How to Talk About Pain So Your Rehab Actually Works

And he kept saying like, Oh yeah, it gets, it's getting tight. It's getting tight. And I kept thinking like, Oh, it's just tight. Like we can push through it, like whatever. And then one time I was looking at him cause he was making faces and he was saying it was tight. I'm like, when you say tight, what do you mean by tight? He's like, well, I mean, I'm like, do you mean pain? He's like, well, yeah, I mean, it's tight. It's pain. And he was like in a lot of pain whenever he said tight. And so I had to recognize that when he said tight, he meant pain. And there's so many other stories like that, but it was just really funny because I was just putting it into my own dialect, I guess you could say, because to me, tight means, Oh, you're fine. You can keep going. Once they said it's painful, maybe we should back off. And he meant like, I'm in a lot of pain, but he was like, Oh, it's tight. He's trying to act cool about it.

You're listening to the restoring human movement podcast where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery. And now your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey everyone. It's Dr. Sebastian Gonzales, your host with the restoring human movement podcast. Thanks for joining the movement movement. Today we're going to have on a guest. This is a doctor of physical therapy. It's Caleb Burgess or Burgess. I think we talked about in there, question mark, maybe. So that's B-U-R-G-E-S-S. He is someone who, he was interviewed by someone that I know. And when I was listening to my friend's podcast, he was the guest. And I thought, man, this guy's got a lot of good stuff to say.

I thought we would just have really good general conversation today. And so this is your first time in the show, by the way. Let me lay out the format really quickly. So oftentimes I will have on a guest or I'll do solo podcasts. A lot of times the solo podcasts are targeted at improving communication with patients so they can better understand what's going on in their body. Think of this podcast as kind of a three-way conversation that we're kind of having in a bar. Maybe you got a Bud Light. Maybe I got something better, like a double IPA. And our friend who is a welder, we're going to get a welder today, he's just kind of listening behind. He's like, hey, what are you guys talking about? What are you talking about when you say inversion?

And so I'm trying to improve communication between patients as well as clinicians so we can all get along. And so this is about an hour podcast format or so. If you are interested in looking up some really, really good stuff. I have some great guests on in the past. I've interviewed Stu McGill on here, Cody D-Mac, Richard Ulm, Dan John, Michael Shacklock, and gosh, let's go with Tom Michaud. So there's a lot of great guests in there. By the way, I'm proud to say I'm the second person who's ever got Tom Michaud on there. He's a hard one to track down. So as we go through this as well, just know that typically I share a little bit about myself via storytelling format just for a minute or so before we get to the guests. And then we're going to get right into the content because I believe you should know your host. All right, here we go. All right, so there's this one time that I was taking a corrective exercise or a movement-based class. And so this was called DNS. And I was actually sitting at lunch with a couple of PTs. They were about 50 years old or so, and they've been in practice for a long time. And so it was kind of funny. At that moment, I went after talking with them for about 10 minutes. They kind of had one of them, I had the courage to ask. He's like, hey, so how are you going to use this? And I said, use the exercises that we learned here or movements? And he's like, yeah. He's like, don't chiropractors just kind of like you only get like less than five minutes with your patients. Like it seems like it's going to take longer. And I was like, no, no, no. Let me explain how I kind of work. And so I explained a little bit more and then I was thinking about it. And so we kept eating. I said, how are you guys going to use this?

And they said, what do you mean? I said, don't you guys just throw ice packs from people and walk away? And so they laughed. We were all friends after that. But I think we all realized at that point the stereotypes that we sometimes have about each other's professions and how they could be archaic. So as I interview Dr. Caleb today, we kind of go through that a little bit. And you're going to see there's a lot of common ground there. So let's get right into the content. And by the way, if you have not subscribed yet, please do. This podcast only exists because you share them with a friend. So if you have one friend who is interested in the first 20 minutes of this podcast, please forward it directly to them. It is the only thing that I get from this podcast. I do not get paid for this. All right. So please do that. And here we get into the content.

Hello. Hey, how's it going? Hey, good. How are you? Sorry for coming a little bit late. I haven't used this app for like a year since my last time I used a podcast on it. Yeah, no worries. Is there anything you want to cover in particular today or? I don't know, man. I'm just whatever you want to talk about. We can just chat. That's fine. Yeah, it's probably I heard a couple of your other podcasts and I think I think we have a similar mindset. So we'll just probably back and forth on a couple couple things, you know. Perfect. I like it. Cool. How do you say it? Burgess? Burgess. Burgess. Unless you want to make it French and I could be like Burgess or something like that.

Put a question mark at the end of it. Burgess? What? Well, cool. So then let me welcome you on and then tell everyone about yourself. And just so you know that the listeners are mainly there's a lot of not necessarily PT, sorry, DC, ATC. Let's say movement therapist. And so everyone might be not familiar with PT realm. So tell us about yourself. All right. Well, my name is Caleb. I'm a doctor of physical therapy in Southern California. I grew up as a multiple sport athlete like a lot of us. Played some sports, got injured a few times, had some good experiences with my physical therapists. And I've always kind of been excited and always interested and pumped up about exercise and fitness in general. So it was just kind of a natural route after getting injured, going to physical therapy, being involved with sports and just always loving to exercise. So it was just a natural progression to get into this field. So what, um, where are you at? And actually in, so you're, you're in LA, right? Yeah. I mean, I always tell people LA, but it's the Inland Empire. Oh, you're in the IE. I'm in the IE. So I didn't grow up out here. I grew up in Orange County. Oh really? So, so I grew up in, uh, Costa Mesa. It's like right by the coast, uh, by Newport beach. Um, so I grew up as a kind of like a beach surfer guy that also played sports.

You heard your hair's not long enough though. I tried it, but it's too thick and poofy for that to, for that to work. And my, my friends could pull it off, but I couldn't. But then, uh, just because of the housing market's crazy out here, we ended up moving to the IE. So we're kind of on the fringes of Orange County. But as you know, it's kind of all close together. Yeah. It's a, we're, you're exactly out there. I'm in Huntington beach. So, Oh yeah. I'm a, I'm in Chino. So I'm like right off the, uh, you guys are from anybody's familiar with California. It's the, off the 91 freeway, which is one of the worst freeways in the world for traffic. So someone was telling me the other day actually that they, so they bought a house, uh, or so they live on the West side of Green River. And so they said, dude, I could have got a spot just the other side of Green River for like, like a hundred thousand left, but no one wants to cross Green River. Because, because of the traffic right there. Yeah. I know. So I'm getting on, I don't know if you're over the 71 freeway, but that's like right where the gridlock starts because everybody's dumping onto the 91 in the morning.

Yeah. It's horrible, but we make it work. It's not, my, my dad used to work on Corona. Actually. Yeah. Oh yeah. He worked in Corona and drove from Huntington for about 20 years. And finally he just said, uh, I don't want, I don't want to do this anymore, but he was going the other way of traffic at least. Yeah. We got lucky cause we had some family out here and my wife's aunt's a realtor. So she, she found us a good, good brand new place. We can kind of develop it as first time home buyers. It was kind of cool to kind of put our own place together and it's hard to find that in Orange County without paying an arm and a leg for it. Yeah. Well, let's keep that in mind. I didn't know. I knew your posts, your posts are a lot of places, so I didn't know exactly where you were, but, uh, yeah, if you're out in Chino, I think, uh, there's probably going to be some people that are, uh, referred that way. Yeah. So yeah, for sure. Um, so I thought I would have you on after, uh, I heard you on framework actually with Ikeka. Um, yeah. And so I've had him on once I've been on his and, uh, and, uh, when I was hearing his new format, I'm like, Oh, you got Caleb on there. Cool. Let's do this. I follow you. Um, yeah, but I thought you would be interested to have on as the, uh, there's, uh, most of the listenership are, are their healthcare providers, mainly at, let me say your movement therapist and movement specialist and blah, blah, blah. But, um, there are some lay publicans as well.

And so I think, um, an interesting part here to hear from you as, as from someone who has a following of, what is it? 250,000. Something. Yeah. It's a lot of people on Instagram. Um, and your posts are very, they're very, I don't want to say easy, but, but they're boiled down. Um, and so it's hard to, like my, my observation of working with people, it's hard, very hard to make complex topics simple so they can do what you're asking them to do. So I thought it'd be an interesting thing to observe how you communicate things throughout the podcast today. Yeah, I think that's a super important subject, kind of just, um, translating our own movement language down to someone who really doesn't do that for a living. Um, so basically I made this, the social media presence to target a audience that, like you said, is very just general public. They might, they either are really interested in stuff or they're not interested in, when I say stuff, very interested in exercise and movement and rehab, or they're not. Um, they might just have like hurt their neck or shoulder and they're just looking for some help. And so for those people to go onto social media or look stuff up online and read about this stuff in our language that they can't really understand, they kind of have to pick and choose what makes sense to them. And then sometimes that can be really confusing or they can get the wrong message. So, I mean, as you know, like a lot of times with our clients, we have to, every day we have to talk to these people and make it in a way that they can understand. Cause if they don't understand it, you can show them all the right stuff, but if they don't really get it, it's hard for them to improve because there's this like, okay, where are we going with this? I don't understand how this all works. And when they have understanding, the compliance gets better, you'll get better outcomes and all that kind of stuff. So I just kind of wanted to make this social media feed, um, an online presence, something where people can come and go, Oh, I can see where he's coming from, I can see how this could be really complicated, but I get this, this makes sense.

And so, um, I mean, I've had, I've had people that are in our field that still like, like you said, they appreciate it. And sometimes it helped. I didn't really mean it for them, but sometimes it even helps people within the field. Maybe understand things that maybe, maybe don't specialize in maybe my area or the people, see the people that I work with. So even for them, it might be helpful. Cause I appreciate that too. Sometimes when I read things and it's even boiled down, I'm like, Hey, it's just a quick takeaway. I don't have to like think things too complexly when I'm reading someone else's posts on maybe something that I don't see very often, like pelvic floor, physical therapy, something like that. Always good pictorials in there. Huh? Yeah. Always interesting pictorials.

You gotta be careful. Yeah. Well, that's cool. I, um, when you, well, when you started to, when you start improving your communication with people, were you always just, does it come natural or is it, uh, well, when I, when you first, when I first started, uh, in this career, it's really easy as like a new therapist or coach or whatever to take everything that you've learned and just kind of like get so excited and just word vomit this information out to your, to your patients and clients and not realize that like just totally going over their head. Um, so I guess I, at the beginning, I don't think I was the greatest at it, like a lot of people, but I was lucky enough that my first two years of practice, I went through a orthopedic residency program. And then the second year I did a orthopedic and sports fellowship. So I got a lot of like one-on-one mentoring. So four hours a week, I would have someone like another, someone that's been practicing for 20 plus years right there in the room, like just kind of shadowing me. So within session and after session, they critique you. Sometimes it kind of hurt. Sometimes it's a little bit, uh, intense, not in a mean way, but just they, they make sure they're not like leaving any stone unturned. And a lot of it at the beginning, they, they put a lot of emphasis on the communication and how you're communicating with your clients, getting the right information, making sure that they understand it. So you get all of that. And it was like, it's like bootcamp for two years, making sure that you get everything dialed in. So I think over time, I'm still getting better at it, but you just got to find how to communicate it to your client, meeting them where they are.

There's some people where like, like I was talking to Akaika about this was, um, did we mention that or was that before the show notes? Um, I think, uh, well about communication or the Akaika? Yeah. Cause people are like, who's that? Oh, well in case that, um, um, I, I, I heard you on framework with, with the Kaika dial set. So you got interviewed there. Yeah. So in case nobody heard it. Um, so he's a, he works with a lot of, uh, ballroom dancers and, and stuff like that. So I was talking to him about, I'm like, if I see a dancer or like a gymnast or someone has really good body awareness or someone like maybe like a yoga instructor or something like that, I can choose my language with them to be a lot more anatomical and like use these like anatomy term, kinesiology terms, like medial, lateral, superior, inferior, all that kind of stuff.

But then if I'm working with somebody, maybe Karen, who's 70 years old, who's never exercised in her life, but now she's having some back pain. I'm not going to use any of those terms. I'm going to keep it as simple as possible and sometimes more simple than I think. Like I think, Oh, she needs to know this information. I've kind of dialed myself back and go, she's just going to get overwhelmed. She just needs to remember the one to two exercises that I give her. So let's just make this as simple as possible. I'm not even going to like explain the mechanics of why it's hurt. I'm just gonna say, do these exercises. It's going to feel better. But then someone else, her age that's in the same boat might be in, have an engineering background and needs to know all the little details of how it works, or they're going to be so confused as to why they're even doing anything. So that's kind of a fun, I mean, I think you could probably agree. That's kind of a fun part of the process is like seeing where the person's at. And then sometimes going like, Oh shoot, I, I screwed that one up. They're going to leave. Yeah. I should give them a call real quick to make sure that they're on the right page because they walked out and they had this confused look on their face. So yeah, it's always a fun part of the process. I think setting expectations too with, well, actually I'll retract back. There was, there was, um, yeah, I agree. The interaction with, with the, uh, the, the person individually is, is important. And I remember I had this kid recently, he was like, he kind of moved like a baby giraffe. He's like 15 year old. Right. And so usually I'll, I'll kind of have them near me. Um, and that, and I had an intern with me. I'm like, okay, we're, we're going to ditch visual cause this isn't working. So I just positioned him, you know, and I usually don't like do them, but I was working with him. Um, uh, well, she forgot what I was going to say now. Um, but, uh, but yeah, the, um, I think the thing with communicating with people, at least that I think that I've learned over, over the recent years is that, uh, um, I feel like they really respond well to analogies and ridiculous stories. Um, so they'll be like, Hey, yeah, you told me to, to, uh, look off the cliff and see those little dinosaurs at the bottom of the well or, you know, and, uh, it's just to get them to do with the movement you're trying to get them to do. But I think it's the, you're right. I think it's the fun part. Yeah. Metaphors are, are huge and just kind of like, and I'm going to talk about like intrinsic versus extrinsic queuing.

And, um, that's kind of a big thing. And a lot of, I guess, younger coaches, uh, not that I'm not young, but a lot of like, I guess new, new coaches or new, new therapists. Or movement professionals. It's really easy because for us, it just comes so naturally, like squeeze your glutes or contract this muscle or kind of put this, put your scapula back in the place. Like whatever we normally would use. And you have to find ways. How does this make sense to them? Or even like people that we work with a lot of people with pain problems and like some people, they keep using the same words for what they mean for their pain. And maybe it doesn't really translate to me. They'll be like, Oh, it just feels, Oh, it gets tight there. It gets tight.

Yeah. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking tight. Me, I, there's one guy, quick story. He had Matt, he was a motocross. Uh, I think, I think he, he did the racing. So it was that super cross or whatever. Oh, they, they're, they're pedaling. They're not, they're not motor. No, no. Sorry. He, he, it was on the, on the motorcycles, but it's the ones where they race that super cross or whatever. But they always show about when they win. Cause they do that sidekick, the tail. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At the very end. So I think he was like 30. This is a couple of years ago. And this guy was the coolest guy who worked so hard, but anybody had a massive rotator cuff tear. So every single rotator cuff in his, uh, uh, tendon in his shoulder was like ruptured. So it was huge. He like, like he landed off a huge jump and, uh, arm went every which way. But anyway, I was seeing him for like a long time, like a year. And it took me like months to figure out when this guy would say he would literally just, cause he was like pedal to the metal, like work super hard. Like I'm going to stretch like crazy. And he kept saying like, Oh yeah, it gets, it's getting tight. It's getting tight. And I kept thinking like, Oh, it's just tight. Like we can push through it, like whatever.

And then one time I was looking at him cause he was making faces and he was saying it was tight. And I'm like, when you say tight, what do you mean by tight? He's like, well, I mean, I'm like, do you mean pain? He's like, well, yeah, I mean it's tight. And he was like a lot of pain whenever he said tight. And so I had to recognize that when he said tight, he meant pain. And there's so many other stories like that, but it was just really funny because I was just putting it into my own dialect, I guess you could say, cause to me tight means, Oh, you're fine. You can keep going. Once they said it's painful, maybe we should back off. And he meant like, I'm in a lot of pain, but he was like, Oh, it's tight. He's trying to act cool about it. That was something that I'll never forget. So now I got to make sure that when someone's saying something, what do you really mean by that? You know?

Yeah. I think as a point, there's, there's actually that a case recently was the first time I ever used the, uh, have you heard the, uh, the red, yellow, green approach. Um, so I don't, I haven't really had to use it, but then there was this girl that she, uh, um, she, I mean, she was, she was just in, in pain a lot. And so at first I went to, does it spike your symptom? Does we're doing some loading to spike your symptom or is it still the same dull? Like, is it changing? And, uh, we went to a spike for a while. And then I finally went with yellow cautionary, um, green, and to my surprise, actually, a lot of it was green. It was like, Oh, this is, this is fine. It didn't change anything, but it didn't make it worse. And so we only found one red, but, uh, that, that was a good learning experience for me. Cause I really haven't, I haven't had to do that much, you know?

Yeah. It's, it's so weird how different people, you think you're communicating something that could be so off. It's like keeping those communication lines open is super important. What, um, I'm just, I'm curious your own personal story with kind of how you developed as a PT. Uh, what has changed probably the most over the past? How many years you've been in practice now? About five years. What's when you, when you first started, what's something that you really don't do anymore? Or has anything really dramatically changed or not? I think, I mean, I, I, I'm sure there's been some huge changes. It's, it's tough because stuff doesn't happen really quickly. Just like with, with exercise or rehab, like there's, it's kind of a slow change over time. You, you progress and you get better. Um, I think the biggest thing though, cause the school I went to is really big on assessing movement and movement quality. And I still think that's super important, but I used to be to the point where like, if movement, if movement wasn't what I deemed like almost perfect in my eyes, I would be like, no, no, no, we got to do it this way. Like, or I was very, very, I mean, I, I, I had background of like, um, like the biopsychosocial model, pain science, like understanding how much the social aspects, psychological aspects, fear, all that kind of stuff plays into it. I had that background, but I was still like super, super like weighted towards the biological, the biomedical, um, biomechanic side of things to the point that I would totally still address the, the other stuff, but I was like, almost like too rigid with my understanding of the biomechanic kind of stuff.

So I think I'm, I'm a lot more loose on that now. Um, and I still make mistakes to the point where sometimes I think something's more, um, like someone can get away with more, I guess, movement variability where I should be maybe a little bit more strict about it. Um, but I would say before I made a lot of mistakes where I was, someone maybe might not have been progressing because I was trying so hard to make their movement quality the best it could be. Whereas I should have just been like loading them up more or giving them more difficult exercises and understanding that they probably, their body still could have adapted fine. So I give myself, I try to give myself more room with that. And I feel like now I make less mistakes in that regard where I can let people kind of roll with different movement that might not be like what we would assume is close to perfect. Whereas before I would kind of hold them back a little bit too much sometimes. Okay. I think, uh, we should explore that. I think, I think it's going to be helpful for everybody, but, um, I'll give you a second to think for here. Um, cause I, um, I did a presentation in the day at the chiro school. And so the, the person we were looking at a rotational athlete and it was a right handed thrower and they had a left leg. They weren't loading on the left leg in there. Like say your squat test. Um, and so theory being that, that how are they supposed to post on that leg when they throw reasonably without hurting the shoulder anyways. And so I did a quick squat test as well as some movement just to see if they were really loading on that side or not. And lo and behold, he had some left side, low back pain as well as, as well as some, uh, like anterior front side hip pain as well. And so we reduced that with a couple of correctives and then having squatting in. And a lot of times in the, so in the past, like I checked their squat just to see the looking glass. And, and if it looks like they're dramatically shy enough on side, it's like, well, why, you know, he, maybe it's a threat, maybe it's whatever. And so this person in particular, um, he didn't really shift back that much a little bit, but it wasn't quote unquote perfect. Um, but his symptoms all went away. And so one of the students asked me, are you, are you concerned? He's not squatting perfectly. I'm like, well, no, he's feeling better, you know? And so I, I've made a big problem. I was a big problem with that over the last couple of years as well. It's like, this is the way to do it. This is the perfect thing. Let's strive for that. But if they're feeling better, better, I don't even know if there's a real need. There's asymmetrical people all over the place that don't feel any pain.

Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's so complicated. I mean, it's so simple, but so complicated. So I, I feel, I feel like the trap a lot of people can fall into. And I've talked to some other current students in physical therapy in particular, um, where it's a lot stronger, especially if you're, there's like bubbles of social media and stuff. Right. So, um, I guess I would consider myself in one of these bubbles where like the rehab kind of bubble where a lot of people, it's a good thing, but they're talking really like strongly about like how it's not like there's no such thing as like a perfect movement and like our body's adaptable and that stuff. And that's, that's super important. I feel like for people to understand, but I think it's also sometimes a little bit dangerous for like a new clinician who doesn't really understand maybe biomechanics or kinesiology as well as the, maybe they should, I mean, they still have to learn more about it and really get really good at it, understanding these movements. And they kind of fall to that side almost as like a default of like, Oh no, you can do whatever. Like, like, not like they can do whatever they want, but they're not as detailed as they should be.

And maybe their exam or like trying to change movement to help things. Or like you said, do like, like quote unquote, uh, corrective exercises so they can fall in this trap of like, well, you know what, you're just, you're just scared of the movement and, or you, you have pain. So you're going to move a little differently. Like, let's just kind of work through it. And it's like, it's like, no, no, no, you can do both things. You know, like you need to hone your, I guess your hard skills where you're really getting good at prescribing exercises and variations and working on joint mobility or specific isolated strength or timing, like that stuff still matters. Um, so I think for the newer clinician that the, sometimes that can be a pitfall is kind of like being like, ah, well, that stuff isn't as important as we once thought. So I'm not going to work as hard. Whereas, um, I think some of the older clinicians or more seasoned clinicians are at the point where they've taken so many courses or so many things over the years and they're so stuck on this. Like, I know how things should be moving and I'm going to correct things and all that stuff that sometimes they need more of this. You know what? Sometimes it's not as important as you think, you know? And I know like both of us, we're going to keep learning, right? I'm going to be a lot better even a year from now than I am today. And I still make a lot of, we all are going to make mistakes. It's impossible not to.

Yeah. I think we're going to have to redo this whole conversation in about a year. Isn't that what's cool about our professions though? Like to, to always have things changing. And like, sometimes people are frustrated by that cause they want things black and white. But, um, if it's, everything's black and white, you're going to get pretty bored pretty quickly. So it's kind of fun to imagine seeing the same exact case or respond the same exact way. And like robotic, like recommendations almost. Yeah, I know. You won't believe the amount of, the amount of messages I get a day, either email or on social media where people just, I have this, what do I do? Or here's my imaging results. Um, please help me tell me what to do. And I like, like we talked about with the whole like layman thing, like these people don't know how complicated this stuff can be. And so they're maybe used to going and seeing their physician for five minutes and the physician giving them this complex diagnosis and what they need to be doing, giving them a handout. And so people think that's how it works. Oh, this is your diagnosis. Here's your handout.

How do you think you change that then? Cause I think, um, like that is a tough, it's a tough thing. I'm sure you've, for all the questions you've gotten about random stuff, you've probably already done a post on it, right? And they're just not finding it. Yes. Yes. I did. I did. Um, I did a couple with, I don't know if you're familiar with, uh, Mark Sertica. He's another physical therapist. I've heard a pretty big following on him. I've heard the name. Super smart guy. So we did a couple of posts. We're going to try to do more, but we did one on like, because you see all those social media posts with the, um, the check Mark and the X and, and like, again, people tend to get on both sides of things and argue. Some people are like, Oh, we shouldn't have these. These are horrible because it just makes people think that there's only one right way to move, which I can see their side. Like I get that. I would, I would say I'm biased more towards the other side where I think it's still important for people to like, understand like, Oh, if you're having these symptoms or, or if you're not lifting as much weight or whatever, maybe you should try it this way. But it's really easy for people just to look at a picture and not read the whole thing and just go, Oh, that's the right way to do it. This is the wrong way. So that's where they're coming from. So I get that. But we did some posts, we did some posts on context and we basically like have like, one was like a deadlift and one was like a front squat and like why either one could be right or wrong. And like, here's some of the reasons why this would be right for someone at this specific point of time in their life based on how they're feeling or how they move their anatomy, all that stuff. And why it might be, or I'd say, right. So some of them might, this might be right for some people and it might be wrong for some people. So just to give people an idea of like, Hey, it just depends on you and the assessment is super important. So I can't just give you generic information unless I actually assess you, talk to you, watch you move. And then we can go from there.

So you guys are going to do like a collaborative story or collaborative posts? No, we did a couple of posts already on the, uh, on the, on the deadlift and the front squat. And we're probably gonna do some more exercise in the future. We haven't really talked about it, but I really wanted to do those for a while because I guess people get the wrong message on both sides for like what those posts are trying to convey. And then there's also the other side of maybe some clinicians and coaches, they really do believe like, this is the only way you can do it. And this is the wrong way. And we're trying to be like, no, no, no, that's not really right either.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is a, it is a hard thing. I do agree with you though. We need to have the, uh, we need to have the, the, the skills that, uh, I guess you have to have the necessary framework, how to build a car and then you can vary how you build that car. Um, yeah. And, um, I guess on, on another note too, cause you said the, uh, the check marks thing, I think this is, uh, this is one thing I'm observing, observing right now. There seems like it'd be a, be a really big push to when in doubt, load the hell out of it. And like, I'm a, I'm a fan of loading, but at the same time, like there, I think it depends upon the stage of where the person's at. And I don't know if that's being conveyed or not, you know?

Yeah. It's so hard. I feel like this, this social media thing or the, uh, I guess you can put it content marketing is very tough because we only have a little limited space in one post and we're trying to get that post to reach as many people as possible. And we want it to, we want people to want to click on it so they can read about it, but then we only have 2000 words that we can explain it. Right. We only have so much time in our lives to explain it and it's free content. We're not getting paid to do this. So it's like, there's so many things that can get lost in translation. And that's where like, it's helpful when people reach out and then kind of explain things more to them. And I try to sometimes expound on my one little post in a story. Um, so that worked out a little more. Um, yeah, but if you think about it, I look at, and I get like 9,000 people will look at my story, but then there's like 220,000 people following me. So, so it's a tiny little drop in the bucket of people that are actually maybe reading more about it. And then a lot of them are just looking at real quick and going, Oh yeah. Okay. I like that. Or I don't like that.

They're getting mad or that was something I post and they're not even understanding the context of what I'm actually posting. I was actually going to ask that how, what's the percentage of like angry people you get to happy people? Oh, I think it depends on the social media network that you're on. Um, if you're on Instagram, it's, it's overwhelmingly positive, but then you'll have these people that just like want to rip you apart. And sometimes I don't know if there's having a bad day or sick of seeing other posts like that. And sometimes it's, they might really, really strongly believe that sometimes they, I think they do it to get more exposure themselves. They want you to like fight back with them or something. Um, but I know like on Twitter, it's a lot more clinicians. So there's a lot more like not bickering, but more, I guess, more constructive conversations and people disagreeing with each other. That's what I've heard. I'm not really on there that often. And then Facebook, I just kind of like a back, I don't really go on there that often either, but I just post all my Instagram stuff on there, but I would say probably percentage wise, it's maybe like 5%. Oh, that's not bad at all. Like being angry and I can deal with that.

What about, what about, uh, how many, how many creepers have you had that are just, uh, stalker admirers? Creepers. Um, I don't know. Oh, one, one probably comes to mind right now. You don't, you don't have to, I, you're, you're the way you're smiling. You're thinking, oh yeah, I got that one. There's been a few people that are, I don't know if they're creepers. They're just people that are like big, I guess it's kind of weird to say that, but like fans. And they're always like all the time sending me messages and stuff, but it's not like in a weird way. It's more just like, Hey, I really like your stuff or the, or people that I don't think they speak English.

Every single time I post, every time I post a post and then I'll post it on my story to let people know when they post stuff and they'll like, they'll send me like a smiley face and a thumbs up. But they do it like every single day and like, but they're from like Albania or something and they don't speak English. So like it's, that's kind of cool though. I guess it just kind of sound like, Hey, I appreciate this. I have had some, I have had some weird ones that, uh, I had to tell my wife, like, like, it's kind of weird as you can imagine on, on social media. Sometimes I get these weird posts from random females, but that doesn't, that's rarely happened. And then I'll just delete those right away. I'm a married guy. I don't, I don't need that stuff in my life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's funny. I think, um, yeah, I, I like my social media following is not, not good. Probably cause I don't enjoy it either. But the, uh, I think the ones that are, that are, that are funny is, I mean, I know that it's probably the way they're communicating, but the ones that seem like it come from, you know, the Middle East or something like, they always have sir or, or, or madam. And I don't know, is that supposed to be a cultural thing? Yeah. I don't like, you can always tell like, Oh, I know this is from over there somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's funny. It's like a right away, like, sir, please help me with this or sir. I, it must be a cultural thing. If you're, if you're addressing someone you don't know, I mean, like, it's not a bad, no, it's not a bad habit to have, but it's just like you said, like, you know, like, I don't even have to look at their picture when they say, sir, I know there's somewhere you think it's usually in, if anybody is this nationality, I apologize if I'm butchering this, but I think it seems like it's mostly people from like India. Yeah. Yeah. East region. I get a mostly India that will say sir before everything. And I think you can tell Owen and it's also like a, like a high school kid. Hey man, tell me what to do with like, they're just very quick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Like almost like, Hey, uh, help me out with this. I got to track me demanding it. Like, yeah, I got to do this. And I don't know if they mean to come off like that, but maybe they're just so used to this culture where they're just like, Hey, I know this works. Like send me a message back real quick. Yeah. And people that are a little bit older are a little bit more like polite about like, Hey, hope you respond to this, but I got this problem. Do you ever respond to the kids and say, well, can you please call me sir first? I should though. That'd be fun. He teach him some manners and then teach me more respectful. Yeah. Here's my pamphlet on learning how to be respectful. You little kid. I actually had one guy, I had this one guy, um, send me a message and he, I mean, if he's listening to this, uh, I apologize, but, uh, he sent me a message and I didn't get back to him because the, the, the inbox, especially on social media gets so blown up, um, with just messages all the time, just people asking for help or whatever. But I had gone on a vacation and I was just kind of burned out of social media. So I wasn't responding to a lot. And I was like, I think I was like a hundred, 175, 150 deep in my like unread, like haven't even looked at them like ever, like new messages. And so I finally, I was trying to go through them, like just getting through, like blasting through them one day. And this guy, this guy needed help or something. He lives close to me.

He's like, Hey, it's been a month. Uh, I can't believe it took you this long to get back to me. And like, he was like, like pissed off. And I was like, Hey man, like, I apologize. But like, and he's like, I'm a busy guy. Like I was serious about this. I'm like, I know I'm busy too. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. I've, um, when people come in to see me in person, like, so like, I don't oftentimes have like friends and family come in, but like when they have my cell phone, they'll start texting me this stuff. Right. Or they'll call me. And like, I learned this from my dad. He's a, he's a dentist. And so he would have people come up to him at family parties and stuff and say, Hey, I got this thing in my tooth. And he's like, make an appointment. The light's better there, you know? And so call the office. And so when people like text me, I just tell them, dude, look, like, I'm going to be honest with you. You're talking to the person that is the least efficient scheduling person in the world. Like I won't put it down and I won't be there unless just go to the online system, please. Like, yeah. But I try to frame it to where it's like, if, if you're inquiring about that, please do that because it's not really, it's not going to happen this way. Not because I'm trying to be a jerk. It's just, I'm not good at it. So, yeah. Or you're, I try to have a form on, on my, my simple way website and my, my pages like, Hey, like fill out this form. If you're interested with working me, if you have any tips, but a lot of people just want free, either free advice or, or just like you to give them the quick fix real quick. Right. And I don't, I don't know if they don't realize, or they're just kind of putting a shot in the dark. It's like, okay, if I have all, if I had like hundreds of people every day sending me messages and I'm doing, and I am like already busy, it's really hard to get, even get back to you. Not that I'm trying to say like, Oh, I'm so busy, but like, I can't, I don't have time for you, but it's just, it's just tough. It's the quality of life goes down. If that's all you're doing all day, you don't have somebody that's like dedicated doing that for you. So I usually, I actually have some automated responses.

Oh really? I try not to make it like too like informal or like, not like I'm trying to actually converse with somebody, but I'll just have this, especially if I can kind of tell like, Hey, this is someone that needs help, but they want a quick fix. I'll just say something like, sorry. It's basically a message that says something like, sorry, I really can't give you the best advice without actually doing an exam. If you'd like to schedule something, fill out this form. And it's just like a really quick, and I know sometimes it probably comes across like, Oh, he just had like this, he just pressed a button, which is what I'm doing. But like, it helps me get through a lot more messages. And it's like, maybe for every 50 of those messages I send like five people will like be like, Oh yeah, actually I'm interested in that. And then sometimes those go all the way through to becoming clients or, or they go, Oh, I can't afford that right now. Or thanks for at least reaching back to me. But, um, that's a lot more efficient than every single time being like typing it out. Like, Hey, I really can't give you the best advice unless you work with me. Like if I have these automated messages, it really makes things a lot better.

And those are constantly been changing over time to make them more efficient and I guess more well-spoken. So I don't come across like a robot when I'm responding to people. I think that is probably an art with, um, I know I've responded to a lot of emails this way. And like I used to have a template and then I started realizing it could be a little bit more personal, but then I realized it's kind of, it doesn't sound bad. It's like a waste of time because they don't always respond back. And exactly. Cause you can't really do anything for them, you know? Yeah. But it is an art to convey that message of legality, versus, you know, like I do care, but you know, so I'm sure you had, I do, I do want to help you.

But at the same time, like I don't have time to sit here and like problem solve. And, and it's always, I don't know if it's, I don't know why, but if you're like in any other field, like if you're like a lawyer or I don't know, like any, anything else where it's like a service involved, people like don't expect you to give them like free stuff, like free information. And like, they're like, if I need your help, I know I'm going to pay for it. And I don't know why I think a lot of people kind of, I don't know if it's because we're, we're giving out information online and stuff that they feel like, Hey, give me more, um, to help me out with my specific problem. And I think even as like movement professionals, a lot of times we're like, if it's, if we think it's like a small thing, like where we feel like sometimes obligated, like, Oh, I don't want to just say like, you have to pay for that service. But at the same time, it's like, you only have a limited amount of time. I mean, to be honest with, I try to, I've had to kind of make myself more honest with it and be like, Hey, I don't give out like a free, like they'll send me videos and like, Hey, can you check out this out and tell me what's wrong? And like, I'm like, I could, but like that's taking away from all this other time I could be doing stuff. And it's not like I have all this time on my plate.

So like, if you want me to do that, it does cost something. And I, I don't know why, but it's still, I still feel sometimes awkward saying that when something like online, but I'm like, I can't feel that way because time is money. And this is my, and I'd tell people like, this is my job. If this was like, I did something else. I'm like, Oh, this is kind of a fun thing I do on the side. And I'm not getting paid for it normally. Like, okay, maybe, but this is literally my job. So like, I can't just be like giving all this free stuff out specifically for people all the time. Maybe Instagram needs to implement something like for you to get you to respond. They have to donate a dollar per response.

That's actually not a bad idea. Yeah. I mean, I mean, again, it sounds kind of, I guess it can sound kind of greedy in some ways, but like it, it takes a lot of time, especially as your following gets bigger. It's like, sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I don't want to go through these right now. But I, but then it backs up. And then the, I think the messages start to disappear after like four weeks or something. So I'm like, Oh shoot, I got to get on these. Yeah. What's just one more thing, you know, and you could, you could easily be, you know, surfing, growing your hair out, but you're making this Afro, this white boy Afro. Yeah. How do you decide which did your part naturally go that way? It kind of look, you remind me of a cartoon character with it's higher on one side right now. Are you calling me Johnny Bravo? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. So my, my hair kind of naturally grows out to the side. So I, I, I guess I'm transitioning from being a young man to an older man. So it used to be like spike, spiky hair straight up, like the whole thing. And I've slowly kind of flattened it and it was straight. And then I did the faux hawk thing for a few years. And then now when it gets longer, I actually like comb it like to the side. I guess I look more quote older, more professional, but I kind of like to keep it somewhat young looking.

You can really, you can probably still frost the tips. I think it'll be okay. You still look young. Hey, they're frosted with gray. Yeah. I see that. You're in the gray in there. You're like an older version of, uh, um, what was that? What was that band that had like the sensitive guy? And it was, it was on MTV. Uh, God, it wasn't making the band. You didn't see this thing. They did together. Oh, together. Oh, I have no idea. Oh, you should boy band. Yeah. It was, it was like a, it was a boy band. The MTV made a parody series about boy bands. And so they would gather all the, so you're like the sensitive guy. If you go look up Chad, the sensitive guy, the sensitive guy. Yeah. So, uh, my wife would agree. There you go. That's how you got her. Yeah.

Pull the sensitive charm out. Yeah. So actually, so back on that response thing, um, I I've done this over, over the years and, um, I was thinking about because I, I respond to enough people via email through my website that I got really frustrated that, that, I mean, I don't want to say thank you. They would just not respond. It was like, you're talking to a ghost and you take the time to write the email and just provide a little bit of your, uh, of guidance, whether it be a video or like just go somewhere. And so I started creating like, uh, kind of imagine like a tiny book, like a two page PDF that guides them through YouTube videos that I demonstrate video things that I typically do for these things, um, that don't always work, but sometimes they do. And so I kind of considered it as like, it's, it's like a book they could buy. I'm not really leading them medically, but at the same time, if they buy it, I got paid for a response. Um, that's the kind of route I was thinking about going more aggressively with it because it is like, you're right. It's like you want to help people, but it's hard to, you can't, you got to get paid somehow. Yeah. You know, it's taking time out of your day that you could be doing other things and like money isn't everything, but like when it's your job and you're, you want to get compensated for your expertise, you, you have to own that. And I, again, I think it's a lot, it's hard for a lot of people, especially when we're like these very like, Hey, I'm going to help you. I'm, I'm like a do-gooder. Like I'm all about helping people. It's like a service profession. It's sometimes tough for us to be like, Hey, I need to get compensated for what I know. And some people are very cool about that. I had, I had the new client that I just got from Australia and I talked to her about her problem on the phone.

It was more like a, Hey, let's figure out if we're right for each other to work together. And she was like, well, in any case, like I'll send you the money. Cause I've learned so much from your posts. Like you need to be compensated for the time you put into it. And I was like, Oh, I really appreciate that. Like saying that and not just like expecting to get this stuff and then be like, all right, peace out. I got my info, you know? Yeah. That was, that was pretty cool. I mean, obviously she's paying to be a client, but like she, the way that she put it across is, I guess, flattering in the way that it was like, Oh, I appreciate you. Yeah. That is, that is really nice. It's a very considerate of her. Yeah. Very considerate. Very, very sweet lady.

She'd be the considerate one in the, that'd be, wouldn't be a boy band anymore. So the considerate one, not the sensitive one. That's me. I own that title. Yeah. She'd be the one that goes and shakes everyone's hands after they visit the concert. Oh yeah. Thank you. Thank you for coming out. Let me spend like three hours here. Yeah. Um, as we start to wrap up on things, is there anything that you want to cover? Um, the, anything that you're interested in currently you're like that you're starting to learn? Hmm. You don't have to give me a second to think about that. Yeah. No worries. Um, I know that it's a, it's a constant. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Oh no, no. I was going to fill the void, but you filled it. Oh yeah.

Fill it real quick. I got, I can hold that thought. Okay. Um, this is just a funny side story and, um, I don't know how it is on you. I thought I, I thought I was, I thought that PTs were aware what DCs do and vice versa. And then I went to a DNS seminar and I was with these two PTs eating lunch, right? They're both about 50. And so they, they looked at me and they're like, so how are you going to use this? And I'm like, what do you mean? They're like, don't you spend like five minutes with people? And I'm like, no, like we, no, no longer. And then finally I said, how are you going to use this? Don't you just ice pack in and put people on the table? And they're like, no, we don't do it. I'm like, see, you spent only five minutes with people. Well, they thought I was this, these, like you just like a stereotypical chiropractor that adjusts and like pushes them out the door. But you know, it's like as movement based and corrective exercise and loading, it's like, I mean, what do you probably spend 30 minutes with a person, right? Oh yeah. And so they didn't understand how it would utilize something.

I mean, I went, I went, I grew up going to, to the chiropractor. I had some great chiropractors, but it's definitely different. Um, I think a lot of the profession and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess back in the late nineties, early two thousands, at least the, I mean, I know there's still, there's still a huge range of chiropractors, the same thing with physical therapists, but, um, a lot more, a lot less exercise based, a lot more just like the manual work and the, the manipulations and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I think I would imagine that everybody back in the eighties did more manual.

Yeah. Yeah. Every, every profession. Yeah. That was like the big, the big thing, but it's, it's cool to see how, I guess this is, uh, uh, I guess a confession like in, in school, in school. Cause that was all I knew about, about chiropractors, um, getting into school. And then there's like, and I'm, I'm sure you've probably seen it from your side too, is like, there's this whole like inner, like, I guess, conflict between like physical therapists, ah, chiropractors. I don't really, they're full of crap or chiropractors being like, ah, physical therapists don't know what to talk about or whatever. And so I, we kind of had that, I guess we had some conversations and when I was in school and I kind of had that thought for a while and then like, obviously as you go out into the field and you like see other chiropractors and other movement professionals, you're like, oh, they do a lot of the similar stuff we do. And that I'm sure they have different approaches that they use that we don't use and vice versa, but it all, it all can help people. So I'm a lot more open to that. And I have a lot of chiropractors that I look up to. And so it's, it's kind of cool how we all can kind of mesh things and work together. And I love to see the, the more exercise based and manual chiros versus the, the old school, like chiropractors that don't do any of that stuff. And same thing with the physical therapists. It's very cool to see how the professions are changing.

Yeah. I feel like, um, I, I, I knew that with speaking to you, I thought we'd have a lot of, a lot in common. Um, I've talked to Aaron Horschig too, squat university guy. Um, he's, he's kind of like, like, I feel like we're just mirroring each other. You know, we're all like, like we all got the same kind of ground and belief system on working with people, you know? Totally. And it's, it's actually funny. Uh, one last thing about that is like, I get people all the time that come in and like when I took my, uh, my residency and my fellowship, my fellowship was, it was orthopedic and sports, but it was like, we also had like a lot of, um, manual therapy, like higher level manual therapy stuff. So like for the whole body. And so people come in and sometimes if they have something where I think maybe some, some mobilizations or, uh, manipulation therapy would be helpful. Um, they're like, wait, hold on. Like, should I go to a chiropractor?

And I'm like, well, I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to like downplay chiropractor. It's just like, oh, I can do the same thing. But it's like, I'm like, well, we can do a lot of the same techniques. I mean, if this doesn't work for you by all means, but like, let's try it out. And some people are just so confused, like, wait, physical therapists can do this. Yeah. And so it's just, it's really funny. And then I've had people tell me the same thing. They go, they think that if they're going to the chiropractor, all they're going to get are manipulations of their spine. Like they're like, they like, and, and I get, that's like a large selling point for a long time in the profession, but like, it's just funny that, and I'm like, you know, you can still go to the chiropractor.

There's a lot of them that's exercise and know this stuff really, really well, but they think that's like, it's only manipulation of the spine. Like maybe our professions did a really good job of marketing, like a single, like single factor approach, like, like PTs get ACLs and post-trauma and the chiropractors get backs and cracks. Um, yeah, it's like if someone has like neck or back pain, the first thing on their mind is like, I got to go to the chiropractor. Right. And then if someone gets like, I injured myself and I like, I hurt my knee really bad. I need to, I know I probably need to exercise. They go, I need to go to physical terms, you know? And it's like, you can actually mix that up. Yeah. And you can, I'm kind of jealous of massage shivers actually, cause they get the muscle pain and God, that'd be so much easier. Right. Well, I guess backs are easy too. Um, yeah, I don't know. You're going to recover pretty quickly. You know, like this is okay. It's not a big deal. You're all right. I got doms, man. Okay. Just lay there for two days.

Give it a couple of days. Actually come see me three times a day for massages and, uh, I'll, I'll heal you right up. It only take me two or three days. Yeah. Right. I, I guarantee you'll be better in three days. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, you know, something on that same note is like just kind of, uh, assuming a certain profession is good at one thing is, so I was on a run one time and there was these two ladies behind me. And so like one lady was talking about how she, um, she's like, well, today I'm going to go to Pilates cause you need to get strength. And then afterwards I need to get flexible. So I'm going to go to yoga and I'm like, man, that is like, I'm glad I ran it. This was insightful actually. Right. Yeah. I need these specific.

Actually, I hear that all the time too. Same thing. Like I need to work on my core. I'm going to go to my Pilates or not that, not that there's not a great way, way to work on your trunk strength, but it's just, it's just funny. People like they put everything into like this night and neatly, neatly packaged box. And I guess to go on a tangent, I know I keep going on tangents, but it's fun to go on tangents. Um, I think that's one thing. And I get fired up about this a lot of times. I feel like a lot of the PT profession has sucked for a really long time with marketing ourselves. Chiropractors have done a great job. And I think you, and I think you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard from some friends that are chiropractors is you get a lot more, you guys get a lot more schooling or classes on like marketing.

We don't get a lot. Is that wrong? No. So actually it's funny there. Well, I don't know what school they went to, but there was a, I just interviewed someone the other day that he's at one of the schools in Portland for chiropractic. And so they have a business course there that it's like, it's on their curriculum. And I think it's, I think it's virtual or something, but anyway, so he said, I said, wow, that's really cool. Like who goes? And he says, nobody. And, and so there's, there's not, um, I think I, what I personally believe is that if someone's of like the more businessy mindset, they've, they seem to become a chiropractor and they're just like, I don't want to say salesy, but they're very convenient. They're very convincing and they're open to speaking and blah, blah, blah.

Um, yeah, it might be out of necessity too, because the chiropractic profession has been a lot more throughout the years. Like you're, you're, you're independent business owner. You can get an office, you have to sell yourself or you're not seeing clients. So like by default, you have to get more training on it. Whereas like a lot of physical therapists going to school and they don't, it's not even on their radar. They're like, Oh, I'm going to go work at this clinic or I'm going to work at this hospital and they don't have to do any marketing. They're going to get referrals from physicians. And so the ones that actually go out and do their own thing, either they weren't thinking they're going to do that. So then they're like, Oh shit, I need to like, I need to go learn about this stuff. Um, or like, like I said, like they don't do that. So they don't really worry. Or they go into this hospital setting or this under somebody else and they don't worry about the marketing. And then they're like, Oh, you know what? I hate this.

I want to do my own thing. And then they're like, I don't know how to market myself though. Yeah. So they have to kind of figure that out on the fly. I would, I would agree. I think there's probably more, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think there's more job opportunities for PTs as young PTs and chiros are. Um, yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's, it's just, it's cause it's cause of insurance and physicians having, I mean, and again, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like for the, for the most case or for the most cases, I feel like most physician like, uh, MDs and DOs and stuff, they, um, they are, they tend to bat bad mouth chiropractors from what I've heard. They'll be like, Oh no, I don't go to those chiropractors. Like go to physical therapy. And like, they're very, just like, you need to go to physical therapy. And so that's been the way it's been for so many years. So it's really easy to get patients as a, and having more job openings as a young physical therapist.

Cause there's always more needed. Cause there's always people getting injured, going to physician as their first, as their first line provider and then sending them to physical therapy. I don't know what the, uh, what the rough stats are with, uh, PTs working on like US, US, US population. I thought, I thought chiropractic was around like, we only see like 20% or something. It's like not a lot. Um, and so, uh, but the, so, um, yeah, with, with, with MDs, like in my personal experience, and I know there's like, I've had some that are just really like DOs, MDs, which are really, really open. Um, and they, when they first meet you, they're, they, sometimes they get a knee jerk reaction. They realize then you're, you're, you're not going to do what they're afraid of. And then they, and then they, they're open to it. But I think also at the same time is that, uh, I don't know if PTs have this problem or not, but like as chiropractic, I think, I think there's a lot of fear of people going to one cause they're going to, you're going to rip their head off. And so it's weird. I think there's that other stereotype that is like, if you're a, if probably if you're an MD, it's like, well, this person's clearly afraid. I'm not going to like, maybe, maybe the MD believes that too. Like that they're also afraid of that same thing. And so they're like, well, I don't want to scare the person. I'll send them that way.

You know? So we have that actually on my website, it says no bone cracking, no unnecessary treatment, long-term treatment plans and no quackery. Cause I think those are the major fears, you know? Because people, people sometimes unknowingly associate the profession with that, unfortunately. Yeah. And I think that's a, that's a probably a public stereotype is going to stay for a very long time, but, but you guys, you guys get the ice and heat and stretch. And so I mean, people can't see me. I'm shaking my head really big right now because, and unfortunately that's our own fault for the, in years past, that was, you can get reimbursed for that by insurance.

Just, and back, I mean, from what I've heard in the nineties, it was like, you could put them on electric stimulation, stretch them, give them a hot pack or a cold pack, and you can bill for that and make good money in a private practice, which is insane. Um, we're now insurance companies have got a lot smarter about that. Uh, we're not going to. I bet Glen Ivy out there by you probably started as a, as a PT clinic, just mud bath bill for it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right. And then they, uh, they started marketing to higher end clients. Yeah. How do you, I still don't get how you, how do you market lane and mud to people and charge them an arm and a leg? Like that's, you say the mud is therapeutic and it'll make you, it's a fountain of youth.

I got free mud. I can, I can put some water in some mud. Yeah. Hey, go in my backyard. Um, as we, as we start, I know I said, start to finish up a while ago. We got tangent in. 20 minutes ago. Yeah. Um, how can everyone reach you? And, uh, yeah. Uh, the best way to reach me would be my email, personal email. Um, that's just my name, Caleb Burgess. I don't know if you're going to have that in the show notes or anything. Caleb Burgess is dpt at gmail.com. And then, um, if you want to see my stuff or send me a message that hopefully doesn't get lost, like we talked about earlier, um, you can, you can send me a message on Instagram and that is Dr. Caleb Burgess with a period between the doctor and after the period between Dr. and Caleb and between Caleb and Burgess. Um, and then Facebook, if you don't have an Instagram, Facebook is the same thing. Um, and then Twitter, good luck if I'll be on there. Um, has no periods, no periods in between just Dr. Caleb Burgess is a run on word. Okay. Oh, and then my website, my website too is, is Dr. Caleb Burgess.com.

I gotta, I gotta look that one up real quick. So the, so the website, I, uh, I haven't really posted much on there. It's basically more as like a, a lead funnel for like people to work with me and just kind of see who I am and what I do. But, um, I, I wanted to blog, start putting blog posts a long time ago and I, I've actually written two, but I need to like go back and like edit them because I wrote them like two years ago and, uh, I need to make sure that they're looking good. But, um, so you're not really going to find a lot of information on there other than like, Oh, here's who I am and what I do.

I like it. I like your website, but then how come you didn't include the frosted tips on this picture. I wish, which picture is, is just me with the, the polo on or something, right? Yeah. You got a polo and a very authoritative, like, uh, you weren't a Garmin, so it can't be that old. Yeah. The crossed arms, the classic crossed arms pose. Yeah. I like that you didn't do an upward facing camera tilt though. Like the really authoritative, like I'm standing over you type of thing. I'm looking down at you. Yeah. Yeah. Just a little bit, just enough of the chin up in the air. I don't know your eye height right there. This looks good. It's hard. I'm six five.

So it's, I had to find a tall enough. I had to really crank the tripod up. Actually in that picture, I was in a squat position. I'm not even joking. I remember that. I was in like a half squat and I was trying to like not look like I was squatting, but I had to, or it would have been way too authoritative. I see a vein on your temple, so I can see some exertion happening there. Yeah. I was a little out of shape. Well, right on. Thanks so much for being on. This was fun. Yeah, it was awesome. It was just a nice little chat. Nice. Thanks so much, Dr. Caleb Burgess, Burgess, Burgess, Burgess, B-U-R-G-E-S-S, Dr. Physical Therapy. I'll put his, um, I'll put his contacts in the show notes, by the way, everybody. But, uh, as you can see in there, I think, um, we as a PT and, uh, chiropractic professions, we have, we do have a lot in common. Um, if we learn the same kind of stuff going through school and coming out. And so, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm actually really happy that I think, uh, like reaching out to him because we live actually probably about, I'd say 30 minutes away from each other. And so I've found personally through, um, after you get out of school, it's, it's hard to make new friends. And so I thought we got along really well. And, uh, Caleb, I, I, I'm looking forward to meeting you in person. And so, all right, everyone, uh, thanks so much for listening to the show.

And again, if you have not already, please subscribe, scroll down, hit the subscribe button, and please leave a review, leave a review and share this with a friend. If you thought, Hey, I really, I think, I think Joe would really like this podcast. Please share with them. And cause like, like I said, in the very beginning, I'll be honest with you. I don't make any money off this podcast. Maybe I will one day, but currently I don't make a single cent and it takes a lot of time out of my day, out of my week, uh, to do this. Um, I am fortunate to, to meet great people like Caleb, but at the same time, it's, it's, uh, it's a passion project. And so to really verify that we're making a big change in the movement profession, please do share it with a colleague, whether that be a PT, a DC, a trainer, or just a friend who maybe wants to learn more about the subject matter at hand. So I would thank you so much for doing that.

And as always, leave people better in how you found them. If you're dating, date an Eagle Scout. I'll talk to you next week.