Types of sports injury taping and when to use each

This is the Performance Place Sports Care Podcast Session Number 39. P.O.P., you've got some pain behind those eyes. Welcome to the Performance Place Sports Care Podcast, where you can learn about sports injury theory, rehab, diagnosis, and how to understand the doctor lingo you didn't understand at your appointment. And now, your host, Dr. Sebastian Gonzales. Hey, everybody. This is Dr. Sebastian Gonzales with the Performance Place Sports Care Podcast, the place where you can go to get all your questions answered about sports injuries, types of treatments, rehabs, and, I mean, I won't leave anything, any stone unturned.

If you have a question, if I don't know it, I'll tell you. If I know the answer, I'll answer it to the best of my knowledge. So, if you guys haven't called in yet, please go to the P2 Sports Care website, and you'll see a section there where you can click and leave a voicemail. That is the only thing that voicemail thing is for. If you're trying to book an appointment, you're local here to my office, don't use that part. Actually call us or email us. That is only for this podcast and questions and so on. So, today, we're actually going to go through some taping, or we're actually going to have Davis Koh, who's been on before.

He was actually in session 33. So, in session 33, we talked about runner's knee, meniscal tears, rehab, and we called it looking for the sniper, which he informed me of that terminology. I like it a lot. So, we stick with that, and you have to actually earn your rehab. That was the whole point of that. So, if you have a knee condition, go back to that and listen to it. It was awesome. So, he proposed an idea that we should be talking about taping because he works a lot with USA Volleyball, and he travels with them and so on. And I know that I've had a lot of questions in the office here about what types of tapes to use, you know, like what type of tape is right for you?

What conditions does it work for? I see it on TV and in pictures all the time. They're using it at the Olympics. I see it at my local CrossFit gym. What does it do? Is it used for the right condition, and how should you put it on? And there's a ton of different types on the market now. You can get a lot of them over the counter. You buy some at doctor's offices, and you might wonder, like, what is the right route to take with it? So, Davis Koh, actually, he is someone that I've bounced ideas with tape off of before, and he has quite extensive knowledge about it. And I like to break it down in that there's different types of taping for different purposes.

Different categories would be used for different things. Example would be if there's a stretchy tape, it might not be used to immobilize, completely immobilize a section. Say if you didn't have, I'm not saying to use like this, but say if you broke something and want to immobilize that section temporarily, we don't use a stretchy tape. You use something that's a little bit more supportive. So, actually, there's supportive tapes. There's compressive tapes. There's cover rolls. There's under wraps. There's tacky sprays. There's corrective tapes, quote-unquote. So, there's lots of different types, and I'm going to put in the show notes here for, by the way, you'll find the show notes at p2sportscare.com slash podcast, and just look up this session number, and you'll find all these.

I'll put links to some of the tapes that I'm talking about here in case you want to actually get some. But, anyway, some of them are better on turf and sand and grass and water and so on. And so, you want to know this stuff. You're going to want to know it if you play athletics and you plan on using tape. You don't want this stuff to just fall off. And, actually, I actually learned with one of my patients that in water pool, actually, she was doing swimming. They didn't allow tape at all. They thought it was performance enhancing, so they made her take it off right away. So, all that kind of stuff is good to know.

So, we are going to welcome Davis Koh back, and if you've done the little finger and thumb clapping, do it right now. Kind of like the world's smallest violin, but do it with your fingers. Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. Say hello to Davis Koh. Okay, so now we have on Davis Koh, and he's been on before. I think it was session, gosh, it was going to be 33 or 32. We talked about knees and whatnot, so this time we're going to go over some taping because he's going to be one of the foremost experts, especially in a couple of these realms. He doesn't love all the taping and using all of them, like he'll probably tell you, just like I don't either, but we'll try to hit mostly everything that we can.

So, Davis Koh, say what's up. Hey, what's up? This time we're not going to have a squeaky chair. Nice. I kind of miss it, though. Yeah, I know, right? It's back there. You can have it. Okay. Okay, so I thought we'd go over, we categorize these things down as different types of tape for different purposes, and I guess we can just brainstorm this one today. So I like to say corrective tape, which would be the stretchy stuff mainly. Then there's supportive tape, corrective tape, and then there's other things like cover roll, underwrap, tacky sprays, and whatnot. I mean, how do you feel about, like we're going to get into each one of those there.

Did I miss anything with like the overall categories? No, that's about it. The supportive tape, I mean, if you're including the traditional old school white tape and what have you. Yeah, that works. I think that's hard to get a lot of support out of those. Don't they bust out of the seams like right when they step down after being spatted? Kind of, yeah. They don't last. They're not meant to last for a very, very long time just for an acute situation, and they need to get rewrapped, rewrapped, or something they can just carry with them when they're being transported or what have you, or something that can carry them for the next few hours.

Okay, yeah. No, I agree with that on the white tape. Like, I use it for a few things, and we'll go into it more in detail as well. But so let's start with first, like not even get into the different types yet, but why do you, why are there so many different types of tape? You know, like what, like is one better than another? Is it for different purposes for you, or? I think it depends on, yeah, there's different functions, inspirations for different needs. And so some things do cross over. So some kinesio taping place will say it is supportive in its own way versus athletic tape is supportive in its own way.

But there's always a pluses and minuses where is a water resistance? How long does it last? Can you use it when they're with different surfaces of the skin? And so there's the pluses and minuses of the right type of tissue, right type of tape for the right type of tissue, right type of injury, right timing of the injury. The functions of the tape, sometimes it's for swelling control. Sometimes it's fully supportive just to not let it move, to protect a specific structure. Sometimes it's designed to allow you to move and do all your activities while getting support of some type of tape. And so depending on the designs or the purposes of it, then you'll grab a different role that most docs or athletic trainers or sport chiros, PTs or MDs or whoever will go after in their medical tent at a sporting event or at their clinic.

Yeah, you've seen like, I feel like after seeing like people's emergency boxes and like the med tents, like half the thing is just like covers and like bands and tapes half the time. I mean, all these different types of tape for different purposes. Oh, yeah. Especially if it's a sport, like the most recent one that I did was working at the NCAA National Taekwondo Championships. And so there was just not only a number of concussions, but different sprains, different leg injuries, foot injuries, ankle injuries, people coming in with things, as you can imagine, with a constant kicks to a pretty hard cranium.

So they have their own sets of problems and there was a whole bunch of different tapes. So if the event is especially where there's lots of different opportunities for some type of contact or trauma, such as the BMX World Cup or World Tour, then they'll have a bias towards certain amount of tape for certain situations versus possibly volleyball, for example. For example, for the AVP Pro Beach Volleyball Tour, they may have less of the athletic tape rolling around, the hard white tape, but they'll have more of the corrective tape that you mentioned, like the kinesiology tapes and so on and so forth.

And that's because, like, I would imagine mainly because the freedom of motion you need of the joint, you just can't restrict it with the other type of tape, right? Right, and the level of it being a more non-contact sport per se, that they're on two sides of the net. The only time they have real severe injuries or things you really want to, the chances are a lot less when someone's not hitting you or physically, but they just happen to step wrong and then they may have torn their ACL too or sprained an ankle if they land wrong. But other than that, it's more rare, and especially when I mentioned the AVP tour, it's on the beach, so even then it makes it even more rare than indoor volleyball per se.

So I think later, too, when we get into these areas, we should, or maybe like at the very end, we should go over some injuries, like just pose a situation where we have a certain type of injury, and then we'll talk about what types of tapes we would use for it. So people get an idea because we're going to glaze the surface on this stuff. So, I mean, with these corrective tapes, I mean, I feel like I've seen so many different types. I wrote a little list down just because I was thinking, I mean, I even saw Dick's. Dick's Sporting Good had their own in there, but there's, there's K, I couldn't believe it.

I'm sure Walmart has theirs now. So there's KT tape. I saw P-Tech rock tape. Kramer had some Kinesio tape. I didn't, Mueller was, I think that was a white tape. But there's more. I mean, like there's another type that, what was the type that you had in your clinic? Oh, the one, the Muscle Aid tape. Muscle Aid. So, yeah, there are a lot. KT, Kinesio Text Tape was the original tape. And, yeah, there's a lot of different brands. It kind of goes to the popularity, the clinical results that they're seeing. And so it speaks to when all these other company giants and taping, sporting goods, stores, or what have you, are diving in.

It means it says something, that something's going on, athletes are seeing a difference. The exact, the exact things that are happening or what it can do, what it's, is still in research, mainly because the evidence base, most of the research has come, about 95% has come after 2008, when everyone saw it at the Beijing Games, when it was on the athletes and it was spread across the world. And then everyone's asking, what is this tape that people are having, this bright colored tape on the volleyball players, the tennis players underneath their shirts? And that was the blow up of research to find out what is it exactly doing, what's the right protocol, how long should you do it, does it do anything, what can it do, for what types of diagnoses and purposes.

But it has, it has been around, especially kinesiology tape, has been around for almost 50 years, so people are usually surprised to hear that. I didn't even know that. I wonder what you, is this, if you got some vintage tape? Vintage tape. A tape hall of fame? And it was originally set up in Japan by a man Kenzo Kase, and so finding this tape that had elasticity built in, and then finding an application, I believe the story goes where he was, he's a, I believe a sport chiropractor, and so he was lifting up the tissues around the, one of his patient's shoulders. He was about to do a maneuver, and as he lifted the tissues around the shoulder with both of his hands, his patients instantly said, oh my gosh, thank you so much, I feel so much better.

And so that gave him the inspiration, huh, I wonder if we can relieve the tissue tension around a joint, around some muscles, would that help? And so I believe he didn't create the tape, but he found the tape and created the patent for the tape for specific uses that he had started to design. And so a lot of the things that had started, and actually, to be fair to Dick's and other places, his, I think the initial idea was that it could be a consumer-driven where they just place the tape on their thigh without need of a medical license or a healthcare practitioner or a sports ATC to apply it correctly initially.

But over time and seeing some of the clinical mistakes where people have actually fainted, and there are specific diagnoses that you really do want to avoid because there are some certain changes, the need for proper application and having someone that actually knows it and also has the medical background to make sure that you have a condition that's safe at the time that you're getting it done for you not to actually harm you. So what are some of the diagnosis that you would want to diagnosis and the signs of that diagnosis that you could avoid, that you want to avoid with it? Okay, so some of the diagnosis might be just your history of renal insufficiency or congestive heart failure, and so depending on the severity of your congestion, so some of these past medical histories can cause problems for the patient.

And if it's, if one of the designs of the kinesiology taping is to increase circulation, it may be overloading to the, it might be overwhelming to the person with congestive heart failure for the heart. So those things you want to look out for, you want to look out for locations, so you don't want to do it over certain burn scars, especially radiation burns. You don't want to do it while they have maybe active cancer or something they just recently were diagnosed cancer-free, but it was only a few months ago. Maybe you don't want something that facilitates circulation, improves circulation. Oh, so it's almost like the, for even like massage, the things that you would, that would be contraindicated for massage would almost be the same thing, right?

Oh yeah, there's a lot of overlap and similarities, for sure, for sure. And including some other things in terms of skin irritations or things that you want to watch out. And the locations of where you put the tape. If you put it in the wrong areas, you're doomed. So your point, he's pointing at his throat right now. Would you, would you make someone faint then if you put it like right on the, it was on the carotid, right? Yeah, so, and that's what we call the scaling triangle. It's a little space between your trapezius muscles and your collarbone. There's a little triangle. There's also, because there's a lot of neurovascular structures in that area.

And people have literally fainted when the tape was applied within the first few minutes. They've literally fainted. And also, you don't want it over your, in late terms, just on your elbow, in the front of your elbow. Where they take the blood. Yes, exactly. And then also at the back of your knee. Yeah. And so that's another, those areas are areas where, again, same thing with, that can cause a lot of problems. And especially after a certain situation, like a surgery or something, that a clot in the back of the knee, the last thing you want is something to help facilitate the dislodging in the clot, including tape.

So, so it kind of sounds like any spot where you don't want someone to press really firmly. Yeah. Sounds like a really bad spot. Right. Oh, including your armpit. Armpit. Eyeball. Groin. Yeah. Unless you're into some waxing, you want to, you know, a poor man's way of waxing. That probably would after about five days, I think we'll wax it off. I heard there's a thing called threading now, actually. Have you heard about threading? I've heard that term, but I don't, I've not, I've not practiced it. I haven't taken any courses or studied it. Oh no, it's for, it's for hair removal. I hope you haven't taken a course in this.

Oh no. Threading? Yeah. Threading is when they take, they take like two pieces of thread and it almost looks like it's in a knot and they just kind of put it over your skin and just like kind of weave it back and forth. Oh yeah, I've seen that. Weave it. Okay. Yeah, yeah. For hair removal. Yeah. For hair removal. That'd be way more effective than putting this tape on there. Good thing I didn't fake knowing it, then that would have been embarrassing. Yeah. I was going to wait to see where you're going with that one. So you mentioned some research too, because, so in the show notes, I'm going to put some links to the tapes as well as some of the research stuff.

Do you, can you think of any off the top of your head that are easily found that we can say, okay, cool. This, this, this stretchy tape is good for X, Y, and Z because here's a study that you guys can look up. You know, off the top of my head, no, the problem is in the first 40 years, it was all done sponsored by Kenzo Kase's company, Kinesio Tech's tape. So again, there's an inherent bias. It wouldn't really stand up to, they just had to show they did something and to bring some type of research to the table. After 2008, there's a lot of, a lot more, but I don't have a specific place, person and study that I can throw out, but.

I'll see if I can find some and I'll put it up there if we, uh, when we put the show notes up. Um, so what about, so in, in regards to each individual tape, cause I know you have ones that you prefer is, is there a reason why you like one over the other, or do you, you know, bundle a couple of them as being okay and the other ones are junk or they're all good or whatever? Okay. So part of it is, uh, the clinical experience also having taken courses and hosted courses from all these, some of the leading companies, rock tape has been in our, uh, hosted courses for rock tape at met the owner. Uh, hosted courses for muscle aid tape, uh, I've been to multiple kinesio techs or the original K tape.

I've been to KT tape courses, uh, taken these courses, been certified in these courses. They have their different approaches, their different philosophies and the, and then did some more research on the actual getting into where they, where they manufacture it. What kind of materials are they using? How are they putting the adhesives on? That all makes a difference in it. And over the time you start, uh, narrowing it down to just a couple and you start trying to stay away for sure. There's certain ones you, I would say just stay away from and certain ones has some strong points and some of them are both good.

It's just, there's a plus and a minus on one versus another. Yeah. I, I, I feel like I've found that some of them stick a little bit better is the only thing that I don't have extensive experience in, in having trying all these different types. I do want to kind of, kind of try Dick's ones though now, cause I know that's what people are going to come in with. They're going to get stuff like that, you know, offline and so on. Right. Um, but for the most part, uh, actually, I don't know if I, I don't know if I told you, I actually had a, um, I had a complication from an, uh, a CT. Did I tell you this?

No. Oh, I have pictures. I should show, I'll show you the pictures later. Um, but it was called, it was called, uh, contrast excavation. It's where all the contrast dye from the CT image gets, just oozes out. It somehow misses the vein and it goes into all the interstitial, all the, all the, all the area around it. Yeah. Sorry, I'm trying to talk. So they get it too. Um, but this thing, it looked like to someone to take a baseball bat to my entire elbow, like inside medial elbow. So I ended up putting tape on it too. Um, so it does look like that when there's certain sections where the tape was on, I think it was on for about two, three days.

Cause this thing lasted for like three weeks. Um, it looked better. And, um, so I know that there's something about lymphatic taping. Um, can you explain a little bit about that? Uh, the lymphatic, so it's, uh, you emphasizing the lymph system. There's a certain amount of stretch attention that you want to place on. When you're doing more for circulation or for lymphatic, uh, to help with the lymph, a lymphatic system. So, uh, with the, with the kinesiology taping, what you also see will be a lot of different philosophies. Some of them will say, don't put any tension at all. Just lay the tape.

Cause there's an inherent 10% stretch. As soon as you lay the tape on there, uh, some people will say, go up to 80%, get a real supportive feel for it. Let them really feel the, uh, uh, the tension build up. Some people will say, uh, depends on the situation or what you're trying to do. If it's more structural, then you'll put 50 to 75. If it's more for, uh, again, for the helping with swelling or edema or bruising or discoloration, then you might want to go, uh, lighter 25%. So there's a lot of different philosophies. Hopefully the evidence base will bring itself about to start teasing out, uh, better protocols, uh, more accurate protocols, more accurate tension protocols, timing protocols, uh, what type of, uh, uh, other types of things to watch out for, what, how there may be some things that might be even surprising that they didn't know it could do that it can do.

So, uh, so the protocols themselves is going to be more reliant currently as it's now as the research, like I said, in the last seven years is 95% is in the last seven years as more and more of that comes about as evidenced by all these companies trying to get into it, seeing that there is a growth, there's a popularity, there's a need, uh, that they will have a more accurate, um, protocol for, uh, the tape and how they lay down the tape and where they lay down the tape for a specific problem. That's why you're probably right. At this time, I recommend highly to protect yourself, protect your father, protect it, whoever you're, or that, or your child athlete that's, uh, might be using it, uh, for pain or for, uh, support that you go to a, uh, a practitioner, uh, for that purpose.

And also, uh, uh, an experienced practitioner is that, that through their clinical experience can give you the go-tos from what the research is starting to find out. Well, I know that there's, uh, so like rock tape is one of them, I think where they put, um, I've seen videos they'll put on YouTube. I don't know. Have you seen those ones? Yes. Are they, are they any good? Are they leaving stuff out? I mean, cause like, cause what's going to happen is, I mean, you know, as well as I do, people are going to see that, you know, I'll stick this tape on there and you know, they don't think much about the contraindications or, but you know, they're probably thinking, well, what's, what's the worst that can happen?

It's tape. Right. And you know, so again, it's hard to, one, one thing is, uh, it's not, I'm not saying once you can only get it done by healthcare professional, but once they see the, the specific pattern, the specific tension that works for you for this way, they can teach you depending on where the, where, where the injury is, uh, teach you or a family member to, to do that. And that way, if it's properly taught and you've learned the right design and what the right tension should feel like that you can't get in a video, then you can self tape. And I think that's a safe way of doing it. That's why, again, having a healthcare professional that can actually show you, show you the right way, not just go off the video, but you got to feel it, understand.

Uh, and I'll give you an example where, uh, uh, one of the things that brought me on to K-Tape over now about, uh, over 12 years ago, almost 14 years ago, one of my close colleagues from PT school, there was an in-service using the original kinesiology taping and they used him as a model for, uh, lateral patellar tracking problems. So basically the kneecap wasn't staying in line, it was, uh, uh, falling off to the side every time for someone that has that type of problem that caused their knee pain. So what they did was they go, the, the person asked my friend, do you have something like he's no, I don't, I haven't had any problems with my knees ever.

You know, he just, that, that was, his was more of a back issue, but he never had knee problems. So they go, okay, well, we'll just use it as a model just to show you how I would do that if you had that problem. So she did that, she put the tension, the tape, the, uh, and he said he didn't really feel like it was really pulling on it. You know, it was like, it was like no big deal. So he decided to leave it on just to see how long it would last to leave on. Cause he figured what's, what's the big deal. I just want to see how, how many days does it actually last? He said, found out it lasted about for him about three days and started peeling, it started wearing off.

So he just peeled it off. He told me that for three weeks, that same left knee that they had just done that demo tape where he didn't have a lateral tracking problem was sore for three weeks. Really? Yeah. Just immediately afterwards. So whatever it was designed because, uh, and I believe that because he didn't have that necessarily that problem, but it was pulling it in a way as if, yeah, that something had happened. And then while he was walking on it for three days. So again, if you don't have it properly applied, uh, for the right problem or the right diagnosis and, uh, have a personal experience and have making sure that someone else can teach you how to do it, uh, that'd be a big deal.

The only other thing that you mentioned earlier that I wanted to bring up was you say some tapes just don't hold very well. And that's why I went into the manufacturing because sometimes a lot of them are, uh, they'll use synthetic, uh, taping, uh, synthetic materials. Sometimes they don't hold very well. Now, uh, another brand will also, uh, go exclusively to China versus Japan or Korea or other places which have better quality control. So, so then each role is, there's less, um, there's more variability. Sometimes that role will from China, uh, that's very cheap, but they go in mass and then they, some roles that you get in a six pack, if you buy a six pack, or if you just buy one role at a time at Dick's may be great.

And the next role, because of the quality control may be terrible and you're just going to get a yes and a no. And so that's happened where, uh, one brand in particular would, would you always had, we're apprehensive. I don't know what tape I'm going to get. Is it going to be the good one that actually lasts or is it going to be the, uh, the bad role? And that would be a problem. All the ones inspected by inspector number 25 are great. Uh, well, yeah, you wrote a good point too, with the, uh, the diagnosis and making sure it's right for the person. Um, I think, oh, I was at Overture Clinic when I was doing the ankle study, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'll just refresh everybody in case they don't know. I did a, I did an ultrasound study with where we would ask, it was, look, it was based upon the accuracy of self-diagnosis. So we didn't tell the patients anything. We just told them, look, if you have, if you feel like you have Achilles tendonitis, come in, we'll image it. And like, I remember at a running group one time, this guy raised his hand, he's like, what's Achilles tendonitis? And I'm like, dude, I don't care what you point at. You point your ear, your elbow. It doesn't matter. The whole point is it's self-diagnosis.

How right are you? And they were only right half the time with that, which makes me feel like things like with knee conditions that are a little bit more, uh, they have a little bit more variety. They can't pick it up. It's not such a big structure. They, they could get, they're probably going to get the wrong diagnosis. So no matter what they look up on YouTube, it's going to be really hard to get the right thing, even in the first place. Right. So it's my take on those ones. Yeah, exactly. And just while also trying to find out. Yeah, exactly. So sometimes doctor internet is not always right.

Or if, if you're going solely on your own research, I mean, I understand, but then, you know, it'd be nice if it's a collaboration. So you, you hear of a diagnosis, you've been checked out, they give you, and then you research on your own further into whatever they had suspected is your problem. Then that makes more sense. But a lot of times when they don't and they just hear a pain again, uh, with, uh, we talked about last time, like even like plantar fasciitis, someone gets that plantar fascia pain, pain in the heel and they go, Oh, I had that pain too. I must have plantar fascia. Well, no, there's like six or seven, eight, nine different reasons why you may have a heel pain.

So just because someone else had it and even for the same back surgery, or even for the same meniscal surgery, no two meniscus surgeries or total knee replacements are the same. Some person can have one and it'll be, uh, uh, the, the complications, the, the approach, the incision, how big the scar line, how, what they did is could be completely different. And even people who've had two knee replacements and their results on left versus right, different physicians, different surgeons, different approaches can be totally different results and totally different needs, even for taping or soft tissue work or rehab.

It's, there's no one recipe just cause you have a specific pain or diagnosis. Well, whenever they come in a foot pain, I just tell them to stretch it. That'll make it go away. Just simply stretch it. No, I can just say, throw some tape on it and then see you later. And then just scrape it and throw some tape on it. That'll work, right? Uh, so you did, you did mention how long the tape lasts cause we're still on corrective tape. Uh, how long is it supposed to last if it's put on? Well, you take care of it and so on. Um, how long do you usually see? Okay. So there's a variety of factors. One is we talked about earlier is the manufacturing.

So if the manufacturing is terrible, it'll probably last you a few hours or maybe a day. Another thing is that people don't realize is sometimes the dye on the tape. So even within the same taping company in the same tape, a black tape, black dye tape lasts longer. And sometimes the blue one they had decided to use for that day doesn't last. It doesn't stay on that person's skin for whatever. So there's a reaction of different ones. So some people, the beige works really well. They'll say, can you give me the beige one? This blue one never sticks to my skin. And I've heard that before. Uh, the other thing is the material that is synthetic or the amount of adhesive and how the adhesive was applied.

And so there are, uh, applied when they manufactured the tape. So that is another thing where some adhesives can be strong. So they'll last longer. So they can last the most, the average would be two to three days. Um, it can last up to five, six, seven days for some people even. And also I think it depends on the location, like in the foot, the bottom of the foot. I mean, there's always so much abrasion or just from walking and stepping on it. Then that'll probably peel off a little bit faster. Just the sock coming on and off too. Exactly. Yeah. And so location is another thing where that all determine how often or how much or, um, what that will, what one particular tape or another, or kinesiology tape may last.

And again, even within variability between brands within the brand, uh, the manufacturing, is it going to be the a hundred percent cotton version or the synthetic version? Is it going to be, uh, how they place the tape, you know, so on and so forth. Yeah. I'm sure, I'm sure there's a ton of variables. Like I, I would have had the short answer three to five unless they have used it or something like that. Um, but yeah, I mean, I don't use the variety of tape that you do either. Um, in, in your opinion too, like with, with taping is, so when, when we immediately put the tape on and the person has, let's just say we're talking about an ankle issue.

Are they going to feel better? Are they going to feel more supported? Like what, what type of verbiage or words do you say? Like, okay, you're going to feel like this, like, should they expect like a magic pill? For the, that's a good question. Actually, I, I want them, it depends on if they're, if they're in like some acute pain or they can't reach as high, let's just say for the shoulders. Then I will ask immediately, can you reach higher? How do you feel? Raise your arm up again. And then how do you feel? And if they go, oh, wow, I can go higher or, oh, you know, there's less pain. I don't feel that bite in my shoulder, that, that sharp pain anymore.

That's a sign. So sometimes if that is the, what we're trying to look for, then that, and is that, is a tape helping? Then I will ask immediately for reassessment. Sometimes if it's just for more like edema control, they had an acute ankle fracture, or not fracture, or like a sprain even, and we put the tape on for the hopes of diminishing or, uh, uh, or expediting the, the, the, the, the swelling that's in that area. Just getting the fluid out of the air. Yeah. Or there's a big bruise like you had with the, with the, uh, I think it was terrible. The dye that, that you go, okay, come back in a couple of days.

Let's take a look and see if there's a change. And so I've seen, I have lots of pictures of where, uh, we'll just go over one area and the rest of the area is still completely bruised, but wherever the tape was, you can definitely see it's lightened up quite a bit. So, uh, it depends. So if it's something like a bruise thing, I say, okay, let's give it a few days. If it's something like an acute, some type of, uh, range of motion limitation, or be able to lift a box or a weight from the ground that used to hurt when they came into the clinic and now I put the tape on or whatever, and I, and they should feel some difference.

If they don't feel anything at all, then in that situation, like with the arm shoulder, oh, it still hurts. I'm not going any higher. It doesn't, you know, it still hurts just as much. Then, um, I may think that maybe taping might not be the, the best effective thing for him at this time. Now that doesn't mean I'll eliminate it. Sometimes I'll try the next time a different pattern and that has worked. So sometimes one pattern didn't really work as well. I do another one and that goes, oh my gosh, it feels a lot better. So, uh, uh, so again, you don't, but you give it a few tries and if your go-tos don't work and again, that harkens back to having a clinician who's experienced in it, give you the best tape for your situation.

If you're a triathlete and he'll pick the tape that has the highest. So you said with those, uh, you were saying with the design, so you try like, uh, maybe like a butterfly and then a diamond and the diamond seems to work more than the butterfly. Yeah. So again, with a clinician having experience in that, having more than one option, one more go-to, uh, then that may, that's another reason why you might want to go to see a clinician that to really see if that's going to work. Cause if it does help, if it does definitely does help in those situations and then you are traveling and you need something to help with your back or your shoulder pain or whatever.

And there is a design that happens to work in a tape that works for you or sticks better for you. That is, uh, that is a golden reason. That's a way to just help save you from having to take pain meds or be able to just, uh, do things, enjoy your trip a little bit better until you get back. Well, so actually I was going to ask you too. So the, so we've been talking about, um, lymph, uh, lymphatic drainage with it and like, uh, we can decrease pain and so on. Um, is there, do they say it can actually decrease inflammation or anything like that? Like, cause I don't know if that's what, like, I always tell people we're not trying to decrease inflammation.

I just, I tell them we're trying to get rid of the fluid, increase the joint, joint motion. Is, is there anything where it would, I mean, can you substitute for like an NSAID? Some taping companies will say, yes. They'll say that the irritation, if the tissues that are inflamed are between the muscle or between the bone and to the skin. And so, uh, what people, uh, need to realize is that, uh, the body, even though we learn it in, even in, whether it be med school, physical therapy school, chiropractic college, or you see it online, how we understand it, where a clear muscle goes to a tendon, goes to your bone.

They're all separate structures. They don't touch each other. And one doesn't necessarily influence another is, is false. It's, there is clear evidence, especially in live tissue and dead tissue on a cadaver. It's all separated because all the fluid, they're dried out. So yeah, every structure looks very clean and concise. But what's happening is that, uh, from the skin all the way down, there is a structural connection for every layer, uh, from the skin to the, to the fat, to this superficial fascia, which is a connective tissue to the deep fascia, to the mop, the lining of the muscle, the epimyosin or the skin of the muscle, we call it the muscle tissues to the, to the bone.

And to give an example, a quick example would be that they did, uh, they had 20 noted surgeons and they asked him on a live person, tell us where you believe the heel bone, uh, begins and ends and where the Achilles tendon begins and ends and where the Achilles tendon from the, to the muscles begins and ends. And no one can, uh, the 20, there was no consensus, meaning it was very hard to tell the different tissues. My point is even from the skin down to your bone, there is an indirect, uh, uh, uh, direct and indirect effect. And so if the inflammation is between, uh, if there's an irritation that's creating an inflammation and an unwanted or a chronic inflammation, and, and if the tissues by lifting the tissues by, uh, by the mechanical pull of the, of the stretch tape, uh, the corrective tape is helping with that, then, then maybe if that is an area of irritation or if the area of irritation is at the tendon being, uh, of your, of, uh, of a rotator cuff, uh, binding down or, uh, getting friction over a specific joint area that it's passing over structurally, then if by theory, if it's lifting up the tissue and allowing some space, would you per se, uh, that that may decrease the irritation, which would decrease the amount or chance of inflammation in that area with movement or with, uh, so that's like the indirect.

Yeah. They're indirect. And, uh, um, I think one of the things that people say, what the naysayers say about the tape, which is fine. Uh, you always want naysayers in anything. You have to question everything. So, uh, it's just, I tell when patients ask me that, how is this stretchy little thin, you know, tape is really going to do anything for me. So I just, uh, so I tell them, you know, that imagine if one, I'll do one example where I'll pinch their skin, the skin of the, uh, on their bicep muscle and ask them to, uh, straighten out your elbow and they can't cause there's just too much pain at the skin level.

Once they get a certain tension and I say, well, is there anything wrong with your bicep? No. Is there anything wrong with your elbow joint? Then why can't you straighten out your elbow? Well, you're pinching my skin and it's hurting. I go, there you go. Or I tell them, well, imagine running with duct tape on the back of your legs from your heel all the way to up to your butt, run with duct tape, uh, do some sprints, run, uh, six, six miles. You don't think that's going to do anything to your running or how it's going to affect you? Is it, you don't think that's going to affect how you run and what muscles you use and how you use the muscles and how the joints are going to, uh, how, how well you can straighten out your knee and bend your knee and straighten out your ankle and your butt.

It's going to affect everything. And all we're doing is putting a superficial duct tape on the back of your leg. So, uh, and that's what we did in physical therapy school. They would actually have, uh, students, uh, the professor would take one student, put him in the back, put tape on his back or his leg, and he would walk out and we would have to find out why is he limping? Where is that restriction? And it was just tape. It was just, he puts a certain tape and they're walking funny. They can't bend over. Their posture is all weird. And, uh, and then we would have to guess because he has his clothes over the tape, what might be the problem?

And what, where is the restriction? And so you just even using seeing that happen where they were walking weird or limping, uh, just because tape was placed on them. And so let alone tape. So to let them know that there is an important, uh, connection skin all the way down to your bone, there is an indirect and a direct connection between that. And there's other, um, uh, theories of like of Hilton's law and other things, but we won't get into, uh, specifics, but there is super deep, huh? Yeah. Don't go down the rabbit hole, but, uh, that, but if you can get those, those examples and those ideas, you can appreciate that, uh, how the tissue tension or relaxation or freedom of taking stress off of a, uh, uh, of a shoulder joint, uh, by lifting the tissues in some way, uh, can, uh, can possibly do, uh, some good things.

Yeah. I, uh, I actually remember there was, there was an odd, I don't want to call it an injury, but it was actually on my shin. I'll actually, cause, cause we're talking about, I'll show you. It was years and years ago, but it was right on the front of the shin. It was tender to touch, but when I was examining it, I, I went about like three inches above it and just pulled the skin gently that lit it up. I couldn't believe it. And I'm like, well, there's, there's no muscle there. It's above the shin and like, okay, I'm going to pull the skin. Wow. What the heck? You know, just, so just seeing that it was irritation just from the skin to the bone level.

It was, so I actually did end up taping that and it went away in a couple of days. So probably, I still don't know what it was. Cellulitis. Sure. Um, on the internet, find out. Yeah. Well, if I ever see it, if I ever see it again, I'll do a whole podcast on it. That was before I had that capability. Okay. So, um, so we've gone into, we've gone through some corrective tapes again, or stretchy tapes. Uh, just, uh, I wrote down some notes just to recap. So there's obviously contraindications. Um, what were those contraindications? We had, uh, things that don't want more blood. Right. Uh, similar to massage, uh, active cancer, renal insufficiency, renal failure, congestive heart failure, uh, recent surgeries.

Um, blah, blah, blah. DVTs. Yeah, DVTs. Yeah, exactly. Uh, then there was make sure we get the right diagnosis so we can learn how to put on the tape. And even if you didn't go back to the provider, you need to make sure you know which patterning works for you. Right. Does it sound pretty, pretty, uh, narrowed? Yes. Okay. Um, so when we go into like supportive tapes then, um, and by the way, everybody, I'm, this is my categorization. I don't know if everyone uses this categorization of taping. Do you, you probably use differently, right? Yeah, it's kind of, yeah, there's a little, yeah, but yeah, it's pretty much the same categories.

Oh, the one other thing is again, for the K-taping, just to make sure that the, the brand. So again, Muscle A tape, for example, uh, again, is, is, is, is not made in China. It's made in, uh, factories in Korea, which is traditionally better for, uh, quality control in certain things, um, and, or Japan. And the other thing is you'll see that, um, the adhesives, uh, the, uh, rock tape is more generally known to have a very strong adhesive. So, but sometimes that can be more irritating. It might be the adhesive is just too strong on certain people's skins. Uh, the Muscle A tape is, uh, the other thing I liked about it was when they actually did, uh, a side-by-side comparison, it was five times more water resistant.

They put water drops on top of each of the tapes, the leading brands. And it lasted five times longer. So those people who do triathletes or swimmers, they love it because it's lasting longer while they're doing their training or people who sweat a lot when they work out, they like that. So that's what I'm saying. Different brands have different, uh, benefits. And some people like the extra adhesive on the rock tape, but they, some people really don't like it. It's just too strong and unnecessary or what have you. It's just too irritating to the skin. Um, some brands like, uh, customization. So, uh, muscle aid is, is the only one licensed by the NBA and a number of, uh, like Pac-12, ACC, SEC teams.

So you can actually have Alabama or whatever, or USC tape or something or, um, uh, Chicago Bulls tape. So in case you're a fan and you want, and you have forehead pain, you put that, uh, you slap that on there. Uh, I had some, but not eyes. Yeah. I do that for some of my patients, uh, who are SC fans and they take that and they're like the hit of the tailgate when they come in with a USC kinesiology. It's, it's, it's probably way too expensive to toilet paper, someone's house with that stuff though. Yeah. You probably don't want to do that. Just find your rivals that are the, uh, um, well, cool.

Yeah. You're right. Different tapes for different things. Um, and by the way, I'll put these notes on there later, everybody. So, um, in case I didn't mention already, you can get all the notes at, uh, p2sportscare.com slash podcasts. And we have all the podcasts listed there. Um, everything up to date, hopefully even the most recent ones, which sometimes I put on in the morning, right. As it comes out. So, uh, but you'll have all these notes and links to it in there as well. Um, okay. So now on to some supportive tapes. Uh, this is just, uh, you know, why we kind of said corrective tape or like quote unquote stretchy tapes is so the supportive tapes, the, I know we said that some of the corrective tapes have the capability of having supportive, but then we're talking about like degrees or, or percentages of it and the firm of the structure, the, or the firm of the tape, the more support it can technically give.

Um, so the supportive tapes would be things like, I guess, athletic tape, white athletic tape would fall in there. Um, Leuco tape would fall into there. Um, gosh, what are the other ones? I know there's more. Those are some of the big ticket items. Yeah. Those are the biggest ones. And they may, they're made by different places. Um, I, I know Mueller makes a lot of the athletic tape and who makes Leuco tape anyways? Is it Mueller too? That's a good question, but I think there's now multiple companies that are coming out with similar types of, uh. Because that, that Leuco tape is sure expensive.

It's very expensive. And I hate using it. Um, do you, do you use any of these tapes much or? Uh, sometimes, and again, there's time and place if, uh, and it's during competitions, USA weightlifting, uh, if there's a suspected, uh, severe injury or a torn ligament, you know, we'll, we'll get into, we won't be putting on K tape or something like that. We'll be getting something much more supportive. Um, the flip side, again, just going back to that, just because supportive, it's got to be the right environment. So, uh, the example I always give is when I'm working, uh, USA beach volleyball and they're on court, which is the sand, the supportive white athletic tape will not hold.

It will not hold because there's too much dirt. There's too much sand around and around their feet. You try to put that on there. It won't last but a few minutes and it'll just get, uh, thrashed. So if they're trying to still play and you would do a medical timeout and, uh, learning the hard way that it doesn't, it doesn't hold. You need a couple of timeouts. Yeah. So, uh, the sponsors love you. We'll use a supportive, uh, tape that has some, uh, some elasticity. So the ones I use is power flex in that situation. It's self-adhesing. I do the same type of, uh, figure eights and heel locks and, uh, and then wrap it all up and it, it will hold, it won't be as rigid obviously as a, uh, athletic tape, but it's pretty darn supportive and it does allow them to go back and it won't just fall apart.

So it's relative when you say if it's supportive tape, it's also depends on the environment and maybe even like a very, just really putting its max stretch with K tape in a watery environment would work a lot better than your white athletic tape when they have to go back into the water or something like that. Yeah, you're totally right. Like, yeah, it does depend on the amount of stretch and, um, like power flex. Yeah. That's, I mean, it's in case you haven't seen something like that. I mean, if you look at, you compare like the thickness of like a power flex versus like a stretchy tape or KT tape, I mean, it's, it's significantly different.

Um, it's actually thicker than, uh, the athletic tape. Um, yeah, but, uh, but yeah, I definitely agree with that when it comes down to, um, I actually, I don't do a ton of game day stuff. So I use a little bit more of Leuko tape and cover roll for, um, have you, you've heard of tab taping? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I use a tab taping style with Leuko. With, uh, from Dr. Oh, no, no, no. Or, go ahead. Uh, I see his face. He just drew that. Is it, uh, gosh. The director of sports medicine for pro surfing. Uh. I don't know. Tim Brown. Oh, it does Brown use, I know, I thought he used, uh, I thought he went with originally the stretchy tape.

He does. That's why he does the. But he does a lot of that tab taping. Oh, I didn't know that. A lot, actually. I learned it in school and then some stuff after post-grad. But, um, so you might be right. I don't know. It was, so he came from the same like circle that we were in. Um, but yeah, the tab taping is nice because you can, you put the cover roll on, although the Leuko tape is extremely, extremely sticky. It sticks well to itself. Um, and, but it sticks well to the cover roll and you got to put the cover roll on because it'll just tear your skin up. Right. Um, but you can put it on an area and then just kind of move it around like a skin tab almost.

And you can find out where the person needs, like say you pull it to the left or the right or up or down and you ask them to move and they're like, oh, that feels a lot better. So then you can actually stick, pull the tab into that direction and get it. So you're, you're moving something. So it's not pinching or so on, or you can, uh, restrict movement. Into a certain range of motion, which is painful, like terminal and range of motion. Right. So that's the way I'll typically use that. But you're right. Like game day stuff. I don't know if I would use that or else I'd probably, I'd probably stick it with some power flex over it.

Or wrap it on top of that. But you know, uh, that actually, when you're talking about supportive, uh, and being minimal, that actually happened in Beijing. Uh, there was, uh, a, uh, uh, uh, international tournament with a volleyball and instead of using, uh, it was, uh, between matches or after they had finished their match. And so they were done, but had a grade two, uh, sprain in the, in his, uh, one of the athletes ankles and just using the tab version rather than having it, uh, white taped up, he felt that almost a similar support supportive, but at the same time, there was a lot less tape, a lot less, you know, just sort of more freedom of motion and also more room to maybe also add on K tape or some of the things to help with the, uh, the circulation and the swelling.

So he felt just almost as good as when we, after the match used the traditional white tape in terms of support with the tab maneuver. But then he also had the benefit of, uh, being able to utilize different, uh, things or even just at least wash his feet, you know, which he couldn't have done with his tape all with his foot all taped up that way. Yeah. And it's traditional way. And with, with some of that, especially the athletic tape getting loose. Like I feel like, um, people, especially since you can't really put that on yourself really well, you know, like when it gets, once it gets loose, they'll leave that stuff on for a little bit of time.

Cause they're, they know they won't get any more cause they didn't come in. But, but like with tab taping or like the, like the stretchy tape, it's like you could, you could, if you were paying attention, probably put it on. Um, but obviously it takes a little nimble fingers to be able to do so with that. I hate that Lugo tape, but I love that Lugo tape. It's a love-hate relationship. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I personally would use the, since we're going out on supportive tape still, I would personally use them with things like I thought was a, uh, like a grade one or beyond grade two tear of something or something across like a joint, like a MCL and LCO of a knee or something of that nature that I didn't really want them to chance go into that range anymore and just tear things to pieces.

And if we were somewhere where we didn't have the capability of a brace and they didn't need to play, they were just walking around, but they knew, I knew they would probably, you know, people with like a knee injuries, they just, they, they tear them up in the bed sheets. Yeah. So it just limits how much the bed sheets will irritate them and so on. Um, but yeah, uh, so that's my interpretation of supportive tape. So let's see, we had PowerFlex and we had Leuco and Athletic. Um, can you think of anything that you would use Athletic on specifically? Uh, I've used the, I've used thumb one, finger one.

Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, buddy taping, buddy taping, um, some things are, you know, the fingers, uh, certain toes, the, uh, again, if you. And it depends on how you're using it. So one example that I'll give is, uh, there was a, a UCLA volleyball player, indoor volleyball player, and he just, he immediately rolled his ankle and he's just on the floor and they're like, and the trainer, uh, the head trainer happened to just see it right as it happened. So he runs over, puts the athletic tape, wraps it up super tight before the swelling can come in and he tells him, Hey, okay, if you can leave this tape on, uh, for 24 hours, you'll be able to play this Saturday, which is like three days or four days from now.

If you can't, you'll be out for a week and a half at least. And so he took like two Vicodins or he took a bunch of Vicodins, a shot, six pack of beer and he fell asleep. He said at night he was in so much pain. He wanted to take that because the inflammatory response is trying to get in there. Oh, it was up in his calf. It felt like it was just dying, but then he kept it on, uh, the next day he, you know, because it was so restrictive, he took it off and his ankle was fine and he really was able to play that Saturday and not have any pain. So again, that's one example where it depends on how you use it, why you use it.

Um, if it's acute, if you really don't want something basically in a nutshell, if you don't want something to move at all or move into a certain range, then the more supportive, the better. Yeah. Well, definitely there's, um, I know when we learned taping, there was, we had to do a practical, uh, eventually when, and when you get, they still give you any, any like a wrist, uh, you know, and elbow, actually we all got ankles, but they give you another one and they always make sure that if you don't do a capital A refill in the very end, then you basically just fail because you, because you don't check.

Yeah. Cause you, cause you can't go, cause you can go super tight on those things and there is no give. Um, that's why like Elasticon or PowerFlex would be probably a little bit, a little bit easier. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different diagnosis, you know, there's an, uh, a lot of your, uh, your ligaments on the sides of your knee protocol, there's a ACL protocol, there's a PCL protocol. There's, you know, just, there's a lot of different protocols, a lot of different reasons, uh, for your shoulder, uh, separations, pain strains, rotator cutters. But the other thing I would say is, and ATCs would probably know that a lot more and people who, uh, use that table have a lot more applications.

Uh, so they still have its time and place. Yeah. For the other thing I would say is, uh, that there's starting to be crossover. So now there is an ACL acute tear protocol with K-Tape. There is some for different, certain brands have, uh, uh, and that have drastically reduced, uh, there was, uh, uh, University of Chicago volleyball player, uh, and she tore ACL. So they immediately put this, uh, K-Tape pattern, very supportive, but, uh, obviously, uh, but also, and then, uh, for, uh, for swelling control and her surgeon said, usually it's about two weeks of the swelling to go down before they can go in for surgery and to, and that's what they're waiting for.

And he says this one, uh, her swelling and her level of what, uh, uh, I forgot what he said in particular, said she, after that acute injury has recovered so fast that I can go into surgery much quicker than I thought I would. I'm surprised. And so again, there's some, there's starting to be some crossover, but yeah. Yeah. I definitely think that, I mean, tape, taping is a whole art and obviously you can have many different types, but man, if you're, if you're good at taping, you can, I mean, you're quick, you can get that stuff done fast. Um, and you can just, just see the amount of like competency or like, uh, or confidence I've seen in some of like the, the people treating at events just with tape.

Gosh, they're good. Oh yeah. You can tell a good one from someone still fumbling around. Yeah. Uh, the other thing is I wanted to say real quick about the contraindications is one is if you don't know what you're doing, sometimes they always want to stretch the tape, the kinesiology tape, the, uh, and less is more in general, but also if you're doing it in the wrong direction, one will facilitate a muscle to work harder. And if that muscle is the one that happens to be strained or partially torn, you're just facilitating it to work extra hard. So now you're going to hurt it by putting the tape on if it's doing what it's supposed to.

And some of the other things that, uh, uh, in similar like is that it can also be for neurological rehab balance. And that's why when you have, uh, something, uh, some type of sensation on your skin, it gives your body a better, uh, sense of proprioception, which are just, are just senses of where you, your leg is in space. That's why they, you see a lot of people with compression shirts or you see NBA players like Dwayne Wade or whatever with the long compression pants underneath their shorts. They did some, uh, study where, or some, where they had, uh, it might even, uh, they had, uh, the athlete, it was an NBA athlete, uh, jump and they did a vertical.

They had him wear the compression pants with the feedback of his thighs, his calves, uh, just by having something, uh, tight around it. And he jumped two inches higher. Oh, cool. And so they're like, that's why you're starting to see a lot of them wear those long pants because they're, uh, but the idea is, uh, if this, if the tape can also give you that sense of kinesthetic awareness and give your brain better sense, then maybe it can help with a prevention of a sprained ankle before it goes off the deep end and you've already sprained it or, um, or performance wise. And that's why there's certain sports actually, they list kinesiology taping as a band performance enhancing, which is, which is now even giving it some more credence that they actually feel like it's helping them, which, uh.

Well, I've, I've had a, I remember there was a water polo player that I had, I, I put it on for her shoulder and it was, she had a, she had a thing going on, um, and they kept taking an offer at the competitions and, um, I had no idea. Yeah. She didn't have any idea either, but they kept saying, no, you can't have performance enhancing. Performing. Exactly. Uh, uh, so really the last category we have is, uh, compression, which we kind of already talked about. Um, so you already talked about, uh, the compression and jumping and so on. And so I don't want to spend too much time on that. And by the way, like a power flex or an elastic on that can be used, um, like that.

And, and there's also not for, not for jumping, but, um, but for like more of a compression style and so on. And, and all these tapes have their, um, they do have some support. They have some corrective features. They have some compression. They have a lot of stuff. So I, I guess I probably shot too high for the stars with compression. I'll just X that one off there. Um, uh, a couple more things on the list before we close out on it, but, uh, cover roll. I, I talked about that with, uh, some tapes you don't really want on your skin that much. Uh, Leuco tape is one. Athletic tape too. That really bothers people, right?

Absolutely. Um, but they're two different types. There's cover roll and there's, wait, so what is the, I forget, what's the foam one with the athletic? What do we call it again? It's like yellow and purple and pink and, uh, it's a foam pre-wrap. Pre-wrap. Yeah. So pre-wrap. Um, so if you, and a guy's doing it by an athletic tape, you should probably get some pre-wrap too. Um, and last is sprays. Uh, and I know that Davis Koh is speaking about, um, it's sticking on some stuff sticking on people and not. Do you have sprays? Have you used sprays? Sometimes. And so sometimes I'll use a spray. Uh, sometimes the athlete or the patient will want it.

Uh, sometimes the, and even for not for any type of tape, you can even use, uh, they'll use that for additional support for the kinesiology taping, uh, to stick on or last longer because of whatever event or they need it to last a lot longer than, uh, whatever the adhesive that's already on there. So, uh, there's applications for that, uh, uh, time and place situation, what are they doing? What are they going to do in the next day or two? What are they going to do in the next few hours? Mm-hmm. All plays into and how well their skin can handle that, uh, the, the, uh, sticky spray to help with that.

Um, so yeah, I wanted to actually, uh, I know I had a, I tell a story about a patient that I had that, uh, he's, if he's listening and probably knows that it's him too, he'll, he'll probably love this story. But, um, so he would come in and he was coming in for like neck shoulder stuff. Um, but you know, he came in for on and off a couple of years and like, you know, you'd see him like, we'd shoot the shit about like fans football and whatnot. And finally I asked him like, dude, how come you have tape all over your calves and, and like your, both your thighs and sometimes your elbow. And I remember it was half peeling up so I could tell it's been on there for like a week or more.

And he's like, I don't know, it just kind of, kind of feels better. I'm like, dude, you've been wearing this tape for like two years. You need, you need to do something about this stuff. So, um, I, I think there's something to like people using this as a crutch. Um, I'm sure you've had them too, right? Absolutely. The whole purpose of this is to bring them to independence. So it's, it's a, it's a, just like with the treatments that you get for, for a chiropractic or a physical therapy or a certain medication or a certain anti-inflammatory, uh, steroid shot or whatever. It's not to be dependent upon that medication.

Don't be dependent on that back brace. Don't be dependent on that tape. It was to bring you to independence that you don't need anything. And that is the goal, whether to help you with your sport or your exercise, your movement, your pain relief, these things, including tape is the, to bring you to independence, not bring it to dependence. And so, uh, if they're using it for dependence and that's just as bad as depending on certain shots or depending on medication, uh, unduly. And all these things are time and place and not that things can flare up again months later and that, you know, and you're dealing with it or, uh, that, that's, that's a different story as it comes up.

But, you know, when they're just kind of on the daily, you know, doing something that becomes a problem. Yeah. I find sometimes it's a red flag when people have told me, not necessarily only about tape, but like even other treatments are like, you know, can you, can you put tape on this right here? I'm like, well, how come? And they're like, well, cause it really works for me. I'm like, well, how long you done it? They're like two years. It's like, well, I don't think it's working for you. There's something else going on here. Can we, I mean, I'm okay with putting tape on you, but can we, can we please get to the root of this thing?

Yeah. Um, totally. Well, cool. Uh, so. Oh, and, and when people talk about how, uh, one of the things the, to the extreme is like you're talking about your friend, there can be just an extreme with taping. I've seen some of those patterns and designs. It's just, just all total body looks like a total body tat and they're getting all creative with it. And sometimes it just goes over the deep end and the creation is just, there's no purpose to it. Or just even if they think there's a purpose is just when you layer five different designs on their back at the same time, I kind of question it as well.

And that's where you see some of those funny, uh, Instagram pics of just people taking, even taping to the whole net, stupid level. I was, I almost wondered, I look at, I look at their tape and I think, I think it based upon like the foot, I'm like, how much did you pay for this outfit right now? I mean, cause it's not like, it's not the super cheap. Um, well, good. I think we got through a lot today. Um, so, uh, doc, how does everyone reach you? I know that we did the last podcast, but what's your, what is your email? What's your website? What's your phone number? Okay. So my website is www.kohpt.com.

K-O-H-P-T, co-P-T.com. Co is my last name. And then you can reach me at Davis at copt.com. If you have any questions or concerns or, uh, about anything discussed today or even disagreements, I welcome to hear, uh, the other side of things. And I'm always open to, uh, learning from other people and hearing their side as well. Yeah. Um, and, and also too, I know that, uh, we have had, I've had a couple, uh, students for, for, uh, sports medicine students contact me and say they've listened to the podcast. So I know you do educational tools too. Right. Uh, can you tell us about co-ed, co-ed you? Oh yeah.

So, uh, there's another site that we have for continuing education. Education is also for, uh, people in grad schools for, uh, to become an athletic certified athletic trainer or, uh, uh, chiropractic colleges, MDs, uh, doctors of osteopathy, uh, PTs, PTAs, OTs, and so on and so forth. And, uh, it's designed for, there's a number of different courses, including, uh, a review on what will that was recently approved by the California physical therapy board, uh, course on kinesiology taping, but it's more of a review of all these, uh, tapes, not just one in particular and the benefits, the pros and cons of it.

There's also things of using, uh, the new trendy types of, um, uh, of, uh, soft tissue work and like the instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization, ISTM. And we have a course on that again, talking about the different brands, not saying one brand is the best to only do this. And this is the only way you're going to do it, but also talking about every brand. So the, the consumer, the, the, the student gets a full, uh, uh, understanding of ISTM in general, kinesiology taping in general, and why we, uh, uh, use one or the other and, uh, protocols from my own clinical experience, but as, as well as, uh, whatever latest research is out there.

Um, and also, it also entails like, uh, self-defense for healthcare professionals, active shooters. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. Uh, so those are done by, uh, the ex Navy SEALs who, who job was to, uh, to in the Navy SEALs training for new recruits is to treat, uh, teach them the hand to hand situations. And that was secretly contracted by the government for the last 30 years. And only in the last couple of years was it, uh, uh, able to be spread to, uh, teach, uh, civilians. And so we use that and a lot, uh, the instructors are very, very nice people. You wouldn't believe that they were ex SEALs, but very, very nice people.

And it has nothing to do with punching or kicking or kneeing and people scratch their heads. Well, how are you going to defend yourself? It's a very unique way and it's designed for that, uh, 30 second battle, not designed to get into a ring and spar for four or five minutes. It's not like that at all. So, well, wasn't it, you said the stat was like one out of four healthcare providers is attacked in a, in like a narrow hallway or something. Oh yeah. Well, yeah. I think, uh, some of the stats will, depending on, uh, which governmental stats that you read, uh, and it's actually about 70% will be attacked at least once, whether it be a nurse or, uh, uh, therapist or an MD or, and even as recently, and they also talk about different weapons or things to watch out for, even signs of, of, uh, potential future person.

That's another sign. Uh, uh, and it's not just the patient. It could be an angry wife, angry husband, angry father, an angry, uh, boyfriend or an estranged, uh, boyfriend or father that happens to be, uh, in a situation. So, and you were just caught in the middle of it and he's just shooting people around. So a lot of the collateral damage, actually more, more collateral, more people die as quote unquote collateral damage than the actual person that they're trying to kill. So examples of those people that go to the school and they shoot a few students, they weren't meaning to shoot to get to the teacher who was their estranged ex-wife and so on.

So, so just seeing the signs. Um, so they have that, even that for healthcare professionals, how to protect themselves. And also if there's any of those patients that have schizophrenia or any of those, or trying to sexually harass or advance, there's ways to soft restraint them without actually having to hurt another patient, um, in that situation or if they're incapacitated mentally. Definitely. We don't want to engage if we don't have to. Exactly. So it was just a comprehensive, uh, courses of different avenues, aspects of healthcare of, and, uh, and so things like that. Sometimes they can be done for the, uh, the, uh, uh, non-health professional field like the self-defense, but, uh, um, but yeah, a lot of these are all designed for different techniques and how to help from different fields.

So I'll put a link to that then in the show notes too. Yeah. K-O-H-E-D.com. Co-ed.com. Okay. C-O-H-E-D.com. K-O-H. Sorry. K-O-H. I know. Don't leave them wrong now. I'm, I'm staring right at your name tag on your shirt and I can't tell you how many times I've been to your office. I'm pretty sure I can get this right. Sabotage. Also too, I was curious, do you have videos on taping? I do. Uh, we are making some new videos, uh, with more advanced protocols and more updated protocols for rib sprains, pains, ACL, acute ACL injuries, uh, frozen shoulder, um, increased circulation. So there's just a lot of different, uh, versions.

We're making new ones. And especially when the, by the time the classes start rolling out, they will be, uh, videos available to those that, um, uh, take the course. Again, I don't want to, I, I may show samples of it, of any of these techniques, but I, like I've already said before, yeah, we got to know, yeah, you got to know. And then the practitioner needs to have the courses to understand for themselves and to be able to know that they taught, uh, they were applying it properly and looking at the contraindications for any of these techniques and then be able to share that with the patient and, and, and do it and then go from there.

So, but we will be having videos. And if you have, you have, if, if you have some that are like samplers, I'd love to link to that as well. I'll put it in the notes. Um, well, cool. Then I guess we'll, we'll close this one out and then, was there anything you want to add? No, uh, had another great time. Yeah. Good, good times in this little closet. Well, cool. Uh, well, thanks for coming on. I'll close the show out and then, uh, that's about it. Cool. So everybody, so that was Davis Koh. Uh, he is a doctor of physical therapy. Again, he's in Irvine, California, um, as well as one more office.

Uh, so Irvine, if you don't know where it is, uh, it is, uh, kind of in the heart of Southern California. So if you're in the area, go, go ahead and visit him. He's got a good office and everything going really well down there. So, um, if you want to ask a question specifically that I need to answer on air or you want one of the experts to answer, we can drop it in. And so just go to my website, p2sportscare.com. And right there on the front, there's a voicemail button, which you can leave all the information. You think you had about a minute and a half state your case and put as much, as you possibly can in there and make, make it something so we can talk about.

Cause if you say, I have pain, goodbye, we won't be able to say hardly a thing about it. Cause we don't know where it's at, what it is and so on. Um, by the way, if you have not explored the website yet, we did a huge redesign earlier this year and I'm still doing some now, um, trying to make it the most comprehensive site with information on all these different types of condition we've talked, we've talked about on the podcast right there, your fingertips. So go through there, hit the start now button, go through and self-education. Self-education has all these little dots on all the, on these athletes, look at a hip on a runner.

And then it's about seven different of the most common types of hip injuries you'd see as a runner, as well as some of the rehab and treatments that we use here. What is it? How does it happen? And everything you're ever going to want to know about it before you start actually going in and getting some rehab done. So I put that up for you guys, for you guys to use as a resource. So please, please, please use it. Um, and I think that's it. So I'll talk to you guys soon. I'll talk with you soon next week. Again, on Wednesdays, we release a podcast all the time. So go onto iTunes through that podcast link on the website and subscribe and give me a review and five stars.

If you liked it, talk to you guys soon.