Moving from passive care to active care for lasting pain relief

Honestly, I couldn't tell you why I kind of switched gears. I think a lot of times the clubs we were in, so like Rehab to Performance was one of them, and Sports Injury Council, we would have speakers come in for certain professional teams. And a lot of them never really sounded like they were happy with their position they were in, to be honest. Oh, really? Yeah. Did you ask them that? Yeah. There was the interviewing part of it. They come in and teach you something, and then there was just like, all right, we want to ask you a question because you're this cool chiropractor working for them. This professional team, and a lot of them are, you know, it's this whole idea of like, you have to stay in your lane as a chiro. Like, you have to just do this, and there's no room for you to do any of this other stuff because the team itself has people to do all those other things.

You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey, everybody. It's your host, Sebastian, with Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. This is your first time. Welcome. This is where movement providers come together to improve their skill sets and to improve our patient outcomes. So there are a lot of great podcasts in the archives, so I want to force you to go back and listen to all of them because they're about 45 minutes to an hour-long format that they're crap that you're not going to get anywhere else.

So there's some interviews, and there's some where we're talking a little bit more simple to get our patients to understand just basic anatomy, what we expect of them, and just get them to understand a little bit more about what's going on with their problems. So hopefully you like this enough to subscribe. Subscribe. Subscribe now. Thank you. And we're going to get right on to the show, which is going to be an interview, as you heard already, with somebody. And this is Dawne Costantino. I've gotten better at saying Costantino. Yeah, she's right here with me, and so we're going to do a little bit of a back and forth some.

But the purpose of this podcast is to get to know Dawne Costantino a little bit because she is a now, I hate saying associate, but you work with me. And I've worked alone for like, I mean, I did have an associate doctor before for about a year, but I've spent all my time just not having another doctor around. So in that same transition, it's challenging for people to really value you and understand who you are because you're newer. And so I thought this podcast would be a good introduction so everyone can understand who you are because I think you're pretty good. And I learned the other day you're 26. I didn't know my age.

I had no idea. I was going to go with 37. What? Oh, what? Is that old now? Is that your age? Actually, no, I'm not your age either. I'm 38. Oh, there you go. But no, all the stuff that you know in the way that you're functioning with patients, I wish I would have known a long time ago. And so I don't. So every time I get a phone call, I'm like, yeah, just go with Dawne Costantino. She's good. I trained her. But then it really comes down to do they trust you? No, you're not yet. So I thought that's what we get into today. Cool. Everybody, meet Dawne Costantino. Dawne Costantino, tell everyone about yourself. What do they need to know?

What do they need? What's the most important thing they need to know about Dawne Costantino? Sheesh. So general. You don't have to go into a life story. Dawne Costantino grew up back in Whittier. All that crap. Just go into it. What makes Dawne Costantino tick? That's interesting. What do you think about at night? What do I think about at night? That's, well, you know what? Okay. So I think that what I think about at night when I lay down and go to bed and think about my next day or just kind of think about what happened that day. I always think about what I could do better. To be honest, I always sit down and think, how could I, what could I have done better with that patient?

What could I have done better to be more productive today? What could I have done? And I don't mean that in a sense of like, it's like negative self-talk or anything like that, but it's just like, okay, so I'm happy with how today went, but what could, what could have been improved? So that's something that I always think about, one, for myself, and two, I always have these thoughts of just like, who's one person in my life right now that I could help them improve themselves? And that's something I think maybe I struggle with, but it's also a strength in a way because sometimes people don't care for your help and you give it to them, right?

So that's one thing I've had to learn the hard way. But I think that's why I love my career choice so much is because I, ultimately what brings me happiness is helping people. And so when people come to me, they're already asking me for my help. And so then I can give that to them. Yeah. Getting them to, to take your, accept help is a, is a challenging thing. So maybe, so tonight you're going to think about how can I improve how I offer help to people so they, I can do part two of what I, my, my thoughts tonight are going to be, how could I be better on these podcasts? How could I slow down how fast I talk?

Yeah. I think you fit. I think it's, you can, I can hear it. I mean, I can hear what you're saying, but, uh, did I tell you that when Kyle, when I interviewed Kyle, he's the only one who I did a repeat interview with? Yeah. Well, you have that on the podcast, actually. You're like, we had to redo this podcast because Kyle wasn't happy with it. I think that's great though, because sometimes, especially when it's your first time being like interviewed or on a podcast and you know that people are eventually going to listen. And you know that you want to come off a certain way and you know, you want to get your point across, but it's just, sometimes it just sounds like gibberish and you're like, it definitely could have done that better.

So can we, can I get a redo please? No, no, no, no redos. This is an hour. Get it right the first time. Okay. I'm good with it. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. So you're trying to improve. So do you write it on red lips, red lipstick on the, on the mirror where you're like, okay, here's what I need to work on. To be honest, I have a, um, I have a notebook. So before I go to bed at night, I always write down, um, what I think my next day should look like. That's something that I've been working on because balance has always been kind of a struggle for me. Um, so how do I balance my next day so that it's not just all about work or, um, all about a book that I'm reading.

It's just finding time throughout the day to meet all the little things that I want to accomplish. Um, whether it be career, family, friends, whatever it is. And so I, um, that's, I don't use red lipstick, but I use a black pen and a piece of paper. Oh yeah. The, um, yeah. What did they ever, when they did it with red lipstick, I feel like they never really intended to come off. It was more of like, I hate you type of thing. I don't even know what you're talking about. Is this a movie? No, I think, I thought it was the thing that like, like people would write in red lipstick on mirrors and like in a bathroom and then just take off, you know, cause it's waxing.

Like a public bathroom? No, like in, in like their bedroom or like, you know, hating on their, whoever else was there, you know, like, like have a good day, asshole. I don't know who you're hanging out with. Yeah, I don't, I'm sure they've been in movies back in the day, but yeah, they don't do it anymore. Now they just text them. Okay. Um, but okay. So what, what did you write this morning? Um, so today was record with you, um, do our posts, um, read a certain amount of pages and the low back McGill book. Um, I'm doing a beach cleanup later. I saw that on the schedule with a friend of mine. She was like, do you feel like going to the beach and cleaning some stuff up?

I was like, sure. No, it's great. Um, doing that and work out at some point. Normally it's in the morning. Cause once the day goes on, it's hard for me to like find that energy and motivation at the end of the day. Um, so I'm one of those early morning workout people, but I will work out at some point today. You got it done yesterday. I did, I almost did. I almost forgot. And then I think there was just somebody where I looked at them with a weight in their hand and I was like, I haven't done that today. Gotta do it. I was surprised you got it done between like, cause I interrupted you from the, you went right back to it.

Yeah. Had to finish. Had to, I had to do my hinge and my push. I did all the other ones before. Oh yeah. Um, okay. So why did you become a chiropractor? I don't think I've ever asked you before you started working here. Um, so my story is always, um, so when I was younger, I found myself in, um, medical doctor's offices a lot. Um, and it was usually with like just stomach issues, just like certain stomach pains and things of that sort of diagnosed with like, um, H pylori at one point that causes ulcers and all kinds of stuff. So no matter what I went in for, it can pain related or whatever, I was always prescribed antibiotics, just no matter what I was given antibiotics.

Um, and it just like after a while, even as a young kid, I always like, this just doesn't make sense to me. Why am I always given the same pill for different things that I'm coming in for? Um, so that was one thing that kind of like put a little trigger in my head. And I was like, I know I want to work in healthcare, um, because I don't, you know, I don't want to sound terrible talking about our healthcare system or anything like that. But, um, I just knew that I always wanted to try to be better than most of the visits that I had personally. Um, so then I found myself in a chiropractic office one time, I think when I was playing soccer, um, and somebody had recommended just going and seeing a chiropractor.

So I went in and it was eyeopening to me that I got an entire hour with a doctor. Um, they looked me in the eyes. They asked me questions, not only about what was going on with me and more in depth, but also once they started treating me, they got to know my life. Um, wanted to know more about me and people in my life, all of that kind of stuff. Um, and none of it was ever just take this pill and get out of my office. It was, let's see how we can improve these things going forward. And I was like, ding, ding, ding, this is what I want to do. So I knew I always wanted to be in healthcare. Um, and I think it was just my experience with a chiropractor that made me realize that's what I wanted.

Yeah. I feel like a lot of people had that situation when they, they've gone into school. Although I did learn the other day that some people have never been to a chiropractor when they go to chiropractor school. I honestly, that blew my mind when I met, there was a lot of people in my class that. Why? What did they, what did they do? Maybe I should, I don't know. I don't know. It's just like, how do you know you want to be that if you haven't even experienced it yourself? It's so interesting to me. No, but they did it and they love it. Yeah. I've, um, I, I'd heard of even some people have never been really, uh, they'd never been really injured, you know, and they've, they've never been to a chiropractor or a PT or anything.

Um, but they want to go in the profession, this profession. I don't quite, I don't quite understand it. I feel like there's a bigger learning curve with that because they never really have a personal story of, of what it's like to be as a patient, you know? Oh, absolutely. It's so funny because I feel like nowadays I've been experiencing a lot of these like aches and pains myself. Um, and it's, it's so weird, although it's painful, I'm enjoying having this pain because then I'm like, ah, I've never experienced this before, but I've treated people for this. Now that I'm experiencing myself, this is kind of cool.

Although it's like frustrating because I'm like, I just want to ride my bike without left leg pain, but it's fun to try to like take yourself through it. Ask for people around you for help. That's the one thing is asking people around you for the help. Cause you won't hold yourself accountable. To be honest, I'm probably the worst patient myself. Yeah. It's, uh, it's nice to tinker with the buffet. You don't do anything to address it. Yeah. I always thought it'd be nice to have, uh, every problem for an hour and that's it. Like, I don't want to, like, I don't want the intense ones either. I just want like a, like a bare bones.

Like, okay, that's what it's okay. If this was worse, oh yeah, that'd be. And that's it. I don't want to deal with. I think I got really lucky on my years of playing sports too. Like I just had like ankle sprains and especially in women's sports, like there was always knee injuries and I never had any knee injuries, which was really nice. I always had like groin pain, ankle sprains and headaches. Headaches was like another thing I always dealt with myself. So I actually thought at first when I was a chiropractor, I was like, I'm going to, my niche is going to be headaches. I don't know where that like ended up.

I didn't never end up following that path, but you can still get some headaches somewhere. I love it when I get actual people that say, not that I love it. Cause having people that have headaches is awful, but, um, because I've experienced it myself and I know what works for me. I'm like, Ooh, okay, cool. Let's get into this. Cause I'm pretty good at dealing with headaches. Okay. Yeah. What's, uh, what were your headaches like? Mine were always like, they started at the, um, the base of my skull on both sides, sometimes just worse on one side compared to the other. Um, and they always radiated right behind my eyeball.

And usually it's always my left eye. I don't know what it is. Even like hangovers. I get like a headache, just a stabbing pain behind my left eye. Um, but it was never like anything over the top of my head. It didn't really feel like tension headaches or anything like that. It was just sharp stabbing pain, um, behind my eyes. And then sometimes it was like, it just light hurts and I need to just go to bed. Advil was always my thing at first. Cause it was like, no matter what I do right now, Advil is just the only thing that takes this away. That's why you had H pylori diagnosed. Probably honestly.

Um, but yeah, that was usually what, what it felt like and what would help it. But the more I dove into it when I was in Cairo school, it was stress related. Um, and it was diet. Yeah. For me specifically. So just don't go to Cairo school so you can spend time cooking. Seriously. Yeah. No, I think it's just finding balance, finding, um, ways that, you know, in Cairo school, it's so hard though. Like your whole life is the classes and all of that. And then just trying to stay healthy through it. Um, but finding, finding that balance and just figuring out how to like, you know, deal with your stresses is probably would have been a better, better way for me to deal with it than just pop an Advil so I can study till 4am.

Yeah. You studied that long? I was actually more of a, I got to get to bed before 10 and I'll wake up at 3am, 4am to study. That's always been me. I work better in the mornings more than anything. As long as I really have to talk to anybody, I'm okay with like opening up a book. At 3am and reading and studying then. So you can, or in the morning, I know Allie doesn't, she's first hour. She's like, like, don't talk kind of thing. Or like she doesn't talk, she'll listen, but she won't really talk that much. Are you, you morning talk? You just don't morning talk? I don't morning talk because I feel like I don't make sense.

So I just like, instead of looking or sounding like a fool, I'm just not going to say anything. I can listen. I'm okay with listening to people, but I just can't put words together in the morning. Is that on your list? Don't speak for an hour? No, I think honestly, if I have to see a patient at like 9am, I'll make sure that I allow myself enough hours in the morning to like, just get my brain going somehow. I always will go for some sort of walk with my dog and like read a book. So like that gets the engine running. And then at least try to speak to somebody before coming into the office. And the patient is the first person that I say words to, because then it's just not going to sound good.

Yeah. I'll have to make sure to call you first thing in the morning and say, so what are you writing your thing today? Well, remember that time we did that podcast, we were supposed to do it at 11 and you're like, oh, actually let's do it at 9am. And I had like just woken up. Oh yeah. And that's why I felt like I sounded like gibberish on the first part of that podcast. Oh yeah. Yeah. I thought it was just like the, the, like the connection. I remember the connection. I had a connection issue at that point. I was like, is she not hearing me? She didn't hear the question. I said, um, no, just not putting words together.

So, uh, when you, when you went through chiro school, then you, I know you and Sarah have talked about before, like you thought you'd practice a certain way. Uh, what did you want to do? I originally started the program being, um, very interested in going the sports med route. So I thought that I wanted to, um, try to score a spot with a professional team, um, work sideline events, things of that sort. Um, and I'm glad that I chose that because then the, the classes and the schooling that I got was not necessarily different than the rest of, um, the people in my program. Um, but you get a little more in depth with diagnosis, um, and you get more in depth with active care rather than just passive care.

Um, so I'm really glad that I chose that, but honestly, couldn't tell you why I kind of switched gears. I think a lot of times the, the clubs we were in, so like rehab to performance was one of them. Um, and sports injury council, we had, we would have speakers come in, um, for certain professional teams and a lot of them never really sounded like they were happy with their position they were in, to be honest. Oh, really? Yeah. Like they were like, you ask them that. Yeah. Like people would, you know, there was like the interviewing part of it. They come in and teach you something. And then there was just like, all right, we want to ask you a question because you're this cool chiropractor working for this professional team.

Um, and a lot of them are, you know, it's this whole idea of like, you have to stay in your lane as a chiro, like you have to just do this and there's no room for you to do any of this other stuff because the team itself has people to do all those other things. Um, and then it was just this idea of like, there's really no money in it either with how much time that you're putting into it. Um, so that might've, I hate to blame it on the people who were in that position, but I kind of was like, huh, I guess I don't, I don't know if that sounds good to me at all. Cause I'm the kind of person as a doctor, I, not that I want to do it all, but I want to do a lot.

I don't want to just like have to stay in my lane a little bit. I want to do active care and I want to talk to you about what's going on in your life. And I want to do more things than just like what's required of a chiropractor in quotations. My fingers went up. So, uh, did you ever just ask the people, so why don't you just change your job? Just sit back and just watch them squirm or. No, I didn't. I didn't. Yeah. No, but yeah. So then as I transitioned through the program, um, I just realized that I knew that I was going to do a lot of rehab stuff. Like I, I going through the program and, um, working with patients and clinic and stuff.

If it was the first part of the visit would always be TLC massage, adjust that kind of thing, get to talk to them a little bit. And then I would always at least I'll leave a little bit of time to go over exercises. I wanted them to try and they could do a couple reps and that's all we had time for. Um, and honestly it wasn't until there was another doctor's office I was interning in that we had some time to spend doing rehab. Um, but most of it like that almost a whole hour was just soft tissue. And it's a long time, it's a lot. It was, it hurt my thumbs like crazy talk about you couldn't talk about anything because honestly it was making them scream.

It was put so much pressure that they're screaming on the table, but you, they, people expected this when they came in the office, they knew that's what they were going to get and they were happy with it. Um, but yeah, it wasn't really until here with you in this office that I was like, holy crap, like this stuff works and it's just learning it more and educating people. Um, and I still love putting my hands on people because I think there's a time and a place for it. And I think it allows for that connection. Um, but I don't spend as much time doing it anymore. And now it's just all of this active stuff.

I think that's what I love the most about it is, is, uh, making people hold themselves accountable. It's like, here, I'm going to give you the tools and you need to go do what you got to do because you spend more time with yourself than you do with me. And that's important for you to know what you need to do at home now. And I'm sure they, I'm sure they appreciate that, but they still want the hands on. You know what though? In the very beginning of practicing, I used to take it personally. If, uh, people wouldn't do their exercises at home and then they'd come back and they're not getting better.

I would question myself. Like, did I choose the right things? Um, is there a better way that I can communicate this to them? How important it is? I was just questioning myself. And then I realized, you know what? Some people just aren't your patients. They want you to do all the work and they need to go find someone who's going to do the work for them. Cause I'm not going to be that person. I'll do a little bit for you. But then after that, I need you to do the work. And so now I've realized, I don't think I need to change anything about myself. I need to stick to what I know works and what I see works and what I think works best for people.

Um, and if that doesn't jive with you, that's okay. There's people out there that will, you'll find a doctor that, that jives with you. I can't, you know, you can't connect with everybody. Yeah, I agree with that. I think we did talk about the other day though, about there's, I know I, I still, I saw patients from, you know, Sarah keeps reminding me, I keep saying 10 years. She says 12, like, okay, 12 years, 12 years ago, um, that I, that I, that I worked with, you know, on and off, you know, a couple of times a year and they come back in for the same thing that, you know, I used to do 10, 12 years ago with them and they like it, you know, it's what they expect.

Um, and over the course of the years I've said, you know, we should try this. Like we want to try this. Cause I think this will actually help you more and, uh, they don't bite. And so, um, you know, I, I give the service that they want, but I kind of take it the, I go the other direction on those is I used to take it more personal too. It's like, ah, they're just not listening, but it's like, this is what they're, I see it as this, this is what they're open to at this point. And some people will convert quicker or they trust you enough to do what you ask. Some people are the fear of doing those things is more, um, more apparent than actually, you know, than, than the reward possibly.

But yeah, I, they, they get result, they get results and they're happy with what we're doing. So I just, I just leave it. Um, but everyone's small, I'll kind of touch and say, Hey, you want to, you know, and they're like, they're like, no, you talked about last time. I'll be like, I know I'm just going to keep trying, you know, but they, you might find people that they just, they just, that's what they are doing. That's what they do with you. Yeah. I've always been curious of your journey of probably just from like, let's start with just like after you graduated and practicing. And I know that you did ART for a while and all of that stuff.

And I was curious, just like, what made you transition? Was it somebody who influenced you? Was it clinically what you were seeing? I'm curious. Yeah. Um, there was, there was a couple points where I know I do remember about like, what, seven, I was probably about six, six, seven years ago or something. Like I was still, we're still like a soft tissue, heavy practice, you know? Um, but you know, we did have a weight room outside and I was dabbling with more compound movements, you know, dead lifting, squatting to be, you know, um, a helpful part. But there was still like, there was that, you know, like they, they talk about bridging the gap.

I hate that term honestly, but you know, between passive care and active and the, like the, like the compound movements and adding some load, there were still inadequate support, I think. So we needed what I would call now the correctives. Right. Um, and I think I needed to patch in the first aid, which I didn't know all the first aid and I probably still don't know all the first aids either. Um, was that like a thought process of your own or did you hear that somewhere? And then you were like, that sounds like a good idea. Like something I need to adopt. Or were you like, there's something missing here and I need to figure this out in the middle.

Yeah. I'll get to that in a minute. Okay. Um, but, but that was the first kind of thought. Um, originally when I was, I was practicing, uh, we were very, uh, ART heavy. And that was mainly because, um, when I was, when I got hurt playing baseball in high school, uh, I went to, you know, a PT and, um, another round of PT and I didn't, um, felt better, but it was just very traditional stuff. It was, you know, I came back and played and swing a bat first pitch, first game back and just gone again. And, uh, I went to a guy who did ART, which, um, Ron Higuera in orange, he did a really good job. We did a lot of strength training and we did, and we did, he did ART and some adjusting.

And so, um, he had me back quickly. Like I want to see like two weeks, maybe, maybe, maybe even less. Um, anyways, though, like over in the, in the beginning, I used to always attribute it to the ART and, um, but I forget how hard they would, they would lift me. I would go back at his little stick shift BMW. I couldn't fricking push the clutch in without my leg twitching. It was like, so, I mean, we probably spent 10 minutes doing soft tissue and some adjusting and then we spent 40, 40, 45 minutes loading. And so at some point I kind of came to the point where I was like, Hmm, I have the opportunity to load now because I have a bigger office.

And that's why I went with that. The, the middle ground was, um, uh, when I met Cody DMACC and so we went on and visited office and cause, uh, Marianne was, uh, his wife was certified in ART. So we're like, Oh, cool. People like us will go over there. And so we just kind of met him and stuff. And then, um, after me and Cody hit it off, we started bullshitting around and it just kind of through conversation. It's like, huh? Like he did one with me the other day too. I still got to ask him about it because we're getting rid of the squat rack. And, uh, he's like, why would you get rid of it? I'm like, we still use that much.

He's like, you never just put like three 50 on the bar and just make them step back and hold it. I'm like, no, but do I need to, you know, and, and how often do I need to do it? And so it kind of makes you think anyways. And so, um, the, the middle ground was like, like we would talk about, you know, like your McKenzie's or end range loading. We talk about DNS, uh, intra-dawn pressure, um, and, and just basically the coaching queuing, you know, and getting what you need to out of the exercise before getting into that loaded pattern. Uh, I remember I brought up a paper I wrote up one time and I was like, okay, is it fair to ask every man to be able to do three pull-ups and every woman to hang from bar for 60 seconds?

It's basically like standardized parameters of here's a goal for like, in, in, like there's, I know in, in strength training, they kind of have that stuff. Um, McGill has his like, um, um, test for like side planking it and so on. And so there's, there's like standardization store and store and extension test. So I was trying to create a standardization and I realized that I can't do that, you know? And so, um, when I started, um, when he, he dropped a couple ideas in there, this is what I go through on the workshops that I've done is it's like, I kind of tell the history of that, but I remember one day I was so drunk and, uh, he's like, yeah, he's like, ah, he's, he's sober probably because he's so fricking big.

And, uh, he was like, yeah, it is IEP. I'm like, what's that? And he's like, you don't know IEP is. I'm like, Nope. And so the next day, kind of like you, I wrote a little thing. I was like, I'm gonna look this up. And so it just progressed down the route. I learned most of it with, I went to like one DNS seminar, um, just shadowing and just learning from other people who kind of have the same kind of, you know, thing. And I'm not saying DNS is the thing, but, uh, there's little, there's little ways to patch it in. And so I was just fortunate enough to have a good background with resistance training and I can always ask Cody questions.

And I met a bunch of other people who do the same kind of thing. And, uh, I can just integrate, I think I could just integrate things well. So it didn't take a lot of poking for me to go that direction. It was just something that was needed for people. So did you notice like, uh, like clinically too, was it like, I'm bored with just doing this ART stuff. So I've kind of, I'm looking for something new to introduce. Let me bring that up. Actually, it was nice to take people from, so when we were just doing just the compound movements and ART, it was really nice to put on a different hat. It was like, great.

I can come, it's just, it's like a totally different job, but you're still doing the same thing. Um, but, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't intentionful. It was just, oh, cool. That's just like a side effect with it. So, um, I'm sure there's other things that we're going to have to patch in. Um, but I think that the first, the first time I realized that McKinsey extension worked with a low back, it just blew my fucking mind. It was like, holy shit, I would have done tissue work forever on that person. And, and I had a really bad, um, outcome with low back, low back disc types of presentations. So, um, when, when you start realizing that everything you did was probably, um, incorrect on some of those people, it makes, it makes you start wondering what else there is.

And that was kind of unraveling. Gosh, I remember that. I remember my first time in here, you doing McKenzie's. And I think at first it was, I was like a little judgy about it because I remember being in school and like, we don't really learn much about it. You learn like the crisp protocol, but we don't learn how to really use like end range loading very well. Um, and I think it was cause the, it was the first time they were trying to introduce it into our program, really like a specific class for it. So it was kind of all over the place. Um, and there's, they might be doing better at it now, but, um, it was never something that I ever really tried to do.

And I always gave chin tucks as more of a deep neck flexor strengthener type of idea by it. And I always wonder now, like, huh, any of those neck cases, was it because I gave them chin tucks to go home with and they actually did it that they responded really well? I'm always curious about that. But being in here and seeing that, I was just like, what? That works that well? Are you serious? I got to try this. And then I started adapting it towards the end of the program. And I was like blown away at some of the results people were getting just right then and there. And that's the cool thing too, is we didn't have very much time with patients going through school.

It was like certain clinics we were in, we had 15 to sometimes 30 minutes. So it was like, all right, well, how am I going to get better at like my time management here? Oh, let's end range load you. Oh, you feel this much better. Great. Do that. Yeah. It was really cool. Yeah. Oh, I'm glad you guys get the experience to play with it. Cause I didn't, I've, I've only been, I'll be honest with you there. I'd never been to a McKenzie seminar. So I guess we'd call it end range load, but you know, through, through shadowing people and, and, you know, just learning, learning, uh, reading the books. I've read the books too.

Um, it's, uh, it's, it's, it took a little bit of time to, to trust the process too. But like, um, not to say that McKenzie's are the end all be all, but even just like positions of comfort, it's like, just, just let it, let the body settle down. I'm like, I don't even like Jared was here the other day and he's like, so what is this doing? I'm like, we were talking, it was an impingement case. And, uh, I'm like, well, uh, we are, uh, maybe we're affecting the anterior tilt. Maybe we're affecting the hip centration. Maybe we're just improving core stabilization. I don't, I don't freaking know, but it's working, right?

It makes them feel better. Who really cares? Like just go with what the person's showing you. And then, um, and I, I think, I think when, when word, when I was doing tissue work, it was kind of about the grind, you know, and, uh, you kind of, I think you kind of forget that, or I've forgotten that pain is the person's asset that you can only tap into if you talk to them about it. And so they can lead you the right direction. Like people come in and say, it feels really good when I do this. Great. Do it more, you know? And, uh, all of a sudden they just get better on their own. So anyways, this isn't my interview.

It's your interview. We're just chatting. Okay. Um, well, good. So what, um, yeah, what else do we need to know? What else do we need to know? I don't know. I think it's so weird when I have to talk about myself, just give me a specific question. Well, shit, I can tell you all the things that Dawne Costantino sits really odd in chairs most of the time and half the times her bangs are super sweaty for no apparent reason. I cannot sit in a chair normally. I think maybe right now how I'm sitting is the most normal, just like that crossover leg thing, but I have to sit crisscross applesauce. I have one leg up thrown over.

It's, I don't know what it is. I can't go feet flat. And she has a certain spot in the office where she stands. It's like her typical standing desk. Like even, even the rolly desk in her office is set to standing. It's like, she's scared of sitting, sitting in the chair. Well, it's because I know that these weird positions I put myself in will cause pain. So then I'm like, well, if I just stand, then I get myself away from putting myself in those odd positions. But even standing, it's like, well, it causes pain too. So I keep moving around, see me in happy baby pose all the time all over the office.

Yeah. We pan around and they're like, why is everyone doing happy baby today? Yeah. And if you guys watch any of our videos on YouTube or anything like that, and you see my sweaty bangs, it's because Sebastian probably, we, we, we, we trade the roles of doing like doctor and patient and he'll make, or well, he'll be doctor first and I'll be patient. So he's taking me through exercises. And then when it's time for me to talk, I'm look like a sweaty doctor. Just I get the way that my bangs look in most of those videos. They dry right now. I've never seen it. It's like we're living in Colorado and they're just like, like no moisture in there.

Why do we choose to do audio instead of video? Yeah. If, um, yeah, I, I actually, I, I've already mentioned to you before, but I think everyone, if they want, if they want to learn more about, you know, Dawne Costantino's development, I don't even know if, um, I don't even know if your first videos on YouTube were bad. Like, um, I think when it comes down to like, like, so we've been kind of back and forth on, on trying to like, I've been, I've been planting seeds and marketing for, you know, and getting people to trust my judgment calls for 10, 12 years now. And, uh, you're new, you know? And so part of it comes down to how, like how you speak, how you present yourself.

Uh, and I think that's something you've done really well. And as you can see on the audio, I think everyone can tell like you're, you're doing pretty good. Thank you. So probably so far they trust you. That was goal number one. And now on the exercises on the videos, you can see the videos that you do on your own are really good. The ones you do with me, you could do, I think you could do better because I just take over. Yeah. I don't think you take over. I think I just take those, I'll take on those role of being a shadow. Cause I, you're still the person that I look to as like a mentor. So like, even when we're doing videos for the general public, what you're talking about, I'm still learning that, you know?

So then I kind of sit back and I'm like, listen, I'm like, Oh shoot, we're in a video together. Like this is for us to do together for the public. You know what I mean? But I think that'll, it'll change your time. I think it definitely gotten much better at it for sure. I feel way more comfortable on video. I was so mad at you the first time we're going to do a video. You just turn the camera on and put it in front of my face and said, talk about something. Wait, what were we doing? I don't even remember. I just remember you didn't even give me a subject. You didn't even let me like plan ahead.

I'm a planner. So you were like, just go. It's fine. Just talk about something. And I was like, Sebastian, you can't do that to me. Like, give me a little bit of time to like, and then even when I would do videos from there going forward, like, I'd be like, can you please give me a topic? And I'd like write down certain things I want to make sure I say in the video. I've noticed now too, is like, even if I try to do that, it doesn't come out as good. It's always, you know, if I just go by what's in my head, it just sounds better, flows better. You know what I mean? But it's just, it's getting over that like fear of having a camera pointing at you.

I'd never done that before. Yeah. The, uh, I think I, I think I told you there was a guy that used to, he used to work in the office. And so he was really well-spoken, like, like, like good guy. And like, he knew his shit and everything. You put a camera in front of him. Like I put a tripod up and he's like in the middle of the way room and he's like, you know, and he's just like stuttering around. And I was like, dude, it's been 10 minutes. I'm going to leave. You just play with the camera. I'm going to delete all this later anyways. So, um, it's hard. And if anyone has not tried to go on camera, do, do a camera, do one.

And you'll see how hard it is and how, how Dawne Costantino, uh, is good at it. And I'm, I probably, I think I, I, I, I'm watching mine and I say, um, too much now. And this year on the podcast, my goal was to not say, um, I'm pretty sure I said it a shit ton already, but I found that if you let me cuss, I won't say it. That's so true. Now that you bring that up, cause remember that was an issue with me too. I'd go back and listen to all of my stuff and be like, I say, um, way too much. And people are like, you don't even say it that much until you bring it up. And then we notice it. But now that you bring that up, I'm like, maybe that's why I do say it because I'm like, how do I replace this cuss word with something that's not so bad?

Yeah. You have to process like, what is a better word? But at the same time, like, I don't know, I feel like I've met people that like when they cuss, you're like, yeah, yeah. A well-placed F-bomb, it makes me trust them better, you know? So I think I was at that workshop you went to originally, like, I think I was cussing all over the place. I don't even remember. I don't, it doesn't, I'm not one of those people that I hear cussing and it bothers me. I don't even think like, oh, cuss word or this, they're cussing too. I think I'm just used to it. Yeah. I think it's like an exclamation point. I think it works.

I think that I would like to know, like, before I do certain recordings that it's okay to cuss because I feel like one of the things that we talk about is how like I'm young and like getting people to trust me because I'm young is one of those like barriers right now as a young doc. So then I replace my cuss words with poopy. That makes you sound even younger. You got to find it, you got to, you got to find some, like maybe some archaic terms. Like rad and bodacious. Yeah, that's true. Like when I say round into, I want to say shitty posture. I want to say round into a shitty posture, but like you have to be careful.

You might like rub people the wrong way by saying that. So I'm like, yes, so be posture. You don't ever take the, you don't, you don't ever like, I don't do it. I don't know consciously, but I noticed that I do it is, is based upon the person's now person, the personality in front of me, I'll, I'll change mannerisms and language. And so I like with, with the VA guys, dude, you just be so brash. Like it's so cool. And the cops too, like they're usually pretty chill. Yeah. I know. I feel like that with like girls my age, I feel like, like we can kind of just like talk similar and it just feels like it flows a lot more.

Whereas compared to like people are older than me and I don't want to make sure that I like come off as like a certain type of what, you know, and I'm not like changing who I am, but like you want to make sure that you're respecting the person that's in front of you and you're finding a way to connect with them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Now, really quick break from the show. I want to invite you guys to check out a series, a clinical series that I just put together. It is the five steps of patient care series. We start with the hip and we go all the way through referred symptoms. It's a step-by-step exam through loading type of workshop.

Each workshop's about two to three hours. There's videos. You will get access to it for quite a bit of time. In the hip one, I cover labral tears, FAIs, referred, referred symptoms. Gosh, as you guys can tell, I don't do some severe editing in the show, which is okay. I've gotten a lot of feedback that you guys like the conversational tone. We also cover rehab options. And I know that a lot of things that I've heard from interns and young clinicians that have come out of school, they said, we know a lot of, we know a lot of rehab. We know a lot of exercises. I know the dead bug, but how do I use it?

When do I use it? What patient do I use it on? Can I use it on a hip? How do I cue it to use it on a hip? Because with this hip case that I'm using it on, it's not working. It's making their hip clunk. Well, so we go over cueing in there. And we also cover loading based upon the pathology. It's not just your standard crap like, hey, here's how to teach a barbell squat. It's stuff that is based upon how clinicians can teach loading to get the person where they need to go. Because we know their case better than their strength coach does at this point in time. Yet later, their strength coach will be the one who will do a better job of coaching that for performance purposes because that's not our job.

So I want to invite you to go through the series one through six in order. Numbers five and six will absolutely blow your mind. Absolutely blow your mind. And the intention that I had was that we would stop treating inefficiently. Our patients don't want us to treat inefficiently. Sure, our pocketbooks do. Our businesses do. It'd be nice to get 30 visits out of every IT band that comes in because it just won't stick. But why don't we just get it to stick? And so in five and six, I present the idea of pseudosyndromes and different types of the hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee, foot, ankle, pseudosyndromes, the things they don't teach you in school.

So please go through there. Every intern that I have is required now to go through all of this video content before I will even work with them because it is that important. This is what I hope for you. I hope you interns or you young docs are better than I am. And I'm in my 12th year of practice. I want you to be better than I am because how are we going to improve this profession and improve the knowledge that we have if we don't learn from people who have already been there first? I learned from other people who have been there first too. So don't reinvent the wheel every time. And please take this in the light that it was intended.

You need to get this course. P2sportscare.com slash products or products or get the product tab and go down and get number one of six. Now back into the show. I was going to ask you a question. I forget what the hell it was. Damn it. We've got a side tangent topic. What do you think? This was not the question. I'm sure I'll bring you on back. What do you think you need to get better at? It's been, it's been almost a year since you've been out of school, right? Holy crap. Sarah will tell you, no, eight months. Yeah, that's true. It is almost a year. That's true. What do I need to get better at?

Well, there's a lot. Let me think. First thing I want to think about. I think I want to get better. I think I want to get better at finding ways because I was talking about this with Mike yesterday. Actually, when I was in school and I was doing TLC on patients, I was, it allowed me the time because you got really used to, okay, yeah, I'm going to work this upper trap. So like, it's just comes a second nature. You're just doing it. You don't have to think about how to do it. So then I was able to have a conversation with a patient during that time while doing soft tissue because it came so easy and I had been doing it for so long.

Now that I'm doing more active care and coaching them through things, there's that lack of being able to get to know them on a personal level because I don't, I'm, I think it's still because it's new and I need to think about, okay, well, if they're not responding to this cue, what's the next cue I'm going to try? Like certain things like that. So I'm always in my own head about how to like, just get what I need out of the patient. But there's like, what's important to me. One of the first questions is like, why did I become a chiropractor is because I think it's important to get to know your patient.

So like, I think I want to get better at trying to find a way to still do that in my appointments with my patients. Yeah. It is a little bit more challenging with, uh, if you're just doing, if you're just doing passive, you can just chat, you know, but if you're, but if you're, if you're coaching, like that takes a lot of coaching and Q and it takes a lot of attention, you know, and you're trying to express some type of thing out of the patient. And, uh, yeah, I struggle with that too a little bit because it's, it's like, you have to be on like a lot, you know, you can't just like, you know, kick back or anything.

It's not, they're, they're a moving target. It's in tissue work. It's not necessarily a moving target. You, you got, you got your pin, right? Um, so I, I, yeah, I can't help with that. No, that's okay. No. And I think, well, but you bring up a good point the other day too, is like, say they're doing an exercise. You don't want to be like, so how's your day? Like you need them to focus on what they're doing. Cause that's the importance of why they're here. They need to do this and we need to see how they respond to it. So I think I'm, I think where I want to figure out how to do it is like, if I have a low back case and I'm taking them through their like exams and stuff like that, it's, it's easy nature at this point.

So I can like, oh yeah, I'm doing like my tomes and like dermatomes and all that stuff, I can say certain things to them in those moments during the exam. That'll be like, no, so tell me about, I don't know, are you married or like that kind of thing. Right. Um, but if it's like a specific joint that we don't see a lot, like say it's a shoulder joint, I'm like, okay, well I need to focus on this shoulder joint because you know, I'm not, I don't see that as much as I see low back. So, um, that's kind of where I'm trying to figure out how to poke it in. But also I'm trying to find a way to like, do just a little bit of TLC for patients.

And I think it's more because like, maybe it's not because I believe that that TLC will work for them. I do think there is cases where it will, but I think it's just allow that little bit of time in the appointment to do the TLC because you can create that connection. I think that's the most important thing and why I'm doing it right now is like, ah, it's a little bit of soft tissue here so I can get to know you as a person. You know, I think it's a good idea. That might deter some people away there and be like, I don't care about you. Just give me better. Do the things you need to do to get me better.

I think everybody has, isn't that a part of Maslow's like probably hierarchy is like, you know, someone wants to be like some connection. So, um, but yeah, I, I actually, when you said that, that is probably, that's probably where I tend to do the interaction a little more too is, is, um, usually I'll start talking a little bit more about like, I'll ask them questions during reflexes because there's, they're not, you kind of want to distract them anyways. Uh, and then, uh, usually in, in tests that aren't super like, uh, exponentially provocative, like I wouldn't do it during a upper limb or lower than tension test because I want them to pay attention and stop me.

But generally if you like, like passive ranges of motion things, it's like, you can talk to them a little bit, but they're like, they got to be like specific questions where it's not like, tell me about your entire schooling career. Exactly. Yes. It's like, you get a little bit of a response. You get to know them a little bit better. Yeah. I feel that I do it during like the end range loading part of it to the low back part. We'll just talk to them during that moment. Cause sometimes if you just talk to them while doing something, they're a little bit fearful of, you get them a little bit further.

Cause they're not focusing as much too. Yeah. It's something I noticed you do with like some of the opener protocols too, because you're just literally doing nothing. Yeah. You're literally sitting there and just waiting for a minute to pass. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So, so you want to get better at that. What conditions do you think you need to get better at? Like, uh, like patients, what they're coming in with. Yeah. What is one, like, what is one symptom symptom presentation? You're like, uh, I think I need to get better at that. What are you good at? Upper. Honestly, though, I feel like I'm really good at neck and, um, that like upper trap shoulder blade, that just like simple stuff.

Well, it's not simple, but you know, I just, I feel like I'm really good at that. Um, I feel like I'm really good at just like general low back pain. Um, I think anything, I think front of the hip I could get better at because I have this idea that like front of the hip is caused by this. So let's try this. And when they don't respond that way, I'm like, why didn't that respond that way? You know? So I think my thought process could be better about the front of the hip. It's them, not you. No, no, it's definitely, I still have that thought process. It gets me. I need to pick something better here.

Um, and just like ridiculous cases. I mean, some respond really, really well. And then there's others that don't. And so it's like, okay, well, I think I need to get out of the mindset of like following this like path that usually works. You have a bunch of people that'll come in for a while that they're just like, yep, they respond really well to this, followed up by this, this, and this when it's this case. Right. And you have somebody who walks through the door and it's like, butt pain. I had a girl came in the other day and she's like, I had butt pain right here. And she just pointed right at it.

Right. And I was like, ah, this is going to be easy. And it was not easy. So I think that they're like getting out of that like mindset of, uh, when it walks through the door, it's going to respond to this. I need to get out of that mindset because I need to be able to think better and think on my feet too, you know? So then, uh, since I'm just recalling back that we had just done, we had just done a shoulder podcast about an hour ago and you said shoulders are complicated for, for, for some clinicians or you're probably referencing students when they come out of school. When did you become so good?

I'm not, I wouldn't say that I'm good. I think I'm better than I have ever been when it comes to shoulders. Um, it's so, and I was just saying this yesterday, it's so funny how once you decide, like, I want to get better at shoulders, I hope more shoulders walk through the door so I can like work on more shoulders. It starts happening. It's so freaking weird how you can do that. Well, honestly, I didn't like do anything that just happens that way. But, um, I think I'm less fearful of them. I think, uh, I'm less fearful of just like, oh my gosh, there's, there's potentially this going on. What do I do?

It's like frigging shoulders just like respond really well to just loading them. And so every time I put a weight in somebody's hand or we do a shoulder hinge and they're just like, that feels really good. I'm like, all right, I guess I just need to do this more. I need to not be so careful when it comes to shoulders. I feel like I had this idea that shoulders were vulnerable and I need to be really careful. And now I'm just like, no, I just, as long as they feel okay, let's just do it. And everybody so far has responded really well. Good. Yeah. So I wouldn't say I'm a shoulder expert. Well, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll back you up a little bit.

You're pretty good at upper, upper and shoulder because you've had a good personal experience with the ridiculous arm, uh, and everything. And, uh, so I, I think that when I know that you had mentioned that you wanted to have a little bit of everything for a little bit of time so you can experience it. Um, but I think when you do have like a good experience with a good experience, when you have an experience with it, uh, personally, I think you become better at it. You know, you can, I think, visualize things a little bit better, what mechanics you're trying to change and understand what the person is dealing with.

So you can empathize with them a little bit more. Absolutely. Um, there was a, let me tell you a little bit about that. I had a girl who I was dealing with, um, a ridiculous case down her arm, from her neck, down her arm into her fingers. Um, and she kept complaining about like this pain where she just like, I just feel like I want to pop my shoulder and she keeps going like this. And I'm like, I don't get that. Right. And I've had ridiculous cases. I've never really felt that before. So I'm like, what is it about her shoulder? And then there was a, I think it was like maybe a few visits in with her a few weeks later, I did something that aggravated my ridiculous case.

And I was like, Oh my God, I feel like I just want to pop my shoulder. There's like, just this like odd, weird feeling right here. And I'm like, well, I know that I already know what that is as a person, just knowing that I have a ridiculous case on the side, that's what's causing it. But then I would like, I remember telling her the next time I saw her, I was like, I get it now. I know that feeling. Don't feel like you need to pop it because you can't. And this is what we're going to do for it. So absolutely. I think it's super cool when you can experience some of the things that your patients are going through.

Yeah. Well, so I think this is, I should have prompted you on this earlier, but I didn't. So sometimes when I interview people, I'll ask them, is there a good story that everyone likes to hear you tell? Every time you tell it, they're like, God, it's got a good story. You usually ask them for like, what is a verbal cue that I can give you? Like, ah, avocados. And like, ha, I got a story about avocados. Oh man. So is there a story that people usually like, like, that like, like when Dawne Costantino tells it? You should have prompted me on this. It's so funny how like your mind can seriously just go blank with certain questions.

I stare at a white wall and think, okay, what's the first thing that pops into my head? I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Sorry. Yeah. That's okay. Maybe it'll come to me if we talk a little bit more. Yeah, maybe it will. I only, I only have one. I've been told it a long time, but it usually goes over pretty well. It was an original joke. And, um, so one time I was in Vegas and so I usually dress how I do, as you see. And, um, I, I was like, oh, I'm just going to go to a nightclub. I was there by myself and I'm like, I don't know what else to do. And so I'm going to go to a nightclub and so I went over to the bouncer like during the daytime and, uh, I said, Hey, uh, so I think I had, I think I had jeans on maybe or something like that.

And so I had a V-neck shirt on and I said, Hey, look, can I, can I get in this club tonight dressed like this? I'm just a little concerned that, you know, I won't make it in because you have dress code and things. He's like, no, no, no, you won't get in. And I said, why not? And he said, uh, cause your shirt, it's not a collared shirt. And I said, okay, so if I buy a collared shirt, well, can I get in? He said, no, no, no, your shoes. I said, what's wrong with your shoes? He's like, they got laces. And I said, if I take the laces out, can I get in? He's like, no. And, uh, and I said, that's lacism.

Did you really say that? Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's great. Did he laugh? No, he didn't like it. Oh, damn it. I love that. Yeah. I followed up with what if I take a different shirt, rip it in half and drape it over this V-neck shirt. Would that work as well? He probably just wanted to punch you in the face. There was no one else there. I just don't get it because like, um, I, I, I know people like who, first of all, first off, when you're in a nightclub, who looks down that, who can actually see down to see your, your laces. Um, plus, um, I'm pretty sure you look around, you get in there next time.

If anyone goes to a nightclub tonight, go ahead and look around there. There's a lot of people who do have laces in their shoes because you want dress shoes have laces, sir. Yeah. What the heck? Yeah. So, and I'm sure the people with converse and slip ons and crocs, what if you would have worn like checkered bands? Yeah. I'm sure it'd be cool because Travis Barker does it, you know? So I'm pretty sure the guy was just laces. So I love that story. I don't have a good one like that. I'm sorry. Not off the top of my head. Once we're done with this, I'm going to be like, Oh, I have a good story. Okay.

Uh, so as we come to closing the podcast, is there anything that people need to know about you that we did not talk about yet? And you like hiking all of a sudden you like to be outdoors, not in your, in the, in the house. Did you say all of a sudden? Uh, well, uh, Ali had told me that you're, you're, you're attempting to go on more hikes. I am. So I've always been very outdoorsy. Um, I'm the kind of person who like, I have certain things that excite me and I'm like really hyper-focused on those things for a little while and then I get bored and then I find something different. So like, I think one of my last things that I hyper-focused on was trying to learn how to write poetry.

Okay. Are they haikus or are they actually like poems? It was just poems because I ultimately what I wanted to do was I wanted to write a song. I was getting, I was like really influenced by people around me who were very into music. So I was like, I'm going to write a song. And then my little brother was learning how to make music. So I was like, cool. Like I'll write some lyrics for him, but I've never done this before. Did you beatbox it? No, but I was like, no, but I do beatbox. We have done that on one of our videos. Um, but yeah, so I get like hyper-focused on certain things that I want to just like kind of dive into and see if it's something that I could like incorporate in my life for a while.

I don't think that there really has been anything besides like journaling and meditating has always been something where I like, I hyper-focused on that. And that was actually something I then adapted into my life. But there's always like little things where I'm like, is there anything else that I can like make it as a fun hobby? I like paint sometimes and things like that. But right now I'm hyper-focusing on, um, finishing that six peak challenge. Oh, yeah, that's right. The six highest peaks in California is what I'm on. How many did you do? I've just done one. So I did Cucamonga Peak a few weeks back.

Um, and at the end of this month, I'll do San Jacinto. And so, yeah, I'm trying to do it by the end of the year, but we'll see. What's the, uh, I'm sure Gorgonio is one. Gorgonio, uh, Baldi, Cucamonga, Bernardino. How many did I say? Jacinto, Baldi, Cucamonga, San Bernardino. Gorgonio. And Gorgonio. Oh. There's one more. I can't even remember the last one. Oh, okay. I think it's, uh, well, shit. Shows how much I care, right? Yeah. I just, like, look at the list and I'm like, okay, what's the next one? There, uh, we're going to actually, we're going to try to do Gorgonio, I think, in a couple, like, a month or so here.

Just when it's cooling down, I think. Yeah. Is it open yet? Because I know that the fires. That's what I need to inspect. Yeah. Actually, I was, I was, I need to talk to Mary Lou about this, but, like, back in the day, you used to be able to just, like, show up at the ranger station, I want to wilderness pass, I'm going to go. And now it's like, I remember last time I was, I was attempting, last year I was attempting to go on a hike and I went on the ranger station, uh, or the, the national park service website. I could, it was just redirect loops all over the place. I'm like, this sucks, you know, like, uh, and so I, I am just going to take the gamble and I'm just going to show up there and say, look, I'm just going to go hike.

Just give me a wilderness pass just for one night. If it's just like a day thing, if you're trying to spend the night, then there's that whole, like, you know, you're going to get a camping trip and whatnot, but I don't know, we can talk about this after the podcast. I want to do, do the, do the, you know, people like this shit. Okay. Well, yeah. And especially right now, it's really hard too, right now with the COVID stuff. So, um, the ranger stations aren't open. So yeah, there's a, you have to get like a camping permit and you have to mail that in like way before you're going to do it. Oh really?

Yeah. That's something you have to consider. So yeah, that's what I did. And then there's hiking permit and parking permit. Really? Yeah. There is now. Okay. So back in the day, you used to be able to just show up at the, you can sleep at the trailhead and just get up and walk. This sucks. I don't know why, like reserve California. I know they meant well, but reserve California, you can't even not camp anywhere. You can't even get a campsite at the beach six months from the date that you like, you have to plan six months in advance. You know, it's funny how I was like the internet is supposed to make your life easier.

It's seriously just making my life harder nowadays. I can never find the answers that I want to find. It always redirects me in a bunch of different places. I'm just the kind of person now. I feel like I'm getting older when I say this, but it's like, I'm just gonna pick up the phone and frigging talk to somebody so they can give me an answer that I'm looking for. So yes, I, I feel that with this whole hiking thing right now, it's been really hard to figure out like, what exactly do I need? So I make sure that I'm not going to get in trouble for being on this mountain without all the stuff that I need.

But you know, worst case scenario to show it, like what's the penalty for getting on there and just a ranger can find a horse? You know what? They're usually on a horse. I've never seen a ranger on a horse, to be honest. Oh yeah. If you ever hear a horse and you're out there like illegally, just start hiding behind trees. Like break your, break your shit down and just hide. I, my mom told me that if you just go without it, they'll give you a ticket, but then once you pay for the ticket, they'll give you the permit that you need. So like an adventure pass, which is one of those like parking permit kind of things.

If you don't have one and they give you a ticket, you pay for that ticket and they'll give you, end up giving you an adventure pass, which will then be good for a certain amount of time. So I don't know. Don't quote me on that. I'm going to like, start looking on people's blogs. I'm sure. Let's see. I'll just ask the ranger. I'll say off the record. So what happens here? Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. Cool. Um, I was, I didn't, I didn't mean to ask you, you said you were an artist one time. I said that. Yeah. Cause you, the painting on the wall, I was laughing at the painting. They're like, I don't know why I'm an artist.

I would never say that. Yeah. I like to paint. Oh yeah. I don't ever call myself an artist. You said I'm an artist. I'm like, shit. You said, I'm, I, you, you said I'm a water paint artist and now you're claiming to be a music artist. Okay. Oh my gosh. And then now you're up now. Now you're a poet. That's what I mean though. I like to try a bunch of different things. I get really bored and I love to try new things. I don't call myself an artist. I like to paint. I'm pretty good at painting. I'm not good at like a blank canvas in front of me and like come up with some really cool shit. But like if you put another picture in front of me or I'm inspired by like a landscape in front of me, I can do it pretty well.

To be honest, I'll show you some of my stuff. Okay. It's pretty good. All right. I want to show you my poetry. It's not that good. I can't wait. Yeah. Okay. So we'll, we'll take the opportunity to close at that then. Uh, and if everyone's trying to get ahold of Dawne Costantino at all, just to harass her about her sweaty bangs or her poetry, then, uh, what is your, uh, what is it? Is it you, the crack of Dawne Costantino in, in, what is your Instagram handle? Instagram is Dawne Costantino underscore DC. Okay. Simple. Dawne Costantino with an E at the end. And you can probably Donnie, Donnie, the W. Yes. D-A-W-D-A-W-N-E dot DC. Uh, yeah.

And if anyone wants to, um, be seen by Dawne Costantino, you can always go to the PT sports care site. She works in the same building with me and, uh, we do this back and forth bullshit all the day. So it's, it's a fun environment to be in. Uh, thanks everyone for listening to the podcast. Uh, again, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. I don't pay any money to promote this podcast, nor do I make any money off of it. So, uh, the best compliment you can give and think, wow, that was really cool listening to this back and forth dancer on Sunday when I'm doing dishes. Someone's probably going to be doing that.

Uh, and, uh, anyways, the best comment you give is just share with a friend. Um, the only way this podcast keeps going is if I see the numbers keeping steady or growing up, if they start to plummet, I'll just drop the mic and just stop. And so if you'd like it, support the show. Cool. You want to close us out, Dawne Costantino? Thanks for supporting the movement movement. Thanks for being part of the movement movement. Oh, I almost had it. See you next time. Bye guys. Ow.