Training Hypermobile Dancers: Cues, Turnout and Mobility

Do they like ice cream or do they like salty food? These are just small things, so I'm constantly trying to keep the conversation going, even if it has nothing to do with movement, because if they like ice cream, I'm going to tell them, pretend you're squeezing that ice cream cone and you don't want it to let go. And that builds up trust with them, if you remember what a couple small things were that they like. You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales.

Hey guys, I'm Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. I am your host for the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the movement, movement. That was a bit of the interview I took with Allie Christensen today. She is a coach, trainer, trainer for dancers, young dancers, ballet, and she has a lot of good things to share in regards to working with that population set. Now, if you're a dancer or a dance coach or a dance teacher, you're still going to get a lot from this, so do not hang up on this podcast. You're going to learn a ton of stuff that she believes can improve your dancer's performance. If you're actually a clinician, you're going to get a lot of insight about how to work with this type of population because I think bendy athletes are very, in my opinion, they're very different and unique of how you work with them because they have extreme range of motion.

And also, too, when they're in the arts, they have a little bit of a bias about aesthetics. So those are all things that we need to consider with them. So I think you guys are really going to enjoy this interview today. You can find all the stuff on the show notes as well. I will mention at the end of the podcast. Now, before we get into the interview, I'm going to tell you a little bit about my preference of ice cream. You know what I like, I really like, is vanilla. And I think one of the best is actually Haagen-Dazs vanilla. And if you've gone to the store and you want to eat clean and so on, like you check out all these ice creams and Haagen-Dazs is actually one of the cleanest.

I think it only has about five ingredients in it. By the way, side tangent is that when I was growing up, we actually got, I think it was, maybe it was dryers or breyers or something like that. It wasn't Haagen-Dazs, but it was kind of in a, like a shoe box shape. So at one point, like we had opened this box of ice cream and we had eaten part of it. And then it had kind of got iced over how ice cream does after you take that seal off of it after I think a couple of weeks or a month or so. So we just put it in the sink and just let it melt overnight. So we just let it hang there. In the morning when we woke up, actually it was not completely gone.

What was left was actually a sponge shape. It still had the exact same shape that it had when we emptied it in there, but now there was no longer any liquid ice cream in it. It was crazy. So that's why I go with more cleaner products now. But either way, vanilla is the best. But what drives me nuts is that when people buy vanilla, they don't just buy vanilla, they buy vanilla bean. Vanilla bean, in my opinion, there's too much vanilla, too much vanilla taste in it. So if we're ever eating ice cream, the only way you can possibly ever buy vanilla bean is if you're going to put coffee on it. An affogato, I think is what it's called, because it kills that taste of too much vanilla.

So vanilla is the way to go. Let's get in the interview. Okay, everyone. Welcome on Ali Alexandra Christensen. So formal. Thank you. Did you know that you're on Podcast 112, the Players Club podcast? I've been told. Mm-hmm. Just wanted to make sure you know. That's from back in the day with, I think it was, who made Peaches and Cream, that song? I don't know. You don't know? 112. I think it was 112. That's why it's called that? I don't know why they called the Players Room 112. I think you need to fact check that. Okay. You're right. As you start speaking, I'm going to go on the computer and start fact checking why they call 112.

Okay, sounds good. So can you tell everyone about, actually, before we actually go into telling you about yourself, I want to have you on mainly because with the clinicians and strength coaches and people who work with people, I've found that actually working with people who are bendy is very different than working with people who are not. And since you work with bendy people and young bendy people, I thought you'd maybe provide some insight for people who work with those people or who want to. Yeah, I'm happy to share my experience. And it definitely has been something to learn to watch you here in the office versus me working with the young ones.

We have different vocabulary for sure. And I think it's needed. So we have to learn how to speak to our different clientele based on their sport, their lifestyle, their age. It's all different stuff. Yeah. So then why did you start working with dancers? Well, I grew up dancing and had various injuries as all dancers tend to have. And as I got into my professional career, I actually tore the labrum in my hip and actually danced through it. Dancers tend to move through pain until they absolutely can't. And then they're hesitant to go to the doctor because in the past they hear, oh, just rest for six weeks and then we'll get back into it.

And dancers of a high caliber don't have that luxury. They get taken out of their spot. They'll lose their jobs. So they just tend to ignore it like I did. And after going and realizing what I had done to my hip and being in a pretty severe state, I started to rehab myself by finding various movement methods, practitioners, so on and so forth. And that kind of led me into my career now, my education and wanting to work with dancers and hopefully change the way that they're treating their bodies at a young age as opposed to what I was doing. Okay. While you were saying that, I looked up room 112 is actually what if you go into Google, it says you put room 112 and then it fills it out is where the players dwell.

Ah, it's a rhyme. Well, it's from 112. The first thing comes up is 112, the song Only You Featuring Notorious B.I.G. Well, great. I'm honored to be on this podcast. Yeah, yeah. And the lyric is, the more I smoke, the smaller the filly gets. Room 112 is where the players dwell. Yeah. As we keep going, it doesn't, I'm sure I'm saying it wrong. Yeah. Great. I'm super honored to be on this one. Thank you. It was an important one. I was waiting to have a special person on for this one, really. Oh, thank you. I don't know what the next landmark one's going to be. Okay. So then, since you got injured then, did you start to, so you had to stop dancing, obviously.

At what point did you start deciding like, okay, well, I don't think I could dance anymore? It was actually probably about two years after I actually injured myself. So the, I injured myself and I moved, kept dancing for about a year. And I do remember the exact time, the exact rehearsal. I was in LA and I was dancing with a friend in her company. And I just remember thinking, there is no way I can keep doing this. Like, I feel like I want to die on the floor in pain. And that was my last show that I ever did there. So after that, it was about a year before I actually came to terms and said, okay, I'm not going to be dancing after this.

I thought I would be able to rehab myself into something different. But after visiting the doctor and having them tell me surgery was going to be necessary. And at that point, they said, if you continue to dance, you're going to end up with another surgery where they go in and shave off some of the labrum and, you know, do the little procedure. They're going to do it a couple times over the next 10 years. And then you're going to end up with a hip replacement. And I was like, oof, that's not, not what I'm going to do. So it was probably about two years after I got injured that I said, okay, we have to choose a different career here.

What did the first person say? What was the first person you went to? Um, I went to an orthopedic surgeon, um, and, uh, they, they told me that it was a pretty severe tear and that if I did the surgery, eventually we would have to come back in because my movement pattern was creating this injury, which was very astute. But what they didn't say is that we could change that movement pattern. They just said, surgery is the only option. If you're going to get better and we're going to be, you're going to be back here a couple times in the next 10 years. Um, so congratulations to him for knowing that movement caused this injury, but un-congratulations to him for not being able to tell me you could change this.

And that's where after a little bit of research and believing in movement patterns that I thought I can change this for myself, can't heal the tear, but I can definitely change what the future holds. And I did. So then when, when they told you you had a tear, then did you happen to, did you fixate on the tear or did you fixate on, I wonder what the movement correction could be? Um, you know, at first it was the tear for sure. Um, it was, I remember here, I remember thinking, uh, oh, I know some dancers who had this and they did have surgery and they're doing okay. But as I started to speak to those people in research, I found out their tears were much less than mine.

And that definitely got in my head and I felt like, oh, I'm not gonna be able to fix this, um, with surgery. And I don't know if I'm going to be able to get myself back into a dancing career. So it did take me a little bit and it took me, uh, doing some work with, um, some chiropractors. And I remember I did some laser therapy and a little bit of movement correction at first, um, some strengthening of the glutes and a little bit of work inside of the hip. But, um, it probably took about six or eight months after seeking some movement, small movement stuff before I realized I have to take this more seriously and look at the whole body and what actually caused this, not just the little part of my hip and the tear.

So then with the kids that you're working with now, have you encountered one with that same hip problem? Um, I encounter quite often what would probably turn into that problem. Um, it's very common dancers say their hips feel like they have a pinch in them, um, or they feel like they're clicking or popping pretty much any dancer I think is going to tell you their hips pop. Um, don't they show you? Yeah, they do. They, they send one hip up and they push their hip out to the side and it goes pop big, big thunk. So, um, especially with the feeling of pinching in the front of the hip when they live with their leg up above 90 degrees, that's a big sign that if they don't change their movement pattern, that they're going to end up with some hip problems later down the road.

And, um, depending on the style of movement they're doing, just like any sport, depending on what the major activity is that they have to do, they're going to end up with probably a tear if they're, if they don't change that pattern. Yeah, I know that we've, we've talked a bit about the movements above 90 with the hip and I, I remember like thinking there's a couple of times where I'm like, I don't even know what the hip is doing in that position. And I feel like I should know, but I, I, I feel like I can definitely, I can definitely rehab someone who's just a, I want to say regular athlete versus a super bendy one.

I don't even know what the hell to recommend in regards to rehab, to challenge that range of motion half the time. So these, these, these populations for me are interesting. I, what do you gotta say? Yeah, no, I mean, it is, it's challenging. I, it's challenging to have a person that is hypermobile in any joint and then add in that they're most of the time they're hypermobile in a lot of joints. So they don't have control not only over their hips, but it's in their spine, it's in their shoulders, it's even into their knees and ankles. They just are lacking the overall stability and control that comes with, that I'll say that comes with other athletes that I've worked with.

Um, part of that is that dancers don't tend to cross train. Um, they, they spend their life doing the same type of dance movement in their, in their dance studio and they don't do cross training outside, um, to strengthen that up. But there's things I think that are verbal cues that are happening that make it hard for someone like you to tie in the movement patterns and strength that you would like them to have as an, as an athlete versus what's happening in the studio for them. And that's a big bridge that needs to happen. Um, and one reason I can come, wanted to come on here is because I, I feel like there's just a few things that we can tie, tie in for practitioners like you and dance teachers that also need to have a better knowledge of what you, a practitioner needs and is going to ask of them.

So then the cueing that you're, that they're having inside the studio, what are, what are some that you've grown up kind of, actually, I don't know, what are ones that you've, that you've had growing up that are still around that, that probably need to change. And is there any ones that came out recently that you're thinking, oh, that one's crummy too? Yeah. So, or it could, or it could be better. Like I know the cues always change a little bit. Cues are always changing. And, um, we've talked a lot about this, that the external cues are always the best, right? If you can, if you can get someone to have a feeling or an image that creates a body movement, that's going to be more successful than if you're telling them anatomically what they need to do, because most people don't understand that.

Um, so dance has a lot of cues like that. In fact, there's not a lot of anatomical cues happening, but I feel like they're visual. And, uh, uh, dance teachers have passed down these cues or verbal cues that aren't necessarily, they're not actually sure what's happening inside of the body is my observation. And there are definitely dance teachers out there that do know what's going on. So I'm not going to put them all in that category, but I know that when I taught dance, when I was younger, I said the exact cues that my teachers told me. And I think that's just what happens. We just pass on this lineage of vocabulary that happens.

So, um, one thing that has changed for me now that I work in a different way with dancers is, uh, when we're talking about, um, abdominal pressure, uh, what I would say, what the cue I would use is fill, fill your belly with air. Um, maybe torso stiffness, uh, I think a bad cue, but might be is core control. Um, a dance teacher is going to say, pull up. That's all they're going to say. What are they going to pull up? Yeah, exactly. Pull up there. What they're talking about is, um, working with the diaphragm and the pelvic floor to come together. Um, they're talking about creating stability through the torso so that the hips can do their job, but their definition is pull up.

So we get that a lot. And then that kind of leads into, uh, maybe some visual stuff that's happening with dancers. They spend a lot of time looking in the mirror. And, um, I think you've experienced this with some of the dancers that I've referred to you in here. Um, we get them moving the way that they should be and their bodies are feeling great. And then they look in the mirror and they look at their belly and they try to suck their belly and to look skinny because that's what dancers want. And all of a sudden their pain is back. So, um, we have a lot of that happening inside of the studio where they're trying to make their body look like something particular, but it may not anatomically be exactly what should happen.

Mm-hmm. Um, so I don't know if you know, but there's a, there's an external cue in baseball and it's called a cup check. Okay. I feel like this may not apply to dancers. I know. I'm sure it applies. It's like, you make sure that like, it's a reminder to put your cup on because you might get hit, you know, like a cup check, like they hit. Anyways, um, so I don't know if anyone, everyone knows if I mentioned it that, but Allie works in here with me. Um, so she has her own business on the side, but so we're amongst the floor at the same time. Um, and you're right, there are mirrors in here, which I'm thinking now it's probably not great for dancers, but it's great for, great for me and probably for you to like, we can look at different angles of what they're doing around work or look around.

But there's that one that's that fun house mirror. You ever see that good mirror? Mm-hmm. Yes, definitely distorts you. Yeah. And, uh, she, she's referencing, there was, uh, one person in particular where, uh, she was, she was managing her at first. She had a, she had a knee issue. And then I took a look at her and we got her movements to improve. Actually, sorry, her pain reduced with the movement that she was painful in before. And then something I didn't realize because I don't come from that background of dance and aesthetics. And like, you can be fat as you want as a baseball player. No one's going to bother you, right?

You get a big, you get a big jersey on. Um, and then, so Allie came up and she just pulled her shirt, pulled the girl's shirt. And then the girl got really skinny again and her knee pain came back. Instantly. So I was like, what'd you do? And yeah. And I just said, I knew as soon as I pulled her shirt tight, she was going to be mimicking her dance wear, her leotard. And she was already looking in the mirror. So she, as soon as the shirt got tight, she pulled her belly in because she wanted to look a certain way in the mirror. And instantly her knee pain came back. You know, you were like, what?

Yeah. I know, right? Well, because at the time, like, like I was doing my exam and like stuff and then you just popped in and pulled her shirt. Like, what the hell? Like, I thought I had her movement okay. Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of challenges like that, I think, in getting a dancer back into the studio, as well as the range of motion that you were referring to earlier, working above a certain, above the average American flexibility or mobility. We have a lot of verbal cues that are happening that may not be productive inside of the dance studio. What's another one? Gosh, turnout from your hips.

So turnout means that they're going to turn their feet out towards the side. They're going to externally rotate their legs. And the ideal image, which is really just anatomically not possible for 95% of the world, is that their knees and their toes are 180 to each other. So they're facing straight out to the side. Like a duck? Like a duck. Yes, and if you, most people can think of a ballerina the way they walk with their feet turned out and they kind of flop from side to side. So I think that this cue, although in the heart of it is correct, like we do turn out from our hips. The muscles inside of our pelvis contribute to the external rotation of your legs.

It's a very bland cue that they walk up to a dancer and they put their hands on the outside of their glutes and they wrap them around to the back and they say, turn out from your hips. So we know that those muscles are working, but what they're actually trying to do is to get the dancer to do more rotation inside of the hip with the thigh bone and less rotation or not over rotate with their shin bones and feet. So that when they bend their knees, we would like for their knee to be tracking over their second toe, just like you would in parallel, which is extremely hard in turnout. And most people don't have that external rotation.

So their knee goes over their big toe or even inside of their big toe. And it's very hard to correct. So it's a very bland cue, I think. I'm just kind of curious, since good turnout seems nearly impossible for even a lot of dancers then. Because I know that with baseball, if you're throwing 90 at a high school level, like you got scouts looking at you, if you can just turn out and you post pictures of your turnout, are dance companies going to be like, oh my gosh, I got to see this girl? I think so. I mean, we're in the age of social media now. So I know I see a lot of my kids are little Insta-famous dancers at this point.

And they're using that as a way to get attention, for sure. I think that that ability with your hips is rare. I believe that it's still practiced this way, but I might be incorrect. But it definitely was practiced that in Russia, where they're known for their ballerinas, they would handpick them at two or three years old. And they would line up all the dancers or all the prospects, girls and boys, and they would have a doctor come in and look at their anatomy and say, you can do this, you can't, you can, you can't. As well as also, you're going to be a soccer player, you're going to be a wrestler, you're going to be this.

So they were picking their athletes based on their physical ability as a little kid or their potential. So they would look at their hips and say, ah, yes, your hips, the opening in your hips actually does face more towards the side. So you're going to be more likely to have the turnout that we're looking for as a dancer. I would not have those hips. No way. And we don't do that here in America. Anyone can be a dancer. And including myself, I probably did not have the body to have that extreme rotation. So the very small percentage of people that actually could have that happen, we idolize them in the dance world.

And it's just anatomically not possible. And it's not healthy for us. And I do wish that we would start thinking more about how we could use the physical ability that we have and less about trying to look like the next person standing next to you or those Russian ballerinas. Yeah. So then is that a, I'm guessing that's a problem with just the dance or arts world is the, well, you're kind of in like a world of aesthetics, right? Yeah, absolutely. Because you're for an audience. I guess baseball is for an audience too. Yeah, everything's for an audience, right? I mean, the stadiums are packed full and making billions of dollars.

I still don't understand why baseball tickets can be staying in a room, $10 at Petco Stadium in San Diego. But then a football one costs you like $180 for a nosebleed. Right? I don't understand how that's possible for dance either. I mean, the dancers aren't making any money and they're always having to fundraise. Because even the big companies don't have the audience members that you would at a football game or even baseball. Yeah. So actually, I know we've talked about this before as well. So since it sounds like dancers, they probably get injured a lot. They're always in some type of pain at some point, whether it be traumatic or not.

They don't make that much money. So who helps them? Who pays for them to be helped? No one. All the clinicians probably put their, like, I'm not going to listen to this. Yeah, probably. But wait, no. I can't pay the bills. No, it's true. But here's where dance is, I think, provides maybe more elite-minded athletes in this regard. Dancers are willing to do anything to get to the level of their craft that they desire. Before I got injured, I was a poor, starving student because I was living in San Francisco. Because that's where my companies that I was dancing with were. And that's where the desire was.

I was eating very cheap food. I was working two or three jobs. I was finding ways to do trade up the wazoo. So for my training, I was trading here and there. I was doing all these things. And I think that dancers still do that. I still have friends who are now 30, maybe even older, who are still just trying to push the mark to make enough money so they can pay to go see the chiropractor. So they can keep their body in tune so they can have the diet that they need and all those things. So there is a real desire for dancers, but there is not the financial backing there unless you get into a really big company.

There's a few of them in the U.S. And more in Europe, they're definitely treated differently in Europe. But here, it's not regarded in the same way, I guess. Do they actually get – do the companies give them health care a lot of times? Or is it just – or is it only a slight few? Not that I'm aware of. I could be wrong. But I do know that bigger companies like San Francisco Ballet, New York City Ballet, ABT, Houston Ballet, they have within – as a company member or as someone that they're paying, you do get certain benefits. But it's not traditional insurance as far as I know. But you will get a certain amount of PT visits that you can have or cross-training with a trainer, Pilates, gyrotonic, whatever it is.

So they do provide some care for you, but it's not within the traditional sense. Okay. Yeah, I was just curious because just from a business perspective, like I like helping people. It's great. But at the same time, like – so I've done a couple presentations for how young students should start a job and – or start to build their own clinic and so on. And one thing I try to emphasize is that make sure that you pick a population that has the means to pay for your services because insurance isn't getting better. They pay you pennies, sometimes literally pennies. I had a friend that actually sent me a picture of a check that was for three cents.

Oh, no. Yeah. It was crazy. So anyways, I guess as I consider this market and a market or a population of people, who the heck is – like what is the answer how to improve the health of a dancer? Because I'm not going to say I don't want to help a dancer, but I'm not going to keep the doors open if I help a dancer if they can't pay for it. Right. So here's where my business sense came in versus my artistic drive to help dancers. When I started training as a profession, as I started training clients as a profession, I thought, I can't work with dancers. They don't have any money because that's where I was coming from as a 20-something-year-old person who was trying to make this into a career.

It wasn't until a few years later that I realized as I got a student, a 14-year-old girl who was training at the local ballet studio, that the parents are willing to put whatever they can into their child to have them feel successful. And I think that as any parent would say, they want their child to succeed. Some parents are just like – I know there's baseball dads, baseball moms, I guess, but there's parents that are very pushy sometimes with their kids in their athletic sports. That happens with dancers. But there's also parents that just want their kid to be healthy, and they know how demanding dance is on the body.

So I would say that 80% of the dancers that I see in my full schedule is parents who know their kid is going to keep dancing, they're going to push them, and they want them to have the best health that they possibly can. So they come in weekly, and they do cross-training with me, and we work on a variety of things from flexibility and mobilization to strength and patterning. But when I realized that the business sense was in taking care of the kids, not the struggling artist adults, that's where I thought, ah, yes, this is working. And from a business sense, it does. Yeah. Actually, when you started talking about kids again, I was thinking the struggling artist versus the kids.

But – so then what about the struggling artist? I don't have an answer for the struggling artist yet. Well, because I'm thinking about, like, if you don't want dance to become extinct, like in baseball, like, you could – like, if you get lucky, you get a contract early, right? Right. Or you just sit in the minor leagues and they don't get paid crap, and I've heard a story about one of the people that I know that they were sleeping in someone's basement where there was a leak from the toilet upstairs leaking onto their bed, you know, and they live in poverty for, like, five years, just assuming they're going to – maybe you're going to make it, maybe you're not.

Right. And at the end of all, you burnt your early 20s and you have no education and no know-how to do anything else other than maybe to be a hitting coach. Right. So then how do you – I know you probably don't have an answer, but I'm just thinking it. I don't have an answer. I mean, that's where I lived for a while. And, you know, hindsight or just being grateful for whatever comes my way, I think having an injury was the best thing that I could possibly actually do because it forced me to look at the bigger picture and the bigger good of the world, not just what was happening in my world. But that's on a personal note.

So I don't have an answer for the struggling artists yet. I wish I did. I tried personally to do my part because that was me, and I have my little tender part towards those people who are trying to make their physical and emotional dreams come true. But back on the kids, I really feel like if we can start changing the way that they're thinking about their bodies, the way they're treating their bodies, and the way that they're training, maybe there's something that will change in the world as the way that they view the arts as we change what the kids are doing. So that's where my focus is. Okay.

And just observing you working with some of the kids, I've noticed that your cueing is still external, but it's very simple because if you explain too much to a kid, they'll just, like, not do it. What are some of the corrections that you've made with people? Maybe, like, the first time you had shown them certain things. And what are some ways you've developed the cues that you use? Well, I think with kids, I mean, depending on their age, I work with kids from 8 years old, I mean, up to adults, but probably 8 to 18 is my major come from right now. And with, like, the little kids, I was giving all these technical corrections years ago and trying to make everything perfect, and I realized they don't have the mental capacity yet to do this.

They just physically, they're 9 years old, they don't have that mental ability to absorb all of that. So, one of my go-to exercises to start with for body awareness and core stability is a bird dog. And I was starting with all these cues, and they were just fighting with me, right, left, moving their shoulders, hips, everything. And one time I just said, be Superman. And all of a sudden, their spine went straight, their heel went out, their hand went forward, and they made a fist, and they were Superman. And I was like, ah, okay. So, I think finding things that their imagery matches. Having a feeling over what it should look like.

Like, so, posture is a big thing for anyone, but for dancers especially. So, I always say that I want you to feel like you did a big sigh in your chest, like, ah. And then I want you to grow through your ponytail, because what happens is they lift their chin up to get taller. Like, when a little kid wants to be measured against the wall, and they lift their chin up, and they try to grow as tall as they can, they're actually shortening their spine, right, because they're bending backwards. So, if they were to drop their chin and grow through their ponytail, they would get that longer spine. So, I try to find little imaginary cues, I guess, that are going to create a feeling inside of their body.

And it depends on the student, too. If they like Barbies, you better learn a little bit about Barbies, okay? Because that's what you're going to be able to touch them with. So, then, when you first have these kids in, then, is there an initial conversation that you have? Where you kind of figure out what they like or what their imagery might? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Within the first session, I normally do an hour, or that's my preference, even with the little kids. Because I'm trying to figure out what their parents desire, what the kid desires, and what I desire. And it's always, that's what you're doing also when you have someone come in, right?

You're managing what they expect and what you know they need. So, giving them a little bit of what they want, a little bit of what the parent wants, and a little bit of what I want in the first session. On top of figuring out what they like in life, what kind of things do they like in school? Are they math-driven? Or do they just drive for recess? You know, are these the things that they're doing? What are they doing after school? Do they play any other sports? Are they solely in their one sport? So, do they like ice cream or do they like salty food? These are just small things. So, I'm constantly trying to keep the conversation going, even if it has nothing to do with movement.

Because if they like ice cream, I'm going to tell them, pretend you're squeezing that ice cream cone and you don't want it to let go. So, and that builds up trust with them if you remember what a couple small things were that they like. I would definitely, if I had the cue of squeeze ice cream, I would make sure that I would squeeze that ice cream so hard if it was vanilla bean. Because I wouldn't want any of it in my cone anymore. Yes. And that wouldn't be a good cue for me because I wouldn't want to squeeze my ice cream cone. I'd be like, no, don't break. Yeah, that's cool then. Yeah, definitely the, it's, you said, you said that you want to keep the conversation going with the kids.

Do they stop? Yes. Something that I've noticed is that kids generally, generally aren't great at conversation. And I've made it a little bit of my own personal goal to assist them to figure out how to have a conversation. I mean, they're kids and I'm not expecting them to have an adult conversation with me. But some of these kids I see twice a week and every time I'm asking them how their week was, what was their weekend, how was school, I'm remembering what they did, that they got an award. And I will ask and ask and ask and then they don't even say back like, well, how was your weekend? And I don't need to tell them how my weekend is.

I don't care if, I don't want them to know all my stuff. But there's a little bit of a rapport, I think, that I want these kids to learn how to have. So do you hit them with a ruler and say, ask me, ask me how my weekend was. No, I never say. Actually, I think there was one time that I said, and this is where you would ask me. But for the most part, I mean, lead by example, right? The more that I engage with them, the more they're going to trust me and the more they're going to show interest in engaging with me. But I think bigger than just maybe that's how I want society to be a little bit, is more engaging with each other.

I always tell the students on the first day and their parents that I'm going to ask them every time they come in, how does your body feel? And if I hear the word fine come out of your mouth, I'm going to send you out the door and have you come back in and you're going to try again. Because kids, fine, I feel okay. I'm like, that's not descriptive enough, okay? We're working on finessing your body, increasing all the things that you wanted to work on. So you need to learn how to describe your body, how you're feeling, and what's working for you. So sometimes for the first few weeks, it's a little bit rocky.

It's a little bit of me pulling out of them descriptive words. But towards the end of that month and on, my kids are now great. They come in and say, oh, we worked on this last week and I tried it. It didn't work for me. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Let's try it again. Or they'll say, you know, I noticed that my right quad feels a little bit tighter when I'm doing this. I think we should look at this and see if it's supposed to be that way. So that makes me happy because they are using their bodies as tools and they should be able to sharpen and finesse those tools always. So verbally, they need to be able to do that.

Now, this is going to be a little bit of a tangent, but I know that you've mentioned before that people, when you ask them their goals, when they come in, what are the most common few things that they might say? The most common two are flexibility and turnout. Those two. So I know that flexibility is, what do you think about flexibility? I think the definition or I think what we believe flexibility to be in the dance world is a little overrated. I always try to define, in my mind, what the difference between flexibility and mobility is. Flexibility being the range that your muscle can move or the stretch, quote, quote, that we can get in a muscle.

And mobility would be the range of motion inside of a joint under control. So I have a lot of dancers, especially young ones, that they sit in, they call them super split. So they put their feet up on a chair in front and behind, and then they try to push their crotch down to the floor. And they sit there for minutes at a time, and people are pushing on them. Are they crying? Oh, they're crying sometimes. And that's not how I would choose to do it, but this is something we'll work on changing in the dance world. But they are super flexible. They can kick their head. They can pull their leg behind their head in some instances, but they can't hold their leg up there.

They can't use the strength and mobilization inside of their hip to get their leg with control somewhere in space. So my goal is to bring flexibility and strength together in a balance. And that's, for me, what mobilization is when we're talking about using it in the hip, especially as a dancer. So I really, really try to make sure that they understand there is a difference as a dancer between flexibility and mobility. And I would rather you have more mobility than more than flexibility. Do you think they usually have more mobility or flexibility typically? I think they have more flexibility. Okay.

What are some easy things that they could do if there's any dancers listening? What are some easy things they can do to improve their mobility over flexibility? Core stabilization, 100%. So if you doctors are getting anyone in there who has hip stuff, I always look at their core stabilization first, right? So if their core is stabilized, then their ball and socket joints are going to be able to work more with finesse. So they're going to be more articulate. I think that the way that they stretch needs to change. I have a couple stretches that I always make sure that they start applying with quad and psoas, with the way they stretch their hamstrings.

It has more to do with how they place their torso in a stretch as opposed to like when you're stretching your hamstrings. Even if you're in the split, so one leg's in front and behind you, but you're laying over your front leg, you're taking some of the pull out of what would be stretching maybe your hip flexor, psoas, quad. And if you center your body up in the middle of your two split legs and you really focus on where your core is placed, you're going to get a deeper stretch into your psoas than you would folding forward. And so these small things, I realize dancers in general don't have. They also just hold their leg towards them when they're whatever part of the stretch they're doing.

They tend to just hold a stretch as long as possible. And I think that there's better ways, maybe a little bit of pulsation, activation. I would rather see an active stretch than a passive stretch. And I try to point those out to them, how they could be actively stretching as opposed to passively stretching. So then do you have videos on this? I do have some videos on this. Where are they? I do have some videos on this. I have some videos on Instagram at Align Fitness by Allie. I have some videos on YouTube, Align Fitness by Allie. And I actually did create and am continuing to put out content with some online courses that are geared towards dancers for this very purpose that can't come in and see me.

I started realizing, well, as I was getting more and more direct messages, emails, people asking me, what stretches can I do? How do I improve my turnout? I can't come in and see you. I live in Germany. I live here. I decided that I was going to create some content that was going to be available for them to purchase. And it was going to be me giving exactly what I would do for a student who comes in and sees me to improve their turnout. And I'm working on one on flexibility right now. So that's been great to be able to say, here, go look here and give this a try. And I'm getting some good feedback from it, which makes me very happy that it's working on the online platform.

Well, so since that you work with people in person, you have a good response in the first time. There's probably a lot of things that you can see when they're actually moving. You can't really see it online if they're doing their stuff kind of alone. So is there is there hindrances of that or have you thought, I don't know, ways maybe you can improve that to make it more simulation of you in person? Or is there just going to be a disconnect? I mean, unfortunately, I feel like there's a little bit of a disconnect. I think that everyone who's listening can say, would they rather give some advice over the phone?

Or would they or would they rather see someone in person if they're going to make the biggest difference? And I think the answer is see them in person. But what I've what I've tried to do is take the most common things that I see and give I don't want to say generic cues, but cues that are going to help them find a better position, a better movement than what they have before. Is it going to be perfect? No, definitely not. And I actually have a student who bought my course and then they were here visiting on a vacation and they came in and saw me and she knew all the exercises and she showed them to me.

And I was very impressed and happy with what she had done. But when I could get my hands on her and make the tiny corrections for her body, I mean, it was night and day. And she said, oh, my gosh, I thought I got so much out of your course online, but I didn't realize how much more I could get being here in person. I was like, yeah, of course. So there is a disconnect, but I hope to get better and better. And, you know, there's people like you. You have stuff online also, and you're really good at giving your cues and getting results with certain exercises. The progression that you've laid out.

So my goal is just to keep learning and improving how I'm going about this. And that comes from watching people like you and other practitioners who are out there doing their online thing. I just learned by example, right? Yeah. I kind of wish, too, that like I know mine are I wouldn't say they're complicated. Like they're a step-by-step because people have asked for step-by-step. But at the same time, like let's just say these dancers, like if they're – if you want to work on core stuff, just – I feel like I would just have them carry heavy stuff around, you know? Like just something that's going to create some like inherent stiffness and not make it tough.

But again, I'm just thinking about – and you mentioned my online content. There's just a lot of videos to accomplish the thing, which could be really simple. And these people don't need as many things as they might in there. But there's certain things that work for certain people and not for others. So to include them all and they'd have to do a little bit of troubleshooting, I guess it's not exactly step-by-step, is it? Well, I don't know if anything's ever really step-by-step. Yeah. I don't know. My grievances with people doing stuff online or at least going through stuff is they want things extremely simple.

And I think it can be broken down in a simple way. But there can't be zero thought whatsoever. Like you have to do something. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, and I mean that kind of brings up if you're ever working with a dancer. You talked about carrying something heavy and I'm thinking back to when I was under the impression that if I lifted a weight, I was going to bulk. Yeah. Okay. Oh, I want to slap myself for thinking that. I always tell people, I'm like, if you're going to bulk, you're insulting me because I lift at least – I lift a couple days a week, if I'm lucky, three, and I lift heavier than you and you're going to be a super freak?

Yeah. And get super huge? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So that's a myth that's very common around dancers. So if you work with them, please, please, please give them whatever evidence you have and can that lifting is going to support them as a dancer and support the physique that they want, not hinder it. You know, are there some dancers right now that you know of that are open about lifting and are not bulky? Yeah. Ones that they would consider like, oh, it's my idol. Gosh, I wish that there was, but I don't want to call people out because I'm not 100% sure. Yeah. So I don't want to have to come back on here and – That should be on your Instagram thing.

Yes, it should. Yeah. That's a hard one. It should. And I will start looking at that because I do know that there are some companies, not in the U.S., but there are some companies that are starting to put in more cross-training like an athlete, not like a dancer, like an actual athlete. And they're having great results. So that was a great idea. I should definitely start putting some of that information out there. And there are some people across the U.S. that I know of that are starting to – PTs and coaches and stuff that are on the same train of thought as I am. And I really wish, really, really, that I had had this knowledge when I was in high school and training my body as opposed to after I got injured because I do think it would have made a huge difference.

But practitioners, you have to know that you're going to have that bias in their mind that they can't carry things heavy, they can't lift, can't squat. So that is something you're going to run into, body image, and they don't want to lift. Okay, so a lot of it seems like it revolves around body image that are going to be there. Yeah. Is there anything else that dancers will usually – if you get in the mind of a dancer, like when you're saying, we should do this, they're like, nope, I don't want to do that because of this reason? Yeah, they're hesitant to do cardio, not because they don't need cardio, but they've just been told that everything's going to bulk their muscles.

They don't want to run. They don't want to bike, which is silly. They don't want to swim because they're going to get big shoulders. How are they going to be kids? Right? Can they throw sand? Can they make a sandcastle? Yeah, that might bulk their fingertips though. I think that just anything around body image, what they eat, unfortunately, dancers don't have the best knowledge of nutrition in general. Again, there's people who do, but it drives me a little bit crazy to see the care that athletes in any sports are making. And as I work, I have a couple athletes who are getting ready to – they're Olympic hopefuls for the next couple years, and they take so much care in their nutrition.

And these dancers are counting calories, and they're not accounting for how much they're burning. They're not accounting for the focus that they need, the fat intake that they need. My biggest pet peeve is for people who eat a bunch of bread or carbs, processed carbs, and they're just counting calories. Like pixie sticks? Yes. Yes, that comes into – he's referring to – I told Sebastian that we, as a competition when you're younger, these days when you would go and compete are brutal. They're super long, and they're in a convention center, and there's hundreds, maybe thousands of kids. And the parents will give their kids pixie sticks to give them energy all throughout the day.

And they have those gigantic ones that are just – I mean, it's probably like half a pound of sugar in the gigantic pixie stick. And that's what they give their kids for energy, and I just – I can't. Wait, so I think the big problem with that is those big pixie sticks are made of plastic. Oh, that is. That's a big problem. That's a big straw. Straws are outlawed. Yes, no more straws. But those little ones are paper. So they're happier for the earth. Yeah. Okay, so little pixie sticks are fine. Yeah, so body image, it's a big thing for dancers. Okay, yeah, good consideration. I know that I usually – I don't always get to all these points on people, and obviously you can – in their first interaction.

But I always think that I tend to learn more about them as I go through a handful of sessions. Because I don't always – like, I know that when I meet someone, I may not reveal everything that I want to reveal to them. But as you start to get to know them, you start to loosen up a little bit. Yeah. Is there anything that we didn't cover on here that you think we should cover to change the dance world? No, I really do think one of the biggest things is that dancers need to start thinking of themselves as athletes. And part of that is my responsibility as a trainer and your responsibility as their potential practitioner.

And then the other part is their responsibility. But we're the adults. We're the ones that hopefully have a little bit more information and are constantly searching out current research for athletes. And we have to share that information with their parents and with the kids. And we have to get them to start treating their bodies as athletes, not as dancers. So – I guess the last part of that, I think that – so you said trainer, medical, parents. What do you think – what do they call it? Coaches? Teachers? Teachers. What do you – what are the teachers' part in this? Oh, the teachers definitely have a big part.

I think that teachers are still kind of in this little bubble that what they do is only in the studio. And sometimes there's a little bit of fear, I find, with elite dancers and their teachers or trainers within the dance world that they don't want other people to be training their dancer. And that's a fair thing because it's – there's so much work that's going into making a kid's body work the way it needs to and to be at the level it does. But we all know that it takes – it takes a village to raise a kid. So it takes someone who knows nutrition and cross-training and flexibility and strengthening and then dance technique and mental health.

All these kids should be having some type of dance psychology, mental assistance as they start to get into more of their training. So when a dance teacher thinks that they can provide the only training that this kid needs, I think that's a flawed thought. I would never assume that I'm everything a kid needs. There's so many areas that need to be covered. And I think that goes for all sports in general. But dance teachers need to stop thinking they're the only one who can help their kid. We all can – there's lots of things that need to be added into this. Yeah. We see that in different sports too.

Yeah. I think some sports are more advanced on it and other ones aren't. Yeah. Pickleball. I don't know a pickleball coach. Hmm. I don't know a pickle – you should have a pickleball coach on here. I don't think either is a pickleball coach. It's a new – it's the new rage. Yeah. But it's for people that like they've – I think they've – it's like recreational. It's like there are people who have played tennis or like a racket sport. Right. And then they don't want to move as much so they get really close to the net and they just play pickleball. Yeah. But I actually – I know quite a few people that just like playing pickleball.

Really? And maybe it's because you don't have to run around as much. But I feel like a country like China could be really good at pickleball. Really? I bet – what if it comes into the Olympics? Oh, I don't know. I don't know about that. I think that – didn't like surfing get in the Olympics and – Did it? I think BMX and snowboarding – or snowboarding already is. But I thought surfing did. And I personally – and I don't know anything about this. I feel like the X Games is so popular that it would be useful for the Olympics as a business to absorb the audience. Yeah, for sure. So if the audience is big, then they'll follow and then sponsorship payments and so on because this all goes around with money.

That's my thought though. But I don't – don't pickleball has a TV audience yet. So I don't think we're going to get there. Okay. One day we'll get there and we're going to come back to this podcast and remember this. But on the Olympic note, if BMX is going to be in there and pickleball has the potential, then I think dance does too. So – It doesn't – well, they have gymnastics. That's my point. Ice dancing. They have gymnastics. They have artistic things in the Olympics. So I'm just throwing it out there that it should be in the Olympics. It's very physically demanding. Yeah. And it would be scorable.

So – I still have a very hard time with understanding the scores that are not concrete. Like basketball, I know who won. Right. I have no idea, like, why this ice dancer is better than the other one. As a viewer, like, I think it's cool. Yeah. But I don't think they're any better. And, like, how can you account for the person's bias that's the judge? Yeah. I have no idea. So, I mean, I can imagine a little bit as I know more about dance and as I watch these dance competition shows on TV, there's many things that I do see that I don't think the average person sees. But at the same time, sometimes I'm like, wait, how did they get a higher score than that person?

And it comes down to personal preference. So, that happens. I'm sure that happens in the Olympics as much as they don't want it to. Hopefully, the Olympic Association isn't going to come after you for this one. Right. Yeah. I already said the disclaimer was, I have no idea. Yeah. I think people are – Personal opinion. They'll probably come after Joe Rogan first, I'm sure, for different things. Okay, great. I didn't think I'm small games. You're second on the list. Yeah. I'm definitely second. Yeah. How can everyone reach you? Yeah, so I have a big presence on Instagram and also my website is Align Fitness by Allie.

A-L-I-G-N Fitness by Allie. How do you spell Allie? Allie. A-L-L-I-E. No Y. No single I. No E-Y. Yeah, so those are probably the best ways to get me, my website or on Instagram. And you guys can find all my contact information. I am always looking to network with different practitioners because I – as much as my goal is for dancers to be cross-training, I want them to be more active in seeking out care. And that means that I get to start having a network of people that I feel comfortable with referring. So, you know, that's one of my goals too. Just throwing it out there to you guys. All right, you heard everybody who is a go-getter email Allie.

If you didn't – did you provide your email? My email is Allie at Align Fitness by Allie.com. There it is. Super easy. When I've gone into the schools or talked to young docs about, like, how to build a business, just go hustle. Shit. Like, everyone on this podcast right now, if you're struggling, I don't think – Allie, you know anyone in Minnesota? Nope. Okay. Whoever's in Minnesota needs the email. I do know dancers in Minnesota. Well, there you go. So, if you guys are struggling at all, then you need to hustle and make an initiation to contact somebody. So, that's my business proposition today.

I like it. Gosh, you're getting so many emails. Okay. I hope so. I hope I can come on and say that I got tons of emails from people who are go-getters. After we started talking about Pickleball, I would just turn this thing off. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks for being on, and, yeah, I think that's all I have. Thank you. This was great. Cool. Thanks, Allie, for being on. That was great. And if you guys are looking for her, I will provide all of her contact information in the show notes that you can go on to p2sportscare.com. There's a search bar right in the main screen. Just type up Allie, A-L-L-I-E, or Christian Sen with an E-N at the end, and you'll find the show notes for this.

I really do mean it. Email. Blaster. I want you to flood her email box with as many emails as you can as a joke because it would be fun. But realistically, though, like I said in the interview is that if you're willing to meet people, a lot of times a lot of good things come from it. So she's a good person to know. She does a good job with the dancers that she sees. And obviously, there's certain skill sets such as clinical-based stuff that she can't really do. And she works in the office with me, but at the same time, I can't service people in Minnesota. So I think you guys should definitely reach out to her.

So thanks again for listening. And thank you for reviewing the podcast. If you haven't already, please do so. And share it with a friend. Share it with another classmate or another clinician that you talk to about this type of stuff, but they haven't listened to the podcast yet. So I feel like I've learned a lot over the years of doing this. So I'm hoping you guys do too. Talk to you next week.