Don't be a liability: a practical definition of fitness

So that's kind of where I started to, you know, kind of unpack what my definition of fitness is. And then I hear this quote multiple times from Laird Hamilton, who's a big wave surfer, and people ask him why he's sober now. And he said, you know, my job is to save people while I'm out there, while they're surfing 50-foot waves. And if I'm kind of hungover or if I'm a little bit stoned, then I'm a liability to the people that are surfing. So my whole thing is don't be a liability. And so, you know, treat your body like you're going to go save somebody's life. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery.

And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey, guys, it's Dr. Sebastian Dalsch, your host with the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. And this is an interview I had with Jesse Prescott. He's a massage therapist out of Flagstaff, Arizona. And we met in an interesting way. We met in an airport. But there was someone who introduced us. So it wasn't just a creepy like, hey, what's up, guy? You want to go talk a little bit? We'll talk about that a little bit as we go forward here. Now, if you're a first-timer to the show, again, I want to welcome you. Thank you for spending about an hour with me and my guest.

If you're a clinician, season one, a young one, someone who's been in practice for a long time, this is going to be shit you're going to care about. You're going to like it. I can tell you in full honesty that over the course of doing two years of podcasting, I learned so much new shit, so much more stuff than I ever thought I would. And it really changed my clinical practice. And I'm not saying that I'm the best. I'm just saying that I'm better than I used to be. So if you want to take that journey with me, listen to all the old shows. There's some good stuff all the way down into the 60s, 70s.

There's good stuff back there, so check it out. If you're a patient and you're a patient that is really interested in what's going on with your body and interested in just the overall theme of how to improve yourself, not just being told what to do, I would call you an advanced patient, one that wants to know a lot more. This is a great podcast for you as well. Clinicians just know there are some basic topics sometimes in these ones that are, if they look general, it's because they're tools for you to send to your patients. Conversations that you probably had with them before, but they needed a little bit more of a refresher.

It's like sending them Star Wars and they can watch it 10 times. They're going to know it by heart. They're going to know all the plots. They're going to know all the characters. They're going to know all the lines. They're going to know all that shit. So if you want some really well-educated patients, I think sending these is a useful tool to you guys. Now, Jesse, we, again, met in that airport by a friend, Dr. Ben, Dr. Ben Ramos. And we walked around for basically four hours just talking. And the point was that Jesse was going to San Diego and we were coming into Arizona. And so one of the easiest spots to meet was the airport since we were all in transit.

So we just kind of walked around and just bullshit around. And Jesse has a podcast. I didn't know it. I had a podcast. He didn't know it. And probably the conversation around the airport with me, him, and Ben was probably one that could have been recorded. It would have been really valuable. I learned stuff during that. And I think we all did. So it was fun. So we decided, hey, why don't we just have you on and just see what's going on. You're a nice guy. I think I'm a nice guy. But anyways, so you guys decide. Now, before we get into the interview, as always, I want you to learn a little bit more about me because I'm your host.

And I think you should like your host. You shouldn't think he's a jerk or an a-hole. And he shouldn't be a mystery to you. So this is what we're going to do. So every episode, I tend to add a little bit personal, a personal flair to it so you guys can get to know me better. Now, if you guys don't already know as well, I have mentioned it quite a few times because I'm serious about this thing. I'm serious. I have a book. I didn't know how hard it was to make a book, actually. It's really damn hard to make a book. I actually have an audio version, too. So if you like podcast style, it's on Audible, too.

It's called I Will Beat Back Pain. And it's my personal story through two ventures of having back pain and being able to document and know what it's like from a patient's perspective and knowing the challenges of mentally wanting to get over the problem or being able to get over the problem and all the fears that you have, right? I'm sure you people have been told a lot of diagnoses that are freaky. Disdegeneration, arthritis, stenosis, you're out of alignment, you're getting old, all that stuff. You've heard it all. And it's very structural-based. It's very disabling. It's like, well, I'm degenerated.

What am I going to do about it, right? Well, nothing. You're not going to do anything about the degeneration. But you can feel better with that. It doesn't matter. Degeneration is not always painful. And I think clinicians, a lot of clinicians know this. We see them as signs, almost like wrinkles on the face, but they're not painful. So just be aware of that as you go through the book. The intention is not necessarily to lead people into buying my course. It is mentioned in there. But it's mainly to get people just into care, period, okay? Yes, there is a course in there, but those are for the people who live in the sticks.

So if you live in the sticks and you got nowhere to go, still no excuses because there's help right there. So I want you clinicians to use this book as a tool to get people into your clinic for help because not everyone takes the help that's out there. So let's use that book. Let's get into the personal story right now. And then we're getting on to Jesse Prescott. All right, so one thing you guys should probably know about me is that I don't want to consider myself a germaphobe here because I don't mind. Like, if you ever heard my story about the yellow feet at the airport, I hate those yellow feet.

It's just everybody is there on those same yellow feet. And I've never seen them clean nor disinfect that thing. So the whole thing about, like, airports and airplanes, it drives me a little bit insane. And so I get into the airplane most of the time, and I've never seen anybody clean a seat. I've never seen anybody clean a table, and I've seen people change their children on those tables. And I know about children, and they get a little poopy. So I ain't going to do it. So I bring these little disinfectant wipes, you know. But, again, I'm not a germaphobe. Like, I can go multiple times without even, like, fretting about picking up a weight or a barbell or picking up a shoe or something and putting food in my mouth after.

It's not a big deal. But there's something about airports that drive me a little crazy or public transport. So, anyways, I get in there, and I actually disinfect the counter or the table in there, and I do the little seat belt because I guess no one probably cleans that. One time I did the area where your calves go just because I had a little extra of these disinfectant wipes. And, by the way, that thing came off black next time you want to see something real dirty to clean that thing there. Everyone's sweating on it for probably years at a time. You never clean the darn thing. And so, anyways, just one time I only had a couple of these disinfectant wipes left.

So I cleaned the thing. I thought, real good, cool. I'm in this good spot here, and there's not any of these poopy germs anywhere. And so this lady comes up. The stewardess comes up. She's like, hey, can I get you to move? And I said, how come? She's like, well, because so-and-so in the exit row can't do their job. So they wanted to sit where I was sitting. So they basically force moved me. They didn't pull me off the plane like homeboy. But I got in this one seat, and I just disinfected the hell out of the seat. So it drove me a little crazy there. And at first I was very self-conscious about doing this because people think I'm crazy with it.

Most of the time people say, you know what? I've never seen them clean these things. Can I have one too? So I've given them to people on airplanes before. And I keep thinking if I go on enough flights, maybe I'll clean all these seats enough to where now we have nice, clean airplanes. So if you want to be on this movement with me, get those cabbie wipes that you have like in your office and stuff if you're a clinician. They have them in hospitals. They literally kill everything. So just wipe that thing down. And if you want to expose yourself to your little germs and stuff, go lick the floor somewhere else.

But I don't think someplace in a high traffic area is the place to go. I wouldn't lick the railing on a bus in San Francisco. Anyways, let's get to the content now. All right, everyone. Welcome on. Jesse Prescott from Flag. Yeah. Flagstaff, Arizona. Locals call it Flag. Yeah, I guess. So we were just we were just talking a little bit about your microphone. Yeah. I'll let you introduce yourself on your very deep microphone now. My very deep microphone that I just bought for a podcast interview. And it turns out, you know, that I'm a podcaster now, which is really weird to me because I just started a podcast because I just wanted to talk to people.

And then I interviewed you at the beginning of last week and you're like, you're a podcaster now. You should get a microphone. And I was like, a microphone. Why didn't I ever think of that? That was like 20 bucks, wasn't it? It was like 20, 30 bucks. Yeah, it's not bad. And it's the quality just goes up. And so, you know, I see all these like we were just talking about. I see all these people that do their podcasts with just the the AirPods or the standard Apple headphones, which is what I was doing. And, you know, then I was editing the podcast I did with you and I was like, God, his voice sounds so good.

Mine's just kind of like there. But I guess, you know, we could make that better. So then, you know, jumped right onto it. And it's so much better. It's bananas. Yeah, I think. So you don't have a pop filter right here, which I haven't decided whether I can hear anything yet. But apparently when you say the word Prescott, like it dulls the right. But yeah, I don't I like so I've listened to I hear people's podcasts because I like them. But also, too, I I when I'm listening when I'm going to interview someone, I want to hear what they've already done. And like, I appreciate them putting stuff out because it's hard.

And I've done it in my car, too, with earbuds and stuff. But it drives me fucking crazy to like hear echo and stuff because it's like the only media you have to digest this entire thing is fucking audio. Like, like, let's just get a mic for $30. Right. And so it's interesting because it takes it just takes that one voice to tell you something that you already knew that you kind of respond to. You know what I mean? So, like, for instance, you know, I've taken three rock tape courses and then hosted one. So technically, I've taken five rock tape courses. And then I was watching a video with Dr. Perry and he's like, hey, tape the system.

And I was like, tape the system. Why didn't I ever think of that? And then you're just like, hey, bro, get a get a microphone for your podcast. I'm like, cool. I'll do that right now. Yeah. I don't know. It's just it's weird. I'm glad you did. I think it'll I like your style of pockets is very pure, but it definitely the audio. There was this one experience where I had where I was listening to a it was a coffee podcast back in the day. And I was on an airplane and through the hum of the airplane, I could I could not physically turn it up louder to hear what it was. And it just turned me off to poor audio is all.

Yeah, no, I got it. And then there's been a few episodes that I've listened to on specific podcasts where I'm really into what they're saying, but I can't hear it. It just drives me nuts. And, you know, like you said, it gets really echoey or, you know, they start to kind of fade away and you're just making really important points. Like with these people that are like neurologists and stuff, you need to know what they're saying. Right. You need to be able to hear it. And so the information that they're giving you is difficult to process anyway. But then if you're struggling to hear what they're saying, then it's even harder.

And so, you know, I had those that kind of a similar but different experience with the DNS courses. You know, the three DNS courses that I took, they're all from Prague. All the women are from Prague, but they're all really soft spoken. And then they have those really deep accents. So you're just like, oh, my God, focusing so hard on what they're saying that by the time I get done with like the first day, I call my wife. She's like, what'd you learn? I'm like, I don't know. At a lip read? Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. So it's a, yeah, stepping my game up. I'm pretty excited about it. Yeah. I think it'll be a game changer.

The, cause, cause you're, you're, um, so the podcast is core, uh, corco, corco, corc, uh, kokoro, kokoro, kokoro. Yep. So I got that from, uh, Mark Devine from seal fit. Um, so, you know, back when I was deep into CrossFit, I wanted to do the most hardcore stuff ever because that's what CrossFitters do. And I came across seal fit and, um, I started watching, um, his videos on YouTube. And, um, you know, he does this thing called the Kokoro camp. Which is, uh, it's a, like a 48 hour, um, civilian hell week essentially. So you pay them like an astronomical amount of money and then go and just get tortured for like 50 hours or something like that.

And so then I really got into it and, um, looked up what kokoro meant and it's, uh, Japanese and it translates to heart, but not the organ, the spirit. And then eventually when I went through massage school, I just thought that that was a good kind of, uh, transition from, you know, my martial arts past to my healer future. Cause we're all just trying to heal the spirit. Right. And then it just kind of evolved from there to where now I have the Kokoro movement podcast and, uh, my business is called Kokoro movement and, you know, just kind of running with it. Do you, do people have your nickname as just Kokoro?

No. Ko? I don't. So the only nickname I have is from, uh, my mixed martial arts days. And it's just one of those nicknames where you're like, God damn it. That's my nickname now. So, so what is it? Now I want to know what it is. Uh, we were training. So, uh, my boxing gym at the time, you know, everything was all kind of spread out. Um, so I had, uh, we were practicing a lot of our MMA and jujitsu stuff in a, uh, Taekwondo gym. And then our, our boxing training, um, was in the corner of this warehouse that we shared with the unified school district. And there was one point you walk in there and they have like this command center.

That's like, I don't know why they had it in there, but it's like, you were going to get ready to launch a space shuttle type of command center. Are they going to call you commando? No, but then, so one of the sections of the command center was called mission commander. And one of my guys on the team was like, that's your nickname now, mission commander. And I'm like, fuck. You're mission commander now? Yep. So it's like, it's on my mouthpiece and everything. That's pretty badass. I'm like, I could do that. Yeah. At least it's not something. It's kind of a mouthful, but. Well, I'm sure they could shorten it to something.

Yeah. I'm telling you, commando. Commando. Mission commando. And so, you know, my other friend, he was on the fight team and he, you know, was depressed about losing his fight and was at the bar by himself being all sad. And some guy just kept bumping into him, bumping into him, bumping into him. And then finally he was like, hey, if you touch me again, I'm going to kick your ass. And so my friend just stood up and grabbed his shirt and just knocked him right out and then ran away. And so ever since then, we just called him Sledge. And that's like his nickname. But then it started CrossFit and it just became a verb because we just like, oh, you Sledge that just because he just somehow by the will of whatever was able to get like bench presses and cleans and, you know, farmer carries and all this crazy shit that you shouldn't be able to get.

Like if you're fatigued, just stop. But he just Sledged it and kept going. Sledged it. Yep. So his nickname's a lot better, I think. Yeah. I can command missions, I guess. You can go commando, I'm telling you. Right. I've been watching, you watch So Justified. Yeah, dude, I love that show. Yeah. All the names are amazing. Like Dickie and like, what are the other names? Like there's Boyd, there's Raelynn. Raelynn, yep. Yeah. They're so good. It's not like, it's not Winona. It's Winona. Yep. And they're all indicative of the region, too. It all makes sense, you know, where he's supposed to be at.

I know. It's perfect. Like there was all, like, but all their nicknames were, I gotta go back and look at all the nicknames too, but like, I want a badass nickname, like a Justified nickname, really. Yeah. I don't know how you get that. I guess you gotta go be a schmuck in the deep south, in the hollers of wherever. Well, if you're known all around town is like, you know, everyone says like, oh, hey, did you see commando the other day? It's like, there's only one commando and flag, you know? Right. Like, that would be the thing. Big Worm did that on Friday. Big Worm. So there's some people that exist in Flagstaff, Arizona that far deserve the commando nickname more than me, I'll tell you.

And you see them just hiking around. There's one guy, he's actually a former Marine, I think. And he has, um, like the epic, the most epic mullet ever. It's like, you know, an inch of hair on the top, but then it's probably like two feet long in the back. And he wears tight jeans and a shirt with the sleeves cut off. And he used to be like this, uh, uh, raging alcoholic, but now he's like a recovering alcoholic and isn't, uh, becoming a successful artist. And he just walks all over town. You see him literally everywhere. And he just is always like stomping around with his mullet in his backpack.

And he has those big old sunglasses on. It's like me. That guy's commando for sure. I don't know. We, we, we got this guy over here in Huntington that like, so he's, he's like, as soon as the sun, so he's, he's, uh, he's probably about like 50 years old or so. And he's like really tan all the time. And it's not just like a, like a tan, like a, like a t-shirt tan. It's like his whole body's tan and you know it because as soon as the sun comes out, he's got this rack on the back of his bike and like, he'll take all of his clothes off minus his tighty waddies and he'll just like roll around and you're like, how is that guy so fucking tan?

Oh, it's like, Oh, because every time the sun comes out, as long as it's not blistering cold, he will, he'll, he'll, he'll ride in his tighty waddies all over town. And it's that guy. Yeah. This guy's super tan, except he's doesn't do the tighty waddy thing. He just has the, the, you know, homemade muscle tee, but wears tight jeans and yeah, he's pretty, I don't know. It's a, it's a thing. Yeah. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you're not, you're that. Yeah, you're right. He is more deserving of commando. Yeah. Um, now that people know what to expect from your podcast, um, what do you want to talk about today?

Oh man, we could talk about anything. Um, you, you mentioned that, uh, you were really interested in kind of my educational path and you know, yeah, the, cause so you're, uh, like, uh, well, I'll let you tell it. How did you come to think how you do? And you're, yeah, I'm a massage therapist. Um, and initially I was really interested in physical therapy, but I just couldn't get past, uh, the math classes in the local community college, uh, for a myriad of reasons. One of the most resounding one is that I am terrible at math. I fucking suck at it. And so if you're not passionate about teaching it, then I'm not passionate about learning it.

Um, so then I started doing really bad in the more difficult classes like, uh, um, calculus and physics and stuff like that. And then, you know, kind of had, uh, um, this point where I, uh, missed, uh, passing my physics class by one point and started having stress induced heart palpitations. And my wife who's a nurse was like, you're not dying. And I'm like, no, I'm dying. And then the CrossFit gym I was at at the time, he, the, uh, ER doc. And I kept telling him my symptoms. He's like, you're not dying, dude. I'm like, no, I'm dying. It's like, but it was so bad to where, you know, my heart had such an irregular heartbeat and was like beating so hard that it would like wake my wife up in the middle of the night.

And so, um, uh, then, um, I'm going to rewind like a whole, like probably 20 years. So I went, um, all the way back to in 2000, I went to massage school initially, right when I graduated high school, because I looked at my dad, who was a massage therapist at the time. And I was like, he makes a lot of money. I can make a lot of money. And so went to massage school and then realized very quickly that I was 18 years old and didn't give a shit about owning my own business and didn't really know how to do it and was completely immature and had to go through all these life experiences. And, uh, so we're going to flash forward again, like 15 years.

And you're like a Pulp Fiction movie, man. Yeah, dude. Getting after it. Um, so then, um, one day I was like walking my dog out in the woods and I was like, I should go back to massage school because I only need another couple of hundred hours before I'm certified in Arizona. And so I went and I found out that they had financial aid and just kind of jumped on it. And it was a six month intensive program. And then when I got out, I, um, realized that I didn't want to practice the standard prototypical kind of full body massage stuff. I realized that I could do a lot better, but I didn't really have a direction.

Um, so, you know, I bought, um, Greg Cook's book, the movement and sort of reading movement and then, uh, kind of had a good idea of how the human body was supposed to function, but didn't really. And then, um, a friend of mine, I think he met him at, uh, Dr. Snell's course is, uh, Michael Bann. Oh, Mr. Bann. Yeah. Mr. Bann. I know about, I know all about Mr. Bann. Yeah. He coached, he was, uh, my wife's coach for a long time. And so I started asking him, Hey, how do you learn about breathing and how do you learn about core stability? And he started sending me towards all these different directions.

And he introduced me to, uh, nerve gliding and, uh, had me read the sensitive nervous system. And then, um, you know, it was just kind of off to the races from there. So I really had the, uh, DNS focus for like the first year or so. And then, uh, started getting really into the nervous system and then, uh, started taking, uh, different, um, uh, rock blades courses and, uh, rock tape courses. And then they started pushing me towards all these different, uh, books and people that I should be following. And then, um, my wife started her, she started having a lot of pain in her hip and was trying to kind of figure it out on her own.

And she kept pulling up videos. Hey, you need to do this. Hey, you need to do this to me. Cause this will make me feel better. Hey, you need to do this. And then one of the videos was, uh, uh, Dr. Perry Nicholson, uh, uh, teaching a, uh, neurokinetic therapy course. And so then I started really kind of focusing on muscle testing. And, um, then I went to, uh, DNS exercise two and there was this in during the lunch class, there was a, or during the lunch period, I should say, there's a lunch class. There's a lunch class. Well, we talk about that a lot, right? The, uh, that's when you learn the most of these courses is when you like talk to people and during lunch and before and after class.

Right. But, uh, anyway, yes, during lunch class, um, I was sitting there eating by myself and I look over and there's, uh, this guy doing all this different muscle testing on another individual in the course. And I was really interested in what he was doing. And then he worked on me the next day and it turned out that he was a chiropractor, um, did an hour's session on me and figured out all these, uh, neurological dysfunctions in my, uh, just everywhere, diaphragm, multifidus, all this different stuff. And then finally got to my occiput and just cracked one vertebrae and then everything turned back on.

And then I was like, fucking the hell was that? And so what are all these other chiropractors doing? This doesn't make any sense. And so then, you know, went down muscle testing rabbit hole and it's just rabbit hole after rabbit hole really. And then, you know, now I just have this completely kind of unique quote unquote massage practice that doesn't really fit into anything. So I'm just really, that's one thing that I've been really trying to figure out over the last couple of months is like what to call myself. Cause people like you just do massage, right? I'm like, no, I don't just, there's, there's a lot of things that you got to unpack a lot of stuff.

Well, how do you then when someone comes in or someone contacts you, like, how do you, yeah, how do you communicate that to them that they're not going to just lay there with candles and Barry White? Um, it's pretty evident right away. And so I think, uh, a big part of that is a lot of my clientele has come to me via word of mouth. And so, you know, it comes from the people that I work on talking to them and being like, Hey, this guy doesn't do the normal type of massage and he really does, uh, is effective in what he does. So you should go see him because he can get rid of your chronic low back pain or he can get rid of your shoulder pain.

And it's, uh, everything I do is just really integrative and it's just, it's makes it really fun because it's like a, I'm constantly like doing detective work to figure out what the actual issue is. Um, so, uh, you know, similar to how your website is, once people go to my website and start to see what I'm about, then they can start to look and see that I'm actually completely different. And then once they want to make an appointment, then I have them fill out my intake form online. And that's really indicative of how I function also just big, huge disclaimers. I'm not going to do full body massage.

I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do that. This is what I actually do. And I have like, this is what muscle testing is. This is where, what we're going to do with it. This is how it works. Uh, do you understand? And then I haven't clicked that. And then this is, uh, biofrequency therapy. This is what it is. This is how it works. Do you understand? And I have them so that make sure that they understand everything that I do before they come in. That's good. Yeah. Um, it's funny. There was a lady that came in to me a little while ago when she was, uh, she felt better when she was all done with stuff.

And I had her for a little bit of time, but, um, the first day she was very reluctant of, of actually continuing care with me. Cause she's like, uh, so we have a, when you first come into my office, there's, there's just like a 500 square foot weight room and people are, you know, picking up weights and carrying them and like, and not doing anything fancy. It's not like we're throwing weights around. It's just, they're just moving with a weight. And she was, she was an older lady and she's like, I don't think I'm in the right place. And I'm like, what are you looking for? And she's like, I want to feel better and do like, I want to feel better for, for this problem.

And I'm like, well, what do you think is going to get you there? And she's like massage. And I'm like, okay, well, why don't you give me a chance today? And then we'll just see if we can get you to feel better. And so we did. And through the course of time, uh, she would always drop these little things of like, well, I didn't really get a massage. And I'm like, I know you didn't. How do you feel? And she's like, I feel better. I'm like, good. And then at the end of care, at the end of care, she's, I'm like, how do you feel? And she's like, uh, she's like, oh, I feel so much better. And her arm didn't hurt and her leg didn't hurt and so on.

And then she finally, I think her last statement to me was that I never really got a massage. I'm like, I know you didn't. I never told you were going to. Right. Yeah. And that's a thing. There's a lot of stuff that I, uh, kind of have just personal issues with right now. One of them is being like, I, I need to be more in a gray, like kind of where you just were, because right now I'm like super black and white where people. They'll come in and like, this is exactly what I want. And I'm like, well, that's not what I do. And they're like, well, then I don't want to be here. And I'm like, okay, I'll see you later.

And you know, I just need to work on selling myself more because I have a big problem with that. Yeah. I think you're, I think you're in the right track, you know, like I know Ben is better at this than I am. And, uh, he'll, he'll, they'll say like, Hey, I want, I want you to tickle my hair. And he's like, yes, come in, you know, and, uh, he'll, he's, he looks at it as an opportunity to, to educate him, but they just happen to pay him at the same time. And I'll kind of like talk to him on the phone, um, for a little bit of time. And, and, uh, I think it almost sounds like a little bit of an argument, but I'm not being mean about it, but it's like, I know you believe that, but let's try this.

And if it really doesn't work, then I'll do what you asked, but let's, uh, let's, let's, let's see, you know? Um, so I think there is that gray area there, but I know what you mean. You, you kind of want to educate them, but they're very stuck in their beliefs sometimes about what they believe will work, you know? Yeah. And, uh, you know, I think that your book really articulates a lot of that very well. Um, well, thanks for reading it, by the way, listening to it. I think you're listening to it quicker than anyone did. Well, yeah, I crush it. I don't know. I'm, uh, used to listening to, you know, like David Goggin's book or, um, like right now I'm listening to, uh, a book by Graham Hancock, uh, the fingerprints of the gods.

And that's like a 15 hour book. And so, you know, I, uh, you know, Ben Ramos is our fearless leader with that. Like he just listens to audio books, like it's his job, you know what I mean? Like he, while he's driving, while he's cleaning. So I just try and do the same thing, just listen to audio books instead of sitting there and watch a TV, my brain. But, um, shit, what the hell were we talking about? Except for justified, except for justified. Except for justified, yes. And, you know, there's other ones like- It helps you communicate with little words. Right. Um, but, so then there's the other problem that I have where, you know, people know what I do and they know how I do it and they know that I can get results, but then they come up to me and they're like, oh man, I've been in back pain for six weeks.

And I'm like, okay, well, call me when you're done being shitty. Like, I don't know. So, you know, instead of being like, hey, why don't you come in for an appointment? We'll see if we can make you feel a little bit better. You know, I'm just like, oh, well, you didn't call me even though you know what I did. So I almost act offended, which is weird. I don't know. So, yeah, I, I don't know. I think people tend to, um, pigeonhole you or pigeonhole us as like what we're, we're good at. And, um, I know that, so when you think about, uh, when you think about McGill, you think of like the back biomechanics guy, but I'm sure he knows other stuff.

And, um, I've had like, this is one of my epiphanies over the last probably six months or so is that, so I've had some longstanding patients that they came in the past for something and then they, they improved. And then, so we're kind of on a text message email basis. Like we just check in and you know, I, I like them. I like talking to them. So then they're like, they're like, oh, I'm going in for an ankle surgery. I'm like, why? And they're like, oh, because it hurts. I'm like, just, just come in. Can you, can you come in? And this last guy that I did that with, like he, he improved so much in the first day that he's like, should I have that surge?

Should I have the surgery? I'm like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it yet. Why don't you just try this? And then I text, I realized I text him later. I said, just do me a favor. And like, whatever hurts, can you just talk to me first? Like I'm, I know it's not arrogant, but I know more than you think. And I'm not just going to work. I know I worked on your back stuff, but let's like, I'll be an assistant. So if I can't help you, I'll tell you, but I don't, maybe people don't realize that you can do more than what you helped them with, you know? Yeah. And there's a lot, you know, I have a, a kind of a wide scope of practice, I think.

And so that's, I can really help people in just a wide variety of ways. And I just need to figure out how to communicate that, um, better, you know? Cause I think, uh, you know, I believe like the, in the Gary Vaynerchuk thing, where he's talking about everybody's just consumed by social media all the time, you know? So then I try and put stuff out there, but I don't, you know, like the, like I said, I'm trying to figure out how to articulate everything to where it makes sense to where people are kind of attracted to what I'm doing and then will seek me out from there. Um, and I think that the podcast is a good avenue for that as well, because that's where you can really, uh, express exactly how you do it and, you know, give people a better idea of how that works and, and talking to like-minded people on the podcast.

Oh, well, this guy took this education from this guy and this guy helps people with this stuff. So he might be able to help me with that stuff too. So, you know, just trying to get it out there. Um, and then, you know, just trying to figure it out. Like if I want to do any kind of Instagram advertising or if, uh, you know, cause that's a rocky slope too, man. The, the advertising, it was trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. I know there's a whole other ball game of learning to run a business, not just clinical experience. And can you help people, you know? Yeah. And so the advertising part is something that I really have a hard time with.

And right now I'm just like trying to do the best job I can so that those people that come into me go and talk about it. And cause that's obviously the best way to get the people that you want and the people that are attracted to you is because they need what you have and the people that have that experience, talk to them about it. And they're your best sounding board for that. I think you're on the right track with the podcast too with, um, I know that, uh, I listened to one with, with Sue the other day and I think you're asking a lot of the right questions that the, that your patients would want.

Um, and I'll, and there's obviously more advanced topics in there, but, um, I, uh, I, I think, I think it's really helpful to, to do a podcast anyways, cause you think about the people who are listening to that stuff. It's like they don't have a short attention span. And like, you're, you're like 45 minute hour format, you know, like you have long attentions, man, people, and they're good people, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. And you know, that's a big part of the podcast is just because there's information that I want to have and then I'm sure everybody else wants to have it. And then, so just to ask those people, those questions and then you'll get to where you want to go.

Um, and initially I started the podcast to, um, kind of encourage massage therapists to seek out education that's outside of the norm. You know what I mean? So like, that was a big thing when I, uh, got out of massage schools, I didn't really know where to go in order to achieve what I wanted. And so, you know, luckily I had, uh, the advice of Michael band initially, and then, you know, started finding all the right people through all those different education courses. But, you know, when massage therapists first get out, they're like, I guess I'll take a cupping class and I guess I'll take some Qigong classes.

And, you know, I guess I'll take a deep tissue class. Like you don't really know what to do. And so I think a lot of people get kind of pigeonholed into just doing the prototypical massage therapy their whole life. What's, what's the, uh, the continuing education, uh, on, on massage? Is it, do you guys have an annual or? Yeah. So it's by, it's, uh, every two years we have to have, uh, 25 hours of continuing education. So it's not much at all. Like I got 150 hours last year and I don't think that, I don't think that, uh, a lot of it counted because, you know, the massage board doesn't really recognize a whole lot of it.

So I got to be really cognizant of that. Um, I know that I got enough just through rock tape and, uh, neurokinetic therapy alone. Um, but you know, uh, as I've kind of, you know, blown my wad, as they say with, uh, spending money on education, I really got to be focused on what I want to take in combination with what counts. Right. And so, well, what, um, what does the massage board allow? Like, are they, does it, does it have to be a hands-on? Does it have to be like a deep tissue or restorative or it has to be in that massage category? Can it be like actually, um, like I know with chiropractic, it's like you can, um, well, I'm sorry, take it back with, say with CSCS or NSCA, it's like you take an affiliated, like, um, like sports based thing, then it counts, you know?

Yeah. And so you really have to look at it. You have to go to their website and, and see what they allow and what's within those parameters. And so anything, um, that is certified by the massage board is allowed. So like you said, uh, the, any kind of manual therapy, so that would be like the neurokinetic therapy or, um, like Dr. Perry's course, the, uh, lymphatic mojo, uh, that's kind of the way to go, like any kind of rock tape course and anything like that. So like, you know, functional range conditioning or dynamic neuromuscular stabilization, or, um, you know, uh, one of my favorite courses last year was one that, uh, these two rock tape instructors did together, which was called top down, bottom up.

And that was, uh, uh, Courtney Conley and Joe Lavaca came together, um, and, uh, did a fantastic course on, on both the foot and the hip and how you can make people, um, better just by focusing on those two things and getting those two things solid. And that, uh, but that wouldn't count either because, you know, uh, anatomy of motion is another one that I have on my radar, you know, they wouldn't like the massage boards aren't looking at people's feet and being like, well, that's a common dysfunction that people should know about. You know what I mean? They're just, uh, I don't know. It's really like the knowledge is really basic and I feel like that might be one of my future goals is to kind of expand that a little bit to where that, uh, not only does the massage board encourage more of that then, um, but you know, kind of make it somehow applicable to where, uh, all sports massage therapists, quote unquote, uh, have an avenue to take once they get out because, you know, there's the fascial stretch therapy, which is a lot of other, uh, with, uh, sports massage therapists take and, you know, just, there's just more out there.

And I think, you know, just trying to, uh, expand my horizons has been very valuable, but I think that, um, there's a lot of other massage therapists that can benefit from that. Yeah. Well, I know that with, um, there's like in chiropractic a little bit, like we'll get, we're getting narrowed down these, I don't want to say just methodologies, but like thought processes or like, and then people do it with their, and this is not bashing on FMS or ART or anything like that, but you get stuck down those routes, you know, and it takes years to get down those routes and you kind of get stuck in that way of thinking and you don't really see what's on the other side.

And, um, so I think it's very, it's just very incomplete, you know? And it's, uh, it'd be nice to be exposed to everything really early and realize all of the stuff that you don't know. But yeah. Um, so is it basically that, sorry, I'm just really, I'm interested, um, so if it's like exercise based, like it doesn't count, like DNS wouldn't count? No. Uh, what if you put the hands on the hip while you move them? I think that that would take a lot of, I mean, I understand where you're coming from. It makes sense to be in you, but I think that, uh, the massage board just doesn't see that as something that's like a, uh, valuable information for massage therapists to know.

Really? Yeah. And so that just takes a lot of, that would take a lot of education on, uh, my part to, um, show them the benefits of all that stuff. Yeah. Hmm. There's, um, I should suggest a guy to come onto your show. He's, uh, Roy Corey. He's around here. He was, uh, um, he started as a strength coach and then he realized that he wanted to put his hands on people and be able to do more like manual therapy. So he got a massage license. So he does both now. Um, but I don't, I don't feel like I see that very often, but, um, you're kind of incorporating you first started as hands on, then you went into exercise.

It's like, we're all becoming pretty close to the same, you know, with different scopes of practice. Right. And I think that it's incredibly valuable because everybody, like the, the ultimate goal of everything is to have yourself move better, right? That's what the goal is, is to get everybody to just move optimally because if you can't, then shit starts going crazy. And that's why people have back pain or knee pain or ankle pain or neck pain is because they're not moving, you know? So, and we have this, uh, it's kind of a weird, uh, societal narrative where you get old and you should just stop moving.

And it's weird to me, you know what I mean? Because then I've had it, there was a couple, there's a couple of guys on my fight team that are like, Oh, I'm too old for this. Now I'm just going to stop doing everything. And I'm like, why, why, what do you mean? I'm too old for that. It is crazy. I'm too old, you know? Like, and you should take the sandwich out of their hands. Hey, you're too old to eat too. You don't fucking deserve it. Right. You need to burn your sandwich, bro. You know what you're going to get? You're going to get baloney because you're too old for real meat. Okay. That's amazing.

You get turkey bacon. That, I tell you, I don't get offended very easily. But when I go into Whole Foods and I want bacon and all they have is turkey bacon, I get so offended. You walk up to the manager, bro, bro. Do you understand what's going on in my head right now? The amount of just, it's a complete mix of emotions, just sadness and anger. And there's so much happening there that I just can't handle it and I just have to walk out. Well, they shouldn't even call it turkey bacon. They should just call it like turkey slivers or, you know, something. Like, don't call it bacon. It's not like bacon should be its own animal, you know?

Right. It's not pork or ham. It's fucking bacon. That's another thing that I don't really understand is how, you know, vegans are like, well, this is a vegan hamburger. And I'm like, why would you try and call it a hamburger then? They have all the fake chicken. Like, why are you trying to replicate something that you're totally against eating? It doesn't make sense. I don't know. By the way, why is it called a hamburger? It should be a beef burger because there's no ham in it. I agree. Maybe the early buns were made of ham. Maybe. I'm just confused what is what now. I know. Man. Now I'm thinking all about that.

God. Instead of where we were going. I forget. Oh, so that was, I thought this thought a while back is like, you said this is about old people not wanting to move anymore. And so I thought there should be like, you know, they start putting like those things that go upstairs and like those things on the side of the stairs, those chairs and whatnot. And I thought every person over the age of like 50, not 50, not the 50s old, but we're just going to condition them now is they start buying two story houses and the bathroom and kitchen are upstairs. Like they have to go up the stairs multiple times a day.

Yeah. So, so I had a kind of a, I had an epiphany at, um, an education course that I took in Dallas. Um, I think we talked about this when you were on my podcast, but I get off the airplane at Dallas Fort Worth. And the second I stepped foot into that airport, I realized that I was the fittest person in there. And I'm like, holy shit. In the Dallas airport? The whole thing. Like everybody I saw was just, uh, like terrible excuses for human beings. I don't really know a different way to say that, but you know, it got to the point where. Dallas is a central hub though. So they could be coming from anywhere.

That's what I'm saying. And so I think that's where I kind of started formulating like my personal, uh, definition of fitness, um, is just don't be a liability. And, you know, there, I was, I was walking to the bus to the bus that you take to go to your rental car. And there was this lady that was just, she could barely walk. Like she could barely move. And I was looking at her and then I started kind of flashing back to, to all of these different, uh, shootings and all these unfortunate events that were happening in Dallas at that time. And I was looking at her being like, there is nobody that's going to save you.

Yeah. And you're not saving anybody. Like, so in an emergency situation, like everybody's going to look at you and be like, you're no help at all whatsoever. Yeah. You know what I mean? So that's kind of where I started to, uh, you know, kind of unpack what my definition of fitness is. And then I hear this quote multiple times from, uh, Laird Hamilton, who's a big wave surfer and people ask him why he's sober now. And he said, you know, my job is to save people while I'm out there, while they're surfing 50 foot waves. And if I'm kind of hung over or if I'm a little bit stoned, then I'm a liability to the people that are surfing.

So my whole thing is don't be a liability. And so, you know, treat your body like you're going to go save somebody's life. And, you know, then that started to really resonate with me after that weekend. And, you know, it started to kind of like, you should be able to move your body. You should be able to, you don't need to run like a six minute mile, but you should be able to run a 10 minute mile. Like you should be able to, you know, and at a second's notice, be able to sprint without blowing a hamstring. You should be able, you know what I mean? You should be able to do all these different things.

And so that's kind of how I started training myself is like everything points to don't be a liability for people. Like you should be able to drag or carry somebody's body weight. Like you should be able to lift them off the ground. You should be able to do all these different things in order to be a capable human being. You know, like you shouldn't, like if you're, if you pull up to target and you get out of your car and then get immediately into one of those like little cart things and you don't have an injury and you're just doing that because you're overweight. Then get out of that cart thing and spend a few laps around target every day and you'll get so much healthier.

You know what I mean? Yeah, well, I think they get into the, there's, I like the liability thing, by the way. You should make a t-shirt of that. Don't be a liability. Yeah, I think Laird Hamilton trademarked that. Could get sued. Maybe you could say it a different way. The, I have a friend who, he came up with an original quote. I said he should go on his gravestone. He's a, he's a strength coach. He says, don't let your hip mobility be a, don't let your hip mobility be a spinal liability. Yeah, so don't let your hip mobility be a spinal liability. That's amazing. Yeah, I like that one. You can write that one down.

Yep. Who said that? Jesse Machado. That's awesome. But yeah, yeah, they, so I think there's, I think we all kind of know like what are the, like eat vegetables, drink water, move, you know, but I think there's all these little barriers of why people don't do it. And so, like, as I mentioned in that book, like there's, there's all these little things. And I think until we really address those, those mental barriers or the, or the defeating belief systems, it's really hard to like, I don't want to like, like I can empathize with, with, with these people, but I, I have a really hard time since I've already been through that with like the back thing and twice.

It's like, do, do your work, you know, like, like get over, figure out whatever your hangup is, uh, validated or invalidate it and, and get past it and ask for help, you know? And it's, it's just really tough that people don't do that. And they're very prideful, you know, and, uh, stuck in their ways. So. And that's the other thing that I, uh, really appreciated about your book is you really accentuated the fact that once you see somebody like me or somebody like yourself, we're giving you that homework for a reason and it's so that you can take care of yourself and definitely, you know what I mean?

Like my job isn't for you to come in once a week. My job is for you to feel better so you can go out and live your life, you know? So then that comes in with, you know, the eating your vegetables, drinking your water, like practice self-care, you know? And it's, it's interesting that there's a few people that have been clients of mine in the past. And when I tell them, this is what you need to do in order to make this go away and make you feel better indefinitely, they almost get angry, you know, like, no, you're supposed to do this. No, you're supposed to take care of yourself. Like I am just a, uh, facilitator to point you in the right direction.

You know what I mean? After that, it's on you, you have to take care of yourself for the rest of your life. I'm not going to be here forever. You know what I mean? Like I have goals and aspirations that aren't going to keep me in Flagstaff. I can't be your solid rock of health. Like you need to figure it out on your own. People get really mad because they want you to do stuff. You know what I mean? It's really interesting. Yeah. I get that. They, uh, they, they want an easy way. They want to lay there, I think sometimes. And, um, the, just, oh, I was thinking about the liability thing. You ever think about like, so you ever have like a, a wife that comes in and their husband has back pain and they're like, well, I really want to go hiking, but he doesn't want to go, you know?

So I, I think that, I think people need a reason to, to want to feel better. That's not really in themselves. So I think I like your liability thing because they're, they're kind of diminishing their partner's life, um, unknowingly. And, uh, for, for unselfish, I mean, it's, it's kind of selfish, but they just don't know they're doing it, you know? Right. And so that's a, that's a big thing that I've come across, um, over the last year or so and was really accentuated. Um, when I took that course in San Diego is that a lot of people, a lot of their pain is like largely emotional, you know? And so that's a perfect example of, you know, the wife's just, just beating this guy down.

Hey, I want to go on this hike. And he's like, I don't want to go. And then, so he like manifests an issue to where he can't hike anymore. You know what I mean? Instead of just being an optimal communicator. And so, you know, it's, uh, and it's obviously not just the women just giving the men. I was just thinking that it goes the other way too, you know, cause I see it, I see it in both directions all the time because that's, uh, one of the side effects of my job is I just become really observant and really focusing on what's going on with people. Like, that's why I love airports so much is cause I'm just sitting there.

Like, oh, that guy has back pain. Oh, that guy has deep pain. Oh, that guy is just an emotional disaster. I don't know. You know, you know, the, the observation at the airport, I think one of my favorites is when you get in the security line and everyone takes their shoes off, right? Yeah. And, uh, so I don't like those yellow feet, but, but I wear socks at the airport. And then, so people tend to not wear socks and then they, they, they go like this with their feet. Like, so they, they open them up, right. And they take the middle arch off and they walk around like this while they're getting through security.

And you can see like three at a time and everyone's like pointing at them. It's like, you guys, you should have known to just wear socks, but you can tell the germaphobes. Yeah. Or if you just realize what your feet are for, which is like walking on the earth and like then walk on the earth with your feet. You know what I mean? Like I, and then the airport won't be a problem because then you have like, you're used to this weird stuff called dirt and your feet are calloused and they're strong and ready to rock and roll. Yeah. And these little yellow footprints aren't going to hurt you. Those little yellow, you gotta, you're going to have to drill that one into me a little bit.

Cause those yellow, yellow, I had like, you know how Albundi had, had nightmares about feet. Yeah. Those little yellow feet haunt my dreams. I mean, I'm sure like for sure, be prepared and bring some socks for sure. Those little yellow feet, bro. Yeah. And so. I've never seen them clean that. Never. And it has more footprints in it than anything on earth. Right. And I'm just saying, prepare yourself a little bit. Like I work out barefoot all the time. I walk around my neighborhood barefoot. You know what I mean? You know, I, I do too, but I don't do the yellow feet. Yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. I guess I just am not as much of a germaphobe.

Well, I very, I very select germaphobe and it typically is public transportation or airport. Um, that's probably, that's probably valid. I should probably, but I, that's just not a thing for me because I always have socks with my shoes, I guess. You know what I mean? Right. I don't, I don't wear heels or anything like that. So I don't need to just have not like. You don't want, you don't wear those little platform ones? No. Well, how are you supposed to deadlift then? I dare lift barefoot. You need, bro. You can't deadlift unless you have raised heels. Come on. Everyone knows that. You can't, you can't clean unless you got lifters on.

Yeah. I beg to differ. It's, yeah, it's pretty rare. I, you know, that, uh, functional range conditioning course really, uh, brought to light how dysfunctional my foot was. And, you know, Dr. Spina asked the perfect question. Like once he showed us what we were supposed to do with our toes and our feet and then asked 80 people to try it out and probably 80 people couldn't do anything with their foot. Then he was like, well, how often do you use your feet? You're like, uh, and then he's like, so they should probably be stronger. Right. And I was like, yeah, they probably should. And, you know, then I started following, uh, you know, Dr. Courtney Conley and then, uh, bought that book, human locomotion and realize that your feet are really fucking important.

And if you're not using them, then that's causing dysfunction up and down the chain and whether your foot is the cause or not, it doesn't hurt to make your feet stronger. So then I just started working out barefoot and you know, I can deadlift the same amount and I can clean the same amount without my lifters. So that is, it's interesting. So there's a lot of, that's going to put me on a whole different tangent. So, you know, there's a, this book by, uh, Yuval Noah Harari, uh, called sapiens. And in that book, he talks about stories that humans believe. And like, one of them is money. Like, Hey, this is worse stuff.

And we're like, yeah, it's worse stuff. You know, and like the other one is, uh, borders where you're just like, if you go out in the middle of the desert, you can't be like, Hey, this is California right here. And then on the other side of that rock, that's Arizona right there. And you're like, really? Like these, these phantom things that we all believe to be true, but we just, and we just don't question them. Correct. And one of those, uh, one of those stories that's really interesting that I, uh, was listening to this podcast with, uh, Grant Cardone on the way out to San Diego a couple of weeks ago and he was talking about, um, how the mortgage, just having a mortgage is like the biggest lie ever.

And it's just like this brilliant marketing campaign that like banks were just sitting there being like, how can we get Joe to give us money every month for 30 years? Let's do more. I got an idea. Let's loan him money to buy a house and then let's do this marketing campaign behind it to where it becomes this huge public narrative, you know, and everybody just feels obligated to buy a house and that's how you become an adult. Right. And so I think that lifting shoes are the same way. And, you know, I fell into that trap right away when I bought, when I bought hook, line and sinker into CrossFit, I was like, I need lifting shoes so I can lift better.

I get a, I get a pair of lifting shoes in my office here that I haven't touched in years either. But I mean, they, like you feel so grounded in them at first, then you take them off. You realize that, oh, my feet feel grounded too. I can feel the floor. Let me, let me add one to that book then if the author of Sapiens is listening, Time Zones. Holy shit. Like figuring out on a podcast who you're going to interview, where they're at, and you're like, huh. And Arizona's the worst because you guys don't do it. Kind of. That's the problem. So we, there's the reservation, the Navajo and Hopi reservations do honor that.

Oh, my God. And they're smack dab in the middle of Arizona. So like if you're, so there was one time I was, for my wife's birthday, I wanted to take her to Antelope Canyon in Page. And so I thought we left on time. We were, it's like a two hour drive, totally killing it. And then I get onto the reservation and then the time switches. And when I look at my phone, I'm like, shit, we're an hour late. And then we get into Page, I'm like, oh no, we're on time. Cool. So that was just an emotional roller coaster. But yeah, so try the time zone thing. I think people just need to like get, like we just, like there's 24 hours around the globe.

That's just what it is. And if you happen to be in Kentucky and in the, like you go to work at midnight, but it's daytime, you know, it's like, that's just where it is. And like, like where, like that becomes your norm. It's just like, oh, I'm going to go at 12 o'clock. We just do military time. Like it drives me insane when I'm going to like interview people. I just don't know what time zone is. Just make a standard time. Right. And so there's a funny thing. There's this meme that goes around every once in a while. And it's around these two certain times a year when the time switch is literally everywhere else.

And it's, it's a, this native American chief. And he's talking about only the white man would think that you could cut a foot off the top of a blanket and sew it onto the bottom of the blanket and have a longer blanket. Yeah. It's a dumb idea. Why do we still do that? I think, I think we need to do movement on this. Um, yeah, everybody write your congressman. Hey, yeah. If Trump wants to salvage the legitimacy of his presidency, he needs to get rid of daylight savings time. Dude. Well, it had to be a global occurrence. Like in, like in China, it's like 3am and everyone goes to work, you know, in India, everyone goes to work at like, that would be their morning time is midnight.

You know, it's just, it just, people might fight over who gets to have the quote unquote normal time, but we'll all get used to it. And the next generation won't even know. But I think it's interesting that people, so this translates into what we do very well because people get comfortable just doing certain things and they'll complain about it. But then they'll just be like, whatever, we'll just deal with it. You know what I mean? Instead of making it, making the situation better. Right. And so like, um, God, when was it? When do you guys change time? Was it, uh, November? I think. Uh, all I know is spring forward and fall back.

And I don't know what day it is. Cause I was, I was some, I think I was in San Diego for a course and they're like, okay, so tomorrow we're coming in at a completely different time, but the same time. And I was like, that's dumb. Why do we do that? And so, but, but then people just complain about it for about a week or so. And then there's fall right back into it again. And I know, you know what I mean? And so I think that's really kind of prevalent to what we were talking about really, where people are like, well, I have this pain in my back and it's not excruciating, but it just bothers me all the time.

And sometimes it's worse and sometimes it's better. And I'm like, yeah, that's not normal. You should come in and let me look at it. You know what I mean? But instead they just established that as their new normal, you know, it's like I had a client come in and I've worked on her for a while and, um, you know, figured out all this, uh, this neuromuscular dysfunction and got her walked up and walking around. And then I taped it up and then she's like, my back is numb. I'm like, really? And so I start pushing it and she's like, no, I feel all that. And I'm like, well, your back's not numb. It just doesn't hurt.

She's like, oh, that was a good, that was a good dissection of terminology actually. That was good. Yeah. So, but then she just, you know, so there's people that just get used to being dysfunctional. It's really weird. Yeah. I would, I would agree. And I think that, like, I don't know, I don't know where it all comes from, but I would imagine one major one is like, oh, I'm getting older. This is what older feels like. And it's just, I find it really, I found it like, if that is the thing, I'm going to go down with the fight. I like, I think this whole thing's bullshit. Cause I got friends in their fifties who like, they look good, they feel good.

They don't have any major problems. And it's, then you look at the other 50 year olds and then they see, they see the one who's working, you know, that feels good. And they're like, oh, he's just a lucky one. It's like, that is the biggest cop out victim, like BS. It's like, do your work, you know, get over that hangout. Yeah. He's the anomaly. No, you're, yeah. He's the anomaly because he just decided to not stop doing things, you know? Yeah. I'm going to keep doing pull-ups. Everybody's like, wow, that 50 year old could do pull-ups. And it's not weird to him. It's just weird to you because you don't do pull-ups.

And so I think, uh, one of the, my biggest takeaways from, um, uh, you know, Perry Nicholson's primal movement chains, um, and like a lot of the DNS courses is, you know, we just don't spend enough time on the ground. And like the weirdest part about our culture is the older we get, the further away from the ground we go. We start getting higher beds because it's hard to, you know, get into the lower bed. And it's, it's, we, and it's just all because we stopped moving and stopped spending time down there. And so, you know, the oldest people on earth, they're from Asia. They sleep on the ground.

They eat on the ground. They watch TV on the ground. You know, they do all this stuff on the ground. So they're constantly getting down and getting up. So it's not a scary place for them. Well, the only thing that we do probably in our society to get closer to the ground as you get older is the midlife crisis when you buy that Corvette. Right. But then, but then you realize all the terrible life choices that you didn't have where you're like, oh, squatting is bad for your knees. And then you buy that Corvette and then you're like, shit, now I can't get out of my car. Yeah. I can only drive this thing once a week cause I got to recover from it.

I know. Well, that's a squat. That's how you get out of that car. You know what I mean? It's like, but then it's not a perfect squat either. That's another thing that I really try to, uh, preach in my narrative is that you need to build variants in all your different movements. You're not supposed to just squat this one way, you know? And I think that, you know, that was another important takeaway from the functional range conditioning stuff is like, you know, Dr. Spina and he talks about, um, you know, yoga, like there's this one way to do the warrior pose, but what if I feel it better this way?

Like, no, no, you got it. You got to stand this way like a warrior. No, but I feel the stretch better like this. Well, that's not how you're supposed to do it. Like, so stretch, however you feel the stretch, there's no specific way to stretch it. Like move your hip through all these different ranges of motion and then do it with load and then, and then squat. Yeah, I think people get caught up a little bit with the, uh, what is perfect for a sport versus what is perfect, you know? And, uh, like that's what squatting depth or perfect warrior or handstand or whatever. Um, cause they're, they're not realizing that the, the, the confines of that, uh, demand for that sport or yoga or whatever the hell it is, you know?

Yeah. And so that's, uh, you know, one of the interesting things that I've really been, I've been dissecting CrossFit for the last like two years, even though I've been doing it for close to a decade. You know what I mean? I don't do it as much anymore just because of the sheer volume of all of the movements that they're doing. Um, but that's beside the point. What I'm trying to get to is they're, they're like, this is the way that you're supposed to squat. I'm like, is it like, what if Dave can't squat that way? Like, what if, what if Charlie can't squat below parallel? You know, what if Mary over there doesn't, shouldn't be squatting at all?

Like then what? Well, you're supposed to, you're supposed to, you're supposed to, your toes are supposed to be pointed forward. You're supposed to have your knees out over your small toes. You're supposed to have your weight in your heels and you're supposed to squat below parallel every time. That's not how that works. I think, you know, like it just doesn't make sense to me that, you know, they, they could use the functional movement screen. Like, Hey, this guy can't squat below parallel. That's why he has low back pain because he doesn't have a hip and hips a liability for your spine. Right.

So it's like, I don't know if that's part of where I have a hard time. And then, uh, getting people to where they can squat takes a lot of time before you squat to like what I, what I started calling the competition standard. Right. Which is hips below parallel with the quote unquote perfect squat. Yeah. Well, I think that's where people get into, like I was mentioning earlier, people get stuck down this methodology and they, they get, um, married to the idea of that route and, uh, they don't really think about there's other situations where other possibilities might be quote unquote right. You know, so I think it happens to a lot of us in our, our earlier years.

And I think we, as we evolve, uh, I mean, I've learned a lot through this podcast that there's other ways and I'm sure you have to with yours, you know, in your practice. And, you know, I, uh, was fortunate enough to start out in jujitsu where you need a lot of hip mobility. So then I came into CrossFit with hip mobility, but I did have hip dysfunction. So, you know, and I, it's just glaringly obvious cause I did a video blog for, uh, a long time because I was training for a jujitsu tournament and I started, you know, doing CrossFit as a supplement to that. And then my whole family in California is like, Hey, what do you do for your training?

And I was like, that's a loaded question. And so I just started doing a video blog for, uh, the 30 days previous to the tournament. And I go back and watch my squat now and I'm like, Ooh, there's a lot, there's a lot going on there, you know, but, uh, it's, it's just such an interesting, uh, thing to me. And so when I was talking to Andrea Ospina about it during, uh, one of our bathroom breaks, he was just like, Hey, CrossFit's a great sport. And I'm like, it is a sport. Even if they, people don't think it is, they're like, no, bro, it's a lifestyle. No, it's a sport. And you're training for it because you compete every day and you shouldn't be competing every day.

And, uh, yeah, CrossFit's really interesting to me. Um, especially because I'm pulling so far away from it, but I still coach it. It's just trying to figure out, um, the good things about it. And then the, like, um, cause I'm really focused on the negatives right now. And so, uh, trying to spin a positive narrative to where I still feel like it's acceptable for me to coach people through it. Yeah. Well, I think, I think everything's got its pros and cons. And I know that when, you know, with CrossFit as being one of them, like we, we know the, we know the benefits and, um, but the problem is, is as healthcare, we want to mitigate the risk, you know?

And, uh, so I think, I think the August stuff like that, but I don't know, there's, uh, there's, there's definitely a couple of things that I've, I've considered. I'm like, Hmm, do I want to take a stand on these? It's like, Hmm, well, they got a lot of money. They would bury me, so I'm not going to even bother with it, you know? So it's totally not worth it right now. I'm just speaking my opinion, you know what I mean? Like, and everybody's entitled to their opinion, but if they're going after somebody like Coca Cola, I probably shouldn't jump into that fight, you know? Right. Yeah. There's, I mean, I've, I've, I've done CrossFit for years and, you know, I, I don't anymore.

It just, it's, yeah, I think you go through phases of life of different things. And like, I've gone through phases where I, uh, run more. I have phases where I lift more and I have phases where I do, you know, nothing. And, uh, I think, I think they're all phases. Um, and it doesn't mean it has to be like the only thing forever. Right. Um, yeah, that, that you don't have to latch onto one thing. I think that's really important for people to kind of understand, especially, you know, you know, listening to your book, like you just grew up playing baseball. And so then once people realize that they don't really have a patient passion for baseball anymore, they just stop doing things.

You know what I mean? They're just like, well, I can't play baseball anymore because my knee hurts. So I'm just going to stop. Yeah. No, you could do other stuff. Well, I think, I think people get lost too with like, so I was thinking about it cause it in the coming week after I'm doing some interviews, people are interviewing me for that book and I'm like, Hmm, what interesting story could I tell them? There's an introduction that would kind of like make them understand the mindset of writing the book. And, uh, like I only really lift to play baseball. Like, yeah, I like, so there's a purpose and I, and I think people get lost in that a little bit is they do, they do a shit ton of fitness and weightlifting and CrossFit and they lose their why, you know, like there was a purpose at one time, but when you achieve that, like you said, you, you deadlifted five pounds, 500 pounds.

At some point there's a, there's a, there's a more liability than needed to attain what you already did. So, right. Right. And then you see, cause then you start to think about, so I think one of the things that I've been contemplating over like the last year or so was like, what do I do for life? You know what I mean? Because I would always be training for something, you know? So now that I've kind of transitioned out of my competition phase, now I'm like trying to wrap my head around how I train for life. And right now, like I'm planning on being alive longer than I've been alive right now. Does that make sense?

Like, so if I, if I live for like another 40 years, then that's longer than I've been alive and that doesn't make sense to my brain. And so how do I train like that? And so, you know, for me, I'm not training for anything specific, really like it's, it's my hobby and it's my passion. And I love doing it because I love, you know, exploring all these new different movement patterns that are helping me, uh, maintain the strength that I've earned over the last eight years and also continue to improve in my mobility and my athleticism. And, uh, it's, that's like my hobby, but then, you know, there's other people that pick up CrossFit to be better at baseball or volleyball or whatever it is that they do.

But then they just get sucked into the, the competition aspect of CrossFit and start only training CrossFit. You know what I mean? But then they're unprepared for all these other variables. And so that's where I think a lot of injuries happen, you know, cause I've had a lot of CrossFit athletes who used to play a lot of volleyball and then they started doing CrossFit and they did CrossFit for six years and they go and play one volleyball game and get injured because they're not used to any kind of explosive lateral motion. You know what I mean? So then they go and dive for that ball and then tweak their knee or their ankle.

They're like, damn it. Now I'm injured. You know, so it's a, it's really interesting how we just kind of get sucked into this one thing. Right, right. Yeah. It's a, the, the, the gym work. I, I tend to think the gym work is a good, it's a supplemental to make a better athlete, but it shouldn't take precedence over being the athlete or the human or whatever. Cause we're all, don't have aspirations to be athletes. We just want to live, you know, but it shouldn't take precedence. Um, as we start to wrap up here, what do you, uh, what do you want to add? What do you want to cover that we didn't cover?

I think we covered just about everything. We talked about everything we're moving to Turkey bacon. I think we got to cover. I forgot we talked about Turkey bacon. Yeah, man. Oh man, that's, it's debatable. That might've been the best part of the conversation. So I usually do a snippet in the beginning and I can't tell if I'm going to do the one with you not wanting to be a liability or just about Turkey bacon. They're both pretty good. I feel like, I don't know. It's good. It's good stuff. Yeah. Well, how can everyone find your podcast and, um, whatnot? Uh, so I'm on, uh, Instagram. That's what I'm, uh, most active on.

So that's, uh, Kokoro. That's K O K O R O dot M V M T. And, uh, my website is kokoromovement.com. And so that's pretty much where you can find all my stuff. And we can just type up on iTunes and Stitcher and all that and it'll come up. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I'm not on Stitcher. I'm only on iTunes. I'm just on that one platform. Oh, we gotta, we gotta get you. Oh, who's your host? Uh, Libsyn? No, I'm on SoundCloud. Mm. Okay. We'll talk off air. All right, dude. Uh, thanks for being on. Uh, don't go anywhere yet though, but thanks. This is great. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. Yeah, man.

Jesse, thanks so much for being on. That was amazing. Now, if you guys are looking for Jesse, he is in Flagstaff, Arizona again, and you can find his podcast, which I will probably butcher the name because I'm just not good at saying names period, damn it. But it's called the Kokoro Movement Podcast. That's K-O-K-O-R-O Movement Podcast. Look it up on iTunes. So I will put a link in the show notes too, like I said. So if you guys have not already, please review this podcast. Go onto iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you're at and say, hey, I like this. Thanks. I learned a lot. Or, hey, this thing sucks.

One star. Do better. Whatever it is, just go on there and, uh, let me know. Um, also too, if you guys are looking for me on iTunes, um, not on iTunes, sorry. I take that back. If you're looking for me on social media, uh, Instagram is the easiest way to get ahold of me. It's Performance HB. And it's also that on Facebook as well. I'm a little bit less active on Facebook, but I will respond. Um, and I mentioned this because I would love all the listeners to actually chime in and say, hey, just say, hi, how's it going, man? Thanks for doing this podcast. I respect that. Thanks for the work. That's all I need.

I like it. And I'm asking for that because I, it's, I'm not going to lie, it's lonely on the side of the mic. On the other side here, I'm in a closet almost in my office and I have a, I'm staring at all this phone board and you never know who's listening on the other side. But I know, I see the numbers. I see people are listening out there, but I know, I don't always hear what changes it made in their life because this podcast has changed my life. I know that I've learned a lot of things that I never would have known if I didn't interview the people that I did. And also too, if I wasn't able to expose some of the vulnerable aspects of the things that I don't know.

So, and I think that's all what doing a practice is, is you're just learning as you go and you get better over time. And all of a sudden you retire and you're like, damn, why did I, why did I retire? It was the top of my game. So I'm trying to hit that point a little sooner, not the retiring, but the top of my game. So as always, leave people better in how you found them. And Dayton Eagle Scout. See you guys.