Piriformis-area hip pain and the five-step rehab pyramid

My question would be like, I mean, coming from a student that hasn't been on the real world yet, and I understand that, you know, like systems where you're talking to other practitioners for ideas and, you know, case studies that you haven't seen before, but coming from a student's standpoint, they might see that as very weird. You're making friends with your competitor. You know, you're taking food out of my own mouth. What was that relationship for? And do you see, would you say that it helped you? You're listening to the Restoring Human Movement podcast, where movement experts discuss the latest evidence-based practices to help you and your clients move with mastery.

And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey, I'm Sebastian Gonzales, your host for the Restoring Human Movement podcast. Thanks for joining the Movement Movement. If this is your first time, welcome to the show. You have missed a lot. You have missed a lot back in the archives. So please go to the old archives and listen to the old show. This show is about improving the communication between doctor and patient, really improving patient outcome. So what we do on this show is hopefully very general in regards to conversation. And it's something that everybody can enjoy and hopefully just have a good time.

So as you see, I have a couple other people on today. This is Raul and Brandon from the Strength Rehab podcast. They interviewed me, and I thought I would share that interview. Obviously, I'm speaking most of the time, but at least you can get a good snippet about what their podcast is going to be like. So their podcast is great. They started quite a bit ago. They're into episode 30 or so, so they're getting more seasoned all the time. So that is Strength Rehab podcast. Now, again, if it's your first time in the show, I tend to encourage you guys to listen to a little bit about my story, who I am, although you're going to learn through a lot through this podcast probably.

I'd like you to like me as a human so you can go along with this journey about learning with me. And as Raul and Brandon have kind of said is that a podcast is a learning experience even for the host, and so we continue to learn stuff every time we interview somebody. So follow along this journey with me and hopefully improve your clinical outcome as well as your knowledge base. So we'll get right into that short story, and then we'll start right in with the show. So I had an idea years ago about an app that we should probably have on all the phones, or at least Apple should start patching this thing, at least for iPhone, because I use an iPhone and I don't really care for Android.

But I would like something called the Oh Shit app, which basically, after you do a text message and it auto-corrected for you, you sent to the wrong person, you do, oh shit, and you just kind of pull it back. So it's like pretty much every text has a 15-second lag time, or you can alter how much lag time you want to have. Maybe you want a minute or more. But I think they used to have that with emails. I've seen they have it on Instagram. You can pull something back before someone sees it. And I think we should kind of have the same thing for text messages. We tend to respond to them so quickly, I'm sure we can say something that we regret or we say to the wrong person.

So if someone can use that idea, feel free to give them royalties. This is, I guess, documentation that I had the idea first. But please patch it into our standard phones. It would be really nice to have that. Let's get into the show. What do you guys want to talk about? You know how students know a lot, but they don't know how to put it together, like on a system. So I think that will help. Okay, cool. And whatever else. Yeah, so realistically, the majority of our listeners are students. And they're all asking generally the same questions on what am I going to be doing when I get out of practice or get into practice?

What's the game plan? And I think you can calm a lot of minds by just kind of giving your experience. And once again, the system that he referenced just earlier. Okay, sounds good. Awesome. Let's do this. Easy. This is easy. Yeah, so he's going to go ahead. Well, he already pressed the button. He's going to ask you just to introduce yourself so people have a good understanding of who you are. And then we'll just flow from there. Okay. Awesome. Let's do this. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, sure. I'm Sebastian. Nickname's Seb, though. But if you say Seb to people, they'll call you Jeff or Tom or some other.

I have no idea why they do. You know, like when you go to get a coffee, it's like, what's your name? Tom. Just put Tom. I mean, you're going to put Tom anyway. Yeah, so I'm a chiropractor and I practice in Huntington Beach, California. So I've been practicing on my own for, God, it's been probably 11 years now. I went to SCU, graduated in 2008. I was second in my class. I like to say that because number one, had to speak. Number two, smart enough to not have to speak. And I don't say to brag. It's just I just want people to know that I do have a good education foundation. So I don't think I'm a dumb guy, although I like to dumb things down.

But yeah, that's kind of the most about me. I like to, you know, I like to lift weights and play baseball, really. So that's my thing. I'm with you on that one. So why Huntington Beach? Are you originally from there? I grew up in a neighboring city, Fountain Valley. It's like the sister city. Huntington Beach is just a little bit, it's basically like my parents still live, you know, two miles away from me. It's funny, though, like, so I have friends that live in Fountain Valley close to my parents. And so like during the summertime, they're like, hey, you want to go down to the beach? It's like 12 o'clock, right?

And I'm like, why? It's foggy, you know? And they're like, no, it's sunny. Like, really, you get over towards that area that since the freeway is there and there's lots more concrete, it's like, it's a different climate. So, but yeah, that's why I'm still close. It's, I could have moved. I could have moved. I see Breckenridge on your shirt. I thought about moving to Colorado, but. Colorado's great. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. How does your clinic look like and your treatment? We know you're different. I mean, I know you're different. You're more of a movement-based guy. So if you could talk a little bit about that.

Sure. So the clinic is about, it's about 1,600 square feet. I didn't start that way, but that's what it is now. And even the last office I was in, I got upgraded to, like, they moved me. So they had to give me something equal or comparable. So the last one is like, I think it was 1,400. So there's about a 500 square foot gym in the front, which is, there's no personal training and stuff going on. It's just like for clinical setting or for subletters that I have. We have a couple of lifting platforms. We have a rack. We have bumper plates, kettlebells. And honestly, I know that listeners are like, oh, that's a lot of shit.

You don't need all that. You can get away with just kettlebells. If you're going to go the route of, like, using bumper plates and barbells, it's mainly just, like, I don't teach back squats unless they ask me. So it's more of just a teaching area, but you get to dial to. There's one, two, there's really only, like, three treatment rooms. I don't spend a lot of time in the exam room or treatment room other than to examine. But on the first day, usually an exam becomes, like, after about 30 minutes, it becomes, hey, let's go out in the weight room. Let's just do something out there. And that's where we finish and that's where we start the next time.

But I have two renters right now and a podcast area, really. So it's a nice ebb and flow. Everybody's got, like, when you walk in, we kind of talk to each other about, hey, I don't care if it's your client or not. You know, say hello. Be a friendly person. Make sure to take care of everybody. And then don't use the entire space because there's, like, three of us, four of us out in the weight room area at one time. It's, like, you don't need someone to do, you know, like, push-ups there and then, like, goblet squats over there. It's, like, keep them in their square, you know? How did you know that you mentioned that you didn't start off with 1,600 feet, but what was that objective goal or that moment where you're, like, I need to upgrade and get a bigger space?

Yeah, that's – I kind of use – and this is probably going to be bad because I know that you should be more organized than this. But I kind of knew around 20 people a week consistently – sorry, 20 sessions a week consistently that I would be okay with the rent that I was looking at. And I – it wasn't even, like, one month of 20 people plus a week. It was, like, I had to convince myself it was, like, a year, you know? And so, I was pretty busy, at least for, you know, considering. And at that time, my rent was, like, $400. So, I jumped it from that to 23. And, like, I even held – like, I got an office that was too big for me.

The 14 was too big. And even now, I can get away with just a room. And, like, I literally have car parts, like, fenders and shit in my closet in there. I don't need all this room. So, I can get away with much less space. But, yeah, it was kind of scary going to the new spot. But I thought that I was going to have an associate doctor or, like, people who reach out to rent. That is the hardest thing. Like, I posted on every Cairo, like, forum and school classified to try to get someone to rent. Five years, I could not – I carried that extra rent. So, I think if everybody's thinking about – like, you better know a lot of people who are willing to actually put money down.

Like, I had people all through – like, I had people get to the point where I'm doing a detailed lease for them and they pull the plug. Like, I think that happened, like, four times. They all pulled the plug. And, finally, I just said, look, I'll be honest with you. Everybody pulls the plug after they got to sign – before they sign the dotted line. Are you going to – like, are we good or are we good, you know? And so, they just never call back, you know? So – Hey, it's less time. Yeah, we weed them out. Yeah, I would – if everyone's looking for, like, space, either you go in and do a space share with someone who actually has, like, a real business, not, like, someone who's like, I just want to work once a week and rent this room.

Like, because those ones are – they'll ditch out on you quick. Or you just get something that carries you and then tell you – until you want to graduate up. Yeah. So, when it comes to actually subleasing or having these people that might not necessarily be directly representing you because they have their own little side business within your facility, what's that conversation look like? Because you did say that, hey, you need to have, you know, that happy face when you're meeting – some of that may not be your client. So, how do you set those guidelines and what are those guidelines in specific?

Well, so, like, first off, like, being in an office with other people is like living with people. And you don't want to just rent to anybody and you don't want to live with anybody. So, it's the same kind of thing as getting a roommate. You have to have an understanding, meet a few times. And in regards to rent, I tell them, you know, I'm not going to baby you. I'm not going to look at your, like, at your income statements. I don't care. Like, just put the money on my desk. You know, like, it's not a hard thing. Like, I got to pay my rent. You pay your rent. Just be an adult. Just put it on the desk and won't have any problems.

They get keys to the office. Pick it up. Just like – really, I think we just think of it like a house. I think, like, you'll probably formulate a lot of the rules. But, yeah, just when it comes to the weight room area, which is a little bit more complicated, is programming. And so, one of the people really likes to use a sled. And so, we have room to push a sled. But it would negate the possibility of someone else doing other things in, like, not just a strip because it's not just a straight up and down, like, they're pushing the sled that way. They're pushing it at a diagonal. And so, someone else might do loaded carries.

And it's like, okay, so where are they going to go? They're going to follow the sled or they're going to go down the hallway, which is another strip of space. So, it's just being mindful of, hey, are you using the sled? Because I got to get someone to do loaded carries. And they're like, oh, okay. So, I'm creative enough where I can then not use a sled to do the same thing. And so, everybody's creative enough. So, how has your treatment evolved from when you started or graduated to where you're at right now? Because I remember in your old, old podcast, you mentioned that you did a lot of ART. But right now, you barely do it.

So, how did that evolve and why? Yeah. So, there was probably the point, like, I wrote about this and I wrote a book on, I called it I Will Beat Back Pain. And so, me and Cody D-Mac were, we used to live and work really close to each other. So, he was in Costa Mesa, which is probably, like, he's basically, he'd be, like, my direct competitor. And so, we met up. Like, we'd meet, I'd say, probably monthly. Pizza, beer, you know, bullshit. You know, good friends, still talk today. But he didn't live here anymore. And so, we started just talking about Kay's presentation. And finally, like, he swears that he didn't say this, you know.

But, like, so, we were drinking all these, they have these beer called mongos. And mongos are, like, an 8%. And he's, I mean, he's, like, 250, probably. He's, like, I'm, like, 150. But he drinks them quick. Hey, get another mongo over here, you know. And so, like, I would just get blitzed, right. And so, finally, I would just, like, I think there's one day I would always have these questions about these frickin' back cases, right. And so, I was, like, how much do you think you know about backs that I don't know? And he's, like, 25%. Like, you only know 25% of what I know. So, no, I think he said 15% or something.

And then, so, now he says, I didn't say 15, I said 50. And I think, whatever, you know. But either way, as I started to learn some other things, like, I was not familiar with McGill's. I didn't know McKinsey's, you know. And I would just only tissue work back cases, which worked for some of them, but not the acutes, not the sub-acutes quite as much. Chronics, it worked much better. But, yeah, it was, at that point, it was, like, huh, if this methodology works with these cases, what else does it work with? And so, it just started unraveling, like, other things that I can use it with. And so, now I found out that I don't really need to do tissue work.

And I say need by, it's not a, it's not, it's not that it's not nice. It's just that it's not forced, needed, a bulk of the treatment on hip FAI, sciatica, low backs, neck, actually, neck's knee a little bit more, quote-unquote, rotator cuffs, radiculopathies, knees, ankles, you know. So, it's, it's, it's really changed the way I've been, the way I've been thinking. And so, kind of following some of McGill's work on, you know, scab picking and first aid and things like that, I created that little thing that you watched the webinar on where, excuse me, so one of my, like, one of my interns had asked me, now my associate doctor, she said, hey, I was thinking, can we use that co-contraction thing where you do around the low back, but for the neck, I'm like, yeah, sure, why not, you know.

That's basically, like, the thought process, I think, when you're implementing care, you should have a reason in a thought process, not just randomly, oh, that, that's where they're pointing. So, yeah, so probably that moment where I got really drunk and I thought the next, there's been a couple times where, where I was like, huh, there, I think one time he's at my house and I was like, hey, what do you think about, I forget what I was talking about, but I'm like, what do you think about this? He's like, oh, IAP. I'm like, what's that? He's like, you don't know what IAP is? I'm like, no. And so, the next morning I woke up, I'm like, I wonder what IAP is, you know, and then I started looking shit up and then, and then I started using other stuff.

So, it's just, I guess I'm curious enough to try to figure it out, you know. Yeah. My question would be, like, I mean, coming from a student that hasn't been on the real world yet, and I understand that, you know, like, systems where you're talking to other practitioners for ideas and, you know, case studies that you haven't seen before, but coming from a student's standpoint, they might see that as very weird. You're making friends with your competitor, you know, you're taking food out of my own mouth. What was that relationship for, and do you see, would you say that it helped you in your own cases?

Of being, of being friends with a competitor? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think so. Like, I don't know. I think it's everyone's own. If everyone's going to do that, like, it's your own tolerance to threat. I'm not, I'm not threatened by that shit. Like, I'm not worried. Like, I know that, like, the people, of all the people, if me and him went out there and met random people, I bet nearly all of them had never been to, most of them not been to a chiropractor that they loved or they're committed to, or even been to a chiropractor at all, you know? Or, like, we'll take it even a further stab.

They've never been to ones like us. So, I'm not really concerned because there's enough fish in the sea, and even our fishing ground is large. But, you know, thinking back to, think of all the friends you have in chiropractic school right now and how much they understand you and how much you get along. And you can talk about life shit. You can talk about pathology. You can talk about troubleshooting. You have so much shit in common. Why would you not be friends with the people who understand you the most? Like, I think it's stupid. Like, we're fighting over, like, 25% of the population here when, I mean, shit, there's so many people to see.

That's a great point. You know, that's what we've been hearing from people like yourself that actually do it. It's always the people that never really forged that friendship with another competitor or something like that would say, don't do that. That's going to ruin your referral system or yada, yada, yada. Yeah, I think it'll only strengthen it. You know, it's just good validation. I've sent him people. He sent me people, too. And, you know, also, too, I guess, so when he actually, when he left town, where do you think he sent his people? Exactly. So, I mean, yeah, we can say that was a threatening relationship, but I see a handful of his people now.

I don't know where the rest of them went, you know, maybe to the other person he's having pizza and beer with. But I don't think it's, I think that we all got to get over that. It's just an ego thing. And I bet if he talked to, you know, MDs and orthos, I'm like, they're not worried about that shit, you know? I bet they're not worried about that shit. So, I'm certainly not worried about it. What are some of the most common injuries that you see at your clinic? God, I've been seeing a lot of hips, groins. Let's call them groins. A lot of posterior hip, which we can call it whatever you want. A lot of low backs, necks, and shoulders, really.

I don't tend to see a lot of hands and ankles and feet and things like that. I don't know why. But I'm sure as soon as I say that, they'll come and burst. But I feel really confident about hips and groins and low backs. I feel really confident in necks. I don't like headaches quite as much. Shoulders, I feel pretty darn confident in, too. But I kind of tell patients on the phone, like perspective people, say, look, if we're really good at spinal and move out towards the ball socket joint, you get further away from the spine, our effectiveness is going to go down. I'm not saying we can't do it, but it's not in our wheelhouse as much.

I did have a patient recently that she was, we did a telehealth, and so she had been, she'd already seen me for other things, and so she just had a lot of confidence in me. And so she's like, I got this thing on my wrist. And so I tested her out, looked like positive dequivins and stuff like that. It wasn't like, I even tested out neck, shoulder stuff. I didn't see anything really related. And so by using some of the, so I used a step four on her, and we did a lobster claw hold with a, she was sitting on a, she had a dinner, like a dinner chair. And so she did a lobster claw hold until her hand was about in spasm.

And then she retested the thing, which is picking up a pot. And then her pain was gone. And she emailed like four days later and she said, yeah, that's my, my wrist pain has not been back yet. And I'm like, well, good. I, I, I don't want to make the promise of the world on that, but you know, it worked. So I don't feel subpar about it, but I'm, but to answer your question closer to the spine and ball sockets are better. Yeah. Carries are like magic, dude. Like they help for a lot of things. Like for example, some cervical pain with radiation to the arm. I've seen people just do carries and boom, like it clears out.

Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. They're good. They're, they're good missing link in there. So out of all of those injuries or the most comments that you see, which one's your favorite to treat? Uh, God, you know, I don't, I've gone back and forth on this. I like, I like groin, but then, then it comes into like, there's, there's a possibility it's true FAI or if it's like low back driven, um, probably the cleanest one is just low back subacute disc, flexion intolerant. Like those are super easy. Um, but you know, one actually I take it. The ones I really like is IT band. IT. Yeah. IT or, or like pure reformist, you know, because those ones don't like when you question them out, like they're not a scent, they're not like a solid, like my back hurts.

But if they, if they're like a neurogenic version of IT band or pure formers, which a lot of them are, they're so easy, so flippin easy. And these people have tried like so many things. So they're like excited. They're like, Oh my God, I've been foam rolling this for years, you know? So those ones are in the, and because they're not extremely disabled either, it's circumstantial based upon activity. Um, they're not, they're also not in freak out mode. They're not panicking. Yeah. So I, I'm going to stick with that answer. IT band, pure formers. So let's talk about pure formers because it's like a huge buzzword nowadays.

How does your normal evaluation and treatment look like? I know it depends, but because each patient is sensitive to certain movements and yada yada, but what's like a general idea of how it looks like? So like how they would clinically look like your treatment, or you can talk about the clinical presentation, then your treatment. Oh, the, the, so the tree, well, yeah. So I guess, well, I guess for exam, I guess I'll start with exam is you just have to, if you clear the spine out and clear the nerves out, then like, maybe you're looking at like an, a local thing. Most stuff in the backside of the backside of the hip, posterior hip is going to be spinal driven in some fashion.

But there, and also too, in case anyone knows, there is some specific neurodynamic tests you can do to tease out true pair formers cases, which if you, you should have on shack lock sometime if you haven't already. So, but in regards to treatment, they're really not too much different than backs. Most of the time, unless they're really true pair formers, which I'll be honest with you. I don't know if I've ever found one, right? And that's what, that's what's great about these cases is they've already explored that route and they have not gotten better. So there it's a natural weeding process, but so usually what I'll go through with these people is I'll establish, and I'll, I'll just talk about the five steps at this point, cause it'd probably be easiest to organize.

So the first step of the, imagine a pyramid. First step is, is working diagnosis, history, and examination. We're all going to do that. All patients, all students are going to do that. And I say working, working diagnosis, because I'd love to say we really know what the diagnosis is, but we don't know what it is until our treatment worked because our treatment was specific to the problem. So step two is finding a first aid or a safety net. This is also for patient empowerment, but also too for, um, being able to cool everything down. Um, I hear a little blip. Are you guys getting that too, or are you okay?

I can't listen to anything right now. Okay. I didn't know. I think it's on my end. It's okay. Um, so yeah, usually with those I'll do, I'll do a, I'll do an opener, a shack lock opener, or I will do a frog's pose or a 90, 90 breathing, or I'll do a, um, uh, end range loading extension or, or flexion. So it depends upon what the examination shows, or sometimes people can, we can simply do what we call position of comfort where say you're struggling to figure out what's going on with this person. And you're like, none of these things are working. You know, all these things I really like to do are not working.

And you finally like muster up and say, what makes you feel better? They're like, Oh, thank God. And they just go on the ground and sit cross-legged. I had a guy who just, he's like, this takes all of my pain away. And I was like, great. Go home and do that 10 minutes a day, break them up into bits. So, and he didn't, and he improved quite a bit. So step three is usually the corrective exercise, your DNS, your bird dogs, your bands, your balls, and stuff like that. Um, usually for a piriformis case, depending upon what I find, there's a possibility that they're, they could be loading onto the side of complaint or away from it.

Um, and if I see some type of frontal plane shift, sometimes I'll use like a, like a low diagonal sit for the opposite side. Or the same side. Or if I see that, like there's been cases where I had a guy recently where he was on, we did a telehealth again. And so he had, he had a positive slumps test and he can keep in mind too. I know this is, it's, it's easy to forget these things. He couldn't bend over to touch his toes and his hip hurt. It was right in the area of the piriformis. And so we could just easily take that one data point and say, well, this is a back because it looks like he can't touch his toes and he's trying to bend his spine.

But if he bends his knees, he can. And if he does a slumps test, he can't do it again. And so rather than just jumping into that, uh, we need to, if you, I had him actually round his back in a seated position. He had no pain or no, no provoked pain anyways. So what I had him do based upon what the theory of what I was working on, what was increasing it and reducing it was for the step three, I had him do a side plank until he just about vomited on the opposite side, right? All, all, all which, like you got to ask the person, does this create your problem? No, it doesn't. It's just hard. Okay. Keep going.

Right. And, and this is just knowing like the confidence of, of what, what's the intention of what you're doing, what's the mechanics. And is it safe for the person based upon the exam? And so, uh, afterwards he did a slumps and he can put his chin all the way to his chest and he's like, I wish I had on video. He's like, Oh wow. He's like, that's way better. Um, originally I did a, we, we tried some end range loan and extension. We tried some neurodynamic openers and they had a little bit change, but in this case, um, a simple side plank to death was the thing that had made him feel better. And then I would, and then to double down on that, I said, are you doing your carries?

Cause I've already seen him for something else. Uh, and he said, yeah, I'm kind of, I'm like, you know, uh, uh, a suitcase carry is a walking side plank. He's like, Oh, I'll do a more, you know? So I guess in my, my thought process with that, he's kind of frontal plane deficient, which is driving his problem. Why don't we just double down on the information we have that made him better and let him do his work. And I don't have the, I don't have the outcome of that one. Cause that was just last week, but that's kind of how I would then progress down a pure formus. But if that was a disc driving it, we might go the McGill route.

When it comes to the exercise selection, you mentioned one exercise. Is that typically how much you give your clients or how does that work? No, I can. It depends. Like I really need to, I really need to, to cool it down sometimes because there you give, you give too much stuff and it just overwhelms them. But I try to, I try to let them know that if I select a first aid from level two, that if they don't do that first aid, none of the other stuff will work. I said, all this other stuff looks way sexier than what you're doing. Like you're just laying on your back with your heels in a chair and a hook line position.

All this other stuff looks way more exciting to you. I know don't, if you don't do this, don't do the other stuff. So, um, I'll usually give them a first aid or a position of comfort or something like that and I'll give them one or two exercises from level three corrective or buttressing or breaking that will help emphasize the need to not do that first aid. It's kind of like if you're looking at someone like say that case we talked about, say if left lateral bend increases symptoms, then right lateral bend would take it away and increasing the tone of the muscles doing the anti left lateral bend, then it would negate the need to have them lean to the right throughout the day.

So, uh, in, say in that situation, I didn't, that's all I really gave him other than just do this to other stuff you're doing, which is like create the cylinder effect of the torso or the core and then just do your, do your Dan, Dan John is work on level four. So, but for new people, I'll give them a first aid and I'll give them one or two exercises, but here's where the system falls apart. If you don't know your exercise selection well enough, and if you don't pick well in the beginning, number one, you lose trust with the person because you're trying all these different things that don't work.

Or the second is, is you have to preface it with what I'm doing right now might not work. And if it doesn't work, don't worry about learning this exercise because you won't be doing it at home. Cause they'll like, they're mentally scrambling about, holy shit, you went through five things. I don't remember all these, you know, or, or you can call them and say, we'll video this at the end. Don't worry. Awesome. So I know you like, uh, you like to say that patients should leave or should aim to leave in steps four and five, which is strength training and playfulness. So how does that conversation look like, or how do you program for the training for people that don't enjoy doing it?

Yeah. So that's, um, I haven't found a lot of people who are not at least open to doing some type of weight training. I'll starting, I'll start with that. Obviously everybody's need and goals in weight training are different. So it's going to be a big mistake for everybody to, to fit them. Like don't fit them into your version of fitness. Um, just get them to do, um, a little bit of, of resistance training in the five-step Dan John ish system. Um, in regards to playfulness, it's that's, that's how they have to choose that, you know, like I would love to go play baseball right now and you won't have to talk to me about it twice, but we're not going to play.

And I really have to struggle to find something to, to do that would, you know, it takes a little creativity because if you throw someone who likes baseball and the soccer, they're not going to like it. They're not going to stick with it. So you have to let them choose into that. And you might want to coach them a little bit through, you know, what, what do you like? You know, and that might not get drug out the first day and neither will the talk about level four, because why, why would you go on a date with somebody and talk to them about what you want your 401k to look like on date one, you know, so just take those steps later.

It, I think it'll naturally happen. Once you get through some silly floor exercises, then they're going to say, Hey, I really want to go back to the gym or I want to do these others. I want to do this. Like I want to go run. What do you think? Is that okay? Yeah, sure. You know, what else do you want to do? Well, I like doing pull-ups. Okay. So why don't we, well, can we, well, around that program and that's probably a better talking point about it and letting them lead into that. The people who really don't want to, I wouldn't force them to, but I would encourage them to be active, um, or like go for walks, go for bike rides.

Um, don't be afraid, like to coach them into not being fearful, like feel free to clean your garage out, you know, organize the garage and, you know, move a bed or whatever they're got to do to encounter some types of loads, but then coach them in how to do it safely. So regarding the programming, how does that look like? Do you send them, uh, videos of the exercises through email? Do you use the Jane app? Do you just send like an Excel sheet or, uh, well, telemedicine a little bit or tele, you know, we can't say telemedicine. I don't know if you heard that. We said chiropractors have to say telehealth.

Telehealth. Yeah. It's a new thing. Thank you. I was informed. I was informed by the, uh, uh, California chiropractic association. Cause I called them asking about something and they're like, they're like, they're like, you know, we can't say that. And I'm like, really? I had no idea. That was the same thing. Anyways. So, um, in regards to telehealth, um, I will like, so if I'm talking to you guys right now, I'll be on a side screen, typing some things out for them and, um, I don't know if I'll continue, I was recording them for their benefit. I don't know if I'll continue with it, but Jane currently doesn't allow you to record, but I, they, I talked to him the other day.

They said they might allow the feature soon, but they're working out some HIPAA stuff. Um, but Jane's is super easy by the way. Like if you go through zoom, you have to go through to create a link and then you have to go to Google calendar and then if the person moves it, holy shit, it's a panic. And, and, uh, did you hear about the porn that's been injected into zoom on accident? Really? Cause now with all this like tele stuff, um, people are like hackers are like, jump like into a meeting, like we could just get porn on the screen and you can't like, so they're trying to like, that's what zoom has a, they have passwords now.

Okay. That's good. Yeah. So now they're, now they're doing passwords. Thanks. Thanks zoom. I love zoom by the way. Um, but, uh, you're mentioned for videos in person. I will encourage them to take the video on their own phone. Um, I've had people who have said, ah, I don't need it. I said, please take the video on your own phone. If you ask later for a video, I will tell you no. And I've had people ask, can you take it on your phone and send it to me? And I say the answer is no. And I tell him like, not like a jerk, but I tell her, so I tell him why I did this one time for a friend because she, her phone was dead and it took me literally an hour to convert the video, compress it and send it in parts to her.

So I'm like, I'm not looking to do that. Just take it on your phone and look, I'll be the model. You don't have to be the model. I'll be the model. We'll be done in two minutes. Yeah. Easy. If they really need it. I do have videos that I've, I've created with, you know, like kettlebell halos and suitcase carries and farm. Like I have all that stuff on a Google drive, which I'll send them a link to, but I really don't want to make more work for myself unless it's say on telehealth, then I can go onto the side screen and say, you keep doing that movement. I'm going to pull these things up for you because I'm going to forget.

Yeah. It seems like you have a good understanding on when you need to be stern with your, your patients. And, you know, it's very easy for a student coming out of chiropractic school to kind of like, you know, bend over backwards for their patients because, you know, we have all this debt and, you know, you want to maintain some kind of clientele base. Where, when did you first decide, like, I need to put my foot down. And then also, how do you know where that line is? Yeah. Um, I still, I still don't know where, uh, yeah, it took a lot of years, you know, like, like I would go in on Saturdays and stuff and after hours and I do all the same stuff you guys did.

And I think when I first finally realized that the value of, of the, only making yourself available on certain days, it was like, uh, it was like, it was huge because I would take Wednesdays off and I still take Wednesdays and Fridays off, uh, except for during COVID-19 times where apparently every Wednesday and Friday is a work day. And, uh, but when I realized that because people would ask, okay, can I come in on Wednesday? And I say, well, Wednesday is my day off. And they say, okay, how about, how about Thursday? And I was like, wow, that was easy. You know, like, I, I think we're, I think sometimes we assume that we'll offend somebody by not giving them what they want, but it's really what works.

It's a relationship. It's what works for both of you. Um, in person for the sternness, I'm not super stern all the time. I try to be like, I listen and stuff. It just depends if they're not listening or if they're not doing some, if they're not, if I feel like they're not going to do something that helps them, I'll let them know. But if they're, if they're like, Hey, I really want to do this for that. And I don't think it's going to harm them. I'm like, sure, go by all means, you know, go ahead. But I remember I told a guy one time that he was, he was probably the first one I was super stern with about it, but we have a good relationship.

So it was, it was kind of like, like he, he understands like my intentions are good, but he wasn't doing what I needed him to do to proceed his, his thing forward. And so he, he came in one day and he had, uh, he had like piriformis area pain. Right. And so, uh, he's like, ah, you know, like this is bothering me and you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, great, cool. Let's try this. Uh, in that case, I chose, um, an end range loading protocol and he came in three days later and he's like, ah, it's just not getting any better. And I said, did you do the stuff as recommended? And he's like, no, I didn't have time.

And I said, look, dude, I'm gonna be honest with you. Don't expect to get better or my opinion to change until you do it. And here's the reasons why I'm working on a theory. You have not done anything to prove or disprove my theory. So my answer is the same. You haven't given me anything to work with. So I'll be straight up. If you don't do this, I can't give you any more different suggestions. I'm going to sound like a robot every time you come in because I'm not changing my opinion. So just do it. And so he did it and he got worse. He got, he got completely ridiculous. And, uh, but he came, he came in, he's like, man, that stuff, it made me worse.

Because again, we have a good relationship. I said, good, that's okay. Let's do the opposite. And then he got better, but I really didn't know, you know? And so, but he wasn't really making things easy on himself or me if he wasn't doing the homework. Yeah, that's remarkable. The fact that communication alone right there, because I feel like if that, that piece of communication wasn't there where you explained yourself and they came in feeling worse, it would have been something much more than, okay, let's do the opposite. You know, you built that rapport and that allowed for things to progress.

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, framing the conversation is always important, you know? Um, you know, like, just like we can say things that are rude if you quote it, you know? Like, it's not quite offensive. And like, when we're, I think when I'm, when I'm talking to patients, we'll let them know that like, we're, we're gathering the information that we have at this point in time to proceed forward down a working diagnosis. We don't know what it is. And I guarantee you any doctor that tells you definitively what it is, doesn't know what it is either. He's also has a working diagnosis. So, um, what you do throughout the next couple of days is going to prove or disprove this theory.

Um, if it goes well, we're going to continue down that route and double down on the information we have. And we know that we know that's getting you better, but if you come in and you feel worse, that's not bad information. That's just information. And it's information that I was not able to gather in the exam today because it needed time to gather. So let's work on this together. If you feel like things are going downhill, just, you can email me. Um, but certainly gather the information for me. So then we can, I can help navigate you through this, but there's nothing really I can do right now to gather that information for you.

It has to be you. So you have a responsibility in this. So I think framing it a little bit better for people and getting them to understand that they're, that they have a big part in their care is, is the important part. Um, and also let them know what the possibilities of negatives are so they don't freak out and they know that people have done it before them. So they know they can get better too. Yeah. It appears, it appears that you, you like systems, you like developing systems, kind of like, uh, the e-myth. I don't know if you've read it where, you know, you figure out what steps you need to take to create a system.

So you no longer, it's, it's basically now automated. Do you, did you do something similar of that sort? Uh, probably, probably not with business. No, um, for, for like structure, like I, I created that five-step thing mainly out of, it was out of need. Um, I had, uh, my first intern was, was Jeremy Dinkins. He's now gone. RSM. Yeah. I got RSM. So that hair, man, I just want to buzz his hair. But so yeah, the first, well, actually he wasn't the first intern, but he was the first intern in a long time. Um, since I started practicing the way I do. And so it was kind of challenging to teach him because I didn't like, there's no, it's just random shit, you know?

And so after him, I, I had, well, I had one. And, um, so that one was hanging out and then someone else, another one said, Hey, heck, can I come in on Thursdays? I'm like, okay. And then, um, you probably met Kyle, uh, Hemsley. Kyle is, uh, okay. So Kyle is like, he's a go-getter. He's, he's, he's pretty smart. He's in Reno now. Um, but Kyle was like, he literally, he actually, he offered to do bitch work, scrub my toilets, do anything that I asked to intern with me. And I'm like, okay, I got to let you do it, you know? And so, and then, and then when he left, I took, he, cause he left in term nine.

Cause he went to Reno. Um, uh, I, I took on his roommate and who, so she's now the, she's now an associate doctor with me. So I had four, basically four people at one time. And so it was not easy and all of them had different learning styles and I had a shitty teaching style. So I created like these, these kind of like, here's a case presentation of like a pure formus. And I wrote down the things that I would probably do based upon like the positions or the, the points on the, I didn't have, there was no pyramid at the time. It was just like, I called it the box system. You know, what would your exam look like?

What would your, um, like none of, none of like the, maybe it's this, no, it is pure formus syndrome. What would you do? What would your first aid be? What would your rehab number one, two, and three B in what would your, what would your strength protocol be at first? Like, would you give them a press first or would you give them something else and why? And so I had these documents up on my Google drive and I gave them access to all of them. I said, look, I want you to look at the title of it and I want you to write down what you would do before looking at what I would do. Because when I had Jeremy in the office, like he's finally, he said one day, he's like, he's like, he's like, I saw it.

Cause he would basically do shadowing, um, for, for new cases. And so he's like, he's like, it was great. He's like, this case was great. Cause I knew what you were going to do before you were going to do it. And I said, perfect. So that's, that's what I want. And so I want them to be able to have a good workflow of what they would probably do, but there's going to be, there's going to be dodging and weaving too. So that was the creation of that system. And then I just kept cleaning it up because now I have another two interns and I think it's just going to help autumn. I don't want to say automate, but, um, it, when you mentioned the E-myth there, there's certainly things I don't need to teach again.

And so I, I instruct, I instruct my new interns to then read a, I think it's chapter six of crisp book, lumbar spine before I even teach them anything about anything else of that region. And we go from low back to hip. And if they, if they don't know anything about that, like if they're like, still have questions about that or they don't have it mastered, I don't go on. And they're like, well, what about like upper extremity? I'm like, no, like do this. I want you to master that because the system is fairly the same, but now we just move it to different regions. With the group of four interns, we never got to foot, ankle or hand or elbow.

So we, we barely got to neck shoulder. Um, but, but now they're really good at hip low back. Jeremy's doing really good. Yeah, he is. Yeah. I taught him well. I was killing it. Yeah. I haven't, I haven't talked to him in a couple of weeks here, but it's, it's always fun. Um, yeah, I'd like to, I feel like it's, I feel like, you know, like even talking to you guys, it's like, when are we ever going to get to see each other again? You know, like whenever, yeah, my question would be, uh, you know, this would be down the line where, you know, hopefully I can do this, but what was the things that you were considering when you were like, okay, I can take on an associate doctor.

That's a, that's hard. Um, you need to have enough money in the bank account to pay for payroll to, to, you got to think of an associate doctor, like a gamble, you know, like you're like your guess you're buying low and, um, you know, they have to be extremely trainable. Um, she followed the system very well. She doesn't have an ego. Um, and she's, she's still willing to learn and just, she's willing to hustle and do the work, you know, we, uh, the hard thing, which you guys are good. Everyone's going to run into is right now, you're probably doing a very good job of promoting yourself. And, um, we've had people already now they're like, okay, what do I got to do to go with Dr.

Sebastian? Well, Dawne Costantino's available. Well, no, I want to be with Sebastian, you know, and it's, and it's, is it's, it's hard to unravel, you know, 11 years of self-promotion, um, even though, and this is why, like the only reason I hired, uh, an associate doctor and I kind of want to say colleague now, I don't want to say associate, it's kind of demeaning. Um, when I hired a colleague was that when I started realizing that, cause when Jeremy was over there in New Jersey, he's still in New Jersey. But when I started, like people had reached out on Instagram about, I'm like, just go to a bunch of New York people, by the way, I don't understand.

Like, I'm like, just go to New Jersey, go to Jeremy. And then, so Jeremy has like, he's like, oh, I got this personal, thanks for this other one. And, uh, you, I could, they're just so happy. Like the patients were so happy. I'm like, well, why would I kind of on the EMA thing, why would I not train? Like I trained Jeremy really well and I spent the time doing it. Why would I not have someone else? You know, so, um, I think when you have a good system to teach, you might consider it financially. I think you got to have enough money in the bank because when it comes down to, when the rubber meets the road, if business goes down like this, like COVID-19 thing, if you don't have enough money to pay yourself, you're not going to pay them and all your work is wasted.

Um, but that's kind of, I think, I think you have to get along really well with them, you know, so I don't know any other way to put it. It's, it's, it's all like, for me, you'll probably see a common theme. It's all about, do you get along with the person? You mentioned that there was four people on the floor at once at some times. Is that including the colleague or do you have her working on different days that you're not working? No, funny. Um, she, California is really slow at licensing. No, we haven't had that problem yet, but, um, for interns though, like we've had, we've had three patients and, um, like two interns and me on the floor at one time.

We've had six people total, you know, plus, um, well, maybe even more, um, that, so my girlfriend, Allie rents from me too. She also does the same kind of thing. And so she has her own room, which she can use a little bit too, but she's on the floor a lot too. So there's probably, there's a possibility we had eight people on the floor at one time in a, in a 400, four or 500 square foot place. Um, but I mean, shit, how much, how many isometrics can you do there with that person? You know, um, probably the hardest thing in that situation is everybody's trying to talk over each other. Oh yeah. So, but yeah, so it hasn't really become a problem with, um, with the, so with, with colleague, with, with colleague Dawne Costantino.

Well, I think what we're, we're trying to do is making it, making it easy for her to get, we'll call it overflow. Not that we're busting at the seams. Although I want to say about before, before COVID-19, I came home a couple of times where I was like, dude, this, this amount of volume is just killing me. I don't want to do this. And my girlfriend Allie was like, just wait it out. Dawne Costantino's going to be licensed really soon. And I said, okay, I'm going to keep the, I'm like this. Cause like you see enough people, you don't, I, I don't sleep well. It's like you, you troubleshoot people or I do. Um, so what I think what we're going to do first is we're going to have her available earlier in the day than me.

And also available on like, you know, people call on Thursday or Friday and they're like, Hey, can I get in over the weekend? I can't wait over the weekend. I wanted to capture those people because I don't work Friday and Saturday or Sunday. So those might be the easiest, easiest ways to get people to, to be okay with the urgency. Um, but I think she does an amazing job, but I think when it comes down to, when it comes down to it, a lot of people will probably choose me and I don't want them to, you know, I want them to choose either or. The final question that I would have for you is, and it's always something I keep asking almost everyone that's comes on here because it's something that I can't answer myself is how do you decide a price point for your services?

Yeah. Um, you know, how much would you pay to get out of, if you were bald, how much would you pay? A lot of money. Okay. It depends on, it depends on the pain point, right? If you're okay with being bald, it doesn't, there's, you wouldn't pay a penny. So I I'd say this first, if you look around at all the people, um, who are practicing around you, just, you can probably go on their websites and, or call their front desk and say, uh, how much for, uh, uh, uh, whatever service. And they'll probably tell you. And then based upon the sets, let's say it's 50 bucks for that, for that service. And if you look at what that person's doing in volume, can they, can they survive?

You know, um, there's the more PBC, the less you can charge and the quicker you can go. But like, if you're spending, if you're spending a little bit of time, you got to charge a little bit more, but, um, it's, it's tough. I always say you can't go, you can't go up in price. You can only go down, you know? And so like, say somebody, say you think someone really needs a one hour examination and you charge like $500 for it. They're like, Whoa, that's too much. You know? And you're like, well, what's going on with you? And they're like, my, my little toe just hurts, you know? And you're like, Oh, I bet we can do that in 15 minutes.

That'll cost you a hundred bucks. How's that sound? Oh, that's way better. You know, but a hundred dollars from like a standard Cairo, like they give away free exams, I think. So that already a hundred dollars sounds like much more than what they're accustomed to, but it sounds much better than $500. So I would, I'll tell you this, I'll tell you what I used to charge. And this will give you a framework. When I got out 11 years ago, I think for a new exam, I charged a hundred dollars and I charged 60 for a follow-up, um, within three months, I was charging like one 25 and I think 80, $85. And so I've met, I've met, uh, new grads who are like, well, I think I'll charge a hundred and then like $60 for a follow-up.

And I was like, you're charging what I did 10 years ago and inflation and all this living expenses. You're, you're cheap, really cheap. You're too cheap. So why don't you give yourself a chance? You know, charge a little bit more than what I did 10 years ago, please. You know, um, or if you're going to make it up in time, you can do that. But if you're planning on spending time and honing in your skills, you need to charge a little bit more. But then that takes the conversation of, of getting deep down to the root of the cause of the, uh, or the root of the goal of the person. You might have to spend a little bit more time nurturing a relationship in order to get the money out of them to pay for the service that you want to give and you feel like they need.

That's huge. I mean, a lot of people always want to try to undercut everybody, but the way you brought it to the forefront is no, you need to know your worth and you need to charge what you need to live essentially. Yeah. You know what? Um, it was something like a, this, this might be a good exercise for you guys right now is tell all your, I'm sure you guys are treating friends and family and extended friends for free, you know, like every student does. They go in their garage and they're just like, I just want to improve my skills. This is for me. Right. Although you're not supposed to treat people at a clinic.

And so you do this for free. And then, so I would just, I would just tell those people, here is a definitive timeline. You get to have me for free. And if you don't use it, I will charge you because I got to feed, I got to feed you. I feed myself too. And so at least it, they understand what the relationship is because I bet a lot of the students who have just exited school, the hardest thing is now, like, like I said earlier, it's hard to raise your price. The hardest thing in the world is to charge the people you used to do it for free for. But also those people, are they referring anybody, you know, like, have they referred anybody, like they, have they given you a testimonial, um, are they willing to be your model on video for the exercises that you want to show your paying clients, you know, like someone's got to pay.

And like, I, I would just, just, I mean, if you want to change your prices over the first year, like say, say the first month, your fee schedule for, for an adjustment is $10. It can be, if you want it to be, that is, that is a window of time where that is your fee schedule and then you change, uh, I guess I'll make sure I'm not doing a legal thing here. You can change, I'm pretty sure you can change your fee schedule. You just can't have two fees scheduled. So, but you have to, if you got to change it, you change it, I believe. But I think if there's a definitive amount of time that you have that fee schedule and that's the service you're doing, just let them know this is, this is when I'm going to do it.

If you have a, like, if I hear it, like I've had a lot of friends and I just, sometimes I'll land to them. Sometimes I don't. I said, look, you've been bitching and complaining about this thing for six months. Now I offered to help six months ago and now you want help on a Saturday at six o'clock in the afternoon after I've had a beer. No, like you make an appointment, like I've asked to help you and you have not, you've not accepted it for whatever reason. And it was free, you know? So I don't know. I had a friend, like very good friend that, um, he'll, he'll, he'll know, he'll know the story if I, if he listens to this is so he had plantar fasciitis, right?

And so he came in, he's, he's a little overweight and like, we, we've been trying to help him lose weight for years. And so I said, look, just, just come in. I'll help you on a Saturday. Like, he's like, I can't, I would categorize people as like Saturday, like Saturday crew people, right? Like, do you know them and love them enough to come in on a Saturday if you don't work Saturdays? And the answer is yes for this guy. Like I would drive and pick them up in Boston if I need to. Um, so he had plantar fascia pain and we laid down on the table, did the exam and stuff. The only way I can provoke his pain is pushing, uh, actually I couldn't even do it by pushing super hard on, on like the fat pad area.

Um, and so, uh, I said, I can't find anything wrong with you. How do you hurt it? Or how can you make it hurt? He's like, Oh, I just got to stand on it. And I'm like, okay, you're 40 pounds overweight, man. Like, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what. Here's what we're going to do. I will, I will help you. I will help you as long as you need for this, but just to let you know, unless you, unless you lose weight, you're not helping me. So allow me to do this. I'll give you all like, I'll, I think I did tissue work on him at the time. And, uh, I said, look, every time you come in, I want you to weigh yourself.

And if you don't lose at least one pound over the week, I'm going to charge you. And so he said, okay. And, um, he did not lose weight. He did not come back. And the plan of fasciitis self-resolved. So it's, uh, but, but at least I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of. And he knew the expectations. So, um, and I, I don't want to charge any, uh, I do really don't want to charge my good friends, but they need to be willing to do the work, um, or else it's just not fair. So I think we got really away from your question though. No, no, I honestly, it was perfect because you brought up a good point where you can use money to kind of force accountability to a certain extent where it's like, I'm serious.

You know, you can spend 50 bucks with a guy that's not serious. You can spend a hundred and I'm here for you. And this, it makes them more accountable. They're more bought into the process physically and literally, you know? Yeah. Well, you know, you, so you bring a good point on this too, is there's, you should ask around and just, just as a cert, just survey the people that, you know, ask them for their problem, whatever they're doing, ask them what else they do. And they'll say, well, I go to this massage therapist and that's like 50 bucks a time. Plus a tipper, you know? And then also I go to the special hairstylist because when I do my hair at this other place, when they bend my head back and they wash my hair, it really irritates my neck and this place takes care of me.

They cost a little bit more though. And so on, like there's, there's various things that they would have done, heat pads and so on, but you know what? They know you very well and they know that you love them and they trust you, but they're not willing to pay you the money they pay people that don't know or care about them. Like what is, what the hell is going on here? So I think if you can talk to them about, like, I think they might not change their mind because people know what works for them, right? Like it works for three days and it, I know it works for me. But people will, they'll, they'll start, you'll start to gather data about, about how, about what your customer is going to, what their mind mindset's going to be because all the rationale of what this, why your friend might go to this special hairstylist, um, you'll start to learn about what your, what your customer is going to also have as their yeah, buts.

Um, and if, and if, and let now speaking logically to them won't always make sense, but let's just say if, by the way, the, the treatment I'm going to do with you right now, it's going to cost less. Uh, it'll make it so you don't need massage and actually your hair will stop growing where it's at. You'll save all the money on all those things. Can you, will you do it with me? And they're like, no, I just, no, I really like to drive down the coast when I go to the hair person, you know? So there's, there's other reasons why they do their things, you know? 100%, 100%. You have anything else? Should I call you Tom or should I call you Seth?

Actually, I was probably, I get Jeff more. Let me go. Okay. Well, Jeff, this has been awesome. Where can everyone find you? Uh, you can go into p2sportscare.com. If you're looking for, if you're looking for those, uh, webinar or things that's, that's where they're going to be posted. They will be recorded there or so that we recorded and posted there after the fact, if you're looking to actually take part of them in real time, I think the first one's going to be on April 18th, we're going to start with hip. Uh, I would encourage you to email me that is info at p2sportscare.com, or you can just go Instagram.

It's, uh, at performance HB, but those are probably the easiest spots. I don't, don't call me there. I don't pick up very often. Yeah. I'll put the links in the show notes to make it easier for people. Perfect. Yeah. Email is super quick. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Can I, can I ask you guys a question? Yeah. We're out of air right now. Do you want me to record? Oh no. I literally just stopped it right now. I don't know. That's okay. No. So what, what's, uh, what's, what's school like now? Uh, we just finished. We're halfway through officially. Um, like right now you mean with the Corona? Yeah. What do you guys do?

Like, uh, so we finished finals last week. I think it was or like two weeks ago, but we started a quarter seven on Tuesday, but it's going to be, uh, obviously all online classes. I mean, same old, same old, just online till May. And then they decided they're going to be like presents or online, the whole quarter. Our boards got canceled. So that sucks. Oh, really? Yeah. It was supposed to be like next week or something. Yeah. It's a unique time for you guys. I think, I think all the schools are having a little bit of a trouble with that. Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, how's your podcast going? Tell me about the great, like, uh, better than what we expected it to be.

Um, yeah, like we've had, we've had, um, great doctors here. Uh, we've been lucky. Like, yeah, I mean, it's been great and we get to learn from people like you. So that's the biggest thing. Yeah. It's, it's our, it's at least for me, this is my form of research, you know, like you could read all these books and do these things, which I do, but there's nothing better than getting an expert in front of you and just ask them whatever you would like. Yeah. I would agree. I think I know that my experience with the actual one, the reason why it continues to go, um, is I just keep learning things, you know, and it seems like you guys have already kind of caught onto that.

Like you can, you can ask, you can get your expert on there and just like bullshit with them. Ask all the things that you wish, you wish that he would answer in the workshop. You get to talk an hour and I mean, it's great. Who's your favorite guest so far besides me? Exactly. Besides, besides, this was fun. This was, you're way more like fun to talk to than some of the other people. Uh, what's your favorite guest? You know, that's a great question. Cause like, I don't want to say this cause it's, it would sound rude, but it's, and it's, but it's kind of true. It's just things start to blend together and you start just remembering key moments.

But, um, we had this colleague who's just now came out of practice. His name's TJ Williamson and, um, he, he's very big into chronic pain and, you know, it's just, there's something special about you think you know something about something. And then he's like, Nope, let me tell you about something. And then it blows your mind. It left me on the podcast completely speechless. And I was just writing the whole time. It's like, I'm not going to get this again. Yeah. That was a good one. Yeah. I would say, yeah, he was very good. I mean, like I said, I was just not prepared to learn that much at that high speed.

And yeah, it left me shocked. Yeah. I'll have to, I'll have to listen to that one of you guys. Uh, I still have you recording by the way. Is it okay if I use this to, cause I want to help you with your guys' podcast. Yeah, of course. Of course. Okay. Um, yeah. So what, um, you guess is, is, in case the listeners are wondering what is, what is your podcast? What can they expect to learn out of, out of the episodes? So basically our podcast is a lot of strength and conditioning blended with rehab. It's basically evidence-based rehab and strength and conditioning. We talk a lot about exercise prescription.

Uh, we talk a little bit about nutrition, body composition. Uh, and we interviewed people like, for example, Jacob Hart and Sam Spinelli. And we just talked cases of how their treatment looks like, how rehab should look like. We talk a lot about pain science too, a little bit. I don't, I don't like the word pain science, but we talk a lot about pain, chronic, acute, um, just stuff like that. Nice. Do you think it'll change into something different? I know my podcast did. Uh, yeah, it has changed since we started, uh, just because it's what people like and we actually enjoy doing it. Uh, and I'm, I'm sure it'll keep changing as we go.

I think the big thing here is our formality is dropping in a good way. We're getting less and less tense when we're talking to people and that, that allows it to be less question answer and more. Let me give you my thoughts and let's see what your thoughts are on, you know, in. Yeah. It's more of a human conversation rather than just asking questions. Yeah. That's, that's good. I think, um, that'll only improve for you guys. I know that with, I heard some of the first interviews that I did and I was like, man, those are not like good. I had someone interviewed me one time actually that it was, it was, it was not, it just didn't follow logical thinking.

It was like, okay, so, you know, what do you think about this computer? Well, the computer's like, it is what it is. And they're like, hmm, okay, cool. So there's this, there's this pig out in the corner. What do you think about this? Like there's, as I had this guy on that, um, his name is, did you ever hear that? I don't know if you've heard the podcast where I interviewed the Canadian guy, uh, Alec. I think I've listened to every episode. So yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm probably gonna have Alec on one more time, but like, um, he actually sent me an email the other day that, uh, he, he, he refreshes me on, on communication styles and interview styles.

And, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to improve my interview style using those methods and getting a little bit deeper. Um, and I, I just had Dan John on yesterday and he, everybody's interviewed Dan John. Like why ask about strength again? You know, you can get a little bit deeper. Yep. I mean, we listen, like whenever people reach out and say, ah, I started listening to your podcast. It's like, man, like first couple of episodes are, you were starting to like, they're bad. They're so bad. Like the questions, everything's bad. Yeah. But like, it's, it's good. Like we're never going to believe it. Cause like you compare that with where we're at right now.

It's like a huge difference. Yeah. Well, I'm sure that, um, when you guys, I'm sure, I'm sure you'll get it. Way up there and it'll really improve. I'm sure. Also too, I want to, uh, not in a bad way. I want to really buy you guys mics. Yeah. We were talking about this like literally 10 minutes before we started talking with you. Yeah. There's, um, I've had on, uh, uh, uh, Jesse Prescott. It's he's Kikoro movement. And so the first time we, we talked on air, I was like, Jesse, your mic sucks, bro. Like, like you're, and, uh, he's like, yeah, he's like, I need to get a good mic. And so I sent him a link to actually sent, I sent Cody the same mic because he does sometimes serial co-hosting.

And so, uh, he got the mic. He's like, bro, this is like the best like investment, $20 investment ever. So, um, cause it makes you feel it's got the base. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. So huge difference. I mean, there's a large difference between our little mic here and the transformer you have in front of your face. Well, you should see all this other random shit that I have. I can't, I can't turn it around. I have this mixer over here. Um, I have this light stand right here so you can see my face. Um, yeah, we got a, we got a boom tower, a second boom tower there, but you know what? There's, I think if I were to do it over again, I think the, the barbells, um, is it barbell strength?

Um, no, no, um, sorry. I think at barbell shrugged barbell shrugged has, I think they, if you watch some of their videos on YouTube, they have a, I think it's called a zoom Z six and it's, it's, it allows you to plug in a good mic with four ports. And I think it's like 300 bucks and it'll allow you to move around. Um, but it goes into a little recorder kind of like this, just to it, just to a card. But if I were to do it over again, I would certainly do that. Um, but, uh, you don't need all the stuff that I have, but I think if you just, I think if you get a mic, you'll like, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Yep. Cause I sound pretty good, right? Oh yeah. Like I said it when you came on, like it's really good quality. Well, so yeah. And I won't bug you guys too much about it, but think about it. Like, so there was, there was this one podcast I listened to that. I really liked the information. It was about coffee roasting, but I listened to it on an airplane. I literally could not hear it over the hum of the engine and I never listened to it again with, with podcasting. All you have is audio. Why not have good audio? Yeah. Right. Definitely. Yeah. That's, that's the next step. I was also thinking like, well, cause we do it in his apartment.

I was just like, I would hope we, sometimes we could put something on the wall, you know, to absorb what you're just talking about. But that's a whole setup, you know? Yeah. Consider that the zoom product. That one's actually pretty good. I would totally do that again if I didn't have all this crap in front of me. Can, as we're finishing up then on my podcast, what would you guys like to, how can people reach you? So everyone can find us at strength.rehab. Well, at strength.rehab on Instagram, you're going to find a bunch of information, just like what we talked about today, um, some practical, practical tips that they can use for basically if they're having some aches and pains on their own, they can't see a doctor.

Um, also just general information about health and wellness. Like for example, like, you know, dieting and exercise and how to select certain exercises. Other than that, we have our podcast and, um, our own website for programming and everything else, which is also linked at the Instagram page. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Um, I will link anything you want in the podcast too. Um, by the way, I guess it's important to note that, um, uh, that, uh, Raul has been on the podcast before. Yeah. Yes. I forget what episode that was. So look back in the archives. I don't remember. But, but you guys are actually pretty good at like, the cool thing is you don't have to edit really any of this.

Like, so you got a good flow. So I think you're ahead of the game. Awesome. Thank you. That's good to hear from somebody that actually has a great podcast, you know? So, yeah, I try to edit as little as possible. Too much work. It makes your life easier. Yeah. When you hear it from your mom, your mom's like, you're doing great. It doesn't mean much. All right on. I will talk to you guys soon. Okay. Yeah. Have a great day, man. You too. Bye. Raul and Brandon, thanks for having me on. That was, it was fun. It's always, uh, it's fun to talk to you guys. So you're good, really good at interviewing, um, very good flow.

And, uh, uh, you're, you're, I'm sure you're going to get better and better all the time. So I think it's a good podcast. Keep it going. And I think you'll find more and more people, uh, are really enjoying listening to you. So, uh, again, everyone go to their podcast. It is strength rehab podcast is on all the major podcast players to my knowledge, um, which is going to be your iTunes and all that stuff. So, uh, please share this podcast, by the way, if you think it was informative, informative event in any way, uh, the only way this pocket continues to stay open is if you guys share it, if you guys share it, then I know you like it and I continue to see the numbers go up and I'll continue doing it.

So please do that for me. That's the best, um, compliment you can give. Uh, and I will see you guys next week. Thanks for being part of the movement.