Why safe strength training beats endless corrective exercise

And so active care leads into strength training, performance type of approaches. And so that's essentially where it led me. And I started incorporating a lot more strength conditioning type of stuff because if we're really meeting people where they are, a lot of people don't even need corrective exercise per se, like ground movements and simple stuff. A lot of people just need really good, safe training, right? And so having a quality understanding of exercise science and strength conditioning allows us to really meet people where they are and get them towards their goals faster in a safe manner.

You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey, everyone. It's Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host for the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. If this is your first time, welcome. Glad to have you here and glad you're going to spend the next roughly about an hour with me. And today, a guest. We have Dr. Ben Ramos, who is a chiropractor down in San Diego, sunny San Diego area. So everyone likes flying into San Diego for stuff.

So I was introduced to Ben Ramos by a couple people, actually. One is the co-host or serial co-host, Dr. Cody D-Mac, as well as Eric Reese, who was on a while back. I should probably have him back one day. I think it was around like number 40-something or so. So I thought Ben was going to be a really good person to have on in regards to talking about kind of learning skills over time. And actually, let me retract real quickly. If you're a clinician and you've jumped onto this thing and this is your first time, just know that there's a variety of topics that we do cover. We went through a spurt of business management stuff over recently.

I tend to interview a lot of guests who are experts, as well as, I would say, hidden gems. And I would say Ben is a really good hidden gem. If you're a patient and you're onto this, I tend to use a lot of these podcasts as ways to blend the lingo that medical people use and that you use. So I think we can do a better job of kind of bringing down the techie aspect and not seeming like we're talking over people's heads and make better analogies and relate it to what you experience more. But also, too, leveling you up and a little bit of understanding is going to be helpful for you understanding some of these analogies because it's hard to break down complex things into simple things sometimes.

And that takes a whole different skill. So I'm hoping that you also are going to learn something from this podcast here. I apologize. Some of the other ones are a little bit more condition friendly. This one's a little bit more of a broad overview of just education. So hang in with me there. And I think you guys will still get something from this. So when we go into the interview with Ben, I thought he would provide a really good experience and share some knowledge based upon what he found in his continuing education journey. And he hasn't been out of school in an extremely long time. But the interesting thing about him is that he took a ton of continuing education when he was in school.

And I'd venture to say that probably over the course of him being, you know, through the profession, he's probably taken more content hours than me. And I've been out of the school for about 10 years now at the time of this recording anyways. So it's interesting to see when you go through that many courses, you kind of get the shuffle through of what's productive and what's not and what you would use and what you wouldn't use in certain situations. So he's got a lot of good experience in that. So I thought as some of you have emailed me and asked, hey, what do I take next? I thought this would be a really good topic for him to go through.

Now, just so you guys do know ahead of time, we are launching, Ben is actually a partner of mine as well as Philip Snell in what we call one of the best things to come to the chiropractic profession in, I'd say, the last 10 years here. And this is going to be an amazing online continuing education course. And I know that if any of you are like me, you get to the point where your birthday is about coming. You think, I don't have a time, I don't have time to go to one of these seminars right now because they're, you know, you got to book a book, a flight, go to a hotel, pay thousands of dollars to go to one of these ones where you feel like you're going to learn something really useful.

And then you also lose on clinic money too. So what we attempted to do is actually take some of the best presenters that we could find on certain topics and surround a certain condition. And in this case, it's going to be flexion intolerant back issues, or we might say, aka disc injuries, which is a common thing that we all really see. And we wanted to get people to cover different avenues so you guys can comprehensively feel like these back cases are simple. I thought I would just frame that in the beginning here because full disclosure, if you do buy the course, we do get money. But we're trying to dabble and get you guys to uncover some of the maybe hidden tools you didn't know existed.

I learned a lot through this course, actually, because I was making the questions on the other end. But I thought as you guys would go through this course, you would think, think of them as little snippets, like a little flight, a beer flight of figuring out which course you want to go into next. So before we go into interviewing Ben Ramos, I'm going to share a personal story with you again. Now, I don't know if you guys have some odd smells that you really like. And I know I've heard some people really like the smell of gasoline. And they just love that stuff. I don't know why they love that shit.

But I would think that actually one that kind of takes me back is that we had this old vacuum cleaner growing up. I remember it was beige and brown. And I don't remember what type it was, but it wasn't very efficient. And it was old. And we had to keep changing the belt on the darn thing. And by the way, you remember when vacuum cleaners had bags on them? Like, they don't have bags anymore. At least I haven't seen them. So we had this old burnt up belt all the time. So I would actually volunteer to vacuum the house because the smell of this belt was just intoxicating. Like, it was, I mean, I can remember the smell now.

Like, none of the vacuums that I've had since probably the age of 15 has the same smell to it. But I wouldn't say it smelled clean. It smelled like burning rubber. And it's not the same as when you do burnouts or whatnot. But yeah, that's just one smell that I can recognize it if you had another vacuum cleaner like that. So I'm on the hunt for the perfect vacuum cleaner to have that perfect smell. Just not enough to, like, knock you out and, like, you know, get you to go to a coma, but just enough to give you that little hint of childhood, you know? Like, you know how, like, you have McDonald's and it doesn't really taste good.

It just tastes like McDonald's. It just tastes like mustard and pickles and ketchup, that big conglomerate mess that they have on that hamburger. So you got those unique smells and tastes, huh? What's your unique smell? Think about it. Let's get into the content. All right, everyone. Welcome on. Benjamin Ramos. Ramos? Yes. I like to say Ramos. I know you do. I like to say Gonzalez. Hey, so last night when we were texting back the word Cody back and forth, did you just have no more creative ways to say Cody or no? I had a million other ways, but I was just sparing you the time. I had, like, 10 other things I was going to text you.

And I had the time to do it, but I decided not to. So if I would have just blasted you with a couple more, would you have responded back, maybe? Yeah, absolutely. Matter of fact, I would have enjoyed the volley. It would have been great. Nice. So for everyone who doesn't know you, this is Benjamin. I'll let him speak about who he is, but I thought I'd have him on a little bit. He's a partner of mine in the online CE course that we're putting on, and he's just a wealth of knowledge with a bunch of random shit. So typically, a bunch of the stuff that I've learned through seminars, I say, hey, Ben, what course do I go to?

And he always has a gold nugget. So let's let Ben say what's going on. Yeah. So Ben Rommels, I'm a chiropractor. I graduated in December 2015. Just a bit of a nerd when it comes to continuing education and trying to just get as good as I can at this, like the rest of us, right? We just all want to learn as much as we can, and that's practically valuable, and it'll help the people we work with the best we can. So as a result, I was in a lucky scenario where I was able to attend a whole lot of continuing education while I was in school. And then also after school, the connections I made when I was in school, I ended up doing a lot of hosting, and just a whole lot of con ed after school as well.

What was the first seminar you went to, actually? Like the one that wasn't actually required for you to show up? You mean like in school? Well, I know you took a bunch in school. You took like, how many hours did you take when you're in school, actually? I think I took like, while I was in school, I took like 40 plus con ed courses, like actual con ed courses, maybe like eight or nine of those were conferences, right? Like perform better? Rehab symposium, yeah, perform better, you know? So yeah, maybe like 10 of those were conferences. But the first course that I took was Craig Liebenson's in San Francisco.

I was like in fourth quarter. I was still in the basic sciences. Like I remember because I had a microbiology test on Monday coming back from it. And but yeah, the first one I went to is Craig Liebenson's in San Francisco, Justin Dean. That's where I met Philip Snell. That's where I met the other partner in this thing. I met Philip Snell there. I met Michael Runtala. I met Daniel Michael Lord. I met Marianne Harrington or Marianne DMAC, right? I think here's a hyphen now. Right, yeah. So that's where I met. I met all them. Justin Dean took me down there. That was my first course that I actually went to.

What was that the Liebenson's course actually that, because in fourth term, or sorry, fourth quarter, what do you really do with any of that stuff? You can't really, you don't touch anybody yet. No, you're not. But it was good because it kind of, it was the launching pad for me to start looking into that stuff a lot more. And by the time we did start working on people and learning the more clinical based sciences, I was already, in my opinion, I was ahead of the curve based on where they wanted us to be. I still had a lot to go after, right, obviously. But it really, and it also helped prepare me for where I wanted to go and practice and what kind of stuff I wanted to learn and how I wanted to approach it.

Because before that, I was like, I was kind of on the typical sports chiro trajectory, right? Like, um, just ART, you know, um, and it, it pretty much ART and adjusting athletes, right? Um, I knew strength training and stuff like that was important, but I didn't have as much of a, uh, as much influence or mentorship in that regard. And then when I went to that course, that's when it really opened it up for me. And that's when I first started getting involved with R2P as well. Well, I think in like, even now is, is Liebenson's only kind of the only one that addresses like, uh, a lot of corrective exercise and like, I, I've actually never been to one.

I'm sorry. I've been to one. Does, uh, does, uh, God, Kyochi. I always want to say Kyochi. Soto. Japanese dude. Koichi. Does Koichi's count? Cause Liebenson counted, uh, he did a little bit in there. I mean, sure. Okay. So I, I just don't find many that, that apply over to like the application of load and strength conditioning and getting someone back into a safe gym setting. It seems like Liebenson is a good, is a good carryover, but I haven't been. Yeah, it's a good starting point. I mean, from a, from a, from a chiropractic perspective, right. The, uh, his course is a very good comprehensive, um, look into corrective exercise.

I wouldn't go into as far as saying like strength training and, and, and like the, the, the gym stuff, but it's an introduction to that stuff as far as it being valuable, but corrective exercise wise. And, and kind of a lot of the principles in that regard, it's, it's, it's an excellent course. It's one of the, in my opinion, it's still one of the best courses as far as a, a, a general and comprehensive corrective exercise course, um, that I think everyone should take. And, and, and Jason Brown also teaches a, um, teaches similar material like, uh, Craig gave him his lesson to do that. And Jason does an amazing job as well.

And, um, he, I mean, it's just, you, you learn so much more that you can do on Monday to help people in either one of those courses. Um, so, uh, probably a little later I'll, I'll just, I'll probably get just for, for personal questioning is what, what courses are the ones that we should probably all want to take? Cause, uh, I had a couple of students that emailed me over the last couple of weeks. They're like, Hey, I want to learn this, this, and that, where do I do it? And, uh, rather than just doing like a, like an email to each one of them back, it'd be just nice to share this podcast. But, um, as you kind of went through, I know that I started with mainly, I actually did active release before I actually went into Cairo school.

I was still in, uh, undergrad when I took a course and then, um, yeah. So my route into there was, was mainly that. And then I was kind of poo pooing on adjustment for a while. And then I realized the adjustments have some value and, um, not really not until years later did I, did I, uh, realize the value of corrective exercise and then the power of actually doing corrective exercise in the right dosage and intensity. Um, but what was your kind of, uh, bias and come from back when you were going through those ones? When I first started like, uh, the, the courses, the coursework, uh, well, even like before you got in school, why the hell did you get into chiropractic school?

You could have been other things. Oh, so my story of getting into chiropractic was, um, I was, I was in the Navy and I was doing jujitsu a ton, right? Like jujitsu, I was competing a ton, but in the Navy I was a helicopter mechanic. Um, and, um, I, I was doing jujitsu a lot, competing a lot. And then I ended up hurting myself, right? Like jujitsu was my passion. And I was actually, I was already planning and to get out of the Navy and do jujitsu full time for a couple of years. Now I wasn't great at it, but I had a nest egg and I was just going to give it a go and have some fun, right? Just compete a lot, dedicate my, my, my, uh, a couple of years to it, see where it took me.

Um, but I ended up having a hip injury. The hip injury, uh, led me to going to a whole bunch of different professionals looking for help. And what I learned that it's hard out there to find good help. Right. And so I spent a lot of money and I went to a lot of people that essentially just kind of sucked, you know, um, uh, it was one size fits all type stuff. A lot of these people just didn't really know how to manage a person that had active goals. Um, and then I ended up having surgery, um, had a torn labrum, the FAI, all that, all that good news. Um, the, uh, I had the surgery, the surgery didn't really help.

Right. Um, and then afterwards I ran into a Cairo, um, down on the Navy base and he was kind of more of a strength based guy. He, he, he was kind of limited to what he can do inside of his office, but he was like, look, dude, you got to get strong. You got to get after it. Nobody ever really approached it from that kind of perspective. I mean, that could they put me in pool therapy. They showed me a bunch of like very simple exercises that are meant for somebody that like, uh, that had like no athleticism at all. Um, so I followed his advice and I kind of went back to him for, uh, for advice and whatnot.

And, uh, I got better. And then from one of those days, I just went into my car after coming out of the, uh, the clinic over there on, um, NAS North Island, um, Coronado. And I was like, well, I'm going to be a chiropractor. Um, so I did, I could have, I could have landed in anybody's office, uh, for that matter. Like, you know, it just so happened that the first, um, person who actually sat me down, listened to what my wants and needs were and where I was at and spent the time to take to, uh, that, that is required of any health professional order really gets to the bottom of somebody's issue.

Um, what it happened to be a chiropractor. And then, so from then on, I just decided to, uh, to go to school, become a chiropractor. So, uh, but, but to your point, I think for me, my bias was never, did I want to do sports with a soft tissue? Did I want to do X? Did I want to do this? I could give a shit less. I wanted results, right? My, my whole passion and goal in that is that I didn't want other people to have to go through that. Um, and I wanted results. So, you know, a hot thing at the time for me in school and everything, everybody talks about soft tissue and ART and stuff like that, which was cool.

And, and, and in sports, cause I want to be a sports chiro. Right. And I was super involved in that. Um, I was the, I was a national president of the student, um, ACA sports council. Um, I was really involved with all this stuff on campus, but that's where a lot of that stuff was. It was essentially traditional chiropractic with soft tissue to work on athletes, you know, um, but I wanted results. And so I find, I found like, you know, Craig Liebenson's, uh, material and R2P and the kind of, uh, the approach to active care and, and, uh, the functional approach per se. And then, um, that trajectory just kind of led into a more comprehensive, uh, management of, of, you know, people.

So with, uh, just, just so everyone can get an idea of, of what kind of courses you've already taken so they can kind of get an idea of, of where you've been and what you're really, maybe the, the things that you would suggest just to make sure that they're like, oh, he hasn't been to that. He doesn't know. Uh, just give me a laundry list of random courses that you've taken over the years. Oh man. Um, well, I've taken all of, all of Liebenson's courses at that time. He's got new stuff out now, but taking all, put it this way. If you look on the R2P website, that's what I did. Like if you look on the R2P certification website, that's essentially what I did.

Uh, before I graduated, I had finished all the requirements of the R2P, uh, clinical certification. Right. Um, so, I mean, I did a lot of active exercise stuff. I did, um, you know, Liebenson's work. I did a ton of DNS at the time. I was, I was, I was doing a lot of that stuff. I did like 13 DNS courses in total. Um, I did, uh, like a lot of soft tissue dove. I did some ART. I did Stecco. I did Factor. I did Graston. Um, I did, uh, you know, various things in that regard. And then I, I really got into the strength training part of it because I realized after a while that corrective exercise is a means to an end.

And then I really started getting into the strength training part of it, you know, and going to things like perform better. Um, I did Mike Boyle CFSC stuff. Um, and I, I got my CSCS. I started just, I started spending more time with strength and conditioning coaches and stuff like that. I also did the strong first kettlebell instructor certification as well. Oh, we did talk about that. So, so I mean, I did, I was, I was trying to just get as broad of a knowledge as I could based on the people I wanted to help. And, and, um, like I said, going from active care, you just want, I just want to be the best, right?

I just want to be really good and be able to help the people I could the best I can. And so active care leads into strength training performance type of approaches. And so that's essentially where it led me. And I started incorporating a lot more strength conditioning type of stuff because if we're really meeting people where they are, a lot of people don't even need corrective exercise per se, like ground movements and simple stuff. A lot of people just need really good, safe training, right? And so having a quality understanding of exercise science and strength conditioning allows us to really meet people where they are and get them towards their goals faster in a safe manner.

Um, and, and, and, and, and just a better way. So I started doing a whole lot of that. So you're thinking then just to clarify that, uh, then would you, would you think it's fair to say that most people as it is, if there's a deconditioned population, just getting them to do something in a safe way is going to make them feel better. Right. Yeah. I mean, I would agree with that. I would agree with that, but I would agree even the, even some of the most deconditioned people don't need to be on the floor the entire time. And I would say they would benefit from, um, from doing something that challenges them a little bit more and makes them feel strong.

And you can do that in a variety of ways without it being in the quote unquote corrective kind of realm as they perceive it. Right. Cause I mean, all exercises, all exercise is kind of corrective exercise. Right. Um, but if we can give them the perception of that, they're like training, let them know that they're training and that they're doing hard stuff and that this is what I get, what's going to get them from A to B. Um, that I think we should do that. But I mean, in addition to the straight training stuff, something that was very pivotal to, to, to all this was, you know, um, was getting into the biopsychosocial approach, um, and more pain science aspects in that regard, like learning a bunch of great, uh, learning from Greg Lehman on multiple occasions, um, starting to look more into that sort of stuff.

Um, and then, um, clinical neurodynamics and learning all the stuff, uh, uh, from, from Michael Shacklock and Butler, Mosley, all, all those guys, but Michael Shacklock and Butler's works, um, the, uh, mobilization of the nervous system, clinical neurodynamics made a huge impact as well. So I would say that, um, that's had a, that's had a big, uh, a big impact on my education as well. Yeah. I would too. Um, I find that, uh, probably, probably the ones that if I were to list important ones, I think any tissue work one would be nice just to make sure you're familiarizing with getting your hands on people.

Um, but, uh, actually I, I found a lot of value and I didn't go to the McGill course, but just reading his books, it was interesting to see, um, mainly bedside rapport and ways of explaining things in a simple way. So when people come in and see me anyways, I explain them, you know, with triggers and first aid and I say the corrective or supportive, then I go into load, which is your strength conditioning. And I say they're in phases and I say like, you might want to take those two away at some point cause they're not, um, they're not going to be useful anymore. But then, you know, people come in with like, Hey, I got these corrective exercises I've been doing for like 30 years.

So you think I should stop doing them? They can make me feel good. Um, I always tend to think they just never get to the foot on ground closed chain application of life. And that's all what strength conditioning is for me anyways. So that's, that's my thought anyways, but the shot clock one was a great seminar, um, in the regards to radiculopathies and all the things that you tend to not think are, uh, nerve based. Yeah. And I should have mentioned McGill earlier. He was, I mean, he, his, his approach and his thought process, I mean, I see, I've seen him speak into his courses maybe like six or seven times and he, he had a big, huge impact on, on, on the way I, uh, way I approach things.

Um, but yeah, and, and, and also Phillips now, you know, because he was a, uh, you know, he came from that kind of a lineage, I guess, with, uh, Craig Levinson and McGill and stuff like that. And then he was a large mentor of mine when I was coming up in the game as well. But, um, yeah, I would say that, I mean, I remember, um, back when I was in school, Justin Dean and I, um, were, you know, the only chiropractors to my knowledge that I even attended at my, uh, Michael Shacklock's clinical neurodynamic course in the United States. Um, and it was pretty interesting scenario when we showed up room full of PTs and it was just us.

Well, you said you were in like Hawaiian shorts, right? Well, no, Justin and I showed up and it's like, you know, kind of a manual therapy type of thing. So you want to be like, you know, loose, comfortable clothing that you can move around it and work on each other with. And so, you know, I was wearing a, I was wearing a TNC surf designs tank top. I remember exactly. And I was wearing, um, a billabong, uh, board shorts, right. That were like some like pink, peach and blue. Like, you know, and I was wearing my little vivo barefoot, um, flip flops with the split toe. Oh yeah. I was, I was straight casual.

Justin was very similar. Um, you know, and we showed up and it was a room full of PTs and khakis and polos. Yeah. They were, they, uh, did, oh, they must've had to, they had to D they had to take your, take their clothes off at some point to, to get into the neurology, uh, for palpation and stuff like that. And to be fair, they were all really, to be fair, they were all really cool, but I just think that the, the course was in Atlanta. And so the type of chiropractors that you're typically around over there, um, aren't like, uh, evidence-based variety in a lot of cases. Right. And so they, but they, they were all super cool.

We got along really great. And I still keep in contact with some of the PTs that I met there and they're all really good people. Yeah. Were you wearing, you weren't wearing Chubby's brand shorts, like those big, the ones like mid-dyers? Yeah, Chubby's wasn't even out yet, bruh. Where'd Chubby's start? I thought that was like a frat party thing. Was that down in San Diego? I don't know, man. I was never a frat kid, dude. You'd have to tell me about that. No. You know, I, I, I went through campus and there was always like rush week. So like, as everyone saw, everyone's sitting at these tables. So there was one year that, so all my friends that had, um, well, they, I abbreviated their name, but I basically, so I made myself a shirt and it was Sigma Epsilon Beta.

And my friend was Lambda Alpha Rho and, uh, another one was, uh, Sigma Alpha Lambda. And so, and it says go Greek on the, on, on the bottom. And so I still have this shirt and I wear it on occasion. Everyone's like, were you in a fraternity? I'm like, no, this is my name. Yeah. It's in Greek. So original t-shirt idea. I'm going to claim it. You should, um, I do deserve that one. Although that t-shirt was like one of the old school cardboard five or 10 type of things. Right on. Yeah. High quality. Well, now that's vintage. It's just scratchy. It's not 50 bucks now. Shoot. It's not one of those like nice flow force ones that is just like smooth and smooth and shit in the winter.

I mean, you know, I care about the people that wear my shirt, so I make sure they get the good stuff. You know, nipple chafing, you know, if you really cared about nipple chafing, like you would probably have the letter in a little higher than most people's nipples. Like, like that's straight across. Oh shit. I don't know. I don't even know where to go there. I'm not going to touch that one, dude. Well, you've heard of, you've heard of the bloody 11. The bloody 11. Yeah. So, so marathons will get it and they'll wear these t-shirts. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, I've, yeah, I've been to marathons, ran a marathon, seen a bunch of people with marathons.

All those poor guys running down the end, dipping for Vaseline with blood pouring down their shirt. Yeah. They gotta, they gotta do like those little, uh, I forget those little circle band-aids, but you do those first for like the first five miles till they fall off. And after that, you're good. It's just too much exposure. Poor guys. Okay. So, uh, new education. Right. You're, you're wondering if we're going to have a flow on this thing. So, so Ben was like, he texted me last night. He's like, are we going to have an outline for this thing? I said, no, we're not going to have an outline for this thing.

We're just going to talk. You asked me though, but I want to say something that you asked me about earlier, as far as courses that I recommend. Um, and I tell people this all the time, if you only had to pick three courses to take as a student, like we're saying, or even anybody that's only got a basic, um, chiropractic education. Um, if you can only take three courses, my top three courses of 100% are, um, Phillip Snell's course. Um, and then, uh, uh, and then number three would be clinical neurodynamics. Um, or, or Jason Brown's course, like either one of those two would be, uh, number two for me.

Um, or maybe Phillip Snell's and those courses would be mixing match number one or two. Um, but, uh, and then number three would be clinical neurodynamics. I think that those, those three introduce you to a comprehensive and broad based understanding of some of the most important topics, um, that you don't get in school that I think that, uh, people should prioritize before they spend money elsewhere. I mean, when it comes to soft tissue, um, it's, I think it's pretty straightforward. I mean, you know, don't get me wrong. I've taken ART and stuff like that. And I appreciate that stuff, but there's so many ways to skin a cat.

And if we're approaching it from kind of a neurological perspective, like we should be, um, it really just comes down to reps. Right. Make the person comfortable, try to get the response that you want. You can use any technique you need. Um, all you really need is a room full of a bunch of friends and practice. And that's what most soft tissue courses are, right? Like it's like a whole bunch of basic science, a whole bunch of reasoning that we don't obviously need to hear because it doesn't apply based on the science that we know. And then it skips this big gap of application and it says, press here and move the arm this way, you know?

So, uh, we can essentially skip all this part and then just go to a room and use the skills that we were taught in school and practice. And then, I mean, most of the time I think of a lot of people who even say this are, they're, they're making it up on the spot. Would you say not? Like, you know, I think, I think what my, my interpretation of what a lot of people do is they just kind of go with what they feel and what works. And, uh, and it's based upon, um, you know, the, the person you're working with, they might not take certain, you know, uh, pressures and whatnot. And sometimes every time the same person that likes deep pressure could come in the next time and they'd feel better with skin rolling or better with light pressure or whatever.

Like, you know, right. Well, the, uh, so there was a guy that asked me one time because he's like, should I take a soft tissue course? And, uh, and, and I'm like, I think you should, you know? And, and he's like, why would I do that? I can make it up. And I'm like, you're right, you probably could make a lot of it up. Cause we all know, we all know, uh, muscular anatomy, you know, origin, insertion, length and so on. But I'm like, I guarantee like, so I, I paid a shit ton for the course and I can guarantee that I spent more time on this than you did. Is that fair to say? And they're like, yeah, I'm like, I'm better than you probably at it, you know, cause, cause I've been forced into that cause I, I put skin in the game.

So did you, did you only practice it when you were at that course? Um, no, how many weekends or, or, or weeknights did you bring your friends together in a room and do that same thing over and over again? I don't remember, but I know the very first time there was, there was, I was scared to death of the, of the, of the, of the, the test. So I actually, I got it like six months in advance and I was just hammering that thing. I highlighted, I, I mean, I was on it. So no, I don't, I don't remember. I did practice for the DCA, uh, DACBSP, uh, emergency procedure one though. Holy shit. We did that like six, seven times, I think.

Yeah. Well, I, I, but I think what you, what you, to your point though, I think we're agreeing and it's that the reason that those three days or three and a half days of, of, of like I say, uh, that, that course is so valuable is because you get your hands on it to a bunch of different people and you spent a lot of time on it. Right. Hey, that, that's what, that's how you got better. It wasn't the content itself. It's because you practice a lot. Well, I think a lot of the, a lot of the, uh, so some of the students that I've talked to are young docs. I think where the, the lacking point is, and this just comes with a clinical experience reps and a little bit of guidance.

And I think that's what we get from all these courses is, um, you know, talking after the fact and Hey, what works for you in office and so on is that they get all these little tools and tricks and so on. And maybe try this with this taste, but we don't really know, but they don't know how to blend all these things together, um, I think Phillip's course is a really good comprehensive approach of, holy shit, there's like five things in here that are like tangent topics that you can use. And here's how you would use it with this one type of clinical presentation. Now to do it with all the other ones, it is different.

The structure of that type of course is far and above, um, most other courses I've ever been to because it doesn't give you one component of it. I mean, you can go to all these different courses and they give you their component of it. Um, what Phillip does is he takes, um, you know, from, from, uh, uh, all these different evidence-based resources of how to approach and manage low back pain, which is, you know, uh, at one of the major things we see, right. What's it number two cause of disability behind depression. Right. And, and, and we all are going to see a ton of it. Um, and, and he brings it all together.

And so you can, uh, have a, uh, um, a comprehensive way of managing it. Right. Um, and I've never been to another course that does that. Yeah. I haven't either. They all got like their, I mean, they all have their, their beliefs and their bias and their algorithms, which is, which is fine, but it's, it's meant to be picked apart a little bit because no one's going to fit that, that model. Um, I, I just, I had a, uh, a new grad that came in the, uh, yesterday that we were actually, I, I, I really wanted to come in here. Like, I think having Jeremy here, like really opened my eyes to, to helping out, you know, a new grad and hopefully getting them on the course of where I wish I would have been when I first graduated.

Um, and that, and this kid was, uh, he, he came from a internship where there was a lot of passive therapies, which is, which is fine time and place. So he was, he was standing in there and, uh, I said, this girl came in and, uh, she had an ankle problem, uh, negative, negative x-ray. Uh, she had pain with running. And, uh, so I was like, just stay for this one. Let's just check it out. So skin rolling improved it. Um, McKenzie extension improved it. She didn't have any like sciatica based neuro based, you know, conditions really. But really the thing that I think that that blew his mind was that I had to run back and forth, like kind of jogging.

She'd sprint fine, but she would jog, uh, with pain. And so I gave her some, uh, pressure, intra-abdominal pressure cueing and it went away. And she's in, so I was like, we didn't even do any passive therapy on her. It was just a little bit of cueing of movement, you know? So I don't think you typically get that in school. And, um, there's, that's why I like talking about this stuff because you've already been through a lot of that, that stuff before, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think for the, to be fair, when I, when I was in school and I think a lot of that guy's coming out of school now, uh, at least in the programs that have a very strong base of rehab performance, right?

Like R2P club is, um, man, like we were just a big crew of, you know, 30, 40 people practicing all this stuff all the time. We were all going out and about reading books and learning what we could, and we would come together and we would mesh it and we would try to learn it the best we can. And, and I think it's only, it's significantly better since when I was in, since I, since I was in school and, and, and it's available for everyone to do as long as they're willing to do it. Um, but yeah, I mean, and, and, and, and also to be fair to the schools, there's so much that they need to teach you, right.

And they're trying to teach you how to be a doctor. Right. And, and, and they do a good job of that. I think they do a really good job of that. Cause I mean, there's, there's, there's those moments when you need to break, when you need to, you know, be a clinician, which is all moments, but what? Um, those moments when, when, um, that person presents that very complex problem in front of you and you need to clear out some, some red flags or you need to do, you know, make sure they don't have an upper motor neuron lesion or know when to refer and all that stuff. That's super important. So I think that, um, the, the, um, the educational process is right.

I just think that if they were going to teach us all the act, I mean, we could, we could trim some of the fat and add some more active care in there for sure. But I think they do a pretty good job and I think R2P fills that gap pretty well, but we still got a long way to go. Yeah, I think so too. I think, I mean, my, my thought is the school's responsibility is to get you to pass boards and to get you the DC licensing and, and they do that, but there's not a corrective exercise station and, you know, loading or understanding what a strength coach knows. None of this is in, in boards, so they don't really need to teach it.

It's, it's, uh, they're doing their job. Right, right, right. Um, so what are, uh, by the way, everyone should know, we don't get any money for suggesting these courses. We're just talking about courses and hopefully guiding you guys. I want everyone to get better. I want people to be better at helping the people that they serve. That's all. Right. You know, it's, it's a, it's a really hard thing. I think, and I'm going to probably sound like an asshole saying this is that I don't feel like I know a lot of people that I want to refer certain cases to. And cause I just don't know if they're going to get the job done because they haven't been spending their CE money appropriately.

They haven't been thinking outside the box where they're stuck in one of these little systems or they haven't, uh, maybe we're thinking inside the box. Thinking inside. Yeah. So, and, and I'm not, I'm not saying this cause I feel like I'm, you know, the best, like I'm still learning, but at the same time I probably wouldn't have referred myself some of these cases five years ago, you know? So I think everyone should understand that as we're talking about these courses, it just Ben, I thought Ben would be a good one to talk to you about it. I mean, yeah, the, the, it's not easy. Right. And we're all just trying to be a little bit better.

I hope. I think, I think the base, the base, but we ought to start from is, do we really want to, do we, do we want to help people the best we can? I think everybody could say yes. Right. If we're being honest with ourselves, then if that's the case, then we're trying to get ourselves better so we can be better at what we want to be good at. Right. Okay. Good. So we got, to me, it's pretty simple. It goes, goes through that. And then we need to figure out what is the best way for us to help those people? What do we need to learn? And I think in a lot of cases, unfortunate part is that people think that just by going to any course, they're learning what they need to learn, but that's not the case.

We need to be kind of selective. And so I've taken, like I said, I took a million CE courses when I was in school and whatnot. But like, if I could go back, I would have not taken a lot of, you know, there's, there's many of them that I didn't need to take. You know, some, but I gained experience. I met people while I was there and whatnot. That was good. But if we can hone in on, on the stuff that counts and matters, then we'd be in a lot better shape. And I think that it really just takes a little bit more thoughtfulness, you know, and it also takes guidance from a mentor or something like that.

So, yeah, I mean, I know people that are still going to the same courses over and over again. Not to say that that's not, that's not, that's not a bad thing, but it's like, they're not learning anything new. Right. I've always thought it's like, there's the point of diminishing return. It's great to be getting, becoming an expert, a really good expert in that one thing, but you're, you're really narrowing your understanding of the other things that could help for these same people, maybe even better, you know? And, and it comes to a point too, where it's like, man, like, we, we need to be looking into the literature and the current literature, right?

Like we need to be spending our time there and advancing our knowledge there, um, it's just as much as we need to be, you know, taking new information from courses. You know, there's so many different ways to learn, having conversations, you know, between two people, um, you know, uh, just more and picking our brains and having that kind of discourse is, is, is all a part of the process. I, I, I tend to think that we're all really, we're all about a year out of education, uh, closer to being really good, really, really good at most conditions. Um, but also to just kind of sinking there. And I know when I look at someone, I think, you know, why is this person presenting with this type of pain?

Like what are the, what are your possible differentials? But also not just that, but thinking about the theory of what can offload that differential, you know, and then, and then testing those theories down. And they're not going to be the same technique or method. They're going to be a little different things. And in surprised, um, I had a lady the other day, actually, actually the guy was a better one. So he had a wrist condition. It was, uh, uh, I think it was owner aspect, but it's in the wrist. So he came in and he was going like this. So he was brushing his hair, right? And he's like, it only hurts when I brush my hair.

Comb. I'm going to say comb. It sounds cooler. Uh, so he's combing his hair and he's like, I don't get it. I didn't do anything. What's that? And he was doing this cause it was a pocket comb. Right, right, right. And then he had a pocket of pomade in, uh, I think a pomade in his pocket just in case. He had to take off his, uh, his, he had to take off his do-rag in order to slick it. Yeah, there was nothing. It was an American flag do-rag. Um, so he was, he was, he was, he was combing his hair. And, uh, so I, I thought maybe that's cervical stuff. Let's look at the cervical. I couldn't find anything.

I looked at some neurodynamic stuff. I couldn't find anything. I look at the wrist, stress tested all around, couldn't find anything. And so I'm like, well, shit, I don't know. Let's, let's load it. So I had him carry, I carried it cause it was safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had him carry around some kettlebells in a farmer's carry. And, uh, that didn't, and I had him retest, didn't, didn't do anything. I did a couple more, uh, loaded variations and I'm like, well, maybe all those tissue work the thing. I tried that. That didn't get better either. So I started kind of filling up his arm. I'm like, this is like the distribution of, he's kind of pointing a little higher now.

Now he's into the lateral elbow crease, um, around the lateral, alopecondyle. And so I started tugging on there, doing some dermal traction. And then he's like, Hey, when you push up there, it hurts down on my wrist. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. Let's go a little higher. I went around the spiral groove of the humerus and grabbed his skin. And so he started combing his hair after that. And so it went away. I couldn't believe it went away, but it's an example of, uh, just a bunch of random shit to try. And you acted like you knew it was going to happen, right? No, I told him, I said, really? You gotta be kidding.

And so he's like, wow, I can't believe that happened. You're like, yeah, me too. Well, he, he's a, he's a tough seller on the, on this stuff. Cause his, his wife comes in and like, so he'll come in. And like sporadically and he'll like playing about his back and then he'll be good for like a month. And then I'm like, Hey, come in. I want to play with you. Let's do some things. And he's like, no, I feel good right now. So he's a hard sell. And so when he grabbed that spot and he combed his hair, he's like, you gotta be kidding me. We kept trying. And he's like, it went away. It would come back.

And I'm like, can you, can you trust me on this stuff? Can you come back when your back is not like hot? I want to play with that. I don't care about this thing. Um, anyways, an example of random shit that would work that you, that, I mean, I didn't learn that in school. Dermal traction. Check it out. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, just a thought on communication. I know we had this conversation off to the side one time is that, um, we were talking about just how people who are really good with patients in general just are really good communicators. Mm-hmm, absolutely. 100%. Okay. What's, uh, what are some good communicators that you would, that you like to observe?

Phillip was a good one. People would take it there? Oh, yeah. I mean, I would, I would say that every single clinician that I've observed that, um, that is really good, is really good at communicating, you know, or is an exceptional communicator. I think Phillip, Phillip is probably the best example I could use because, um, his ability to, you know, navigate the conversation in such a way that he connects with the person and in such a way that he can, he can get the information that's required in order for him to, you know, start the process of assessment and the clinical exam and all that stuff in the right way to kind of hone it down.

Um, his ability to do that is, is, is, is amazing. So, I mean, I, I, I did my preceptorship, um, my first preceptorship with him and, you know, it was like a different person going into the damn exam room every single time. And I remember coming out like over the first week, like, damn, this dude is like, you know, he, he, he's in there, he's in there throwing on the, uh, the good old boy accent for one. The next person, the next person's a physician and he's coming in and he's, he, he's, you know, being, uh, the, the academic, uh, uh, clinical guy. Then the next time he comes in there and it's like, you know, a mechanic and he starts talking in terms of like, you know, but, but I think that getting that buy-in and getting that connection, that person is huge, right?

It's, it's the, um, you know, just, just having that connection and establishing that connection and trust and confidence, um, and care, right? Um, but they know you care is, is, is, is a, is a pivotal part of, of, um, being able to help people, right? Because if that trust isn't there, it's very hard to get them in the right direction. Right, right. Or to keep them, you know? Well, I think definitely the, the motivational interviewing or just figuring out, you know, what the person's asking for and what they came in for. And, um, I remember I had this one lady one time that she, uh, I did a poor job with her and so she had, she had a knee issue and I was interested in her hip to correct her knee.

And, uh, I, maybe I didn't explain that right in the beginning or I didn't hear what her concerns were, but we were about like 45 minutes into it and I was showing her something which was working, but she was just very like, looked irritated and I was like, is, is something wrong? Like, is, are you, is, is this making sense? And she's like, when are we going to do something for my knee? You know? And, uh, just a bad communication at that point. So, but you're right. I think Phillips, uh, I haven't observed him being a chameleon yet, so I'm going to, I'm going to follow him around a little bit.

Like the chameleon. Yeah. Right on. You know, but I mean, I think there's a lot of people like that. Um, my, my, one of my biggest mentors when I was in school was, uh, Dr. Craig Kawaoka, you know? Oh yeah. He was in my school at first. Yeah. He was at your school, but then he decided to go to a better one. And then, I think he just wanted to move away. Yeah. I don't know what you said to him, but he did. I never actually had him. I only had, I only ran into him at seminars actually. But, but man, like he was in charge. He was the clinical director of the sports medicine program at, um, for the master's program at, at Western States.

And, you know, he, he ran all that stuff and his, um, connection with every single one of the athletes and the coaches and the trainers and all the schools that we went to, man, was top notch. Like you go in there, um, and everybody trusts the guy and everybody knew that he had their best interest at heart and that he was going to be smart and he was going to think it through and, and, uh, and he was going to help them the best of his abilities. Um, but man, like, you know, it's just like, you can see it when that happens. You can see that when you, when you've got multiple different schools and athletic training rooms, you get this one guy come in and everybody just all of a sudden feels better because, you know, Dr. K's in the house.

Uh, and, and it's because he works hard, you know, he works hard and he, he, he cares. Um, but, um, you know, that, that, that connection and that ability to, um, to, you know, show people you care and communicate with them effectively is huge. Yeah. What's the, what's the saying? They don't know how much you, what's that? The, uh, building that therapeutic alliance. Oh, I haven't heard that. You haven't. It's, uh, you should read up on it. Okay. Damn. Another thing to read. I, I don't know. I still got a couple, I still got to finish your Dan John video. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're going to have to dust off your VCR.

You know, so I, my VCR actually is a PlayStation two and, uh, I've been, I've been trying to use it every once in a while and, uh, I was actually going to watch blood sport the other night and you break it out and every time you just end up playing Tekken. No, actually there's no games around it. There's only one controller to really control the DVD. The damn thing doesn't work ever. So I think I'm going to junk it and finally just invest. I actually threw away a Blu-ray player about two years ago. I'm like, I'm never going to watch DVD again. And now I got this one that I really want to watch.

Why can't, why can't, uh, uh, what's it called again? Who, uh, why can't Lee Draper just do like MP3 variety? They do. Do they? Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe. Okay. Everyone check out Lee Draper, Dan John interventions. It's a great, it's a great DVD. It's a great DVD. Yeah, absolutely. Dan John is, his ability to keep it simple, um, and effective and his community, his communication style in particular. Damn. It's a dude. It's great. Yeah. And he can make it so much more complicated if he wants. If he wants to. I mean, he's a super intelligent guy, but he's just got so much experience and he's so knowledgeable that he can keep it like extremely simple.

Yeah. Right. The, uh, you ever, you ever seen his, uh, his YouTube videos by chance? Yes. Yeah. A lot of them. They're, uh, the, the grainy ones where he's in his garage telling someone to get up. Oh man. Those are, yeah, absolutely. But just the way he talks to people too, right? Like, um, his communication style is spot on. Yeah. Andy, he'll give his cell phone at seminars and you call it, he picks up. Yeah. So he's just a very personal dude. Um, so as we start to go into, uh, we're about 40 minutes in here. I thought, uh, I want to make sure that, that everyone knows we're being transparent with this too.

I did want you to have, I wanted to have you on with that to talk about the seminars, but also to, we're doing a launch of our online CE course. Okay. And me and Ben thought about this idea. Uh, gosh, this was probably June of last year and it's finally coming out. We're getting accredited. Um, so we were sitting at a course and we were just kind of irritated about the fact that that course didn't have CEs and, or available, but it was a good course. I forget what course we were actually at. I don't remember either. Um, but we were eating sushi and we're talking about, I was like, my birthday was coming up.

Oh yeah, June. So my birthday is in June. I'm like, so, so is this count for CEs? And you're like, no. I'm like, God, I got to go online and do some, I got to go watch that one that you wiggle the damn mouse and you really don't learn anything more than you learn in school. And I had just finished it too, cause May's my birth month. So like, you know, I had to finish it by May 31st. So on May 28th, you know, or May 29th, you know, I ponied up and took a pointless CE course that I didn't learn much from. Yeah. And, and I understand that. I mean, so they were, it was cheap. It got the job done and that's kind of what they are.

Respect for that. Yeah. But so we thought, what if this was just really good and useful and kind of like a, like a taster or like a, um, um, what do they call them? Beer flight. It's like a flight of different courses that you're interested in. There are ones that you haven't experienced yet. So that's basically what we created. But for flexion intolerant, Vax is right. You could have just stopped that. What if this was useful? Yeah. That's really what it was about, right? It was like literally because you're spending the money, you might as well get something that's of practical use out of it, right?

Yeah. It's, it's tough. They're like PDFs or like PowerPoints of like old stuff. Like one taught me about lateral opicondylitis. I don't need to know more about lateral opicondylitis or know what it is, you know? Not, not in the same frame of that they talk about it, right? I mean, it's literally, it's like you can look at your old school notes from it. You know, it's such a superficial look into it. Right. Did you have Sousa, by the way? We have the Sousa book. Yeah, we use that one. I have it right here, actually. Oh yeah. I think I did see it that day. You have two Sousas, don't you? I've got all the Sousas.

So anyways, so we're starting to launch this course. And so what I thought would be really fun is to have all the presenters on via a podcast each week until they're done. So Ben is one with me. He's also a partner as well as Philip Snell. This, this module is called the Secrets of Flexion and Tolerant Cases. And we are the ethics teachers, believe it or not. So we're trying to make ethics interesting and fun and something that scares the shit out of you. So you actually are considerate of, of what you should be doing in your, in your class or sorry, in your clinic. It had that effect on us at least.

It had that effect on us? Yeah. I felt grimy after. I didn't want to touch a patient again. Um, there, there was the one, so we actually, so we took, what's that? There was just some bad, well, we, so, so what's that getting into is we did a bunch of cases, right? We, um, and these came from the, uh, Nick Mick website. We were just kind of going over cases and discussing them about malpractice issues and stuff like that and ethical concerns. And man, some of these things you're just like, damn, like, uh, man, like yourself getting in trouble real quick. If you're not protecting yourself, there was that, there was that one that, uh, this was probably the worst.

Cause like homeboy, I think did the right job. Like, so he was going to work on like a pec minor. And so we gowned the person, uh, he had seen her, what like massage sheriff was seeing her. And then he came in and saw her like three times in, and then he described the procedure to her, showed her a picture in a book of where he was going to work and why. Yeah. And then, so he got investigated, he got pulled into the sheriff's station or whatever, and they investigate him and they ended up dropping it. But he did it. He did more than I would have done. I wouldn't have showed a picture of the technique.

So I don't know. But so anyway, there's so much good stuff on this course. I mean, like, um, the, we got Phillips now for four hours, right? Um, and, and everybody knows that he's just a wealth of knowledge. And so he's just dropping it, um, dropping knowledge bombs left and right. Um, so we've got that aspect of it covered, right? And we all know that that's also one of his major, um, major, uh, topics that he, that he, that he's, um, really well versed in. Um, we also have, what else? Tell him else. Uh, so we have Greg Lehman to talk about, um, his, his is, as I, as I went through it, I feel like it was a little bit more of, um, I know it's, it's, it'd be pain signs, but the, uh, just communication is the major takeaway I took from that.

Um, different. Dude, he is so smart though. Like he's just such a wealth of knowledge. Um, and he's so well versed. Um, and a lot of the stuff that we were, that, that, that goes into, um, um, like with Phillip's stuff, because he did work with, uh, you know, Stuart McGill, um, a while ago. And, but like, but his knowledge of pain science and, and, and how to approach it in a practical manner, like where the rubber hits the road. So you, so you can make it useful for you when you, um, go into practice is, it's awesome. And I mean, really, I, I still use a ton of stuff that I learned from him all the time.

And then I remember, I mean, just like, it was like a month or two months ago. I was, I finished with a patient and I realized afterwards, you know, that like so much of that encounter was based off of information that I learned from Greg and messaged him. And I was like, dude, I just, you know, like, oh man, it's just to say thank you, you know? Um, because, cause it was so helpful in that case. And it really just comes down to like, you know, making them feel safe. Um, you know? Yeah. I think that, uh, like the safe part, I think is important because when I was, when I was watching it through, I thought this would be really useful for a fear avoidance behavior type of thing.

Or at least. Calm shit down, build shit back up. Right. Um, so someone else we have is, um, everyone's already heard if they've been listening to this podcast, we have Cody D-D-D-D-D-D-D-MAC under the, under the strength conditioning, um, application for a, uh, uh, for a flexion tolerant back. And so we did, I actually flew out to Dallas to do that one. Uh, if you want to hear a little bit more conversation about it, uh, I think episode one 22 where I had him on, we talked about it. Um, but we had, I, uh, so we had actually a, uh, six month old flexion intolerant case and Olympic lifting, uh, Olympic lifting coach in there.

And so it was really cool cause it was raw. Like we didn't know anything about him and Cody just went through and screened him prior to, and then we had him pulling one 35 from blocks by the end and he felt good. So it was a really cool real life application. And we had another girl come in as well. Um, so if you guys don't know what to do with these, you're, you're unsure what to do with, uh, the application of, of weight training and telling them what to do with safe at the gym, either in CrossFit or in an, in an actual, uh, other gym, like a big box gym, then that would be, this is gold for you.

It's actually entertaining too. Um, then we also got a nutritional, uh, portion of this too, right? Yep. James, uh, Valkersel is going to go, he goes through a little bit more of nutritional house. I'll say application. There's, there's definitely some tech stuff in there. Uh, so be aware it's like, uh, right. being able to, uh, use nutrition in order to help, um, you know, support the recovery process, you know? Yeah, there's definitely, there's things in there after, after I watched it through that, uh, a patient came in and he's like, what do you think I should eat to feel better? And I'm like, that's a great question. I need to go back to that course again. But yeah, I mean, and it's simple, there's simple, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's obviously it's a complex topic, but he simplifies it in a, in a, um, you know, practical ways that you can incorporate it on Monday. And I think that's the crux of this entire course is that, um, you know, everything that you'll learn in this course is something that is of value that you can put to use, you know? And, and we've got people coming in to talk about it that are, that are very, very well-versed experts on that topic and are sought out by many providers and many docs, um, like ourselves, um, that we wanted to learn from, I mean, it really came down to being said wanting to learn more just like, you know, the same reason we go to see the same reason we host CE. Uh, and now while we're doing online seeds, we just want to get as many smart people as we can and learn from them. And we also want to help other people learn from them too. And so this whole course is, it comes from that. And, and, and it's really just super valuable. I mean, like if we didn't put this together, I wish somebody had this earlier because I would be just taking a ton of these courses already. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, I, I think I've told you and Phillip before, cause as you guys know different people than me, cause you, you came from the Midwest, but I, I tend to think if I would have, if I would have seen this about a year out of school, that would have changed the course of how I practice.

Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent agree. So, um, I want everyone to, to check that course out. It's going to be at the time of this podcast, it's going to be live. Then, uh, I will put a link in the show notes. Uh, you do get 12 CEs by the way. Uh, I know we went back and forth on, on this, me, Ben and Phil, where we're like, Hmm, everyone else is charging this other price for CEs. And why are we charging more? And I'm like, you know, I kept, I kept reminding them, you guys came from a different place. If I saw this a year out of school, it would change my career. So I said, we're not selling CEs. We're selling, we're selling clinical pearls.

And we, we try to keep it as, I mean, in order to get the best people that we can on it, you know, and considering we, we got this stuff accredited, right? That way you actually get credits for it. So you don't have to take pointless online CE when the time comes, right? When your birth month comes around, um, you know, in order to do that quality, put more effort to it. We got more quality people on it. And so it's not the same price where we try to keep the price as low as we could. Right. Right. Yeah. We got to pay them. Yeah. Got to pay these people. Right. And they deserve it. Right. They put a lot of effort and work in and they deserve to be paid. So we, um, yeah. And, and that's, and that's the same trend. Like, you know, as we move forward with this one and they move forward to the next one, I mean, we're already started, um, with the people that we're going to be having on our next one. And it's, again, it's just going to be another game changing, uh, group of people that are going to have a heavy impact on everybody. It's going to be even better, um, as we need to do this. Are we allowed to talk about who might be the other module? Let's talk about it next time. Okay. But there's definitely some, some heavy hitters in there. Oh, it's going to be so good. Um, the, uh, just, just another thought with this. And I actually didn't talk to you about this yet, but we were talking about what we should, um, if we should offer anything else in there. So, uh, the reason why I wanted to have this podcast earlier today was actually, so I got Bo Beard, Bo Beard coming in, uh, going online. And, uh, I don't know if you saw my Instagram feed. Um, yeah, but we're just more, super smart dude and super passionate. And he's what he's, he's, he's the second half of a, of a power couple, right? It's like two, it's like, it's like two super powerful, super passionate, super smart people that get together. And then they're just so, they're just awesome to be around. Right. And it's like, uh, it's, it's like, I think good cop, bad cop. Um, but so, so Bo's going to come on. I did one of these the other night. Um, I, I'm basically going through and doing a, like, uh, screen share of their website because I've had so much success on my website and driving traffic that I wanted to help all of our, all of our, uh, clinicians at practice like us. I guess I'm going to be biased with that. I, I, I want people who I feel like I really trust to work on people that I know if they live next door to them, I want them to rise to the top on Google search. So I'm going to take about five or six people where we're just basically just going to run through and try to improve their site. So, uh, the farm is going to be on it. Um, rush chiropractic is on it and I'm going to get a couple more. So anyways, those, those are going to be on the, uh, the pro chiropractic site as well. Beautiful. I didn't tell yet, but I just told you. Happy to hear it. That sounds awesome. Yeah. I thought about asking you, I wrote this on the little thingy. I thought about asking you to talk about business stuff and how to start up. And I thought Philip would be really good for communication. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, that'd be great. Yeah. And those wouldn't be, I've actually got another, I've got another friend of mine that I think I should introduce you to talk about business startup. He graduated with me, just opened his fourth location. Oh really? Who's this? Yeah. Josh, can I, belt and Lisa pierble? Well, they're engaged now. So, um, but another power couple, um, and they're just super smart, super awesome, great people, very passionate and very driven. They've always been that way. And so like, yeah, you want to talk about somebody that, that, that launched out of a fricking rocket, um, it's them. So, yeah, yeah, we should, we should, uh, maybe ask them to be on it. Like, so that it gets, it's a clarify. The reason I'm talking about this again, everybody is that there's the CE stuff that we're offering that site, but I think there's other topics that, um, I know that as, as, uh, interns get out of school and they start thinking about, Holy shit, I got to put food on the table. There's, there's, there's different considerations besides clinical skills and there's communication as well as, uh, I mean, I get probably easily 75% of my, my new patients from my website, just blindly emailing and calling me. So, um, I think it's all a good addition, right? Because I mean, I mean, the, the, the crux of it is, is that we would just want to have good quality information that can help, um, help our community of docs succeed in every way that they're going to need. Right. Um, and, and, and in order to succeed in practice, you also have to have, um, you know, you also have to be smart in your business game if you're going to open your own practice too. And so, I mean, this is stuff that we deal with every single day. Right. Um, and that we just want to have a bunch of great resources available for people, um, in that regard and, and, and have the people that we know and admire that are, that got skin in the game and that are working their asses off in order to get quality information out there and, uh, and make it available. That's right. Good. So that'll be, that'll be live by the time this hits.

Um, and, uh, probably to, so to come the next couple of weeks, you'll hear from all the other presenters, James Valkersel, you'll hear from Cody again. Although I don't know what else we're going to talk about on that. Cause we've already talked about other shit. Um, I mean, it's just a good conversation anytime with Cody. Yeah. We'll just talk about stuff. So there, there was a video in there actually that, um, I, I, I told him I was going to leave it on the course and he keep begging me not to is so he was doing something on someone's foot and I came crawling in with this GoPro on a stick that looked like a snake. And so, so he did, but in the big camera caught it is you saw this little snake thing coming out of the side. And so he just stopped. He's like, you got to get out of the picture and I started moving it like a little Cobra. Um, so yeah, here from Cody, you'll hear from, uh, Phillips now. And then, uh, Greg Lyman, just, uh, I just got to get him when he's in the country is all, but you'll hear from all those in sequence. Nice. Do you want to add anything about, uh, seminars, Ben or Con Ed? Um, for anyone that's taken, uh, clinical neurodynamics already, um, we still have a few spots available for advanced clinical neurodynamics. I don't know if this is going to launch by then. This is, Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. But you can, you can, but you can talk about, talk about, but anyways, if this launches by then in, uh, March eight, nine, 10, 11, we're going to have, uh, Michael Shacklock for the only advanced course in the United States in 2019. So that's going to be awesome. And then in April, um, 27, 28 or 28, 29, 27, 28, April, 27, 28, uh, Guido van rice, the gym is going to be coming down to, um, the gym here at flow force rehab. Um, and he's going to be teaching his course on sensory motor training. Now, if you guys haven't learned from Guido yet, man, that dude is smart. He's been on your podcast. What once or twice?

Guido has been on once. Uh, he's on, it's funny. He's only been on now two podcasts. Mine's the second, uh, man freaking genius. Like he's a wealth of information. He's like, he's, he's number like one 21, 21 in case you guys want to hear it. Yeah. And then, and then, um, later on in the beginning of August, I'm going to have, um, a PT Scott Morrison come down for his course, slop to maloading. Um, Scott's a real smart guy, full of information, very well versed in the literature. Um, but that'll be down here in San Diego, um, and my spot full force rehab as well. Nice. What's the, what's the weather like in San Diego doing all those months?

During all those months. Pretty good. Cool. I don't know what month you're talking about, but I'm going to go ahead and say yes. Yeah. Yes. That's, that's all matters. Like every time you look at Hawaii, it says 85 and drizzling. Same thing. Um, yeah, I, I, I would definitely, I'm actually bummed. I wanted to go to Guido's down there, but, uh, one of the, uh, when I passed front desk workers, Laura, Laura's getting married that day, but she's in San Diego. So, um, but I'll, I'll, I'll jump in there just to say, Hey, but, uh, yeah, Laura, I, uh, I must really like you to go to your thing to miss this. I know you're not listening to this, Laura, but yeah. So anyways, um, okay. I don't think I have anything else to add, but, um, that was there. How does everyone reach you by the way? Uh, they can reach me at flowforce rehab.com F L O W F O R C E R E H A B.com. Um, there's, there's a little thing where you can just email me straight up on there. You want to look at me on Instagram, see what I'm up to. It's just at flowforce rehab. Uh, same thing with Facebook, uh, flowforce rehab. Um, and then on my personal account on, on, um, Facebook, I've tried to post a bunch of research and clinical stuff as well. So if you want to follow me on there and friend me or whatnot, we can, we can do that. Can I friend you and unfriend you? Does it alert you when I unfriend you? Yeah, it will. And so if you unfriend, well, no, it doesn't alert me when you unfriend me, alerts me when you friend me. But then when I stopped seeing you and getting that dopamine response, right, that little notification makes me sad. If I mute, if I mute you, do you still see me?

I don't know. I don't, I don't, I really don't know. I don't do a lot of cruising on social media anymore. I just post stuff, you know? Yeah. Okay. Well, let's test that theory. Um, okay. Thanks for being on then. Um, and, uh, just hold on and we'll talk after. All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening and don't forget to go check out that course. It will be in the show notes. Uh, the course is on a platform called pro chiropractic online, C E P R O. And we're going to have a lot more coming over, over the next few months, hopefully. And I know that over, um, uh, the next month or so, I'm actually gonna go videotape two people for the next module, which I believe is we're going to do, we're going to do cervical and upper quarter. So neck conditions, neck disc, neck facets, uh, but also to, uh, referred pain into the arm, um, periscapular pain, rotator cuff conditions. It won't resolve labral conditions. It won't resolve, uh, radiculopathies and all that kind of stuff.

And all the things that actually you, you, you would think are actually going to be, uh, things that you might have to adjust or do manual therapy on. Sometimes if you clear out the neck and the shoulder, amazing things happen even down to the distal extremity. So we're going to cover that into the next module, which is not going to release for a while, but I, I'm so excited about it. I just want to talk about it now. So, but this first one, uh, go through and check it out. Um, if you guys don't like it, uh, I think there's a partial refund policy if you, if you want to do, but I really do believe you're going to, you're going to like it. So, uh, leave people that know how you found them. And if you're dating, date an Eagle Scout and tune in next week for another presenter we're going to have on, you're going to find it extremely valuable. I'll talk to you guys next week.