Why chronic pain often comes from somewhere else

At what point did you actually get to that point of self-reflection where you're like, I'm just going to change to be myself? Was there a certain thing that came about? That's a really good question. I mean, I think it's happened in phases. Honestly, it started to happen the more I started to get pushback from people, right? Because if you're going to put your heart out there to the universe and you're going to try to do something, people ain't going to like it because a lot of them were threatened by that. So the more I got haters and the more I got trolls, I said to myself, dude, I'm doing something right here.

This is awesome, right? You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey everyone, it's Dr. Sebastian's also again on the mic today. And we are the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for being part of the movement movement. Now, we have on a guest today, and that was a clip from the interview of Dr. Perry Nicholson from StopChasingPain.com. And if you're in the healthcare field, especially rehab field, you've probably heard of him before.

So he's pretty well known now. And if you go on Instagram, he's got like, I think about 80,000 followers. It's quite a bit for healthcare anyways. He also presents on the rock tape circuit as well. So he's got a great little bit of information to share to us today. And actually, it's funny. This interview went a little bit different than I thought it would. And you see about 20 minutes in, we get a little Oprah style in there, which is cool. You know, like, and I think working with Perry and going with Perry on this interview is, I told him, I didn't know exactly what we're going to talk about.

I wrote some notes down. But for the most part, it was, I like to go where the conversation takes us. And Perry's just an interesting guy. And if you think about how he came to be presenting, how he's presenting, how he hit the information now that he's hitting, it's just interesting. And I think part of that in developing us as clinicians and also developing our mindset as patients, sometimes it is taking that journey. And Perry takes us through that journey today. As well as we'll get to a lot of other clinical bits. So if you're looking for those tips, they'll be in there. If you're patients, he speaks in a very, I don't want to say simple way.

It sounds demeaning. But for the most part, he makes it easy to understand. So I think you're going to get a lot from this. Now, if you guys are looking for him again, it's stopchasingpain.com. And I will put all the links in the show notes. And before we get in the interview, I'm going to share a little bit of a story of an idea, a great idea, I think, that I have. All right, so I got this million-dollar idea, I believe. And if you're a teacher, there's no doubt that you actually go through the last probably 30 days of your school year and start marking and checking the calendar dates off. So I was thinking, because I definitely got some teachers that come in and see me, and they're all just like, you know what, how many more days?

How many more days is it now? They're like, oh, 14 days. Oh, nine days. It's like they know. They totally know. So I started thinking. I'm like, you know, the only thing I really counted down to was Christmas back in the day. And we did it without advent calendars. I'm like, you know what you guys should do? You should make an advent calendar 30 days or 29 days until the end of school. And it would be obviously unique to each school because everyone's a little bit different. But I'm like, look, inside you got these little chocolates. Maybe put a little rum balls in there. You know, maybe like a little, one of those little baby shots, you know, not to drink it at school, obviously, because you can't do that kind of stuff.

But maybe, maybe take it out in the parking lot. Get a little silly, you know, whatever. But anyways, I thought these advent calendars would be kind of a cool idea that every teacher that I've told, they're like, that's a, that's, I like that. That's a great idea. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to make it. You can have it. Advent calendar created by teachers for teachers, obviously, within your parameters of what your school is going to allow. But I think right there, that gets people excited. It gets teachers excited. So, if you guys want that million dollar idea, go ahead and hit that up.

And, you know, the funny thing about advent calendars, too, is that it didn't seem to matter how old the chocolate was. I mean, that thing could be, like, six months old, and you're good. So, you can put probably McDonald's toys in there and still work out the excitement's opening thing and seeing what's on the side and realizing that you're just one more day closer to not working for the summer. There you go. How about that idea? Now, into the interview. Okay, everyone, welcome on the doc. Doc, Perry Nicholson. Nicholston. Yeah, you got it. S-T-O-N. Yeah, a little different. How many times have you been called Nicholson?

Oh, a lot. I just let it flow, man, whatever. Because nobody calls me that, really. They always call me Perry or Doc Perry. And when I'm really in big trouble, brother, I get John, because my first legal name is John. My middle name is Perry. So, like, I know when I hear the word John from my wife, uh-oh, I messed up. How does one actually go from taking their first name or taking their middle name as their first name? Well, my parents did that, you know, because John—and I love it. Because it so fits me. You know, John is—nothing wrong with the name. I mean, it's a great name. I mean, so many people have it.

That's the point, is that Perry was different. Perry was unique, I like to think. And it really ties home to how I developed as a human being, because the thing I teach right now is that one of the keys to your success is to be yourself. And to be yourself, you have to be different, because what that means is you're not like anybody else, right? I mean, because you're different than somebody else. And as soon as you try to be like everybody else, usually you find in the long run that you're not as happy, first of all. So it fit well for me because, why I like it, it's just freaking different. And that's actually one of the biggest keys to success is to not be like everybody else, be different, a.k.a. be yourself.

Well, I can imagine there's going to be a lot of fashion trends that are going to start out of New Jersey now, so. Yeah, yeah. It's the mecca for that. Well, so I thought I'd frame a little bit before we actually go forward of the listenership to know—actually, you speak in very simple terms anyway, so you'll probably speak well to everybody. But there's young clinicians as well as, I think—let's go with advanced patients, advanced knowledge patients versus fundamentals. I feel like on a different podcast, I can go through very, very basic stuff with them. But let's get some goldmine out of you, and let's get all the good stuff.

Okay. Well, maybe I'll get a nugget or two out of there. I'll just make some shit up. I'm— But, you know, hopefully I can curse because I just did. Well, I think the first thing I wanted to personally ask you was that I was actually looking through your YouTube videos the other day, and I noticed that you did like 258 videos, and a lot of them were a long time ago. Yeah. In the beginning, I did a lot more stuff with YouTube than I do now. I do a little bit on there, yeah, but more in the beginning. So how did you actually pick your introductory songs? Well, I have a—I'm on Prada. I'm going to be 52 years old at the end of this month, man.

So, you know, I grew up in the 70s and 80s. When you throw some tunes on that are like a little bit of a disco era, late 70s, early 80s, and then I got into some hair metal, of course. That's how I roll, and it's just a piece of who I am, and I thought it would be different, you know? Like, you roll in there, and you're like, what is this, right? And then it kind of pulls you in as you go. So that's how that came about, right? And I was doing YouTube videos kind of early on, a lot of times before it really exploded, you know? So I was—I didn't want to do it like everybody else either. And my early videos would start with, like, you know, some of the cool music, right?

And then I'd throw, like, an inspirational quote up there or something, and then I'd roll into my things. But social media and the dynamics of things have changed a lot since then. And, you know, nowadays it's kind of funny. Like, somebody would see that, and then they may just like, ah, I'm done already. They want to get right into it. It's really hard to kind of pinpoint what people—how they like to view information because it's different for everybody. It used to be where it would be, you know, like, give me the meat of it, man. And, like, you've got, like, five seconds to impress me, and then a minute or two, and then I'm done.

Now long format is really coming back. So people are tuning in to shows that are, like, 45 minutes at least or a couple of hours, hence, like, Joe Rogan. So it's interesting how the dynamic of learning has changed over the years. And you need to keep that stuff in mind as well when you're dealing—when you teach, like, when I teach workshops all over the world. And then when you're dealing with a living, breathing human being that's standing right in front of you as well. So it's kind of cool, yeah. Why do you think it's going back, actually? Because I would assume that it's only going to get shorter.

But I actually— I think people are hungry for great, great content. And when they see it and they have their control over it, they eat it up. Because we're used to going into school and sitting into school, and you have to listen to the shit that they're going to tell you that you have to listen to or see, and you have no control over it. And you just—most of the time, you're like, whew, when can I get out of this thing, right? And it's really by the dynamic of the teacher, right? Because it can be great information. But information in and of itself is inherently meaningless. It doesn't mean squat.

It's the meaning that you take behind it, and very often the meaning that you take behind it, if it's a subject that maybe you're not familiar with, is how it's delivered by the teacher, by the environment. And if you can gravitate towards somebody, right? Like, I could just be pulled into watching something because I like the way this person teaches. I like their tone of their voice. I like their vibe. And that's really important in relationship to information because I could get person A teaching me the exact same information as person B. But I'll get something completely different out of it because it's a different experience.

They're bringing their own story to it, their own history. So it's not about the information. That's one of the key things about learning. Information I can get anywhere. I want that experience. I want that interaction. And maybe you'll say something one way, and you're really nice, and you're quiet, but maybe I'll say it, and I'm going to be loud and boisterous, and I'm going to be very animated, and I'm going to be all over the place. And then you're like, holy cow, I mean, that was a great experience. Meanwhile, I told you the exact same thing. Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, actually, how did you develop your public speaking style?

Because actually, that's one thing I noticed on YouTube videos, especially those early ones. There's only one that had some thumbs down. But for the most part, it was unanimous, like, I like this dude. Like, there's something about your presenting style that people just like you. Well, first of all, you've got to be yourself. You have to be authentic and not try to copy somebody else. I've tried to do that in the past where, you know, this is how you do public speaking. This is how you do a video. This is how you do with the audience. I'm like, forget that, man. That's too much thinking. Just be comfortable with who you are.

Stop thinking about yourself. Think about the audience that you're with. Because people can spot if you're authentic, quick, fast, and in a hurry, right? Or is this guy, like, following some format or script? Like, they'll say, never, ever turn your back to the audience. Oh, yeah? Watch me. I'm going to be all over the damn place, right? I'm never on the podium. I'm always very animated. I get down in there. And honestly, I only got to that point by really, really sucking a lot in the beginning because I was mortified, I mean, deathly afraid of public speaking in the beginning because I'm a very innately kind of introverted, shy person.

And when I was younger, I had a lot of social anxiety, and I didn't like myself very much because I was heavy, you know, I had glasses, I was shy, got picked on a lot. So I felt like I couldn't be me because nobody liked me, you know what I mean? So then you change who and how you are to try to fit in as part of the social norm and the social dynamic, which is even worse today with social media. So I started speaking because it really upset me that it was frightening me so much. And I said, I've got to get over it, right? And it was hard. I'm not lying. And I did it, and I was like awful, right, by my own standards.

But I said, you know what? I'm going to keep going because maybe the next time I'll be just a little bit less awful. And then you get to where you want to go, right, to where you need to be. And then I became much more comfortable as I went along, and that's because you actually have to put yourself out there. And I learned early on, but it's really hard to embrace it, is that the faster you make mistakes, the quicker you learn than everyone else. But in order to make mistakes, you have to open up your heart, you've got to open up your soul, and you've got to take the hits, you've got to take the cuts.

And that's not easy. We all know this. We all know it. But it's very different when you've got to actually walk that path, and they have to come to a point of self-love, self-embrace, and being okay with that. And then when you get to the point when you realize that P.T. Barnum, the guy who did the circus stuff, said nobody ever made a difference by being like everyone else. And you think about that for a minute. That's the key, right? And once you can get to that point, it's like things just start happening. It's like the universe has been waiting, and it says, dude, it's about time you figured this stuff out.

It's nice to have you, because that's exactly how it works. So, you know, for me, it's been a continual journey and a lesson learned every time I get up and I talk. It's interesting. It's always refreshing to see when people seem like they've figured it out and they're doing really well, that they struggle through the same stuff, you know. Although this is going through, it seems like an Oprah interview style. I know we'll get into clinical later. At what point— Well, that's actually a good thing that this is coming first, because your clinical is only going to go as far as the shit I'm talking about right now.

Right. At what point did you actually get to that point of self-reflection where you're like, yeah, I'm just going to change to be myself? Was there a certain thing that came about? That's a really good question. I mean, I think it's happened in phases. Honestly, it started to happen the more I started to get pushback from people, right? Because if you're going to put your heart out there to the universe and you're going to try to do something, people ain't going to like it. Because a lot of them were threatened by that. So the more I got haters and the more I got trolls, I said to myself, dude, I'm doing something right here.

This is awesome, right? Those people are going to be scared away by that. I look at it as like the universe is saying, I'm going to throw some stuff your way, man. I want to see how bad you want it. And then you push yourself through to the other side. And for me, it was also happen like very often things in life, which you're going to find in a clinical standpoint through great physical or mental suffering or trauma in your life. You know, I had to battle cancer about 15 years ago. And, you know, that brought back a lot of memories of my own father dying when I was a teenager. And, you know, when you have that diagnosis and you come through it, you know, better than anybody being in this world, you see things differently.

And I did, but then like a lot of people, you're good that way for a little while and then you kind of go back to your other stuff until life comes calm again and then it punches you again. And then I got really sick about seven years, five years ago and developed a lot of kind of autoimmune functional stuff going on for me. That was a culmination of a lot of different stuff. And that took me out of the knees and was a very humbling experience overall, which helped me to be who I am today as a clinician, honestly. And when I came through that, that was like the second hit. Like, OK, now I know I've got to let it go.

And I know I'm being a little Oprah-esque here, but. She was popular for a reason. Your body, your body knows when you're not who you're supposed to be. Your body knows when you're not embracing yourself. And I lived that way for many years, trying to be a different type of person or be a pleaser like that. And that's stressful, man. It's nonstop stress. And stress is the biggest effect of your health without question. And it's not just the stress of a traumatic situation. It's the daily stress. So if you're not living your authentic self and you don't underlying really trust yourself or you like yourself, that shit is going to hit your biology at some point in time.

And when you see chronic pain, people are not, you see difficult, hard-to-fix cases where major things have been ruled out, like red flag stuff. And I know you're not going to die, but you feel like you're going to die. You've got to go deep for that kind of stuff because that is the stuff that matters. And you're never going to get to that point where you can get well if you're stuck in an environment where you became ill. But one of the things I say is you cannot get well in the same environment you became ill with that. That's your physical environment that you're in. But your physical environment is dictated by your mental environment because you take in sensory input from your environment.

And the sensory input doesn't mean shit either until you put it into a context of your own life experience. That's why you can see one thing and you will laugh. I'll see it and I'll cry. It's not the event. It's how the person responds to the event. So it all comes back like the stuff that we were talking about before where we start to blame our skill set. We start to blame our technique or we blame the patient. And very often it's a non-conscious, subconscious thing for this person's body where their nervous system is just not ready to receive what you're trying to give it. And they just don't know it yet.

And so they got to get out of their own way, but they don't know that they're in their own way. Do you know what I mean? That's why it matters. Thanks for sharing your personal stuff, by the way. That was really cool. You're welcome. I always do that because I want people to know that I'm a human being, too. We're all human beings. We're in this together. And listen, the people that look like they have their stuff together the most, they have suffering and they have trauma. And that's another thing that we see one context of somebody's life and what they're doing where they're really, really good.

Like, oh, my gosh, this guy is so popular on Facebook. This guy is like the best public speaker I've ever seen. He is the best athlete I've ever seen. That's one context of their life. You've got all these other areas where they're probably dealing with a lot of discomfort or misery or suffering that you don't see. And you immediately think, then, why is everybody else good and I'm a mess? Well, the dirty little secret is, brother, everybody's a mess. You can't get away from it. Right? So that's the one thing that we need to keep in mind. And then that how you view the context of everybody else's life, that's a stressor for you.

Right? Yeah. Well, did you clinically when working with people, do you find that are they reluctant to? Do they understand this when you're saying that they're kind of in their own way but they don't know it? Or is there a conversation that needs to happen? Or do you need to reveal something about you to let them reveal something about them and then you have this deep conversation? Or how does that go? Because it seems like it's a hard thing to get on the first visit. It is. That's a very good question. It is, but it isn't. And I'm going to tell you why I have the luxury of being ahead of the game when it comes to that.

Because with how I practice and the way that I've done things and designed my clinical thing, I'm not the first person you see when you're hurt. I'm the last person. So when you come in through a door, for me, you've been through everything. And you've had all the tests done. You've seen all the experts. You've tried this. You've tried that. And then either, one, it didn't help. Or, two, it helped, but it stopped helping. Or you can't get any answers. For me, they're at a point where they're ready to embrace just about anything. And you've heard of me and you're like, well, this guy sounds a little batshit crazy, but I've tried everything else.

And then that's when I can talk about my crazy shit path or seeing unicorns. Because that's just who I am and that's how I talk. It doesn't mean I'm less serious or oriented towards helping you. But I like to talk about possibility and hope and looking at things in a different way. When you reach me, I know that you're ready. Like, okay, I know you're serious about getting well. And it's very simple for me. I'm like, listen, my job is actually quite easy. Because if you've tried everything over here in bucket A, the last thing I'm going to do is anything in bucket A. Because if you needed bucket A, you wouldn't be standing in front of me asking me for help.

I have to look at a different thing, right? So that, first and foremost, is big. It's a little more difficult when you're working in a clinical setting and maybe you're in a PT office or a chiro office. You get somebody to come in to you with regular back pain type of thing. You might not have this conversation with every client. Because sometimes, listen, I mean, healthcare is just straightforward. I mean, if you hurt, I'm going to rub your knee. Your knee feels better. I mean, that's awesome, right? Or if your back needs some manipulation, I'm going to do that. And you're like, hey, it's all gone.

I'm great. That's perfect. I mean, that's wonderful. But if you get into that world where we're finding now what these chronic diseases, lifestyle diseases, autoimmune stuff, all these things that we just can't get answers for, then that's when you have to go a different way. Then here's A, let me do B, and then you get C. That's a linear type of thinking, okay? A, B, C. Pain and healthcare is nonlinear. That means that somebody can come in with A, and then all of a sudden their pain is O, C. It's not B. Or they'll come in with A, and I'll do B. And they're like, holy hell, I don't know what you did, but you fixed my shoulder and my knee and my back just when you did my little finger.

Like, that's nonlinear type stuff. That's how the body and biology responds. So the context for me is that not everybody is ready to have this conversation or they're going to be the patient that I'll be dealing with for here. But I also put it in perspective to people, like in the beginning, I'll say, here's what I think you have. I don't know if what I'm going to do is going to work because I have to see how your body is going to react to it. But I'm going to give you my first approach to what your body is telling me, and then we'll see what happens, assuming that you do your share as well because we're in this together.

If I do it alone, you ain't going to get there. If we do it together, you still might not get there if we do it together. But if we're together, we stand a hell of a lot better chance on getting there. That you lay out right from the get-go so you don't fall on the sword yourself because of what you did didn't work because it's never going to work if you're in it alone, right? Care is a bi-directional thing. It has to go both ways. And one of the things that I ask my clients in the beginning is I'm like, okay, well, why are you here? And it's like, I want to get out of pain. Okay, why do you want to get out of pain?

I got to dig, man. I got to find that trigger for that because it's not just about getting rid of the pain. You got to find out why and why it's different for everybody. And then I'm going to say, okay, well, because I want to bend over and pick up my kids without the pain. Bingo. Then I ask them, how bad do you want that? I can imagine that you're just right in front. I wait to get the answer. I'm going to get one because I'm going to say it and I'm not going to say anything else. And it's going to make them feel really uncomfortable because silence does that. And then when I get the answer, and the answer I better get is I want it really, really bad.

Because if I don't get that answer, I didn't find your hot button yet. Does that make sense? And yes, I'm going to be right in front of you. I'm going to stare you right in the face, but I'm going to put you on a level where you're not under threat. I'm not going to stand over you. I'm not going to be domineering. I'm going to come down on your level and relate to you as a human being because I need to have you with me. It can't be doctor up here, white coat, what I say goes, bullshit. I need both of us together on the same level because we're both human beings, hopefully trying to go after the same goal for you.

Does that make sense? Not a lot of doctors or therapists can get to that point because they're worried about, you know, when they say something that they won't like or, you know, I'm not sure if they want to pay cash for my stuff. It's because you don't believe in yourself. You've got to drive the bus, man. You're driving the bus, okay? And patients respect that. But they're looking to poke you just to see, I mean, how good is this person in guiding me to my end destination? I mean, you know, if you're like wishy-washy or whatever, what that does to your patient is the biggest stressor for your brain.

The biggest stressor for your brain that kicks your ass all the time is one thing. Uncertainty. So if I'm not certain that you're certain of yourself or if I'm not certain that this dude knows where he wants to go, but he's also certain that he wants me to be certain. Do you understand? That can make a huge difference in your level of care because uncertainty is one thing to your brain, threat. And if I feel threat in any way, shape, or form, you're going to find out you won't get very far in your technique no matter what, whatever technique you think is the best because they're the little secret as they own.

Yeah. It's funny you say that. There's just recently I was, I've been, I like to A-B test a little bit with patients, at least communication just to see what works for me or what works for them too. And something I've been doing lately because I've had a couple of people who have really asked, like, I'm like, hey, we're going to do this one corrective exercise. And they're like, why are we doing this? And I'll explain it. And then we'll keep going. And the next day he'll come in and he's like, why are we doing this? And so finally I stopped one and I said, do you really want to know? Or like, I'll tell you everything about it.

I'll give you more information than you ever want to know about it. And you can, and we can have this communication and we can talk or option two is you just trust me and let's just do it. And they all seem to take the second one because they, they seem like in my experience, they haven't, they haven't really wanted to know that much, but they want to know that I know. And they want to, they want to make sure they can hand over the reins, you know? Yeah, that's exactly, that's very true. Yeah. They want a sense of safety, right? That they feel safe in the environment that they're in. And, you know, when, when they know that, that, you know, and you're confident that, that comes back on them.

It really does. And yeah, you have to read the person that you're with. Not everybody's the same and how you're going to approach them or talk to them. Because words matter. Words really matter. You can't, you know, early on in my career as a chiropractor, I used to have all these different consultants and we kind of have those now still. And they haven't worked. And they'd go, all right, here's what you're going to do on every single patient. Visit one, two, three. Here's, here's your script. And this is your report of findings. And this is your plan. As a freaking robot, man, like you can have a template.

Of having an idea. But you have to let that stuff go because you're not, you're not really there. You know what I'm saying? And that's the authenticity I'm talking about. Like I'm just going to, I got a template. I got a system. If you don't have a system, you're going to get lost. And one of the things that you'll find is that you never reach where your goal is. You fall to where your systems are. So if you don't have a good system, you're not going to get to your goal. But that's when you've got to bring yourself in there and say, oh my God, I'm supposed to say this to this patient. But I'm getting a different vibe from that patient, right?

Then you've got to drop it. And I've got to be right with you. And that's what I did with public speaking and teaching. It's really been an interesting transformation for me because in the beginning, I would like, like most people do when they try to teach, they put way too much information on what they're teaching. And so I'm trying to impress you with how much stuff I know, which doesn't mean squat to most people. And then I was just getting overloaded. Okay, I got this slide coming up with like 500 things on it. And then am I going to be able to get through everything? And it wasn't really a great experience for me.

And it wasn't a great experience for the audience. And then now what I do is when I teach, I don't really follow slides. I'll put like one word up there and it'll just say like emotion. Boom. I'm talking for 30 minutes. Just go. Right. It stresses people out when they come to my classes in the beginning. I jokingly say it. I said, listen, one of the things that stresses out your brain is uncertainty. Well, I'm going to stress you a lot because I'm not going to go slide by slide. When I'm on slide 17 and you expect 18, you ain't going to see it. It's going to be somewhere else. Just random numbers.

Yeah. You got to be uncertain where this guy is. But I promise you, you trust me by the end of, by the time I'm done, don't pay attention to the slides. I want you to be in the moment with me and just absorbing it and learning it because what I teach you right now on 17, I may have to bring something up on slide 80 that's relevant to 17. If you can just trust that and be there, you'll get there. And I think that's what we need to do in clinical settings as well. We're so worried about going through the checkbox of I did this range of motion, flexion, extension, rotation. And I did this orthopedic, this orthopedic.

You're going down in an order. You know, you've got to be with that person. Use your intuition. Use your sight. Use your feel for that. Right. And you'll get where you want to go if you just stop going through this checkbox list of did I do all my orthopedic tests for the hip? Right. Because they only tell you you got a hip problem. They don't tell you shit about why you got a hip problem. Right. First of all, the only people who really do need the orthopedic test, in my opinion, are the insurance companies. Right. I never met a Faber test that told me why you got a hip problem. Right. I think diagnosis codes are probably the same way.

Well, yeah. Well, they're dangerous, man, because you fall into becoming your diagnosis and people like all the time. Like, oh, I have I have this. I have that. Well, that's a sinkhole that pulls you in quick, fast and air. And then all of a sudden, you're like, once you've been told you have something, then all of a sudden you go from one symptom of it to 50. Like you start to manifest all those different symptoms that you have, because that's what you've been told you have. And this is what you should feel. So that mind body connection comes back kind of like a nocebo effect. I like to talk to you about that.

And then that's why the Internet can be deadly, because I'm going in there for low back pain. And the next thing you know, I've got dengue fever from Africa. Like, you got to be careful with the rabbit hole that you go down. So education is powerful. Education can help you get out of pain because you understand your body. But it can also be really dangerous as well when you start to look at it. If you don't have somebody around you that can reel you in. Does that make sense? Yeah. And actually, too, I know that you've gone through a lot of a lot of your conversations seem to go down. There's other things that can be making your thing painful or make it trigger.

And I'm just thinking about how, you know, people say, like, my arthritis, my hip, my joint, my. So my observation is that people tend to gravitate towards an actual, an area that they can actually feel or visualize. And then you've been talking about lymph a lot, neurological, vascular. It's like those are a little bit harder to visualize. And that's just, it's, it's, I think it's interesting. They seem to gravitate towards that structure that they can identify with as being their problem. And then it's just part of them, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, that's a big thing that's changed in my approach to how I work with people is you got to be careful with specialization if you're in this industry, because you get really, really good at one thing or one system.

And then I jokingly say that just means you suck at a lot of other things. So you're good at like one thing, but you're really not good at a lot of other stuff. And then that's where you see what you expect to see. You forget how interactions happen with different systems. And how do you actually go through it down when you're evaluating somebody? How do you pick which route to take? Is there a certain, is there a certain mental approach that you're kind of going through? You're looking for rabbit holes to appear? How does that go? Yeah, well, so I look at the body because I studied pain science and brain science.

It's an human behavior and emotion and psychology because I want to, I don't want to just understand parts because parts won't get you anywhere. You got to understand a system and that's everything together. And you have to look at a hierarchy of what really matters to your brain, right? Not dying is first and foremost on its list. And as long as I'm not dead, brother, it's a good day to your brain. It really doesn't care if you're happy or not. If you're alive, it really doesn't care. And it doesn't really care if you got a lot of pain. It just cares that you're not, not breathing. You know what I mean?

So it holds on to things based on what's more important to it. And so when I, when somebody comes into me, you know, I started in the musculoskeletal world of the chiropractor. So everything to me was a spine problem or it's only our joint problem or bone problem or muscle problem. And, but you got to be careful because that's only one system. And in my opinion, it's the least important system you have. Like you've got, if you come into me, you've got, uh, right, a local area. This is where you put your finger. It hurts right here. And we know that pain only tells you that there is a problem that doesn't tell you what the problem is.

So pain is a communication signal. And I jokingly say to people, pain is there to actually punish you and make your life miserable, right? No. It's there to try to protect you. And as soon as you realize that, that, that lets you know how you can find the damn answer. Once you change the perspective on what the pain is for, right? So you pinpoint here. And then normally if you rub there and it gets better, thumbs up, man, you're all good. That's what you want. But it very rarely lasts for long. And it usually gets the same draw and I felt good blow out, but it kept coming back, right? But then you have to look, I got local.

That's the least important place you go. There's this Ida Roth who said, where do you think it is? It ain't. Or a beautiful name. Stop chasing pain, which is my company. Treat pain, but don't chase it. Right? And then, so that's one system. But you have all these other systems that go from here. You've got pain, side of pain. You got muscle. I got fascia. I got joint. Right? But then I've got the other ones. Well, what about my internal organs? What about my endocrine system? What about my vascular system? What about my lymphatic system? What about my brain and how my brain interprets everything in my life that may have led to how this shoulder is functioning?

So you have to go through a hierarchy. And very often what you'll find is that many of the issues that you're trying to struggle with for a joint or a muscle or a nerve are because of a problem higher up the priority chain. Because let's say, for instance, with hypoxia. Hypoxia is a big problem that people have. It's where they have a slight decrease in oxygenation or blood flow to the body or in an area. Not so much that you recognize that you can't breathe, but it's just a little bit over the long haul that you don't even really notice. But your body notices. And the first thing that happens to your brain when you have hypoxia is one thing.

It thinks it's threat. It thinks it's going to die, which is actually what it is. Tissue starts to begin to die. It doesn't want to move when it can't breathe. Think about that. Do you want to move when you can't breathe? Of course not. Right? But it's over and over and over. So if you have a vascularization issue in that tissue that you're working on locally, but also more globally. So you have the shoulder, but where does a big blood flow come from to the shoulder? Right? And then that ties into the lymphatic system because you know that your cardiovascular system cannot work efficiently without your lymphatic system.

You have those two systems together. And in my opinion, muscle and fascia and joint are really low on the totem pole. Breathing and vascularization are way more important to your body. So if I can give you better vascularization, aka oxygenation, then maybe that muscle right there doesn't hurt as much. Does that make sense? And then to do that, here's the take home. To do that, I can't just look at your side of pain because that's only a localized area of your system. I have to look at the whole body. How the entire system works together because we know when you move, let's say it's your right shoulder.

When you move your right shoulder, everything else in your body moves. Everything else in your body moves. You just don't feel it. And then when you walk, for instance, you know that your right arm has to work with your left arm. You know your right arm has to work with your left leg and your right leg. So all these interconnections go together. That's why if somebody treats the right shoulder and they've done everything to the right shoulder and it's not any better. Assuming that it's not a red flag and you don't have cancer or a tear or you need surgery. Because then you don't come to see me if your arm's hanging off.

You go to a surgeon, right? But then I'm going to say to itself, well, I'm going to check your vascular system. Like, dude, you know me. I feel the nerves everywhere. And you jump off the freaking table when I check a nerve around your inside of your left ankle. And you didn't jump anywhere else in your body. Guess what? That's where I'm going. Because I know if you jump, stay with me. If you jump like that when I touch that nerve, I know that nerve is a hot nerve. And your body, you didn't know it was a hot nerve until I touched it. But you know who knows it? Your brain knows it. Consciously, you just don't know it yet.

All right? And then so do your brain says, dude, I got to protect this left ankle any way we can. Because, dude, it's going to hurt like that all the time. And that's going to suck. So then what it does is it says, I have an idea. How about I just overuse something on the right shoulder, which changes how you swing your upper torso when you move your left ankle. Problem solved. Bing, bang, boom. Right? So the right shoulder is the compensation adaptation to the problem in the left ankle like that. So it's a protective pain. It's a protective outlook. That's why you can put the puzzle piece together and say, when somebody looks and says, how does the left ankle relate to the right shoulder?

That's how. First of all, because your brain doesn't know what a left ankle is. It doesn't know what a right shoulder is. We call it that. Man says, this is your calcaneus. This is your humerus. Your brain says, that's nice. I don't give a shit. I don't know what it is. All I know is I'm just me. So fix me. And the number one saying that I try to tell clinicians when they're learning to assess is I jokingly say, forget what you've been taught. I'm not really serious. I'm just joking. And I say, I want you to think like your brain. Think like your brain. And when you know what your brain wants, it becomes easy.

Then you say, think like your brain. But here comes the kicker. I need you to think like your client's brain. Because it's a different brain. I'm not dealing with the same tissue from patient A to patient B because each brain has had a different history. A different context. A different perspective. And that influences everything. So first think like your brain and then think like your patient's brain. If you do that, you'll start to find a lot of things that you might not have seen before. Does that make sense? So when you're thinking like your patient's brain, are we figuring out past history of injury, past problems, past – because when you gave the example of the shoulder, how do we find – other than evaluating every single area of the body or just rubbing them all over?

And then that might not be PC for a lot of people. How do we – how do we localize in there? Well, that's why history matters, right? Mm-hmm. You take a really great history and go back, go way back. You know, I usually find the answer to something that happened about 10 years or longer backwards. Mm-hmm. And then really look at your intake form, man. So if you have a practice like most people, you should have a body systems intake form, yeah? Mm-hmm. And then it says, okay, this is what I've got for my gastrointestinal. This is what I've got for reproductive. This is what I've got for – you know what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm. And then it's very simple. The more checkbox you have on that thing, the more screwed up you are, right? But it tells me when I see stuff in a system that you checked off, what the body is trying to tell me. So when you come in to see me, you know, I'm not a gastroenterologist, right? You come to see me for your shoulder. But if I see you've checked off three-quarters of the box under my GI section, well, then I know that your shoulder is going to be related to something in your GI because that's the internal organs. And the internal organs are going to influence how well you can twist and move in the fascia of your abdomen and transmit force from your shoulder across to your hip, right?

So I know that I have to look at that. And then you get it by, first of all, observing, watching, talking, looking at the history, and then kind of knowing where you want to go. But I know you jokingly said you can't go over the whole body. And you're like, well, I am. When you come to see me, that's what I do. I'm not just going to look at your knee if your knee hurts. When you come on in, I'm going to look at your systems and approach everything. And then I'm going to focus on the left side first so you don't think I'm out of my mind to go to your head. I'm going to go to their pain first. And then I'm going to look everywhere.

And it's really simple to do with some of the stuff that I teach where you know what the body is trying to tell you and key areas that you need to push on. Because I think a lot of people, in my opinion, don't really do enough evaluation by hand. They don't really have great palpation skills or they're not pressing hard enough in some areas or deep enough or at different angles. And I tell people, I jokingly say, when I work with you, here's how it works. Healthy tissue shouldn't hurt when you press on it. And if it hurts when I press on it, it's not healthy. So when I assess you, I jokingly say, listen, I'm going to be kind of a jerk.

I'm going to press hard. I'm going to be aggressive. But it shouldn't hurt when I do that. And I'll start to go. And I can tell your response. And if I see that things are really painful, I'm not going to do that anymore. I understand. But I'm going to be able to tell right away the state of the tissues. But here's the thing. I'm really, quote, unquote, kind of joking when I say I'm going to be nasty when I assess you. But I'm really, really nice when I treat you. That's the difference. Because I can't put you in that amount of physical pain when I treat you because it has pushed you into the threat response as well.

So let's say when you come on in to see me and you will go to that right shoulder again. I'm going to press around that right shoulder pretty hard. But I'm going to press along every nerve that goes through the shoulder. I'm going to go all the way down the nerves to your hand. I'm going to go all the way up the nerves up to your neck. And I'm going to do the same thing to the nerves on the other shoulder. That's where I'm going to start first. And there should be no pain in any of those nerves or tissues, period. Right side or left side. And then very often what you'll find is people have more pain on palpation and assessment to the non-painful side they're coming in.

And that's really important, Peter. No, because there's something going on with that tissue, but it hasn't reached the pain threshold yet. Right? Because if your body has one job enough to protect you, it doesn't want to get you in pain. So when somebody is on your table, they're a seething mass of compensations and adaptations. And the body doesn't want to send you pain. Pain is the last thing you feel, not the first. Right? So stuff is a brewing over here. And then here's how I think. I'm going to go back to it again. I'm going to think like your brain. Let's go back to it. We know there's some vulnerability on the left side, and the brain wants to protect the left side.

It's not painful. On the left side. You're still with me. You're coming in with pain in your right shoulder. So I'm going to look at your left shoulder. And here's how I think. Like your brain. Well, something's up with the left shoulder, and I need to protect the left shoulder. Then what it does is it says, I have an idea. Hey, guys, we can use the right shoulder like a lot more. Right? And then it overuses the right shoulder to protect the left shoulder. But then the right shoulder starts to hurt because your compensation mechanism may have worn out. It's worn out. One possibility. Right? So you're worn out.

And then all of a sudden, it hurts over here because your brain says, geez, well, you know, that strategy is the only one I got. But I got to run with it. Right? And go this way. And eventually, this pain might go away because your brain picks another strategy. It says, okay, right shoulder sucks. Let's go to left hip. Bingo. So then the left hip starts to do more. And then you get this bing, bang, boom, boom. It just starts to chase all over. But what I do is I first go in and think with the shoulder you're coming in to see me for, if I've done my traditional approaches of the treatments that would normally help your shoulder and they work, perfect.

I'm done. Come to see me if you hurt yourself again. If they don't work, then I automatically have to go down my thinking and say, it's probably not there. It's coming from somewhere else. And then when I know about the protective response, then I'm going to look somewhere else and press there. And here's a really cool thing that you'll find that I teach in my class. Let's say that the right shoulder hurts. And then I'm going to check the nerves on the left shoulder down to the left arm. What you'll find, which is really cool when you see it, let's say I'm coming down and let's check the axillary nerve on the left, on the left shoulder, right?

Around the back part of the shoulder. If I press on that nerve and I hit the sweet spot and it's really, really painful, you want to get away from pain, yes? I would assume so, unless you're really into that kind of stuff. What you'll very often notice is this. If I push really hard on the left shoulder, the person recruits the right shoulder in the jump. So I'll push on the left shoulder and then the right will go like this. The right moves. And what the body just showed you is, aha, I just found the protective response from that nerve. So to protect that nerve, it moves this right shoulder. Does that make sense?

So I saw, I saw, I wasn't guessing on your compensation. I'm going through my system. And then when I press on it, I'll watch your response. The key being your response. Because somebody else on the axillary nerve, they may move their right knee really high into flexion, your hip. So then I'm like, okay, well, then I got to go to a hip flexor in relationship to your left shoulder, if that makes sense. And then I know the two are connected. That's how you have to look at the body. And you can only do that with a really intensive exam. So for me, when you see me, I save a lot of time in my therapies by spending a lot of time with my exam.

So you have a one-hour, one-on-one, uninterrupted time where I assess you from inside out. I pop the hood. I look up underneath. I check everywhere. Because from that point on, I have a good idea of where I want to go. And then I'll do my first intervention based on what I think your body is telling me. And then I'll see what the body says. If I get it right, then you really made some nice strides. If I got it wrong, then that means is I missed something. I got to go back and change my approach. I'm not going to do the same thing again if you don't have the change that I'm looking for, if that makes sense.

Actually, when you mentioned the compensation that they would have, do you happen to find that do people tend to, no matter where their trigger might be, wherever you're pressing, they'll have the same response or they'll have a different response based upon location? I'm going to clarify that again so I make sure I understand it. So if you push on the left axillary nerve and they use the right shoulder to compensate, let's just say if they come in six months down the road and you find something in their ankle and you do that, would they do the same arm response or would they maybe have another?

No. Because here's the saying I say all the time, the body can do whatever the hell it wants to do. You don't have to go under any predetermined compensation pattern. It can do whatever the hell it wants to do. And another favorite saying is the human body is under no obligation whatsoever to make sense to you. Like, I don't care if it makes sense. I'm looking at what it does. Because the brain has to deal in the moment, like right now. It doesn't think about the next second. It only thinks about now. So when it's trying to compensate for you, it may make in your mind, in your eyes, it may look like the dumbest, batshit, craziest compensation you've ever seen.

But to the body, it's like, dude, it's the best thing I can do right now in the moment. I'm running with it. I'm going to worry about the long-term effects later. I'll let you figure that out. I'm just dealing with what I got now. So for me, if you press on this axillary nerve and I want to move my right little finger this way, then that makes sense to me. So I'm going to go wherever I see the response. Because here's the thing I'm trying to tell you. I should press on your axillary nerve and not have any compensation. Because a healthy nerve won't hurt. In those areas where you have those hypersensitivity, what's a couple things that you usually go to with for maybe the first step in maybe testing to see if that's what the body wants is a correction?

Yeah. Well, it's pretty simple. First thing I'm going to do is I'm going to assume that that's the area of the compensation. And then I'm not going to put you in pain when I treat you. So what I got to do is if I pushed on your ankle and then you flipped up, let's say I pushed on your left ankle and you moved your right shoulder up. Well, then I got to check the nerve all the way up the chain, like a little bit further up and make sure there's no other hot spots as you go. So then what I'm thinking to myself, okay, if a nerve is hot, I know a nerve can't breathe, first of all. Because nerves only get hot when they can't breathe and when they can't move.

But why can't they move? They can't move because they can't breathe. You follow? Those nerves have to glide. If you see how the nerve is in the tissues, it's supposed to move a lot, man. It's supposed to crisscross and glide when you ankle dorsiflex, plantar flex, invert, kneevert. It's supposed to slip slide it away in that thing. And if it can't breathe because it doesn't have a good oxygen supply hypoxia, then the tissue is stiffing up like this. So what I got to do is I've got to check and see and get more blood flow into that region. You could do that by hand. You could do it by ultrasound.

You could do it by laser. You could do it by tools. But I got to go also. So I need blood supply around the ankle. Yes. But where does the blood supply start for the ankle? At the heart. It starts up in your groin. It starts up in your groin, the edge of the heart, ultimately, but in your groin right around your femoral artery. I got to go there. And then what sits there is the femoral nerve. Holy hell, maybe the femoral nerve is hot. And I know what sits around there is a lot of lymph. And I know if you can't breathe through the femoral area, then your lymph is a problem as well. So to help your ankle, I need to give you blood flow in your ankle.

But I also got to give you blood flow around your groin in that region. Then I have to think, okay, well, I know that I've got swelling and inflammation. Inflammation has to get out of the body because the body wants to get rid of it. In order to get rid of the inflammation, it has to get out through your lymphatic system. So I've got to clear the lymph channel behind your knee, in your groin, and up in your neck so all that stuff can get out. Because you have to heal the tissue that's there, but you also have to be able to form new tissue later. So you have to heal what's there, but then form new stuff.

And if you have an environment that can't breathe or you have lymph that can't drain, you have an extracellular matrix, an interstitial fluid where all this stuff lives. It's toxic as shit. And your brain says, dude, I'm not going to form new stuff here. It's awful out there. I don't want you to go out there. So then it gets stuck and the body has to deal with what it has to deal with. And then you think like your brain again. Why do you have an ankle mobility issue? Ankle mobility is a big problem. Why doesn't your body want you to move your ankle? It's really simple. It doesn't want you to move your ankle.

Yes. Why doesn't it want you to move your ankle? Because it feels vulnerable somewhere. And it won't let you move your ankle if the nerve can't track and nerve can't breathe. So what you may find is you can move the ankle joint. The ankle joint always locks up again. Now I want you to check the nerve, get the blood flow to the nerve, clear your lymph, then move the ankle, and then see what happens. Because we know that no system, no system, no system works alone. Yeah. No system works alone. We know this. We've been taught this. But we break these things out into individual parts. We go down to the right to the cellular level of what makes up a cell, what makes up a neuron.

And I'm like, that doesn't help me, man, because that thing doesn't work by itself. It needs to work with everything else. Does that make sense? And if you just grasp that, the first thing it does is it makes this shit so much more fun to do. Because then you step back and you remember, hopefully, why you got into this stuff. I've got a human being in front of me that I want to try to help. I want to make a difference in this person's life. And I know it's not about the part. If you're a surgeon, it's about the part. You do your thing. You move out of the room. Then you send them into my world.

Got it? Like everybody plays their role. But in my world, I have to look at the whole body like that. And then it brought joy back into my practice again where I was really disheartened. I'm doing the same thing all the time, three times a week, cookie cutter stuff. I'm like, this just can't be it. I was very close to quitting. I just had it. Right? And then when I found this, I was like, damn, this is fun because it makes every single one of your clients unique. But dude, man, it lights up your brain like crazy because you have to do something as a clinician that a lot of us, unfortunately, forget to do.

Got to use your freaking brain, man. You got to look at it and not just go through the checklist. And I went to this technique. And now when I go back on Monday, how everybody gets that technique kind of thing. You need to mix them all together and see what's the combination of the technique that I might need to do. Am I doing the technique in the right area? All sorts of that stuff. But the techniques only work as well as your assessment, in my opinion, because if you're doing the wrong, the right stuff in the wrong place, you're not going to get the same results. Does that make sense? My brain open up here?

It does. No, I was just letting you flow. Good. So sometimes I get carried away. You can see. Well, you know, for me, I hope it comes across that I'm very passionate about it. And I'm on a mission to try to teach people this thought process. And also how I teach it is like how I am. Like, you know. Yeah. The one thing actually I've learned a lot from watching and listening to your stuff is that I feel like over time, like, so I first started as mainly muscle joint, right? Musculoskeletal stuff. And then I kind of went ass backwards, I guess, because usually chiro will go nerve first. So then I eventually introduced nerve.

And then you recognize fascia. And then you recognize diaphragm and breathing and IAP and blah, blah, blah. And you started talking about lymph. And I'm like, holy shit, there's another system? I'll pair you. So there you are. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, I often think, like, what's the next system? Like, what's the one that we're going to miss, that we're missing right now that is the next one that you thought, shit, 10 years ago, I should have known about that one is an important player, you know? So I'm following you. The lymph one's a little newer one to me, to be quite honest, though. Well, if you want me to answer the question you just asked, that's the system.

The lymph is the one? The lymph is the one. The lymph is the master system. Lymph is mainly, it's recycled movement-based, right? Like muscular contraction-based. Yeah, it moves several different ways. One, primarily through diaphragmatic breathing. It's also going to move in a way from your craniosacral pump, from your sacrum to your skull. And it moves through movement, in and of itself through human movement, right? And the lymph also has a little bit of a smooth muscle around itself, so it can do a little bit. But it's those together that do that. Yeah, that can get it moving. But it's a big issue for a lot of people, because it's very neglected.

Like, imagine nobody ever showing you any love whatsoever your whole damn life. I mean, you'd probably be a little bit upset, too. And when you look at the body, you realize that, you know, I have a program that I call Lymphatic Mojo. Mojo means magic, and I call it the Body Aquarium, because your body is like an aquarium. And your lymph bathes everything. So all the stuff that we're trying to influence, all the stuff that we're trying to change, is beholden to the environment that it lives in. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. It's beholden to the environment that it lives in. And the one thing that controls that environment is your lymphatics.

You mentioned your classes a couple times. Do you guys go into Lymphatic a lot, I'm assuming? If I do the Lymphatic course, yeah. I have two courses that I teach right now. One is the Primal Movement Chains Moving Beyond Mobility. That, of course, I've taught for several years. It's all based in, you know, ground-based movements, kind of neurodevelopmental stuff. And then I introduce a little bit of lymph work in there. And then I have one that I've recently launched because of the demand that I've had from the video and people getting results. It's a lymphatic course, and that's the one where I have a one-day or a two-day intensive course where I show you all about the lymphatic system.

But what I've done is that I've had a very similar journey to you where I've studied many different things prior to going into the lymph. So now what I do is I take all the things that I've learned before, I throw it in a pot, and I mix it up. So now my lymph course mixes pain science, neuroscience, affective neuroscience, which is emotion and psychology, with movement and with the lymph. Because I realized I can't just treat the lymph either. I have to treat the whole system, so I mixed all those in together. And when I did that, I got some pretty cool magical shit at the other end, honestly.

And so that's really what I'm into teaching now. And everything that I teach, I've always been the first client. I always hit a roadblock for me and my illness from an autoimmune illness. Because why the hell do you get an autoimmune disease? What's up with that, right? And why does your body just all of a sudden decide to turn on you? And it turns out to me it was lymphatic stuff that was a huge issue for me. And until I got that taken care of, I couldn't take the brakes off anything. And one of the things I say all the time is that you're only as good as your weakest and most vulnerable system.

Right? So you're only going to go as far as that one lets you. Yeah. That makes sense. I was actually thinking earlier when you talked about the autoimmune, I was thinking that that's maybe how you got into lymph stuff, actually. I did. But we tangented. We launched a functional medicine and movement course with a friend of mine who's a functional medicine doctor expert. And we just took concepts from that world, mixed it with movement and some other stuff that I teach in relationship to the nervous system and the vagus nerve, trying to take down the stress response in the body. Because that's one of the reasons you can get the autoimmune stuff is because you're always in a heightened state of stress.

And so we just got that one launching as well. That's coming on out with another company that we formed called Functional Health Systems. And that's coming out, too. No, it's – things happen in the universe and you find things when you're ready to find it. I totally agree. If I can just maybe drop one or two things to get somebody to – you may not agree with 99% of the stuff I say and that's fine. But maybe you're 1%. You're like, damn, that's actually a pretty good point. Maybe I'll just take a chance on looking at it like that, right? I think a lot of your stuff is very – I think it's very clear.

It makes a lot of sense to me. I guess I haven't had a ton of – I've tried to explain a lot of things to clients and patients. But at the same time, like, I realize it's – maybe it's too soon to go down that route. I've got to build their trust first before getting too into the weeds. But I love your stuff and it makes complete sense to me. Yeah, so like I said before, you're very selective on things, right? I mean you can tell when somebody might be ready for something. And my system is very easy when I tell people. First of all, I try to make it a very easy system because complex things don't have to be complicated.

In the medical world, we like to complicate the shit out of everything because we want to make ourselves feel more important. So complex can still be made simple. And I tell people, listen, with my program, just go back and think of the one person – we always think about the one person we can't help. Or we hit a roadblock and you're like, I've tried everything. Start there. Just go with that person. And then when you come back, you don't – well, first of all, I say you should check the limp on everybody. That one, it should be a gold standard. But let's say, OK, you're not going to go down the big rabbit hole that I've got.

But then you say maybe in the back of your mind it's coming up that dealing with a pain in my right shoulder, now you know, well, let me just press on nerves on the other shoulder too. Maybe if you just start there and sprinkle little things in now and then, but it will get your wheels turning, first of all, when you do it. Because in my opinion, listen, your patients deserve it for you to be able to check like that. And then they're the benchmark, right? Do you actually have for the clinicians out there that are wondering, how do I check lymph? Do you have some resources they can look at on your site or – Well, yeah.

I mean most of my stuff you can get a couple different ways on the left. If you want to jump into the deep end of the pool, you come to my course. And then, you know, I teach you everything from there. And then for the one day and the two day, which I have posted on my website, stopchasingpain.com. I've actually got a lot coming up. You can go into my membership site. On my membership site, I show you a lot about the lymph and stuff like that. I've got about 700 videos on a lot of different things there, many different subjects. Or I have a video that you can purchase as well. It's called Lymphatic Mojo Body Aquarium that's on my website or on my Instagram channel where you can get the streaming video.

And I'll walk you step by step through what the system is. I'll show you where the nodes are. Then we zoom in like Saving Private Ryan kind of stuff. Like in there, like you can see where to press. And then I'll show you the treatment technique where, one, you can do it to a person, but the person can do it to themselves. It's actually a self-treatment technique because I wanted to make it available for the general public to do because everybody has a God-given right to take care of their own lymphatic system. And they can do that. That's probably the best way because the lymphatic system, you have to do a very specific way.

You have to do it in a specific order. You have to do it in a specific pace, depth, speed, rate, all that stuff if you want to get the most optimal results for that. So that's probably the best way. Okay. Is there anything that you think, as we start to close up, because I want to be respectful of your time, we talk forever, but is there anything that we need to cover that we didn't cover yet that you think is important? That's a good question. Well, like you said, I mean, we could go on forever. Yeah, I know. No, I think that that's a good place for people to start, to have a view of the body.

I would just reiterate, just really take into heart what a lot of us know, but sometimes I think we give lip service to, but we don't really practice it, is that everything is connected. The body is a whole in mind and body. And if you really take that to heart and start to think like that, I think that you'll get a lot more joy in your practice again. And you'll probably find some really interesting things happen in your practice. It's just like, when I came about it like that, all of a sudden I just started to get patients out of nowhere, man. Like for all these different things that would normally have never come into my office.

And I'm like, what the hell is going on? I'm like, oh, I know now. It's this universe stuff. Okay, I got it. Right on. Well, Perry, thank you so much for being on. This was great. I love it. Yeah, it was fun, man. Thank you. I hope people had a good time. I'm sure they did. Nice. Thanks again, Dr. Perry, for being on. That was amazing. Doc Perry. So if everyone's looking for the show notes on that, go to ptsportscare.com. This is going to be session number, I think, 115. So if you're unsure if what interview number it is or what session number it is, obviously look at your little player right there.

It's going to tell you. If you haven't reviewed this podcast yet, please do. Again, this is part of building us up as a profession. I'm not just talking about chiropractors. And I'm talking about PTs, ATCs, just movement people, you know. I don't know if the term movement specialist is coined yet, but for the most part, we're all movement specialists, you know. And I think as we start to build the public's knowledge of what we can do for them, we're actually going to help more and more people. So if you can share this with another clinician, that would be amazing. And if you can review it on iTunes or on Stitcher or Google Play or wherever you're hearing it at, that would help us out.

Not just me. It would help us out to get this information to more people. So, again, if you guys have someone you want me to interview, let me know. I don't want to think I'm running dry on people, but I interviewed a lot of great people so far. So, also, too, if you haven't looked back in the archives yet, if this is your first time listening to this, we have Dr. Stu McGill on there or Professor Stu McGill. We have Dan John on there. Richard Ulm was great on there. Actually, I should just do some numbers. I think Stu is 67. Richard Ulm, I think, was 63. Dan John was 61. Tom Michaud, which is a great one, 94.

And one of my personal favorites, 105, is one where me and Dr. Cody Dimak, who some of you might not have heard of yet, which you will hear more of pretty soon, I believe. We go over how sections of syndromes intersect and so how we can just improve people overall with a couple different interventions, kind of how Dr. Perry talked about today, but in a little different way. Again, we're just hitting the intersecting points. And so, if you haven't been through these podcasts yet, there's some great ones back in the archives, so don't just start here. Go back and download those other ones and tell them what you think.

Again, leave people in bed at how you found them. And if you are dating, date an Eagle Scout because they're great. They're the shit. Talk to you later.