How better questions help people stick with rehab

I think you just need to offer more. People do their best, right? That's my belief. That's my absolute belief. People do their best. So if they're not doing what's expected of them, take for granted they need more option, more support, or more understanding of what's going on. But I think taking for granted that people want to do the good thing is a requirement to not get burnt out. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales.

Hey everyone, it's Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host for the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. If this is your first time, welcome to the show. It's about a 45-minute, hour-long format where we try to improve our communication styles with our patients, as well as patients understand what the hell we're talking about. So, the end result being everybody gets better patient outcomes. Everybody feels better quicker. As you can hear today, we have an interview going on. This is Alec. He was part of episode number 165 and 166. This is going to be the third part of that, and we've had an ongoing series of emails where he's helping me improve the way I'm communicating with patients.

So I thought it would help you guys as well. It's going to be a good conversation, so just tune in. English is a second language. He wanted me to let everyone know that because he is a smart guy. And if you can see by all of his emails, he's got a lot of good information and good analogies. Very witty. Now, as always, this communication style is going to be like we're all just hanging out at a brewery, just having a beer. We went to Beachwood Brewery in Huntington this time over on Windward, and I decided to get a Pablo Escobier. You decided to get a – there's a milk udder. It's like a milk stout, I think.

And the last person, which is not a doctor who was a – he works at a zoo. He decided to get a flight. So everyone's having a good conversation, and we're just understanding what everyone's talking about. So that's the goal of the podcast, so making sure that no one feels like they're left out in this. So as of your podcast, I start off with a little short story about myself so you guys can get to know me as a person. So hopefully you follow the podcast a little bit further on. So we'll get into that short story first, and then we'll get into the interview with Alec. So one thing I'm sure that all of you had this experience, too.

You go on a road trip, and you decide that, hey, can you stop? I need to go to the restroom. So you go to the restroom. What is the deal with people tagging and, like, etching their name on a toilet seat? What the hell? Like, I figure – like, I understand, like, the whole point of tagging. Like, this is my property. I think that's the whole purpose of it. But if that's your property, why do you want to be – like, this is my property, like, a toilet seat? Like, I can understand, you know, like, doing it on the side of a building maybe because that's, like, the border of your territory. But what is the point of doing it on the toilet seat?

I'm pretty sure that everybody in the world, most people in the world, especially now, probably want to cover up the toilet seat. They put layers and layers of toilet paper. Like, even if it clogs the toilet, they still put layers and layers of toilet paper on the toilet seat so you don't have to sit on it. But you guys decide to take all of it off, and you know what? I'm going to put my car keys or my knife right in there, and maybe later on, maybe I'll slice into an apple or something, right? I don't get you guys, but can I get an amen on that? Let's get into the show. Okay, well, before we start in, I'm going to read part of the email that Alex sent me just so you guys have a framework of what we're talking about.

So this is just part of the email. So, okay, so he said he was mentioning things like we were talking about mirroring as well as the other types of stuff that we did last time was mirroring. And what was the other one? I forget what the name is. I think I should really remember. Anyways, you should listen to this podcast, too. Anyways, he said, now he's talking about open-handed or open-ended communication style. So, Alex, I get it. Open-handed questions are awesome. How can I implement this in my practice? Hmm, that's a great question. I think you're really getting the hang of it. In the context of examination and treatment as a chiro, this is a tool which will be particularly helpful to make your data collection richer.

It's especially true for what about the psychosocial aspect of how patients think of their treatment. Let me use an example. You see a client for the first time. His name is Ray. Ray's coming to you because he complains of knee pain. Ray has been able to, has been active in ways for the last 10 years, but he has stopped, but after, after he stopped sport in college, he's been active for about 10 years after he stopped sport in college. He hasn't been too active. He's been a desk job worker. He has left knee pain in a diffuse way, and it gets more acute when climbing stairs. He's been having pain for the last four years, during which his condition slowly has been getting worse gradually.

So, he decides that enough is enough when he began to have pain when coming off the toilet, getting out of bed, getting out of the chair, and when he sits down to tie his shoes, since he has to lunge to do it, and that also became painful too. Anyways, he books an appointment through the website. It's funny, like, so this is me talking. It's funny how Alex is very good. He already knows the patient flow. He's not even in this industry, so it's interesting to see how he knows that flow. So, to you, it's more or less routine. First aid, if necessary, modify scab picking activities, allow him to heal, give more home exercises, specifically rehab stuff, and progressively get him out into lifting, maybe refer him to a trainer.

Anyways, you've already got this whole game plan in mind. On the clinical side of things, at least, now you have to figure out what Ray understands his—now we have to figure out Ray's situation. What motivates him to come into your office? What does he expect out of treatment? What does he see as his role in his recovery? So, some of the questions we might ask him are, what is your personal history with exercise? If he tells you that he's used to doing it in college, and you can go down the rabbit hole and ask him, you know, what does he see—what does he get out of doing sports? What is—what did he get back in the day?

Anything we can learn about his relationship with sports is valuable, and anything that he says can—especially in regards to what he loves to do—is a leverage point later just to support a behavioral change when we suggest it. So, have you ever seen a healthcare practitioner for this, or for any other problem? How did it go? What made—what—what made you decide to consult back then, and what made you decide now? What has been helpful during that time, and is there—is there anything you like or don't like, and et cetera? What are your expectations of treatment going forward? How would you know if you're progressing?

How would you know if you're getting better? And moving forward, what do you feel like your role in the healing process is? How do you see my role in the healing process? What can I expect of you as a patient, and what can you expect of me as your doctor? So, these are some of the things that Alec wrote. This is just a part of a gigantic email, but I'm sure he's going to cover more of it today. But I thought he'd give you a pretense of the things that I have read, so you can understand kind of the framework of what we're talking about with that open-ended question. Here we get into the interview.

All right. You hear me? There he is. What's up? Wonderful. Doing good. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. What's new? A couple of things. I moved out. New place. Somehow. That shelf is still there, though. That big-ass six-foot shelf. Yeah. Of course, it followed me. I told you it was sturdy. You moved out? New place? Yeah. You might actually hear my roommates. Maybe not. I don't know. Yeah. Moved out. What else? That's the biggest one, I guess. That's a big one. I had a raise recently. That was cool, too. That's it. What's new with you? New adventure, trying to adapt to people afraid to coming in. Oh, you guys are still open.

Well, I mean, we're considered a central business, so we actually closed. We could open, but it's almost like there's enough people that are just to... I mean, I could do virtuals. It's not a big deal. I want to still do my part, but at the same time, it's like, at some point, you're going to go out of business if you don't open, you know? Yeah. It's been interesting. Nice. It's had a nice effect on my job, too. Basically, what happened is that I'm now dealing with a smaller group. There's no new people coming in, and people can't go out, so they're kind of forced to have a significant relation with us.

So, I'm basically spending my days trying to figure stuff out with people I'm supposed to help, but that's my shift all day long. I'm cooking and talking. That's cool. You got a headset and all that shit to hands-free. You put it under your shirt to make sure that you don't drop it in your food, right? Sorry, what? I always put the thing under my shirt when I'm talking and cooking. That way, you don't burn it, and you don't get it in your food. That's good advice, thanks. Yeah. Try it one day. It'd be great. I'll do. So, I read your email. Yeah. It was a doozy. And I thought to have you on here then again that we did mirroring and rewarding last time.

Mm-hmm. Last two times. And you want to hit the open-ended question. The open... You called it an open-worded question? A what? An open-ended question? Open-ended. Open-ended question. Okay. Got it. Yeah. The idea is that as opposed as a, let's say, a closed question. Once again, I'm still not sure if I get my translation right. But a closed question would be one where there's a predetermined, limited possible answers. And where it's usually, it's very factual driven. It's like, has this event happened? Have you done this? Do you know where my glasses are? Stuff like that. It tends to bring out...

It tends to be very low-level information in regard to... As opposed to an open-ended question where it would be more about... You're reaching for depth in the answer you want to have from the person. So, as it applies to, let's say, your job, it's way more interesting to at least always do a first round with an open-ended question. Just because you're going fishing for more stuff, you just might get more out of your answer. Mm-hmm. So, that was what the email was about. Okay. Yeah, actually, for... As I did a pre... I read through part of the email for everybody before we jumped on, just to make sure they knew what we were kind of talking about.

That's right. You know, actually, this is probably a side question, but I was thinking of it when you were talking about a good way to start the conversation is an open-ended question. Is there certain types of open-ended questions that social norms will negate them as being useful? Like, how's it going? Good. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a perfect example. Absolutely. So, you have to say that, just so you have to, like, do it, like, come up with a unique one, or just let that one happen, and then start digging deeper? Oh, I think that could work, yeah. Just, you ask the person how he or she's doing, and obviously, they're going to say they're fine, or because you're a chiro, they're going to say their back hurts or something.

But aside from that, fine, but, yeah, I guess you go with it. But there's kind of way, if you just slightly change the wording, it kind of hit that part of, I don't know why, but people realize that you're, like, it's not an, it's not a norm thing. You're actually asking in what state they're in, right? But you just need to change it just a little bit, and you're good. Yeah, that makes sense. Like, how are you? How are you? Yeah. Or, you know, I know the grocery store checkers tend to do that. Did you find everything okay? Actually, that's closed-ended question, but how's your day? Yeah, usually, they're hoping, is there anything else we could do for you?

But see, we could actually teach a good lesson to a lot of grocery stores, because that's a closed-ended question, actually. Yeah. Did you find everything? Yes, I did. Can I get you anything else? No. That went easily. Yeah, yeah. So, you could open with, let's say, let's say you're at the grocery, I'm at the cashier, and you're, I want to make you, I want to trick you into needing something else. I would ask you, how can I help you find everything you need? Like, that would be, that would be better, because it implies that you still have stuff to get. So, how can I, what was your word on that?

How can I help you find something else? Yeah. Or find what you need. That would be probably even better. So, it takes more work on my part to say, I don't need anything, versus saying, oh, do you know where this is? Yeah, exactly. I framed you as needing something. So, you, if you don't have the reflex of correcting me, as you actually don't need anything, thank you, I will be done, that's it. I will not take the receipt. If you're not that prepared, you'll be like, no, I think I have everything. I got grapes, I got cheese, I got my beer. No, I'm good, actually, it's okay. No, that's good to know.

Yeah, because actually, since we've been doing more virtuals now, virtual interaction with people, I've noticed that with social media in particular, it's kind of challenging. I think it's more challenging, because there's less, they don't, maybe they don't have as much buy-in to actually come into the conversation, versus like, they vote on something, or they say, oh, this hurts. And you're like, oh, so we try, we try an open-ended question, like, you know, what have you done to make this feel better? You know, things like that. And then they just ghost on you. It's like, hmm, what are, why are you, why are you guys saying anything at all if you don't want to converse, you know?

I don't know. It's just, it's just, it was just an observation that I'd say more than half the people are like that. I don't know why. Do they like, maybe they just like to talk about it? But in that case, they would talk about it. Yeah, I think we actually did talk a little bit of it last time we talked, but I think one part of it is that the expectation, the way people expect a medical professional to behave is to be the expert. Like, before you step in the room, they think of you as the one having the answers, right? So I think that that's probably like a speed bump in which you get, but also the main driver of communication is always nonverbal cues.

Like, no matter how fine-tuned you are with the way you use language, like what your body says, the way you speak, the way your face moves, the way you use your hands, it's all, it's kind of taken out of the equation by the, just the fact that you're in front of a screen and not someone, right? I guess that might require, effectively, like it probably has another layer of challenge, as you said. I wonder if you did just a video of that, like you videoed yourself saying it. How are you today? But also, it might just be that it's a pretty trivial day, right? Right, yeah. You might be reaching for some things not there also sometimes.

At some point, I was, while I was studying, I had that exact reflection you had where I was like, God damn it, I keep asking people what they've done today and they've never done much. And at some point, I just like listened to myself, I was like, yeah, that's probably it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right. I've started a couple times talking to people, I'm like, you know, what are you passionate about? And I think the most of them think it's a ridiculous question, but it's like, it's a different one than how are you today? You know, tell me what makes you tick? What will get you going? Yeah, that's effectively a good one.

So, Alec, what gets you going? Feeling in control. Yeah, feeling strong also. Feeling like I'm doing the right thing. And I guess that will be it for now. Lately, that's really what my life has been. I've been like working out in the morning. I read. I go to work. I'm trying to do what helps people. And then I go back home. Because probably you don't know, but in Quebec, basically society is on pause. Like, aside from essential worker, everybody's at home, expected to be home, to stay at home. And it's been like that for like the last whole month. So, it gives you a pretty square life. You're either at work or at home.

Yeah. It looks like you need a COVID haircut. Like, there's going to be a whole series of hashtag COVID haircuts pretty soon. Like, people trying to cut their hair. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, actually, that's interesting. Yeah. It's true. It's about that time. Yeah, we went on a bike ride today, actually. Went to the beach a little bit. And the beach lot was all closed. There was no cars there and stuff. So, there was like a big widespread area where people can like distantly stay away from each other pedaling. But they haven't really required here yet any of the mask, like the required mask outside.

But there's sure a lot of people with masks outside. Do they have masks for you? Yeah, they do too. Here, masks are not required. But it's asked that everybody stays two meters away from anybody else as soon as you're not in your home, right? And that's it. Also, public transportation is free to avoid the contact with the hands. I hear for cards or for change. They also, you can only pay with cards in stores. What else has happened? That's the death of the loony. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, that's interesting. It's interesting how all that. Yeah, they're trying to keep you on the grid now. You can't just pay cash for a plane ticket anymore and go cross country.

They're trying to make sure it's rough on money laundering. That's for sure. Right. They're the silent victims. And staying off the grid for sure. Yeah. I don't want them to know where I'm at. I was thinking about it before. Can you pay cash for a hotel anymore or even an airfare? Can you actually just say, I just want to pay cash. I don't want to pay credit card. I don't think so. I think there should be a way. Like even, actually, I did this one time. I tried to put cash on one of those cards that were just like, you go to save on or something and you get a cash card, a burner card. I said, okay, I want to do this.

And they wanted my ID. And I'm like, what's the point of this thing if I want a burner card? So there is no way around it anymore. Okay. So now we've fulfilled your dream of having a random conversation within your podcast. I guess we'll get on to the open-ended questions. I guess. That was my dream? Yeah, that was your dream. That's what you, you said, that's the ones you liked. You liked when Michael Band was talking about Pokemon. Oh, no, no, Dragon Ball. Yeah, that is true. That is true. Absolutely. It was not Pokemon and it was Dragon Ball. That's for sure. It was Dragon Ball Z. That's something Mr. Band made very clear.

Yeah, he was, yeah. He's, I've not seen him since, but I want to get him a shirt. I'm sure what, amongst probably his other Dragon Ball Z shirts, really. Okay. So you wrote me this whole write-up. On opening questions in regards to a guy, Ray. And you, it's funny, actually. You kind of already knew my thought process on things, which I kind of giggle that. I'm like, oh, you're going to do your normal stuff, like first aid and scab pickings and blah, blah, blah. And so, true. And I was like, yeah, it probably goes, yeah, that sounds about right. So, it's really easy, I think, to caught up as a healthcare provider to go through and say, hey, can you show me a movement that bothers you?

You know, do you feel numbness? Blah, blah, blah. You know, like, because we need to gather those data points. And really, when it comes into a history-taking process, we're supposed to go down like a rough algorithm of O, P, P, P, Q, R, S, T, and so on. You got to fill in your dots. But sometimes, like, you miss, like, the point, like you mentioned later, where you said, you know, what was his reason, or let's see, what was his reason of coming in to you? What was his reason for coming in last time to somebody else? Why didn't he go back? You know, is there anything in relationships to exercise that you can pick up on and value with him?

Can you kind of mention about maybe, why is it important to figure out why he was so in love with sports? So, Ray liked sports back in high school or college, and then he stopped playing for five to ten years or whatever, right? Yeah, exactly. So, why is this such valuable information to pick that up? The reason why you want to pay good attention to those details is that if we take out the medical aspect of, let's say, doing rehab or even training in general, it's basically behavior modification, right? Knowing why the person decided at this moment to go seek for help and care is important because once you know that, you know how you can't do your marketing or your wording with that very particular person.

Someone who just wants to get out of pain or someone that realizes that he's aging and he wants to feel better in his body, so he decides to pick up sports. He go jogs a little bit. His knees get hurt. He comes to you. He's not fueled by the same thing as, let's say, Ray, who just wants to be out of pain, right? So, knowing this, because when you want to support someone in changing and adopting new behavior, you want to have kind of a sales pitch, right? There needs to be something worth at the end of the process. And knowing what that is helps you kind of shape how you're going to build things up.

Okay, so then when we're questioning, I guess, how do we make it so we're not sounding like real earthy on him? Hey, Ray, what did you love about playing college football? You know, like, how do we, like, word it to the point of just kind of letting him just kind of start spilling the beans versus, you know, us digging too deep and wanting to be his, like, lover or something, you know? Yeah, okay, yeah, to not look creep, let's say. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like, I guess maybe there's certain questions they maybe expect from a health care provider or, like, there's only certain questions maybe to ask on date one.

You know, you don't, like, start asking, like, a bunch of weird, creepy things. But, obviously, we don't have a lot of time either in the beginning to get the person to come back either. Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, that's a good question because it's a consideration that I don't have because my job is to ask those questions, right? So, you kind of need to do it in a little bit of an undercover style, right? But, I don't know, I think I would go with, well, let's see, first, that's a very good question. But, I mean, what is it that makes you want to be able to be stealthy or sneaky about it? Why is it important to you to be?

That's probably a good question then. So, it makes me a little uncomfortable asking it because I feel like they're not going to reveal, possibly. And I feel like that happens quite a bit of the time, you know, not every time, but it's, so there's a, I'll give an example of, so a lot of times when I'm face-to-face with people, like, so I'll put my computer kind of right in front of them, a little bit to the side so I can take peeks at them and so on. And so, I got to write part of this narrative because I want to gather the information, but also the documentation is the thing. And so, some people, it's like, you know, tell me about, tell me what's going on, and they just start spilling the beans, and they're like, oh, it's really frustrating, I can't do this, and I really want to do that, and so they spill it.

And so, I'm like, great, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type me more, you know, things like that. And other people, it's like, what is, so, you start off with it, and it's like, okay, so tell me about this thing. They're like, yeah, it hurts, and I'm like, type, type, type, type. So, you know, what about it hurts? And they're like, oh, my leg, and you're like, so it's like a super choppy conversation, and without getting, like, sometimes I'll tell them, like, look, the more information I can get from you, the better.

Please be as detailed as you can be. And I remember I did have an, I had an intern one time that he, he was hanging out with me when we were interviewing the person, and so he said, hey, can I ask some questions? I said, sure, go ahead. And so, he started asking questions. She started spilling the beans to him, and I started to get the documentation down. And later, we talked about it. I said, look, you did a good job. You just keep going, because, like, if it was a complicated case, I wouldn't have got everything down in detail, because I keep having to change my train of thought. But your documentation flowed very well, and I don't know what it was that you said, but it tended to work.

I guess it's kind of like the two situations that I'll see. Yeah, yeah, but, but that's, that's something. Well, actually, first, I would like to underline a few things. See how my open-ended question got you going for, like, three minutes? Oh, we're going to play this game today. Okay. Yeah, and, and, see what, as soon as I ended my question, you stopped looking at me, you raised your eyes, and you didn't maintain visual contact with me, because you were thinking. So, there was no place, there was no time for you to think I was being creep, because you were actually wondering within yourself, what was the answer?

Because it was interesting to you, right? So, I think that's, that's probably where you want to put your, what you want to put your money on, because, because, even if a question is a little bit direct, or, or even kind of creep, if it's on point, people don't care. You, you, you, you, you, oh, my God, I, there's a word I can't translate in my mind, but, yeah, let's see, if you're on point, you'll be forgiven for being picky, I think. Okay. Also, when, when, when the person said, that, you know, you said, okay, what, what about it hurts? A switch, you kind of need to trick people, right? Because everybody always, already asked whatever that person's name was, what was hurting, and they said, oh, it's my leg, oh, shit, you're, poor little you, and it was, oh, yeah, I'm, my life is hard, and they kind of play violin in their mind a little bit, you know?

That already happened quite a few times, so they're pretty, they're pretty, I don't know, not saint, but. You prime, you prime in the pump, you just, like, pushing them on that route a little bit? Yeah, yeah, yeah, they, they already know the sequence, right? They're warmed up, so you need to trick them a little bit, so, okay, well, it's been hurting, blah, blah, blah, blah, okay, cool, and how did you realize you were in pain? Or, or, or, what, what in your body changed that made you know something was wrong? Mm-hmm. And, you can't say my leg. Yeah. Or, if you do, your job is to just, mm-hmm, and be a little smiley, but keep staring at him, like, you're not done yet.

Okay. And they say, well, and, and then, or you can just throw in some, some sub-question, right? Okay, well, at what, at what intensity, or, or, what was specific about that pain, or how is the pain in your knee different from the pain you, you get every once in a while as a headache, or. Or, you, you, you could ask them to, give them, give them the assignment to, the assignment to paint a, a more precise question, a picture of what pain is. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, a really quick break from the show. I want to let you guys know that I started putting out webinars that are, actually, they're workshops, rather.

They're regional workshops that I go through a five-step process of how to get people from diagnosis to loading, and actually into life throughout these different regions of the body. We have a low back, we have cervical spine, shoulder, hip, and upper and lower radicular cases. So, if you're struggling really regionally and working with people with, you know, things like hip impingement, shoulder rotator cuff, and things of that nature, just, I'd love for you guys to watch this. I've had a lot of people over the years ask me what I think about certain topics, and I am not best at organizing my thoughts unless it's in a format like this.

So, this is the best way for me to share the information that I have with you guys and the stuff that I've learned over the years from different podcasts, interviews, as well as workshops that I've been to, and just time in the trenches. So, hopefully, you guys take advantage of that. They're all on my website now. They're recordings of ones that we did live with some people earlier this year. That is at p2sportscare.com. Again, p2sportscare.com, and it's under products. Just scroll down until you see, there's going to see, it's going to see a five-step something or other for that region of interest for you.

So, hopefully, you guys take advantage of that. I think you'll really be happy about it. Now, back to the show. Got it. See how I got you going for three minutes there, and you just didn't? Yeah, I did. I guess when I think of the creepy question, there is, I have a friend that we joke, he was dating for a while, now he's getting married. Thankfully, it really worked for him at some point. And so, we're talking about communication in his dates and stuff, and I'm like, why don't you say, hmm, interesting, tell me more. And so, every once in a while, we're doing something, he's like, ah, tell me more.

And so, it's kind of like a joke, but it's like, you don't want to hear more. You're full of shit, you know? So, I guess I kind of think that of as like, okay, no one really say that in life. It's like, I guess we're assuming people, I guess I would assume people have like a, there's a certain communication style or flow that most people would be accustomed to. Like, you go to the checker, and it's like, how was your day? Did you find anything okay, right? It's like, part of the course, it's just standard. And then there's someone else who's like, tell me more. You know, and you're like, what the hell?

Like, who is this guy, you know? So, I went to this doc, and he said, tell me more. Who's this guy? I don't know. I guess I'm just thinking about what's a good middle ground. I like the open-ended questions. I think they're perfect, you know? But, just sometimes the people who don't want to give, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah, well, that's, that's, these people exist, right? And when you get on them, if they don't want to give, you will not get. That's how it goes, right? So, that's the thing also, with, like, don't push it. Like, you're going fishing, right? But, sometimes, you throw your line, nobody's hanging on the rod, and just, there's no fish for you there.

It happens. And it's also, there's, of course, you also want to kind of put your answer one by one in an order where there's a build-up, right? You will ask for more details about pain before you ask. Okay, cool. And why is it important to you to feel strong in your body? Because that's not an opener. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I was thinking. Like, so, out of context, open-ended, but still very good questions. So, I guess there's a, I guess there's a, you're saying there's a flow. Yeah. Logical. For sure, there's a build-up, and there's a timing for questions. Okay. That's for sure. So, what's your expectations of this podcast?

Fame and fortune, I think. I don't know. What do we need everybody to understand on this? What's going to be the golden takeaway? What do I need to have as the first 15-second role of this podcast so everyone just listens in? Oh, cool. Putting more pressure on me is a good way to make me chill. No. Maybe you have it right there. I don't know. I think the main thing with, it's to keep in mind, like, these true procedure, mirroring, rewarding, and open-ended questions, there are tools, right? But I think now you're getting to the point where you need to have, you need to have a mind, like a mental frame to give meaning to, like, the more interaction you're going to, oh, my God, I don't know what that word is in English.

How you're going to get more out of people, you got to make some sense of it and organize it and get leverage out of it. I think that comes from just understanding how hard change is. I think that's, actually, actually, that's a good one. That's one that's going to get me going. I'm amazed by how people don't realize how changing is hard. Like, and I refer to people like doctors, physio, chiro, people in my field doing special care counseling, you know, psychology. Like, changing a behavior is hard. Like, it requires time. It requires support. And I think just being more, probably more, not compassionate, but just more understanding of the fact that, of course, you're going to ask your clients or your patient to do their exercise every day.

And they will do it five days out of the week. But, like, that's amazing. Last week, they did nothing. So, I think that's one of the things. I think change is always produced by, it's not about subtracting things. It's about adding things. It's about creating new, it's about being creative rather than trimming how you behave or how you think. I think you just need to offer more. People do their best, right? That's my belief. That's my absolute belief. People do their best. So, if they're not doing what's expected of them, take for granted. They need more options, more support, or more understanding of what's going on.

But, I think taking for granted that people want to do the good thing is a requirement to not get burnt out. Yeah, yeah. Just work with people. Not getting frustrated. They're not doing exactly what you asked, but they're doing the best they can. Yeah, exactly. Because if you keep in mind that changing is hard, the difficulty of the task itself can take the responsibility of why they're not doing everything that you asked. If that difficulty is not there, you're going to take it personal, right? And if some of your patients are having a difficult time to actually move, get involved in treatment or something, well, maybe if you're not competent, it's you, right?

But aside from that, if they're struggling, it's not about you. It's about the task. So, a question on that, too, because I mentioned that they need support. It's hard to change. They're doing the best they can. I'm just curious on the people that, because I do this all the time with DIY. Like, I YouTube, I do it, I struggle. At some point, I ask for help, but I don't always. Like, I'm okay with haphazard, you know, as long as it's sufficient. So, in regards to you giving some of your people guidance, do they always recognize or do a lot of times they recognize the value of the guidance? Or do they think it's, do they, or do they see the value of the guidance?

They respect that the guidance needs to be done. And I'm wondering if part of the best they can do has to do partly to do with their utilization of the guidance or not. Because some people disregard the guidance, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's an interesting thing to know why. Because that's always weird. Like, someone goes in your office and gives you money for your expertise to disregard it. That's, in a sense, mind-boggling a little bit. Usually, I think rebellion is an attempt to gain power. Or to regain power, especially. So, for some reason, in a twisted way, I think sometimes people give you money in order to have advice to be allowed to not respect them.

Or not follow your guidelines. Because deciding to not do what it is expected is still deciding. So, I think when you see this, the mental note I take is I need to make this person feel more secure and more in control. And if I do this, I should see a decrease in how passive they are because usually being passive and just not doing stuff is an attempt to gain power. By frustrating people by showing you, look, you can't control me. Which has probably something to do with what's going on with their, how their mind is framed rather than how you're offering services. But I think that's something that, in a delicate manner, you can't address.

You can't just tell them. And that's where the way you conduct yourself is a complement of what you're actually saying. Like, you need to embody that you're actually caring and willing to understand that you're not mocking them. But if someone's not doing it, at some point, I would have that discussion of, like, look, George, you're coming in my office. You're paying good money for my services. But the part that's on you ain't done. And I'm wondering, is it because you don't want to have your injury fixed? Or is there something that prevents you from doing it? Because to me, it makes no sense.

Obviously, you're here. You want to have, you want to heal, right? So, what's going on? And I would give them the responsibility to tell me what is going on. So, if, and they might say, but that would be exceptionally surprising to me. They might say, you're actually right. I don't want to heal my knee. Have a good day. And they will leave, right? But that's actually really surprising. But when you cast light on some of the, like, the elephant of the room, usually it gives people the permission to see it. Like, because, I mean, you're asking them if they're all right, what's going on. They can tell that you're not pissed at them.

You're not going to, like, you're showing interest toward what their problem is. So, they will feel allowed to give you. And sometimes it's tough as, as an example in my job. At one point, one person wanted to get more physically active. Because we realized that what was, one of, her big struggle was she was super anxious. So, she used weed to get less anxiety. And we figured out when she moves, she gets less anxiety so she can smoke less weed so she can keep her job, basically. But she was just not doing it ever. And I was pretty frustrated. At some point, I asked her, like, pretty much a question I just asked you, like, what is going on?

Because, I mean, you're showing up to our meetings. You're doing your chores every week. You pay the rent. Like, what is it that makes you not do what you want to do? And I just realized that to her, being active was doing crunches. Like, the mental picture. Go ahead. Oh, wait. She was mentally doing crunches? No. That's what doing exercise was to her. Because you're a girl. So, you want to be cute. And you want to have abs. And you want to be thin. So, she wanted to tone her abs. And I never realized that. So, two things happened. First, I gave her a yoga mat. And all of a sudden, doing crunches was a little more back-friendly.

And also, we had the discussion of, like, look, if you go walk outside, or if you go to your job not taking the bus, which is, like, a 15-minute walk, like, three days a week, you are doing more exercise. There's no need to put the bar higher than this. The worst-case scenario is, in a week, we need to raise it again because you succeeded. And, I mean, that's a very good worst-case scenario, right? And from there on, she was doing exercise. But, for the three weeks before that, I was, like, I was just mentally being frustrated. Like, the fuck is going on? You're doing everything else. What is wrong?

So, she was doing it the way she knew how. Yeah. She just didn't know what you were asking her to do. There you go. You exactly got it. No, what I mean, it's absolutely certain. Since you started working, you had an overweight client who wasn't doing his home exercise or her home exercise. And probably, you would have dig a little bit and you figured out it's because he or she is ashamed to be seen by her spouse. You would have the discussion of, what about you move your yoga mat into the garage? And it would start to happen. Because they could do it out of the, let's say, the living room. So, no one would look at them.

It wouldn't be a source of shame. Boom! They're doing their homework. That's why you just got to always work with nudists. There's no shame. Just nudist colonies only. I guess you found your niche, Doc. Yeah. There was one site. There's no nude. Is there nude areas in Quebec? I guess. Let me Google that up. I'm sure. Yeah, you should figure that one out. There was a place down here that's a beach that is a nude beach that I didn't realize how close it was to where we had parked. And we started walking that way and, man, just everybody's playing volleyball, you know, and it's not what you would have thought a nude beach would be or maybe it was.

But, like, there was not, there was not, it's not like a, like a, like a calendar type of thing, you know. It was more of like, oh, my God, all these people are very liberated. And we felt like creeps because we had clothes on. We're like, all right, we're just going to leave. We're not going to keep walking in that direction. It's more like a spectacle. Um, but yeah, good point on, so in that case, she, she wasn't, she wasn't being resistant at all. She, I'm trying to, I'm thinking about, go back. There was that, you made the conversation about the guy who, oh, so the person who was in power, who wanted the power, um, their, their need for power or the ability to make the choice to, to just not do what you said, um, is greater than their physical pain.

Is that like the need system on that or is there a way to flip it a little bit? It's, it's pretty, it's an hard discussion to navigate because it requires me to say stuff I want to write to you about in the next email. But, um, yeah, that would be probably, probably, you want to assume that if they could, they would, then why they can't can be like kind of tricky. But in, so I feel like your yoga mat people, you know, like do it in the garage. Like those are, those are, I mean, obviously not obvious, but we could, if those would be easy wins, but the person who says no, or just keeps coming back, but it's just not doing it for no reason whatsoever.

Other than just to be right, that one's a harder one. So I know it's a very unique type of person, but I'm sure there's a lot out there. And, and, and, and, and also those deals, deals stick out, right? When you ask them like, what is going on? Or you'll figure out which, which one is which, right? Someone who's like, who's actually, who isn't compelled at all by your interests in where is their logistic or information, informational deficit that makes it impossible for them to, to, to behave like they should, like doing their home exercise or modifying their posture or something. Like you'll see it if like one of the things that, uh, motivational interviewing says is that you should not feel hard.

If, if having a discussion about doing with someone is making you feel frustrated, if you, if you sense muscle crispation, like you're doing something wrong, deeper, the other one should work harder than you. You're not, you're, you're, you're, you're just, you're, you're the sidekick of, of the, the movie where they changed their lives. You're just, they're the superhero and you're Robin, right? Your job is to be on the side. Once in a while, I give a high five, take a job or, Oh, I would suggest this, but you're supposed to be, uh, it's, they're supposed to be working harder than you. That makes sense.

Yeah. I'm trying to, I'm recalling some people over the last year where I did feel walking out. I'm like, man, that was exhausting, you know? And I did feel like I was working harder because they would just question and I would explain the reasons why these were needed things. And then they would keep resisting with questions versus them. So, well, in that case, I would cast light right on it too. I would say, Jacob, you've been questioning me a lot. I suppose it's cause you, you, you, you want to feel like you can trust me. Is there something I could do? So you could trust me. You, you, you feel like you're trusting me.

We could move on a little faster after that. And then it'll tell you if there's something, but for real, when you, you ask people what is going on, usually they tell you, right? If you do it in a way that, that you, you, um, but the, the tricky thing is, um, if you look shaky, you, you'll not get your shot. You need to look, you need to, to, uh, to exude confidence, right? Cause if you, if it wasn't, uh, if they weren't scared to go there with you already, they would have been right. They would have said it. Hey doc, I'm not quite sure, but they're afraid of either you getting mad. They're afraid of making you feel insecure or they want, they just, it's not the norm.

So they, you know, stick to your line, stay at your place. Um, but so when you, you, you, you ask for it, you need to, to be confident. So, so they know, okay, he is in control. I can go there. Right. And they just say like, why they're questioning you? What do you think that person was questioning you? If you think back at it? Uh, I don't know. I mean, you know, like I, I, I imagine it's, I, at the time I, I feel like I thought it was, they weren't convinced or they had some other type of, you know, belief that they, of things that needed to happen. Um, actually I do remember one person in particular, they, they, they told, they told me what they needed to have done.

And I, it was very against what I think I should do with the person. And, um, I, I could, uh, I could have just gone through and did it, but I think I would have just felt bad doing it. And so I just told him, I said, look, you know, like, you know, with all respect, I think what you're doing is, is you could do much more and I can show you how and blah, blah, blah, things like that. And I just spoke for about a minute or so. And he said, okay, thank you. I'll find somebody else, you know, something like that. Um, but it was, it was, I was like, Oh, I'm like, I might've, I might've, that might've been perfect.

Cause he wanted something else clearly, but he wasn't, he wasn't really open to a conversation about it either. He just wanted one specific thing. No. Yeah. Well, I don't, in those case, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. There's no magic trick. If someone don't want to do something or their, their mind is set on something. Yeah. I think you had, we had talked about that one last time anyways, it was, uh, you said somewhat, you're just a tool in their, in their plan and serve your purpose. Um, but yeah, no, I, I think the, the recent, the recent people is that they, they weren't, I feel like I knew what would work with them and they just weren't biting on the idea.

Like they weren't far away, but it was like, there was something resisting. I guess I never, I guess I never really asked them, you know, what's the hangup here? Um, I know one guy said, Oh, price, you know, I'm going to, it's like, yeah, I can't get by price with you. It's just, that's what it is, you know? And so I think the rest of the conversation I probably had, I believe I had was like, it was kind of like trying to create some value and it felt like an uphill struggle for me. I think it's quite interesting that you realize you didn't ask them because probably they would have told you, right?

Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, it's whenever they say price, this is hard for me because I don't, I don't believe I don't want to drop price. Like that's just what my time's worth. Um, and so other than that, you know, like I'm okay. Well, I think there's still, there's still a way to give them an options in the context of, of price, right? I think there's still a way to, well, listen, that, that is, that's how much my time costs. That's what my time is worth. What we could do, if that's the only hiccup, what we can do is just reduce the frequency at which we see each other. Could that work for you?

And then look, I mean, that's taking for granted and you're willing to, to, to have that, that flexibility. But, uh, I mean, if, if the guy's like, you're, you're, you're doing good, but I can't afford seeing you once a week, like, okay, well, let's see you once every three weeks. And I'll, I'll just like, and text me if there's something right. Or, uh, I mean, just to, if, if it would be just money offering to lower the frequency might be an option. Yeah. I think that's, that's an option with, I know that with, uh, with some people, I like, I see that they're so close to a solution. Like they tell me their whole story, their, their struggle.

And I'm like, Oh God, you're, you're so close. I remember I told my girlfriend one time that someone wrote me this email and I was like, Oh my God, they're so close. Like they're, they mentioned all the right things so close, you know? And then, so if I talk to them, you know, I'm like, Hey, just, you know, this is probably what it's going to take, you know? And they're like, I don't know. I'm blah. I'm like, and then I start getting passionate about it. I'm like, dude, I'm, I'm telling like, just please one, just one time, just come, just talk to me, just blah, blah, you know? And then I, I, it doesn't always go well after that.

Sometimes it goes, it goes extremely well, but I think the, I think my control of the conversation of me talking or working more than them depends on how close I think they are. Like if they're really close, dude, you're just not, you're just, you're just like someone fed you a bunch of BS or you read a bunch of BS. You're so close. Um, and other people, it's like, it's like, this is going to take a little bit of time. And I just tell them, it's going to take a little bit of time, you know? But I think that's just my interpretation of it. Well, I, I, I, I think you're, I mean, you, you can't, I actually have a question for you.

Why is it, why is it that them being so near making it to that point where the, the, the, the switch is flipping and they, you know, they change their life. They get rid of their injury or something. It's almost happening. And why is that making you feel powerless? It could, it could be just exciting. Uh, I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I feel powerless. Okay. The, I guess if you're going to say a powerless part, it would be the fact that they are not choosing to let me help them, but they're so close because we're talking right now. Right. All the only more that you're frustrated.

Yeah. I guess I'm frustrated. Cause like the, I guess for me, like, like I don't make a bunch of money, but I know that people spend money on the things that they want and they value. Like I paid cash for an MRI cause I want no beyond reasonable doubt. I didn't have a spinal infection. Like I, I pay cash for the things that I know that I want and need and that are valuable to me. Um, you know, but like my friends, the joke, like, he's like, Oh, you're the cheapest guy. No, I'm like, but I'm also the guy that bought the first house. Right. I'm like, and I actually, so based upon that theory, I spent more money than you ever have in your entire life, but I just chose what to spend it on.

So I'm being frugal and being very focused on what I care about. So I guess with these people, it's like they're, I guess that the, the small barrier of, you know, a couple hundred dollars is too much for them. I don't know. I don't know what the switch is, but how close they are. It just makes me think that it's just so, I can't, I can't word it any other way than the, just dude, you're like one step further as the finish line. And you just, and you're stopping and you're, and you might choose to walk backwards. You're so close. So I don't know what it is, but the other people, maybe just cause it's going to be more, um, more thoughtful on my part.

It's these ones don't take a lot of thought. They're just very easy, simple cases, but they, they feel that they're very complicated and, and I would love to help them, but they're not allowing it, I guess is the point. So. Yeah. See, I, when I was a patient, I was probably that last, uh, that last option. I was feeling like I was such a complicated case. And if, when I, when the physician or the, the, the physio was, was kind of like, you know, doing his thing and acting a little bit routinely, that was making me, um, repulsive or resistant to their, their suggestion. Cause I was, that I totally believe I was seeing a confirmation of the fact that they were missing something.

Cause I was, the feeling of, of my body being a mess was so present that there was no way I was like, I, I, I couldn't doubt it. Right. Of course I was a complicated case. So when they were like nonchalantly going by and say, okay, cool. Oh, your neck hurts. And then I would say, yeah, my neck hurts. And I would try to describe more precisely how it hurts. And they were like, okay. And then they were just, and, uh, I'll walk here and move on. And I was like, okay, well, how can I, how can I believe in what they're doing? Right. Even though they probably were way more on track than I gave them credit for were medically trained.

Right. But it, well, I know it was just making me getting just, I was off. Yeah. Well, I, I was like, I always, I usually tell patients it's like, I understand it's, it's hard to be in pain. It's hard to be in your shoes. I've been there. Like I understand. And I, and I tell them it's, I, I understand this is painful and I understand it's frustrating. I've had a lot of the same things, but I don't think your solution will be complicated. It'll just be effortful. You just have to put a little effort in is all like, well, this is perfect. That would have, I think that would have done the job with me.

Yeah. Okay. Oh, you keep using that. I don't use it all the time, but. Oh no, I think that's a keeper. Yeah. That was good. So, so in that, in, in that, with that, then that, that conversation thread, then would you still feel like you're too complicated? Because the whole point is to start something with you. Most people, I feel like they don't start because they think they are too complicated or it's, there's too many ways to fail. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, I think what effect it would have on me, it would have had, or I think it would, it will have on people anyway, is that, as I said earlier, you like reaching out for me in that way saying like, yo dude, I get it.

You're in pain. That's not hard. My, I think that your solution is going to be simple, but effortful. You saying that it gives me a, an alternate story to tell about my pain. So I can only, the more I can doubt about me being complicated, let's say is only, it's equal in proportion to how I can feel. I can trust you more now. See what I mean? It kind of got converted. So I think it would, that would do the job of like making me go through because motivation fluctuate, right? Um, so, but I, I mean, I think that can get, that can totally be a game changer during a first appointment to have someone be there in a second.

And if in between these two appointments, they've been doing their own work or the treatment during the session itself has reduced symptoms. I think that's going to keep building up that, that ability to, to stay away from, to want, yeah, to like shy away from that story of being a complicated case. Good. Yeah. I always tell them, I try to tell them to not read anything on their problem. At least, you know, focus on the couple of things that we're doing. Yeah. Cause I'm sure that usually what I do to, did you, every time someone, yeah, every time we're having a discussion and like for somehow there's a diagnostic or something that is brought up, right?

Like, let's say in your talks, it's always tendonitis or, uh, uh, arthritis or cancer or something. Me, it's a, uh, psychosis, anxiety, schizophrenia or something. Right. And everything's every time, like the, the anxiety pops up and you're like, Oh shit, I'm going to Google. And I'm like, I suggest you don't. Cause right now you have a little tear in your nail and in five seconds you'll believe you have cancer. Right. So don't go there. That's actually, that's my literal example. Just don't Google it. It's been there your whole life. Now you just know how to name it. Let it be. Yeah. That's a good idea.

Yeah. Um, I think we covered a lot of stuff. Is there anything you want to cover extra? Oh, there's actually one thing that, that I wanted to say, cause you, you were, um, you were asking about what to do with, uh, those were like, just, just this near, like, you know, they're just about to budge and to buy in. Right. One of the things that inter, uh, intervention, uh, what is it? Motivational interviewing, my God is, is, is saying is that, um, you need to give people the, um, absolute right to not change. Absolute. What is it? They're allowed to not change. Okay. So give them the choice to say no.

Yeah, absolutely. And more, more than the choice. Like it's like, it's, uh, their most basic dignity is to be allowed to say no to whatever they want, like whatever you want. And that's pretty like the, the, the, the, the catch 22 is that once you do that, the fact that people don't feel like you want to control them kind of sends them the message that they're actually making a choice. Right. Like there's no out, out, there's no outside influence on their decision-making it's them. And that is really empowering. So in a paradoxical way, allowing people not to change with out of, let's say, uh, uh, a sample of a hundred people and a hundred others, uh, people, other sample, those who feel like they're not forced to change more of them with change.

That's kind of like basically what, what, what they're, they're saying. And it's my belief that is true. So I, so I think for those who are just about to change, to not try to influence them or, or to, to, to, uh, cause you know, kind of like a turtle, if people feel like they're, you're trying to manipulate them or push something onto them or push your own agenda, they're going to like hide in their, their shells. Right. So to avoid that, I think it's, it's, it's good to, to like frequently state, like these are your options, but you're the one who's deciding it's your, it's your call. I think if you did this, it will have that consequence.

Uh, I think if you choose your second option, it will have those consequences and then the choice is up to you. And then I think it's, it's a, it's a good taste to add. Um, I, I would personally be, uh, I would be sad that they, they, you go down that route. Cause I think you're just about to, to reach a new step or you're about to, to, to break a glass ceiling for you. You're, I think you're, you're getting near a bridge. So being, I would, I would keep going, but it's your call. Well, good. I like you add that last part. Cause I know that with, I guess I see that when, you know, people come to, to see us, it's like, they're asking for us to suggest to them.

And yeah, that's a fine line, right? Yeah. So it's like, they, they don't have, like, I was using the analogy of taxes. My tax lady says, so, you know, you want to, you know, K, KW one form 52. What do you want to do with it? I don't know. Just you do it. Like, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I can't make it in form. I have no idea. Hey, do you want to, do you want to make an X, do you want to take an extra 500 this month? Do you want to do it next year? I don't know. You, what, what makes better sense? I don't know. And I just want them to choose because I had, I hired them cause I'm uneducated about the topic and that's, that's, that's my thought with it.

But I know that, you know, people got to have, they got to have the choice, but they also, if I feel like to have, to make the, the choice that will get them to their goal, I don't want to say right choice because the, whatever they choose is going to probably be the right choice, but to get them to the goal of not being in pain, they also have to have their background education about it. And they, most of the time they don't. So I don't know. That's, I know it's a fine line. Yeah. But actually like your case with the taxes, you're actually not a problem, right? You're, you're, you're the clients who bought in.

Like if someone was in your clinic and we're like, well, I don't know, doc, I don't want to know how many things I want to do this week. Give me my own work. You're the one who knows I'll get it done. Like that's, that's, they're super bought in. If you're at the place where they are requesting you to be an expert, that is willing less to obey that we're good. I mean, yeah, but that's, that's the thing though. It's, I think it's okay to show, um, to show that you care. It's just, you don't want to, how you, you don't want, how you care to be mistaken for or the desire to control them. And that's always the fine line, right?

But I think if, if your clients, whoever, whatever their profile is, if the clients feels like you care, you're involved, you're also knowledgeable, but you're not trying to control them. You're, you're, you're, you're, if they actually feel like you're an ally or a tool, that's a, I think you're good. Whatever, whatever would have, will come out of that treatment. It's probably more than what would have, if they didn't feel that way, right? If that makes sense. Okay. Got it. Well, I think we're approaching time. I think. Right on. Are you going to write a book? Did we decide on you're going to do a book with all this stuff?

Uh, yeah, I think actually my plan right now is to, this is actually the top process I had, when I decided how many more email I'm going to write to you. Cause I'm, it is surprisingly tough for me to write stuff down. Um, this is, you're supposed to see three this year, right? And this is the, wait, does the introduction? That was the first, yeah, that was the first one. The two next one are actually going to be about, um, well, motivational interviewing as, as, uh, we talked of a little bit today, where basically that email is going to be more about like how, how to understand, how to think what motivation is as something that is dynamic and, and what, what are the tools you have to, to, um, to encourage its growth basically.

Um, so that's going to be a nice one, I think. And the other one is going to be one about, uh, Glasser, uh, needs, uh, needs system, which is the idea is that there's basically five human needs and they're, uh, no one is more important than any other one. But the, the, the, the, the, the one that is the less fulfilled is the one driving the current behavior of the person. And there's a little bit of a, there's a few tricks to kind of figure out what's the, the, the, the need you're trying to fulfill right now. But once you get, once I think with those two things and the three emails you already got, I think it's, it kind of gives you a little bit of, of, of tools and a little bit of, of, of just, uh, maybe wisdom or just, just some insight as to how to use these tools to make an informed, uh, use of them.

Um, so that, that's, I think these five emails can be, uh, reshaped into an ebook or something. I think that that's going to be my, that will be my next project. Okay. That sounds good. I can't wait. Are these, uh, I I'm saving the emails so I can read through them all again. Cause there is a lot, there's a lot to this. I, I, by the way, I don't know if you can tell, I was trying to get better. I read like half of it and I emailed you and said, uh, I'm still halfway through. I didn't ignore the scene. And I appreciate that. See, that, that, that would be. Yeah, you're right. I appreciate that.

Yeah. I was quite surprised actually in my mind. I was like, okay, cool. Now I like, I'll, I'll wonder, is he answering me only after six weeks, but the first six weeks I'll show, I understand. I'll understand. I thought, I thought actually, so I knew my habits of this. Cause I, I, so I read half, I read half of it. I was in a, I was waiting for somebody in a park. And so I was reading through, I'm like, I can get through this right now. And I was reading, reading, reading, reading, reading, reading. It was like 10 minutes. I'm like, oh shit, I can't finish this. And so I kept, I kept trying to keep it at the top of my email box, email box.

And people keep emailing me. I'm like, so my mission over the last couple of weeks was to start getting rid of random shit. So I saw that your thing was in there. And then, and then, and then when, when we finally emailed again, I thought, screw it, let's just do a podcast because I'm going to, now I have a timeline. I have to read the entire thing and I need to understand it before we talk. That was a thought. Well, that was good. Did it work good for you? Yeah. It's, yeah. It's always good, valuable information. And I think actually your writing structure was better this time too. Oh my God.

I am so happy you're saying this because this time I did not get read, nobody read, ready to, to proofread it for me. And I was trying to go on a little more of a bloggy style, let's say. And I was quite, I was, I was awaiting feedback on the writing. I'm quite happy with this. Oh yeah. No, it's good. Yeah. Cause there was, there was broken. Um, there's like three, three sentences per paragraph. There's bullet points. There's like both the bolding and even the, what I was thinking. Okay, good. I get it. Open-ended questions are awesome. How can I implement them? So, yeah. So no, it was, it was better.

Um, cause I know that I get scared away with a lot of texts too. And actually the funny thing with going back and reading it after not being able to, to, to read it fully and pay attention to it for a couple of days, um, with the bolded points or sorry. Yeah. With the bolded points, it drew me back to natural starting stopping points like chapters. Yeah, basically, basically that's right. Um, cause that's, when I say it's hard to write, I, I, I realize you really need to own your stuff to be able to put it on paper, right? Mm-hmm. Somehow, I don't know why, but it's way easier for me to explain stuff out loud than when I write it.

So I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get some structure to help me now. Yeah. That's good. And it, and it looks like your talking style too. Yeah. Cool. Ah, I'm so happy. This is exactly what I have in mind. God damn, I'm good. Wonderful. Well, thanks again, doc. Yeah. Pleasure. Well, I'm sure we'll do it again. You'll be the, the most popular person on the podcast. You'll have gone on five different times by the end of it all. Yeah. Is there going to be a, oh, okay. Yeah. Well, wow. Well, I'll be the most popular one based on appearance, not on crowd response. Based on appearances and probably the amount of downloads.

Cause you have five times the potential of downloads than most people, they have one. That is true. Yeah. You're like star Wars. You made way too many movies. And so you're the most popular movie franchise in the world. Even though the last three were probably not that good. Nor were the first three. Wonderful. I'll have something prep for you next time. I was more going to say, wow, that means I might do something better than McGill. I might be better than McGill at something. That's amazing. You've already, you've already been on more than McGill. Now this is three. It's McGill's been. This is amazing.

I'm lucky it's COVID. I will go get a tattoo of this. I think. Oh, I think you should. I think you should. Bad decisions happen during COVID. I should find someone who can do a, I should find it like a underground, unofficial saloon to get my tattoo. That would be good. No, I think he's a YouTube tattoo. How to tattoo yourself and do it that way. Yeah, that's true. I know that in prison, they use guitar strings and old cassette player and ashes. This is how you get a tattoo in prison. Really? Oh, so they just poke it through the, what's the, what's the cassette stuff for? A cassette player? Yeah.

So just, you put it like you would rewind the cassette. So, but you make it at the end. So the machine kinds of try to rewind, but can't. And if you do it often enough, you can stab someone in the skin with a very little needle or guitar string. And if you put enough ashes diluted in, in, in water, you can get it in the skin. So you get, you can get your first gang tattoo. How amazing. I know. I don't know how you're going to do your back though. So you better keep it on the front side, upper thigh. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. This is, no, this is clearly, um, well, yeah. Well, maybe I might not just get a tattoo yet.

Yeah. I'll think of it. Maybe McGill is not worth being a mask. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about him in that way. Anyway. Right on. I think we're done. Thank you. Thank you again. Alec, thanks for being on. It was a pleasure as always. And love talking to you. And, uh, yeah, maybe we'll do this another time coming up in the future too. So looking forward to any material that you end up putting out, because this is actually very valuable, uh, for clinicians to understand what their patients are thinking about and what makes them make an educated decision about what to do going forward.

Because I know that we love to help people and we want to see people get better. And one of the truly most frustrating things in our profession, or at least for me, is knowing what we feel is a good call to action for the patient to do. And then they pick not that, or they end up discharging themselves, or they end up going and trying something different. So, uh, this is very helpful, I think, to everybody. And I'm sure that everybody can resonate with what I'm talking about in this, at least from the clinician standpoint. Um, so, uh, yeah, good information. Thank you so much for being on. Uh, and as, as always, everybody, uh, thanks for being part of the movement and I will see you next time.

Make sure you refer this to a friend. It's the only way this podcast ever gets any publication. So refer it directly to a friend right now. If you feel like they'll, they'll, they'll gain some information from this. I'll see you soon.