diplomate, right? Took a little time, took a little money. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I got back to the clinic and I, and I had this little thing. I put it on the wall. I'm like, I got this. And the first patient's like, what does that mean?

Yeah. It didn't mean anything to them. And I think it, it, it just kind of like what you said earlier. It's like the, the storytelling process. Like I think each person is selfishly, which I think everyone does this and it's, I don't have a problem with it, but they, they, they say, well, what about me? How does that apply to me? Right. And they're paying you money. So why not? You know? Well, me and, and Todd Riddle had a talk, uh, in my last podcast and it was, there was quite a bit off the air. I think we spent an hour off the air before we spent an hour on the air. And, uh, he teaches for factor. I did listen to part of that one. And, um, and, and then I've also had a conversation with Howard Fidler, who's a sports oriented chiropractor in the American Chiropractic Association. And those two have agreed that the, like the CCSP process, the, uh, ACSB, I think is what is the other one? Uh, DACBSP. DACS, all the, all the acronyms that, that mean a lot more to the doctor than the patient, even though, um, at some point, I think if you got those credentials, you were probably taking care of people better than the average chiropractor, but the bar has raised quite a bit. And some of the average chiropractors are doing just as, just as well. Um, I guess I should clarify with those, uh, certifications is now there's a hierarchy behind them. Yeah. There's like a reputation behind them. You got to do it. Yeah. Yeah. You got to do it. If you're going to be a sports guy, you got to do it. That is kind of how I started doing it. Yeah. The younger, the younger, educators or the younger people are like, they want to break that system down and create a whole new system. Yeah. And I don't know if that's the right way to go about it. Um, I'm always sort of like a make the existing systems better, break down the inside of that system and make it better. But, um, uh, something, something's going to change eventually because like we said, a lot of people are, are, uh, what's in it for me. And they don't see the value of that, of having an extra couple letters after your name, unless you can communicate why. Right. And I guess I should, I should clarify cause I got in trouble one time for this that, um, I, I like, I don't see any problem. I like, I actually, I like advanced certifications, but at the same time it doesn't equate to business. I know some great docs that are just right. Crappy business. Yes. Yes, exactly. So we had always flirted with the forward thinking chiropractic Alliance, like some sort of advanced training to, to distinguish yourself as an evidence-based provider, but we don't, I I've never gone, I mean the whole, um, I guess you could say curriculum is already in place, but there is no reason to roll it out because there's no reason it doesn't help the patient. Like there's no, not only does it not help the clinician, like what would an extra couple letters about evidence-based care do for your practice, but also for the patient, like, do they really care? And that's a big conundrum within the chiropractic profession is we're split in half, half the people don't like to, or don't really prefer to talk about evidence based care at all. They basically go off of their experiences and their, their own little experiment that happens inside their office. And then there's these other guys that almost to a religious standpoint, which is live off of the evidence and, and this stuff. And there's not much difference between the outcomes and the two, there's some subtle differences, but not a lot of difference.

It's like, so why, why would you bother as much? What we really need is to understand that there's a bunch of different ways of doing this, but we still need to speak the same language. Um, and we still need to have the patient's best interest first. So, um, you know, the old chiropractic saying is, um, you got to guard the sacred trust. And my new saying is the patient's trust is more important than the sacred trust. You always got to put the patient before anything else. Since, well, since we've gone down the conversation a little bit of, um, with patient trust, then do you have any, uh, do you have any suggestions on how to build patient trust?

Um, there has to be a huge listing pro process. So here's, here's one where I screwed up. So, so the legend of, uh, no one ever builds a legend by admitting when they screwed up, I guess, I don't know, but, or, or they do, but I definitely screwed up a couple of days ago. So I've recently gone all, um, all digital. So, um, people can schedule online to see me. They don't have to call a receptionist. The receptionist that I do have is at a call center and she's a digital reception, uh, not a digital receptionist, but a virtual receptionist, you know, so she'll do the scheduling for me, but she's not in the office. I can't wait to hear this. I did the same thing last week.

The billing lady is who knows what state she's in. She's all the way across the country. Um, you know, all that stuff has been automated, which means there's a lot more room for error that you can't control right in front of you. Uh, but a lady had, I think she called me or she sent me a, she got my phone number somehow and texted me. So she got my personal phone number. And so probably the virtual receptionist gave out my, my personal cell phone number and the lady texted me and said, do you take such and such insurance? And I said, you know what? I gotta be quite honest. That insurance is pretty crappy and there aren't many people in town who take that insurance.

Um, but if you want, I can help you go through the list and maybe find somebody good. Um, and she's like, no, I've had some bad experiences with chiropractic and, and providers already like simple low back garden variety, low back. And she'd been with a guy for 12 or 13 visits or something with no result. I said, well, the best I can do, you know, with, with your insurance is offer you, you know, like a cash rate. But we, you know, if you have some financial hardship, their financial hardship policies, I went through the whole compliance thing. And then I never heard from her again. So she must've found somebody and moved on. And then, uh, I think two months passed and then my message, my cell phone blows up again. It's like, I'm out on a day that I don't work. It's like, I'm outside your office. Where are you? I scheduled an appointment and I go, wait, what? So I have constant access to my schedule. So I'm looking at my schedule and I text back, like, you're not on my schedule. You're not registered as a patient in my database. You don't, you don't exist. You didn't schedule an appointment with me. You, there's some sort of mix up here, but here's, that's where I went wrong. Somewhere the system fell apart. She tried to register and either didn't push enter or something and it didn't register her, but she, in her mind, you got an appointment. Interesting. Yeah. There's, there's going to be, she did that on her own though. It wasn't through your reception. It was her fault. No, it was her fault. Okay. Now here's, here's the part where you build trust. I called her. So that's the first part is in this digital age, especially if we're have some millennials on the line here, you still have to talk to people face to face. Um, so I called her, which is about as close to face to face as we can get sometimes. And I talked to her and I, I said, it was my fault. I said, I was sorry because it's my system. You know, I didn't pass it on to a front desk person. It's very easy if you've got a staff to be like, oh, that's the receptionist fault or that's so-and-so's fault. If you're the leader, it's your fault and you, you have to accept fault for your team. And my team just happens to be a digital team. Um, and then I, I said, you know, what's been going on? And I let her tell her story. That's all I did for trust is let people tell their story. So in a clinical scenario, even if you're super busy in, in your, you have to process the patient and process the paperwork and do your intake and make sure that you've eliminated the red flags and you're doing your orthopedics and you're doing all the neuro stuff. Don't forget to stop and listen. Cause that's where the trust is built the most. And when I admitted my own defeats and when I admitted that we're all only human and that I said, I think something like, what's the next step for us, for us, what can I do for you to help you get better? Even if that means not you not working with me, but me finding someone that you can work with, you could feel even over the phone, the, the, the air lifted. So it's just customer service stuff. Um, and you, you either learn that from experience, which I think I probably did. Uh, but I don't remember anywhere where I just sort of read how to be a good at customer service. It was just sort of like that concept stuck really tightly. You know, if you're in a beach town, you're seeing more of the amiable people, you know, the surfers and stuff like that. And the last one, uh, I forget what they were. I think they were more like visually oriented. I forget the fourth one. I'll get that one wrong. Um, but you, you kind of had to know that when you were walking in. Okay. So Steve in room two is a driver and he has chronic headaches. So you go in there modeling what you know, and you don't, you don't know, you don't know until you've seen them the first time. So you got to figure it out the first time. Okay. So I've worked with Steve on my first visit and did all my evaluation by the end of the first visit. I kind of figured out that this guy's high strung and he's wired for speed. So I'm going to have to talk faster and I'm going to have to not beat around the bush with my explanations with them. And I'm going to have to be very focused on what we're trying to accomplish. All right, Steve, you got a headache and we don't want to waste a whole bunch of your time with this. This is a pretty easy fix.

Uh, if we have this compliance, you know, I see you once a week for a couple of weeks and you go home and you do this stuff, you will get the result and you just drive through it. The, the, uh, the emotive person, you've got to hold their hand and listen and sympathize and empathize. And so it's really, it's just about knowing your audience. So you're just kind of going in and first, uh, you mirror them a little bit and just feel it out, put your toe in the water and see what, and then you, whatever, whatever you get from them, you just go with. See, yeah. See who you're dealing with, which takes listening. You know, my newest sort of mentor is a Jordan Peterson, which I think some people like Jordan Peterson and some people don't based on political lines. Um, so if you don't like Jordan Peterson and this part of the conversation, I really can't do much for you, but he's a clinical psychologist. He's taught at like Harvard and the university of Toronto. He's a Canadian guy. And, um, you know, from the clinical side, the clinical things he talks about and the research-based stuff in psychology, he's so spot on.

He does get sort of metaphysical and then you kind of lose it, lose it a little bit, but so much of his clinical stuff is just about listening and just being as McGill would also say. And, uh, when I interviewed Charlie Weingroff, it was the same and it just kept being a theme over and over again. You just have to be agnostic to the process. So you go into your first patient experience with the patient, not expecting anything, which is a little bit different than when you're in school and they say, okay, so, uh, your patient might say something pathognognomonic. So that means you immediately start thinking this because you got to start getting your differential diagnosis down. Like, Oh, I've got this headache at the peak of my head. And it's just like, like a crown. You're like, Oh my God. Oh my God. Um, so the, the process is a little different in that when you are assessing somebody, you've got to be agnostic to the process. So you don't let, you don't let the process skew your thinking or your listening while it's going on. So say if you're doing like a selective functional movement assessment, or if you're a trainer and you're doing a functional movement screen or what, you just look, you just look. And then at the end you say, okay, so after I looked, what did I get versus saying, all right, through the process, okay, so this and then this and this, you don't worry about any of that stuff. So it really helps when you're with the patient that you can just, uh, stop and let them talk. Um, I don't do, what is the intake PQRST?

They didn't teach us that at Western States Chiropractic College. It was a LQSMAT. So it's a little bit simpler. It's L location. Oh, uh, Q is like quality of the pain and S severity and modifying factors, a associated symptoms and T previous treatments. Um, but that is such a skeleton that the whole thing around it is, is about the story around it. So, um, if you listen to a lot of the McGill stuff as McGill would like to do initially, he just sits them down in what looks like a living room sort of environment with a fireplace going and he just talks to them and he wants to know when, why, how, and where this thing occurs. And then he goes from there into his, uh, his beat laboratory, his toy shed of, of stuff that he has like ropes and chains and free weights and kettlebells and all that sort of stuff. So, um, not that like listening is not an unusual, like that's, that, that seems like such dumb advice. Like just listen to people.

Yeah. Well, I think, I do think in school we are very, um, from what I understand that like at SCU right now, I think it's like an 18 minute history or something like that, or it's a quick, okay. And, um, and yeah, they have their structured skeleton and everything, but it's, I know that when I take histories, it's, I mean, I just, I mean, I spent an hour and a half of them the first time that I plan out the time and, um, listen to them through and I am typing at the same time partially, but I'll try to get all those parts out of them in the non-skeleton flow because I want the conversation to be good. Yeah. That's when you know you're good is when your history looks much more like a conversation. You know, there are those key points and the key points I talked about were that L L Q M S A T. Um, you have to hit those points. If you're going to interview somebody properly as a healthcare provider, but if you do it in a way that is caring and listening, they just seem like conversation pieces. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I might, and if I get the right impression, I might introduce somebody else's story. Like if John is in the room with me, but Steve has had a similar story, I'll be like, well, let me tell you about Steve. So Steve, Steve had leg pain, but it was going down both legs when I saw him a couple of weeks ago, uh, for the first time. Do you, are you doing, is it like Steve with you? Are you getting stuff down both legs or is it one leg? Oh no, no, no, no. It's just one leg. It's just one leg to my calf. You know, it's not robotic. Like, do you have leg pain, Mr. Jones? It's, it's a, it's a story or a conversation that kind of folds or unfolds. Um, and that can also be used as a tool to build rapport because you're like, Oh, so there's other people that have been here before that have been like me or, or worse off than me. That's a great, that's a great thing to let people know is like, there have been people here that have been worse off than you. You're going to be okay. Well, I do like to remember doing the email and, uh, it was funny that I, cause we emailed late and I was like, where did it, where the, I'm like, where the heck did me and Bobby get in contact with? And I'm like, Bob, what do you want to talk about? Right. And then you said you're good at storytelling. And, uh, I do agree. And, uh, but I, but I like it. I think when it comes to like patients coming in, I'm, I think it's, it's easier to pay attention to. And I think they're getting more rapport with your way like that rather than like a clinical robot, you know?

Well, it goes back to the original theme of this conversation. The stuff that you do, whether you think you do it good or not is going to be competent enough. And yes, I always encourage people to get better and better at whatever the tools are that you're using. You should be really good at whatever tool you have. Uh, you should, you should endeavor to be a master of whatever tools you use, but the tool is not the answer. The tool is just a tool, the vehicle and the vehicle is the communication is getting the person from point A to point B in a way that is nurturing to the patient that follows these rules of biopsychosocial pain that doesn't introduce the risk of a nocebo effect later on down the road. Uh, that doesn't include like fear-based care, scaring the crap out of people just so they lay face down on your table. Um, that is where the art is, is to, is to be the guide through that whole process. The clinical skill stuff is going to be fine. It's not, it's not as important or, or the way, uh, Brett Winchester put it in some other people who are sort of in that motion palpation camp. Um, they put it that people are coming out of school, very technique rich, but competency poor, you know, they've got all this knowledge because they've gone to so many of these different clubs and so many different, uh, seminars and certifications while they were students and they have no idea how to use them in the real world. Yeah. The opposite, like the old timers, they probably had one thing. They probably like pushed on bones, you know, and they made the bongo pop, but they had, they had so much time to think about how do I deliver that message?

Yeah. And we, and if you're evidence-based, yes, the straight chiropractic message doesn't appeal to you, but damn, it's so simple that patients can pick up on it. Like the patients in Louisiana and Shreveport and Indianapolis and Maine and all across the globe, Columbia, they pick up on this sort of thing, whether it's true or not, that this very simple explanation of what like chiropractic does, you know? Yeah. I think we, um, I, I had, I'd heard you say on a podcast or a YouTube thing, I forget which one it is now, but, um, actually I didn't, I, you said that create your own ending book and I actually use that reference today talking with a patient on the phone. And I honestly hate this question when they ask it, but it's cause the answer is always, it's very complicated and depends and it's hard to get through on the phone. Is this a, what are you going to get? What are we going to do in the physical exam? What are you going to do in the exam? I'm like, well, it's, it's kind of like what you, it's where you lead me a little bit, you know, it's like, it's not easy to explain and I don't know what's going to happen at the end. I'm sure you don't either, you know?

Yeah. Well, I've added tools. So I've definitely added ChiroUp to my toolbox because ChiroUp has these condition reports that you can print out and hand to the patient and they're pretty darn comprehensive and they do help with that social proof because it's something the patient can take home in their hands if you print it out or email to them. Um, and it has like your recommendations on there and stuff too. So, um, as far as exam go, like, that's a hard question for sure, but you can tell people almost like a, in a jiffy lube sort of way, like I've, I've seen it and I don't like how it looks, but I've seen people say, we have a 12 point inspection of your nervous system.

It's like, no, that's, you know, that takes the human element out, but I get what you're trying to do is trying to say that your, your exam process is very thorough. Why not just say I spend a lot of time with you on the first visit being very thorough to make sure that we've eliminated any red flags for a serious condition or disease that needs to be taken care of by a medical doctor or our specialist. And once we've gotten that out of the way, we're going to do an assessment of how you move, what hurts when you do it in all these different positions and ways that we can help and then try to decide which tools would be best for you. Uh, with the tools are tools that I use, then I'll recommend care in my office. If there are tools that somebody else uses, I might recommend their care instead. But before we get started, we're going to do a, we'll have a short conference about the procedures, your alternatives, the risks available, and then we can make a decision as a team, as a team, as a team. I like it. Um, so it's that old school, whatever that old school thing was like, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them or something like that. Yeah. Tell them like five times. Like all those old, whenever it comes to communication or dealing with people, it's already all been said. So it's not like there's no new way to say that stuff. You just have to say it enough that it clicks. Um, so, so that's like, I think that's a little bit of my legend. If there, if we go back to the legend of Bobby, maybe it's like, there's a lot of old school crap in there from being in the military and having drill sergeants yell at you, um, to being a basketball player in high school and having coaches yell at you. And there's a lot of like, for me, there's a lot of like, just do it. And Nike, you know, I live a couple blocks away from Nike and it's just like, just do it's everywhere. And it is, you just do it and you might screw up or you might not. And when you screw up, be honest about how you screwed up and don't do it that way again. And when you win, celebrate your wins. Um, and then eventually if you stay on that path and you're honest with yourself, uh, you'll, you'll screw up less as you go, or you'll almost start to see, okay, when I do this, I'm going to screw up. But if you predicted it, it doesn't hurt as much. Yeah. When you're unconsciously incompetent and you screw up and you're made consciously aware that you suck or whatever, it hurts a lot. Like, um, I tried standup comedy once. The first time I did it, I was awesome, super funny. And everyone's like, you're funny. You should do it again.

The second time I did it, I bombed and it was the most painful experience of my entire life. Cause you thought you were going to be good. Cause I thought I was going to be good. And I didn't know the things that I didn't know that I was doing wrong. And so when I did them wrong, I didn't expect it and it hurt. Um, opening up a new office from scratch, which I just did. I know there's going to be some mixups so I can, I can have a conversation like with that patient that is completely full of humility and just be like, yeah, we're human. You know, I'm figuring it out. Um, don't be afraid to mess up. You know, youngsters, youngsters. I think, yeah, I think this is actually going to be a good, uh, student one here, young doc one. But, um, so as we, as we start kind of tech, kind of close up a little bit, um, I, I had, I'd heard you mentioned since you've done a couple, uh, opening of clinics, what, what should a new doc expect when they're going to open a clinic? Like easy, hard?

Well, let me put it this way. Um, there is a, an author and he's not my favorite author in the world. Uh, he's definitely got his issues, but he's made some great points. His name is Robert Kiyosaki. He wrote rich dad, poor dad, a basic finance sort of book, uh, about financial mentality stuff. But he had another book called cashflow quadrant and the cashflow quadrant is just a, um, a, a four square. And in one square is E for employee. Another square is, um, um, S or, or no, I, I for independent contractor. Uh, another square is B for business owner. And another square is I for investor. So it's like employee, independent contractor, business owner, and then investor. And your duty as a professional is to first understand where you're at in that square.

So are you an independent contractor? Are you an employee? Are you a, are you a business owner? Or are you investing in some sort of project? So that's step one, once you've done that. So say you are an associate, uh, because we're still on the young person sort of thing. Now you need to understand all the rules of being an associate to be the best as an employee that you possibly can. Don't pretend when you're an associate that you are the business owner. Now all, all business owners will want you to take ownership opportunity. And we'll get to that in a second. But the first thing you got to do is be the best associate you could possibly be. So whatever square you land on, be the best at that, but understand that the square is progressive. So if you are an, uh, an employee, eventually you're going to have to learn the game of being an independent contractor potentially. So then you got to start studying up so that when you become an independent contractor, you can be the best at that you could possibly be, which is a different game, uh, that has different requirements. And then when you're a business owner, so when you go from independent to business and some people might go from employee to business owner, but either way, whatever square you're in, you got to do your best and understand that this, this progression in this profession is to go to follow that track from associate to being like, man, cause what? 99% of associateships fail because fail is a bad word. They're just, they're, they're not long-term solutions.

So then you're like, screw that. I'm doing this on my own, but you have no capital to start your own practice. So you become an independent contractor, rent a room or whatever. Uh, but you got to be very good at how to do that. And the very good is that, um, if you're not good at it, you know, like whoever owns the building and actually owns a practice is going to take a lot of your money. Yeah. Yeah. You don't know how to structure yourself tax wise or you're cheap. And you're like, I don't want to pay for a really good accountant. I'm just going to do like, uh, whatever turbo tax or whatever. You're going to eat a whole bunch of tax stuff and, um, and then eventually you become a business owner. Now on the other side, business owners.

So if we can switch to these guys who've been in the game for a while, so, all right, you've run through that whole game and now you're 10 years in practice, you're still paying off some student loan debt. Um, you've been an independent contractor or a business owner. You've kind of gone back and forth or whatever, but there's no exit strategy. There's no way out of the quadrant. So the way out of the quadrant is to eventually be investing in projects, maybe investing in real estate or, you know, there's some sort of investor side at the end, but you should never get into business. And chiropractic is a business without an exit strategy. And most students of course don't have that. And you can't blame them. They're just like, I just want a job.

I want to help people and I want to get paid to help people. And, but eventually at some point you got to start saying, how the hell do I get out of it? Because if you don't have a plan for getting out, you're getting out is going to be a blowing out a rotator cuff or, you know, like pushing down on someone and losing the triangular cartilage in your wrist and, or finding out that you have RA and you can't, you can't do this stuff anymore. You know? Yeah. We don't have those good disability policies anymore. I don't think. Yeah. And the disability policies aren't what they used to be. Nope. Nope. And, and, and that's not even a long-term solution as it was anyways.

So, uh, exit strategy is important. I think people understanding or having the humility understand that, um, when you're younger, a side hustle is not a bad idea. There's nothing wrong with a side hustle. Good. This is all good information. Actually, I need to figure out my exit strategy, Bobby. Yeah. And dude, that's not, I mean, that takes a lot of counseling. It probably takes a little bit of an investment in somebody who's a professional or a financial planner. Um, but no, you, I mean, if you, if you owned a bunch of sandwich shops, you wouldn't just be like, I'm going to just keep owning sandwich shops till the end. You would probably have some sort of plan like, okay, when do I sell all this? We can buy land. Well, it changes the way you behave, right? Yeah. Like instead of being like, okay, so I've got this clinic and I'm just going to treat here forever. Or it's like, I've got this clinic and I'm going to treat for 10 years. Now your behavior is different. She's like, I'm going to get somebody else in here and get them really good at their job and pay them well and pay them so well that eventually after that 10 years, they can buy it from me. And then you start to stop doing things like putting your own name on your practice door and you start naming it after something else. It's not your name because no one wants to buy your name. So you have, um, you know, yours, your practice isn't Gonzalez, uh, spine and sport or you're saying that should change this thing already. We should change. Yeah. Winchester spine and sport.

Yeah. Don't put a, don't put your name on your practice. There's such an ego. Yeah. There was somebody in our car, in our group that was like, so whatever they're in it. My husband and me, we're getting married and we're opening a practice. So Smith chiropractic, like that's good. Right. And everyone's like, no. Yeah. Why not? Cause it's your name. It's not patient centric either. Yeah, it's not, it doesn't, it gives nobody any idea of who you are. It makes you a commodity, Smith or Jones or Stevenson or, and then you want to sell that to somebody. And if their name isn't Smith too, you've just lost a ton of value because they, and there's another thing to that too. So if it was Gonzalez chiropractic and you had, you've, you finally worked your way up to an associate, getting an associate in your office and a new patient walks in, like say one of these drivers who's like, I need this fixed and I need it fixed now. And they look around and your associate walks in and they're like, who are you? Well, I'm the associate. I'm Michael Johnson. Well, where's Sebastian Gonzales? Uh, he's, you know, he's, he, he found a way to work two days a week. You know, he's not here. I'm the guy who's going to take care of you and your associates better than you. The associates are always better doctors. They're always better clinicians.

And that, that guy, that driver, that patient's like, no, no, no, I want the name. I want the guy with the name on the door. So you've automatically anyone that you bring into your office who you might potentially want to buy the place, or you might want them to take over most of the patient load. You've automatically devalued them in the patient's eyes because they don't have their names, not on the shingle, you know, right. You know, you might run into this too with like, uh, I've run into this before I had an associate at one time and this, this did happen. And, um, but it was mainly because all of the, uh, uh, the online content was mine and I was the face. And so that was another mistake that, I mean, I think I would change that again if I, that's a good point. Yeah. Well, what else could you do though? I mean, you know, it was your content at that time. Right. So yeah, the old content, I don't think you could do anything with, but, um, I don't know if you, have you seen the run experience before? So, um, Nate was, I was talking to Nate on here before and, uh, I said, I noticed that you're not a lot of videos anymore. And, uh, he's, he's like, yeah, we need to spread our coaches out a little bit, you know? So, so we can drop a little bit more into the back. And I thought that's, that's a good idea. Well, here's what happens. And this is the other answer. And this is probably a better answer for the middle to end, uh, end range chiropractor, not, not just the newbie, but it can save a newbie a lot of pain in the process is like most of, most of these guys, most of us are on an island, you know, like you, you have your practice, you're producing your content. You might take a couple of courses here or there or learn some things, but you don't talk to anybody else. The, the importance of having some sort of mastermind group or a group of people that you talk to, to either bounce ideas off of, or to get new ideas or for somebody to look you straight in the eyes and be like, your content is great, but it's all you. And if you're not there, you're going to lose value or, or what, you know, to have somebody give you honest feedback is very important. So, um, I think I tripled my, not, I didn't triple my income. I tripled my net worth within two or three months of finding a competent mastermind group. Really? Like the whole, the whole thing.

Where'd you find a mastermind group? Like, like you're doing that wrong and you should focus on this part instead of that part. And when you say that, you don't say it well enough. So maybe you should take a Toastmasters course and learn how to talk appropriately. And, uh, you know, like people calling you out on your stuff and, and also, uh, uh, uh, giving you praise when you do something good and then sharing ideas and all this stuff. So, uh, not that mastermind groups are easy to find, but they're definitely out there. You just have to ask. Did you find same industry or different? We have in our mastermind group, I think it's predominantly Kairos. And then there's a PT.

And then there's one person who's an expert in, uh, internet marketing. Are you the one that, are you in the one that Kevin's in? Yep. Got it. Yeah. He did have good things to say about that and traveling to Jamaica. Was that the thing? They, oh, they, we were going to travel to, we're in a, we're in a version 2.0 now. So there's no traveling planned yet, but in version 1.0, they were going to go to Colorado. That's the same as Jamaica, right? Like close. It depends on the time of year, huh? Both of them have, I think, certain things that are legal within their borders. Right. Well, I think you can do anything back in a Manatee Springs. So I think you're, that's right, man. That's right. So, um, and, and Kevin's seen tremendous value and, you know, there, there's, there's a lot of good that can come from a networking group that is not, there's not, um, tied down by like PC culture or, you know, you gotta have like, it's gotta, it can't be too friendly. Like you can't be besties with everybody in there.

Right. But you have to be able to be, you have to be able to let your guard down within the place. So if, if people are too, um, sensitive or if they expect too much professionalism that you can't speak the truth within the group, then you're going to have trouble. But, um, I think I'm sure you do pretty well in there then. Yeah. You know, since you know, Kevin and you know, some of the other people, you know, that they're not, I mean, they're chiros by trade, but they have these other talents or these other abilities that make them more than Cairo, you know, like you can, for Kevin Christie, even though he's a great chiropractor, like the marketing stuff is that he understands is unreal, you know? So, so he can, you know, like everyone's got a special talent.

Like if, if, if somebody listening to this started a mastermind group and it was all clinical skills, like every single person in there was like ART, LMNOP, QRST, you wouldn't get anywhere because you guys are all speaking the same language and there's no challenge there. Um, which is one of the things we see in the chiropractic Facebook group, you know, there's 6,000 people in there, but it's a hive mind. They're all evidence-based guys. So if somebody steps in there and says something challenging, they're like, ah, my brain, you can't say that. And, uh, you know, echo chambers are, they do get a rough, they do get a rough treating these days because, you know, in politics and news, we see people who live in echo chambers and it's not good to only listen to your own type of voice or advice. You want to hear the opinions of others. Um, but sometimes echo chambers are exactly what we need to, to, to know that the ideas that we do have are, are worthwhile. So what we found with the forward thinking chiropractic Alliance was there were so many rehab based and evidence-based chiropractors that just were getting the, in social media, they were just getting their butts kicked, you know, like that's what you're a want to be PT. Why didn't you go to medical school, get out of here. You don't understand the principles and the philosophy. And then they found this group and realized, um, there is no philosophy. There's, there is philosophy. And if you want to study a philosophy of life, that's great, but there's no philosophy of our profession. Those were, those were called rules. Those were called like party line rules.

Well, I wonder at what point then we're like the, the word chiropractor will run synonymous with, um, you know, what's going on in your group or if it'll always be an outside. No. Right. So, so we had this interesting thing with the students at Southern, at your alma mater, uh, S U S C us or whatever, as a high school, high school, it's a large, it was a large high school at some point. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big campus. Um, which has always been reputation wise, like when I graduated in the mid two thousands as an evidence-based school that was really strongly evidence-based and rehab based. And there, you know, like in the nineties, the educators decided we needed to create these clinician practitioner practitioners that understood research. So anyone who's been out in practice for like 10 years or so, they were really exposed to a lot of research and they were also taught how to consume research pretty well. I don't know what happened after that, but for some reason that the breaks were taken off of that idea. And now there's more of a push or an idea of academic freedom. And I don't know if that's a cultural thing or not, but I do know from interviewing Todd Riddle, they, they do have to go through specific protocols for how they teach millennials because millennials don't respond to criticism very well. Um, but our generation, that, that was how you did it. You'd criticize the hell out of somebody and then they, they stopped doing the dumb thing that they were doing. I think millennials right now, I guess they'd be the ones in the chiropractic school, right? Most of them. They'd be the ones in the chiropractic school. 25 year olds or so. Yeah. And, um, so, so now there's more of a push towards quote unquote academic freedom, which is more like the colleges are saying these kids can learn and study whatever they would like to kind of make up their own minds about what's important to the profession or not. And it was like, wait, what? Did that do that in medical school?

Boundaries on that. It's more of like, um, it fits in with the political environment a little bit, you know, like there's, there's this more rigid thinking of like you, I guess you would call that wing thinking like this is the way it's supposed to be. There's a sort of like a, a left or wing sort of thinking of like, it can be whatever it wants. We're going to take the, the male and the female symbols off the bathroom and you can decide whatever you want. They're, they're still there at SU by the way. I was there a couple months ago. See, all right. All right. So we saw a couple of students that when we would let them into the group and they would see this in evidence-based conversation. So inside my group, there's no conversations about vaccination. There's no conversation. I mean, there's philosophical conversations, but not about like the 33 principles or the green books or this old school chiropractic stuff. BJ Palmer is not lauded as a hero.

He's just another one of the people who contributed to the great history of this profession. And these kids are like, well, where's the unity where you guys don't allow the other guys to say their opinion in here. No, no, we don't. Well, what about unity? There is no unity. What we tend to think might happen is if we draw this line and we, we distinguish this type of chiropractic as a commitment to excellence and an excellent way to take care of patients that eventually everybody might choose this as the way to be. This is the way a chiropractor should operate. A chiropractor should have an excellent evaluation process, be very competent at the tools they use conservatively and holistically to help somebody be very patient oriented. Um, and then at the end, give a great deal, a great value for the service they provide and get results without like the things I said before, without scaring the crap out of patients without putting the profession or the business first and all that other stuff.

Yeah. I know there is a lot of, there's a lot of people that, I mean, you got 6,000 in that group, but I feel like even strength coaches and you know, people like within that fitness realm, I feel like they're kind of on the same grounds of like agreeing that way. But you know how you said earlier that the potato was the, was the way to go for that, of that lady, grandma said so. I don't even know unless we get like generations beyond when the people right now who are being treated that way are going to be the ones that pass down to their grandchildren that this is what kind of care they wanted. So the, the profession is going to be fine. I mean, I think there's always some sort of air of fear because like we don't get the respect from the MDs or PTs are now doing mobilizations or they're going to take over. The profession's going to be just fine as long as the people within it, uh, put, put on a good show. You're going to be, you know, smaller than those people, smaller than the PT lobby. You know, they're, they're always going to have more money, but there always was always that joke. Like it's never been a greater time to be a chiropractor. And it's like in school, anyone who would walk up as a speaker, it's never been a greater time to be a chiropractor. And you're like, no, it's not.

This is like the worst time. No, what about the Mercedes 80s? I want, I want the 80s, man. But we're getting to the point again where for a long, long time, there has not been a better time to be a chiropractor, you know, with, with people doing their job, like Greg Rose at the Titleist Performance Institute building that name. I mean, he's got 8,000 athletes that he treats, you know, on his team, you know, the Titleist team has thousands of athletes. You've got people in major league baseball and, uh, every NFL team has a chiropractor and, um, you know, the, the opioid crisis is a negative, but our solution to it is a positive. If we manage that properly, um, and help people in this, this epidemic that's happening that no one's talking about. That back pain epidemic, the back pain epidemic. Yeah. Which what, what is one of the supermarket stops for these folks with back pain is that it was, uh, opioid treatment. And, um, you hear these stories here in Portland, Oregon. Um, it was a tragedy, but there was a guy who was not mentally, he was not mentally fit. He was mentally ill person. Um, and he stabbed two men on the commuter train and they died. And one of the guys, while he was dead on the train, um, with his handout, somebody stole his wedding ring off of his corpse and ran off with it. And the news, they were trying to find the guy because that's like, that's super heinous. That's, you know, that's bad news, but they found the guy who stole the wedding ring. And so they got the ring back for the family and all that, but they told the guy's story in the news. And it was, it was like, he was a normal guy with a normal job. One point he hurt himself. I think on the job, hurt his back or his shoulder. It was some sort of injury. I think it was a back injury. If I'm, if I remember right, went to the doctor, got a prescription for opioids to help with his back, got addicted to the opioids. And the next thing you know, he's a crackhead stealing wedding rings off of dead people. That's a slippery slope, right? Not everybody ends up like that, but that guy, where would the difference be if he had some conservative care along the way?

Right now, who knows? Maybe he did and it failed him, or maybe they didn't try it enough. Maybe he was in Kaiser and they only gave him three visits and he really needed like eight. Thanks Kaiser. They do that all the time. Who wants to name names though, right? You know, it goes both ways. So it's not Kaiser's fault. They make their, their prescriptions for three chiropractic visits. It's the chiropractor's fault for not educating Kaiser enough that the guidelines say six to eight visits on a first trial. You know, so you get people sometimes in these insurance plans with referrals from an MD and the MD is like, ah, yeah, go there three times and come back. Well, that's not what the guidelines say.

And the guidelines are what the evidence says. And the evidence says six to eight, whose fault is it that the MD doesn't know that? Is it the MD's fault partially? But they don't know. Is it our fault for not going to these people and educating them and being professional enough and presentable enough and putting it forth the image that we are doing the, we're having this conversation for the betterment of the community and the patient, not for the benefit of our businesses. Cause you can smell that stuff. You can smell, um, usually a straight chiropractor who's doing a, uh, a cold call on a physician or what, you know, they're trying to drum up business. You know, they know that if somebody cold called you like from a, uh, a company that's, that's selling some sort of product, you know why they're calling. And it's like, but if that person was like, look, you know, we found that this has a profound effect in public health realms, you would probably listen a little bit more than if you just thought like they're just trying to drum up business. So, um, even if I named Kaiser, I gotta be nice because I'm on the Kaiser panel providers, closed, closed panel. It's not their fault.

It's a tight network around everywhere, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's my fault for not going up to Kaiser and knocking on the door and saying, who can I sit down with and talk to? And I've tried, but that's a, that's a tight, uh, that's a tight group to try to get into. Yeah. I know that I've, I've thought, um, quite a few times like around here that there's, um, I get a little frustrated sometimes just, um, when I hear about like, so I had T I played baseball still. I played a Sunday and I had four teammates of 12 that had a flexion intolerant back pain. One of them hurt his back swinging baseball. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And this is like rec league. They're 45, you know, like, and, uh, they, they tell me all the things they're doing. And like one guy, like it's literally between innings, like, and, and I'm grabbing my glove and he's not playing. And I'm like, what's going on? I want you playing. He's like, Oh, I got this thing. And he describes it. And I'm like, huh? Okay. I got a lot of things I want to tell you right now. But, um, I'm like, is it going okay? And he's like, well, I've been icing and heating and I'm like, Oh my God. I'm like, I don't know who gave these recommendations, but so around here rather than bitch about it, I, I go out and I, I send out, um, some of the, an introductory of myself as well as some, some of the research pulled from McGill's book and a card that was basically is five, five of a postural modifications that these MDs can hopefully give to their, to their patients. Cause I'm sick and tired of my teammates getting crappy suggestions, you know? So it's just a, it's yeah.

It's, um, it's a hard world, you know? Yeah. You don't have the cultural authority and that that's just kind of how it works. I mean, you either build it or you work your way around it. Um, I had a, I had an advantage, uh, for seven years I practiced with an MD. So obviously he had the cultural authority and then he would tell the people, look the patient in the eye and be like, you are going to the chiropractor, uh, who's in the room next door. And they'd be like, well, you're the MD and you told me to do it. Okay. And he, and he would have, that's how it started. And then eventually, um, he was like, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. He's, he's whatever he would say. He's really good. Or he can figure this stuff out and I can't, he's the person you have to be with. And then I started to get my own cultural authority, but, um, patients, you know, they don't know anything. They don't know any, they have no idea.

All they hear from is, uh, friends, families, fathers, teachers, whatever they hear around them. This is what they take. Um, but they, they don't know who to choose when it comes to this stuff, like the garden variety, flexion extent, flexion intolerant low back. They have no idea. So is it safe to say they all blew a disc, you know? Right. Or it'll just go away if they leave it alone. Yeah. They'll just never do that again. Or they're like, Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm old. It's just cause I'm old. Yeah. I, I actually, I really hate that one. I think it's defeating. It's the most defeating thing. Cause you're not going to reverse time. Right. Um, so they're all walking around with it. They are. Um, and in Italy they do it a lot and they seem like, they seem okay. Dynamic systems theory. Um, the, so as we're, as we're closing up the legend of Bobby, maybe, uh, where can everyone find the Facebook group? Uh, you talked about masterminds and I know you have a book that I think that I saw on OTP. Uh, the, the thing on OTP is a lecture. It's a communication lecture.

Mm-hmm. I think, I think that's what's on there is it was just a short, uh, we go through this model of how to communicate a value. So I think that's the title of it is like communicating value to your patients or something like that. I recorded that a long time ago. Is it going to be the same stuff we went over today? It's a little bit, but it's more detail and there's like exercises to go through. So how to use words or communicate to people what they get out of it, like your treatment or your business or whatever. So there's some exercises in there. It's sort of like a, what do you do is on one line and then what, what, how does that value the patient in the next line? And then how would you say that to them? So you sell pillows. Great. Okay. You sell pillows. What does that person get out of your pillow? And then you have to actually think about it like, Oh, I never really thought about it. I just sold pillows because the insurance company reimburses me in the, in the motor vehicle accidents. That's not patient centered. That was your business. That was you. That was you.

You got to understand why the patient would want soft tissue work. What is their value for that? So it makes a person list out all the things that they do and what does the patient value out of it? And then you can sort of be like, Oh, well maybe I need to throw that piece out or, or whatnot, or be better at talking about it. So, um, that's in movement lectures. Um, there's another book that's coming out. So there's two books coming out. One is, um, for my podcast, uh, all, uh, Tim Ferriss tools of Titans. I have a transcriptionist at the end of each season transcribe each interview, and then I'll take the nuggets from each interview and make an ebook or a publication out of that. So we just finished the first season and I just started writing that last night. And then there's a second book, as I mentioned before, Jordan Peterson, uh, clinical psychologists from Toronto. He wrote a book called 12 rules of life.

Uh, recently I took that those, that book is great by the way. So if anyone wants to read 12 rules of life, I highly recommend it. Um, I took Jordan Peterson's 12 rules of life and made 10 of them because 10 is a better number than 12. Um, but really I just took two out because they had to do with children. But when you read Jordan Peterson's book, it, it relates so much to the chiropractic profession or to the chiropractor, like not just how to be as a person, but as a professional or as a profession. So I took those 10 rules and made it like the 10 rules of chiropractic life, like how you should walk and talk and be, um, it's written on a tablet. Please tell me. Yeah. Right. On like stone, right? Well, there, there were 15, what is that from that, uh, that spoof movie? There were 15 rules, but I dropped one of the tablets and it broke. So now there's only 10. Wait, that's not, uh, that's not that British one. Got it. It wasn't Monty Python. It was the guy who would do like, uh, blazing saddles and I forget his name. Uh, the 10 commandments was the movie though. And I think he had 15 commandments. He dropped one at shattered and he's like 10 commandments. Um, so that'll come out. Those will come out whenever I'm done. Um, there, there's no legend here. I think I've just made a lot of, I've been honest with myself as much as possible. Um, I've been this guy for a long time.

Like when I walked across the stage graduating, I was just a piss ant. I wanted to change the whole thing. I wanted to tear the whole system down. And there were a bunch of old guys around me who at that point, you know, they can't anymore. They're, they're at the top of the hierarchy. If they make noise, they lose their positions. They were always like, you can do it, go for it. And now I realized that they were just using me the whole time to disrupt the system. They wish that they could disrupt as well. The puppeteer, our system, the way we do this needs to be disrupted. We, we know this, we know that it needs to be broken up. So I created the forward thinking chiropractic Alliance. Uh, that should be very easily found on Facebook. Um, it has a website for thinking, chiro.com, which is more content oriented. And that's where you can find the podcast as well, even though it's on iTunes and Stitcher and all that. Um, and then me and Kevin Christie are coming out soon with what's called the chiropractic success Academy. It's just a membership site, um, a pay to play membership site that has all, it's basically from Kevin's modern chiropractic marketing Facebook group, uh, which has, I think almost 3000 people in it. And my group that has 6,000 people, there has been a lot of things talked about. So we consider ourselves curators of knowledge and we're not trying to be gurus. We're trying to organize that knowledge in a way that can benefit chiropractors in some sort of way. And, uh, so that chiropractic success Academy is, is basically like a YouTube channel that has four, four channels on it.

One channel is only about marketing. One channel is only about business. Uh, one channel is only about clinical skills and, uh, research and clinical based stuff. And then the fourth channel is about you, the person, the doctor, the individual, and getting your mind and your body, right? So you have balance in your life and all that sort of stuff. Nice. Um, when's that coming out? Uh, we're going to launch it July 9th. So we've got like a little less than two weeks or depending on when this podcast comes out and then the, the full, like that's, that's like a, Hey, we're, that's when we're going to announce, we're doing it interest. And then in August, it's going to go, go live.

Well, we're out, we're out on a August 1st on this one. Yeah. So perfect. It'll be a couple days after you hear this, that the, uh, chiropractic success Academy, that's that the URL circle.com will be ready to go. What's the, what's the URL again? It is C S a circle. Wait, it's actually a circle. It's not just a O. Yeah. It's, it's the, the, the letter circle. Cause we want you to be in the inner circle, right? Of course. Of course. Secret inner circle. Um, and, and tons of other like values to that. So all of Kevin's stuff that he does, his virtual marketing events, um, his membership groups and all that, you get access to that. The forward thinking chiropractic stuff, you get membership to that. You know, we just sort of, it's like a Voltron. Oh, perfect. We take two, two different monsters and we combine them into one mega monster. Yeah. If anyone hasn't, uh, heard your podcast, they definitely need to do some good stuff on there. But Kevin's stuff is definitely, um, it's, uh, it's, I don't want to say obscure. It's like, you're like, you hear from like a Facebook marketing person. And so it's things where like, you don't really get it. And in school.

And I, I love, I love that. I think we need stuff is like chunky, right? You can hold it in your hand. You can chew it and like use it. Yeah. And my stuff is more like maybe like ephemeral or, or ideal it's ideal type stuff. The podcast, my podcast, we're just talking trash. It's just open. Yeah. I heard a few of them. I was like, man, man, am I going to have to bleep a couple of these ones out here? No, I didn't. I didn't cuss at all, you know, but those, some of those have the E rating and some of those guys, they, they, uh, this has been the first time in a lot of people's lives where they've had a platform to say what they want to say about the profession and not feel backlash. And that's how my group started was I was, there was nowhere on social media for you to just sort of talk about rehab or research or McGill as a chiropractor or any of that stuff.

Because as soon as you brought that stuff up in any of the other social media groups, the straight chiropractors would just jump on you. They would just attack and they would blacklist you and they would ban you and block you. And they would say, you know, why didn't you go to medical school? You're not one of us. And they would just denigrate you. So one guy was like, look, I think you're really bright. And I think you're onto something. And he was a straight chiropractor. He was like, I can't let you in my group at all. I have to throw you out of my group. Why don't you start your own group? All right.

You should send him a Christmas card then maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I really do appreciate that guy. And I think he's very bright. And, and, um, I think he's, we still respect each other every now and again, we'll send like a little private message. It's like, I saw what you did there, but he is responsible. Cause at the time there was like 50, 25 of us in the group. I don't think any of them ever expected that it would go to 6,000 and is like, you know, we, we grow by 5% a month. Yeah. Nice. Students can get in, right? Students can get in. Students get in easier than regular doctors. Okay. Students get leeway moldable. You don't know what they are. And they, they tainted you with that idea of academic freedom that we have to untaint you from. Um, well, right on. So yeah, there's no, there's no legend. I've just done a lot of stuff. I think we brought this additional path to where I am right now. We, you brought this a podcast full circle. I feel like it's when I, when I started, I thought we were going to talk about Ricky Bobby quite a bit, but this, this came, this came right back. Well, we're doing this in video, but they're only hearing the audio, but this whole time, I'm like, I don't know what to do with my hands. Yeah. I usually just start sucking on this microphone over here. Yeah. I got to make sure that pop screen helps a lot. No, no, no. Um, is there anything you want to add before you close up or? Um, no, no, no. I just, I don't, I mean, I have to walk a very thin line because I think I've got some ideas and hopefully I motivate people to be the best that they can be, but please don't think that I have anything that you don't, or that I'm some sort of guru or, I mean, I have an alter ego, the greatest chiropractic consultant ever. It's a spoof video thing that's on Facebook and YouTube. And if you look that up, I I'm constantly making fun of these guys that are trying to put themselves out as gurus who know something you don't. I don't think I know anything that anyone else doesn't know. I actually try to surround myself with people that are much smarter than me because that's how you get better in life.

Um, uh, and I just try to be as humble as I can in the process. And then, um, but when you feel something, I hope chiropractors, these younger folks and the ones who sort of lost it as they're older, they can remember along the way that when you feel something that means you're supposed to act like when, when, when you feel that thing in your chest or your gut, that means that was your body. That was you telling you that's the thing you need. So one of Jordan Peterson's rules for life is to do what is meaningful in your life, not what is expedient. So, uh, all of you, I mean, what's expedient is making sure that the student loan bills are paid and that the lights stay on and that you can feed your family. I get it, but you've also got to always pursue what's meaningful. Um, and, and hopefully to some degree at some point, you guys can all get into your 15th year of practice or whatever and realize maybe what's meaningful is spending an hour and a half with somebody on the first visit and listening to them. Uh, what would be expedient is just doing five minutes, right? Right.

You know, so do what is right and do what has meaning and do what matters to your community and, and, and, and be better and commit yourself to excellence, not just commit yourself to, uh, these, these cultural things like making money. Well, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on. This was a, it's a long time coming. Yeah. You know, it was really brave of you. I know you don't, you didn't know, you didn't expect, you know, you didn't know what to expect. And, uh, that's, that's kind of what, what, what we're set up for, but I promise that I aim to deliver for your people. You did a great job. FTCA convention. They didn't know what to expect because the, the Facebook group is terrifying. Like it's so the re the talk is so real in there that it gets nasty sometimes or dark, but it's real. So when Cleveland, uh, approved this, uh, convention thing, uh, he showed up cause he didn't, he thought we were just going to be bashing, straight chiropractors and it was going to get ugly and it was going to be negative.

And then he realized that we are the smart ones and we are also the passionate ones. Like we have a lot of passion hidden inside of all this rehab and clinical thinking that we do. We're really passionate about it too. And, and Carl Cleveland stayed for the whole damn weekend. It was like, well, you guys do this here again next year. This was awesome. This was like one of the best things I've ever seen. Did you say in San Diego, you're going to do this next year in San Diego? We will not announce where we're doing it next year. Um, but it's probably not San Diego, but that would be awesome. But Cleveland is looking to, to purchase. Apparently there's a school for purchase, a campus that's for purchase in San Diego somewhere. And he would like to buy it and start a Cleveland chiropractic college in San Diego. Sounds like insider trading information. You find that school, you buy land around it and we're going to buy it. We're going to make some condos where it is.

And, uh, and for, for 99, 99, you can too. Um, yeah, thanks for having me. I'll come on anytime, man. Yeah. Thank you so much. Absolutely. I appreciate your podcast. Um, you talk about stuff that other people don't, and that's, that'll make a difference. It's hard to talk about clinical stuff. It, it is hard. I hope that, um, I mean, I've learned a ton over the course of time, like, and, uh, I, um, there's been quite a few podcasts where I'll go in and like, I have to do a ton of research in the beginning, like, and, uh, I, lo and behold, I get a nugget quite a few times through it. So I've become better. Yeah. I know, you know, we don't get paid to do these podcast things. It's there's something else to it. Um, yeah, I don't think we have time, but there's the world is changing and people want to hear long conversations and they want to hear, uh, people talk in depth about things, not just these news bites that they're, they used to hear on the news and TV. So, um, you know, keep doing what you're doing. And one day, you know, it's like 10 listeners here, a hundred listeners here, maybe you get 500 to a thousand or whatever, but one day it hits like a stratosphere and it just goes, um, exponential on you and yours will just keep doing it. I hope so. You're nice enough. You're smart enough. And gosh, darn it. I like you. Thanks Bobby. Nice. Thanks so much, Bobby for being on. That was amazing. So if everyone's looking to find Bobby, uh, forward thinking chiropractic Alliance is probably the easiest way to find him. Just Google that.

You'll find the Facebook group. You'll find the page. You'll find the, uh, they had a conference this year in 2018. Um, that I heard went really well that he said went really well. Um, and lastly, he does that, that podcast too. So you can just type up on iTunes forward thinking chiropractic. It'll probably come up pretty, pretty entertaining stuff. I've listened to quite a few of them and he's got some great guests on as well. So, uh, yeah, if you're looking for the show notes again on that type up Bobby, maybe that's maybe with two E's on my website, p2sportscare.com. And there's the search function right there. Massive search function. The site is over 250, uh, well over 250 pages by now. And I think we're on, we're on podcast number 90, 98. So we've got a ton of good stuff coming out, I think. So I still think it's helpful. I hope it's helpful for you guys. Um, but yeah, I think that's all I have to say for now. So be good to each other. I'll talk to you guys next week. See ya.